Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?

Subject: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Alec
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:28 AM

This thread is not intended to be controversial or inflammatory.
I am simply somebody who does not "get" "Blowin' in the Wind".
I know these are not original observations but to my ears it is simply a list of rhetorical questions culminating in a phrase that is so vague & imprecise that it could mean whatever you wished it to.
And yet it seems to hold a special place in the affections of a great many people.
Is this because of the way it was picked up by Civil Rights movement, or is it because of some particular merit of the song which I have failed to notice?
This is a genuine enquiry.I would appreciate any & all views on the matter.
Over to you.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: John O'L
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:49 AM

"How long?" is a common enough question among those hoping for a better world. The point of the song is that there is no indication as to how long it will take before a better world arrives.

I think it works well.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 04:26 AM

You have to put it into the context of the early 1960s, when the Civil Rights movement and anti-war protests, etc., were gathering momentum. At the time the song (although not the only one of its type) created quite a stir, because of the questions it posed. Maybe nowadays some of the words may mean less than they did then, because things might have moved on in the past 40+ years (though some might say not as much as they would have liked).

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Alec
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 07:59 AM

All true & valid. But...
Going with what you say John O'L,this was also incorporated by Sam Cooke into his,slightly later, song "A Change Is Gonna Come"
This song was (IMO) more powerful & more precise than "Blowin' in the wind" & yet didn't seem to hook the public imagination to anything like the same degree. Was that in spite of its precision or because of it?
I recall one appreciation of "Blowin' in the wind" that concluded that the "answer" that was "Blowin' in the wind" was the stars and stripes.I think (possibly wrongly) that this is a misinterpretation but I feel that this is a song which lends itself to misinterpretation in a way that "A Change is Gonna Come" or The Internationale or,for that matter,"America,The Beautiful" do not.
Precision does not in itself prevent misinterpretation,here in the U.K. it is not uncommon to hear Christians or Conservatives sing "Imagine" though it is usually painfully obvious they are not thinking about what they are singing or why they are singing it.
"Blowin' in the Wind" would probably sound less anomolous,which is possibly why it mystifies me.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,Thomas
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 08:11 AM

Blowing in the Wind can be sung by opposite factions to their own satisfaction which makes it a weak song in my opinion. Its strength lay not in the words but in the melody which was taken from 'No more auction block' sung to great effect by Paul Robeson, a great anti slavery song.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 08:16 AM

I once heard somebody (Clive James, I think) say that this song contains one of the most beautiful lines ever written followed by one of the most crass:

How many miles must the white dove fly, before she sleeps in the sand,
How many time must the cannonballs fly before they're forever banned.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Stower
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:51 AM

I would have thought 'The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind' means 'The answer cannot be known, cannot be grasped, just as the wind cannot be grasped and we cannot predict where it will blow'. I would have thought this would be very meaningful in the context of 1960s civil rights, with people fighting hard for and against things with no definite time of achievement to look forward to.

Surely the thing about a lot of great art is that it is multivalent and is open to many applications, just as much traditional music is.

One other thought. Bob is Jewish, as everyone knows. In both Hebrew and Greek the word for wind also means breath and spirit. So the answer is in the wind, our breath, in the spirit. But I may just be trying too hard here!

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:54 AM

I always looked at it as an incredibly personal song. The questions are what we should be asking ourselves and finding our own answers. The questions are not rhetorical or being asked of others.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:57 AM

I always thought that "the answer is blowing in the wind" meant that we would soon find out the answers, in other words, things were about to happen that would make the answers clear, the governments' policies would soon come home to roost, etc. Maybe some of them were answered, but others maybe not (so far).

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 10:27 AM

My father (who was even less interested in Bob Dylan than I am, which is saying something) always thought it was an American rah-rah patriotic song and it was the US flag that was meant to be blowing in the wind and would be the answer to everything. The song is vague enough that, from what we had to go on in New Zealand when it came out, he could perfectly well have been right.

BTW, I can't think of a suitably insulting phrase for the US flag, along the lines of "The Butcher's Apron" for the British one - surely somebody's thought one up?

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 10:33 AM

The song has nothing to do with flags or patriotism or religion. It is an anthem of a generation in the US that changed the country and the way it looked at civil rights. If you weren't there you will never understand what it says or what it means.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Louie Roy
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 10:54 AM

I came across an article that stated this song was actually written by a negro in 1863 during the civil war and if you listen to the words they all fit with that era.Whether this is fact or fiction is what you want to believe.I myself believe it did originate at that time due to certain phrases such as (How long will the cannonballs fly)(How long will people exist before they are allowed to be free)(And the answer my friend is blowing in the wind)

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 10:56 AM

But here's a starter: "How many roads must a man walk down, before you can call him a man?" was first sung in an era when men of one segment of the American population were routinely addressed as "boy" by another segment of the population ...

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:02 AM

(My observation was intended to directly follow GUESTMark's - Louie Roy got the jump on me - with his, um, extraordinary hypothesis).

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:12 AM

The song has nothing to do with flags or patriotism or religion. It is an anthem of a generation in the US that changed the country and the way it looked at civil rights.

I agree. It was anti-establishment rather than patriotic. Listening to some of Dylan's other songs from that era (e.g. Masters of War, With God On Our Side) makes it clear he was no waver of the stars and stripes.

Maybe the wording of Blowing in the Wind was deliberately vague for that reason - rightly or wrongly, he may have believed he had to be careful what he said. He may have thought that if he had been too direct in his criticisms, the US government would not have approved and might have found a way to shut him up.

(I have no evidence for these comments, it's just speculation on my part)

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:23 AM

Also I think it should be noted that the song had a lot more of an impact the first 500 times you heard it. After that it can wear on you a little - at least that's my opinion. The fact that it's an easy song to perform was both a good and bad thing.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Bee
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:24 AM

I would expect part of its popularity, aside from the sentiments, is the fact that both lyrics and melody are very easy to learn and remember, lots of repetition, resulting in many people who don't make any effort to learn songs at all being able to sing this one.

I'm amazed some people thought the 'answer' was the American flag. If the song were written by a Canadian, I can't imagine anyone identifying our flag as 'the answer' to anything.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:31 AM

It sure made attending church more enjoyable when it and other topical songs were sung to guitar accompanyment during church service as a contemporary update to the usual hymns.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:32 AM

It is after a vindaloo

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:33 AM

"If the song were written by a Canadian, I can't imagine anyone identifying our flag as 'the answer' to anything."

Except to the question: What's that faded, raggedy red and white thing hanging up above the gas station - right beside the stars-and-stripes?

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:38 AM

I can vaguely remember a 1960s TV comedy sketch in the UK about a protest singer being interviewed (might have been Benny Hill, but I'm not sure?). Some people frowned upon them because of their unkempt appearance, and I think the interviewer asked if it was true the singer never washed. His reply was "The answer is blowing in the wind...". Anyone remember it?

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:49 AM

Like Alec who started the thread I do not mean to be accusatory or inflammatory. But I really think if you don't 'get' the song it's because you either have never had injustice weigh on you, or you are not an empathetic person, not that there is something faulty in the song.

The line quoted above "How many roads must a man walk down, before you can call him a man?" I guess you have to feel in your own mind what it's like to go to WW II, return, be a responsible adult, and have people still think they can call you 'boy', and wonder how blessed long this must go on.   If you can't relate, I guess you can't relate, but I can't see tearing up a beautiful moving song over it.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:05 PM

Like the song or not, I can't see how anyone can say that those questions aren't still waiting for an answer. Poverty, oppression, repression, violence, war - they're all still with us, even when the forms change and the victims change too.

The Stars and Stripes as the answer blowing in the wind - the thought of anyone imagining that was what Dylan was meaning is really bizarre.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Alec
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:39 PM

Hmmm,a lot of interesting views.Reading around the subject it transpires that,amongst others,Pete Seeger,Tom Paxton & Dave Van Ronk all tended to a view similar to my own in regard to this song.
Ian Pittaway it may be that you are, in your own words,"trying too hard" but it is a very intriguing assertion that makes a lot of sense & would not be out of character for Dylan.
Guest,Mark I think if your hypothesis was correct the song would not have endured for so many years in so many countries.
Guest 11:49 I remain unconvinced.It is not for me to say wether I am or am not an empathic person but I do have more direct experience of injustice than I would wish.
Just to clarify I don't think Dylan intended "The Answer" to be interpreted as "The U.S. Flag", but rather this interpretation could be logically arrived at.(Worth remembering that Dylan later showed himself quite capable of adopting Ultranationalist positions "Slow Train Coming" being merely one example)

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:56 PM

"Guest 11:49 I remain unconvinced." What is it, exactly, that you are "unconvinced" of?

As for it being the U.S. flag "blowin' in the wind", I go further than McGrath: that interpretation is BEYOND bizarre ...

As for the views of Pete Seeger et al ... it's a well-known part of the Dylan story that he turned out something of a disappointment to the lefties, by popularizing such images as that of answers blowin' in the wind, as opposed to answers being spelled out in political pamphlets ... Unfortunately, for those who share the outlook of those particular detractors, Dylan was and remains a poetic - well, some would say 'genius', and who am I to quibble?

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:01 PM

I don't think it is possible for anyone to imagine what this song sounded like it 1962 if they weren't there then. I'm lucky, I heard the Dylan version before the Peter Paul and Mary sickly cover. It was absolutely rivetting to hear him belt that out, young and fresh. But now, well it's like hearing a jazz band playing "When the Saints Go Marching In". It's a bit tired.
As to what it actually meant...well, what's that got to do with anything?

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:03 PM

My personal view is that Bob was,you know, like , trying to tell us that he felt that the answer was,as it were,sort of,well----"blowing in the wind "---- you know ?? Kind of ??

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:21 PM

"Logically" it could have been a US flag, or a Soviet Flag, a UN Flag, any flag you cared to name. Just because something is logically possible doesn't make it reasonable to think it's true.

But there is something flag-like about the song - like a flag it is pretty unspecific, it takes its meaning from the way its used, and from the meaning the people using it give to it.

That's not a criticism, its how certain types of songs are, and its part of their strength. In principle there's nothing in a song like "We shall not be moved" which would get in the way of it being used by hardline segregationists, with minimal adjustments to the words customarily sung.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:33 PM

(McGrath: well said!).

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Alec
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:23 PM

I remain unconvinced that an inability to see great merit in this song is becausse of a lack of empathy or direct experience of injustice.It transpires that amongst those of us who don't rate this song too highly we must number,er,Bob Dylan (who dismissed it as a "ten minute knock-off")McGrath Of Harlow your flag analogy does work but "Here we go,here we go,here we go" worked just as well for the miners during the 84/85 strike.Greg must admit I was in primary education during the late Sixties/early seventies every student teacher we got thought it would be "sweet" to teach us this song,every one of them thought they were the first to have had this idea.It is possible that my own perception of this song may have been coloured by this experience.
bubblyrat,that's a very intriguing interpretation.What makes you think that? :-)

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:54 PM

I just re-read your original post ... so, to address some of your points:

'I am simply somebody who does not "get" "Blowin' in the Wind".'

"Getting" and "liking" songs and poetry is very subjective - what is striking or appealing to one person may well leave another cold.

'I know these are not original observations but to my ears it is simply a list of rhetorical questions'

Agreed - except for the adjective "simply". The rhetorical questions are in the form of remarkable, memorable images and phraseology with Churchillian power -

'culminating in a phrase that is so vague & imprecise that it could mean whatever you wished it to.'

Not quite. Despite some of the preceeding interpretation, "blowin' in the wind" clearly indicates that there are no easy answers; perhaps there are no answers - but the rest of song implies the desirability of trying to improve things anyway - much like the refrain "when will they ever learn". The "failure" to provide a pat answer is one reason why this song lives on, and will live on long after those anthems that celebrate pat answers have been discredited and forgotten.

'And yet it seems to hold a special place in the affections of a great many people.
Is this because of the way it was picked up by Civil Rights movement'

There are many reasons for the popularity of the song: nostalgia combined with its association with the correct causes of the '60s & '70s being only part of it, although perhaps the main part.

'or is it because of some particular merit of the song which I have failed to notice?'

There IS considerable merit in the song - FOR those who are moved and excited by imagery and the imaginative use of language. That's not everybody. For those who are more moved by straight and effective logic, the song will have less merit.

It's like the vintage car the mechanic down the road is always tinkering with. How much merit is there in it? For me, not a great deal. For him - clearly, a great deal. Which one of us is right? (The answer, my friend ... ).

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 04:04 PM

Though Dylan never claimed to be or wanted to be a spokesperson for the anti-war & civil rights movements of the 60's he was sort of drafted by the anti-establishment fronts because of his views, outlook & social comments in his songs. Many folkies are left leaning & many supporters that were against the war & for civil rights shared much in common in the 60's. He never took a formal stand, he only voiced better than most his feelings, that was his stand, how he as an individual felt about the issues of the day, it just happened that it was what many others felt but didn't or couldn't express them as well & he had the perfect medium to express it widely, in songs that would turn out to be carried far & wide. It was a voice that was looked for, needed & found. "Blowing In The Wind" was his questions, which happened to be the questions of so many others of his generation. He just was better at putting those questions into straight, simple & direct terms that they couldn't be ignored any longer espicially with that generation that was questioning so much of what had been 'the excepted'. It was a generation of questioning the norm, the excepted, the rule, the government, the rights & wrongs & the need for war. A friend of mine who later became a professer said to me that the older professers that taught during that generation said it was the best time of their careers, the kids questioned everything, they had to work to teack this generation & that tis generation wouldn't let anything go be without examination, nothing was taken for granted or excepted on face value.

Is it only that pigs can see the wind or that "we'll try to catch the wind" or that there are any answers that are 'blowing in the wind'? In order to make change one first has to see where change is needed & in order to see that one needs to question what exists. Slavery carried on here for better than 400 years. Why? Quakers questioned this & tried to bring attention to the plight of slavery.
IMHO that's all Dylan was doing with this song & the way he did it struck a nerve & a cord with a whole generation that was asking the same questions. BUt he asked the right questions & they were simplely put. In his "Masters Of War" he had already answered his own question of why & here he made his own statement in reply.

How this could be taken to represent a flag is also beyond me. The waving of the flag was questioned by most of that generation.

The world could well use another voice as clear & as in touch as his was back then, maybe with a bit more tonal quality this time but almost any voice will do.

Barry

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 04:21 PM

Well put, Barry.

(GUEST at 3:54 was me, meself).

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Alec
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 04:25 PM

Very interesting post GUEST.
Paradoxically, I do like this song it is the opening track on one of my favourite albums.
This,in itself, may be a factor. I feel my fists start to clench when I hear "Masters of War" & I have a little wry smile when I hear "Don't think Twice its, alright" ("You kinda wasred my precious time" possibly the finest "kiss off" line I ever heard)
But Blowin' in the wind...
I take your point about poetic/logic disparities though in areas other than the political I usually tend to the former.
I love "I Am The Walrus" because of its antirationalist stance & verbal dexterity & I love the mellifluousness of "Across The Universe" despite believing that song to be little more than the lament of a man in denial about the radical change his life was undergoing.
My desire to "get" Blowin' in the Wind isn't really a desire for a single simple "Correct" meaning.
Just wondering why of Dylan's entire output this song should be just about the best known & best loved.
My own particular favourite is probably "Like A Rollin' Stone"
that does not invalidate other choices. I just like knowing what determines the choices people make.
Does that make sense?

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 04:39 PM

Scrump (12th Feb). I think you're thinking of the routine the late Bob Monkhouse did (repeated occasionally since in clip shows) in the early sixties. He was attired in Beatles suit and wig and was being 'interviewed' by a voice off camera. He answered the questions by miming to little clips from pop hits. And one of the questions was indeed 'is it true that you never wash?' and the answer was as you described (taken, I think from the Peter Paul and Mary version of the song).

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 04:56 PM

In answer to the original question. Yes. It's special because of its philosophical nature, which is brilliant...because of its brevity and simplicity...because of its historical timing, which was absolutely perfect (that's why it had such an impact)...and because of its universality (which will cause it to endure and be remembered)...and because musically and lyrically it works extremely well.

If you don't get it, perhaps you are being too literal and left-brain about the whole thing. It's not an instruction manual or a recipe for political action, it's a poem. Poems are meant to stir the heart and the soul, not to provide answers to theoretical questions in a logic class.

In any case, maybe you had to be there in the moment when it first happened. Maybe you were. But I don't know if you were or not.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,mick burke
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 05:01 PM

I think the song is special because it's the only Dylan song that came close to actually being a folk song at a time when Dylan was being hailed as a great folk singer . Like other Dylan songs it has taken on layers of meaning that perhaps weren't apparent to the composer himself in the ten minutes it took him to write it.
Dylan was a rebel - an individualist never comfortable as the voice of his generation . One reading of "the answer my friend is blowin'in the wind" could be that Dylan was articulating his own cynical answer to the unanswerable questions he posed. Blowin'in the wind is the best course for the individual to take ,just take things as they come.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 05:26 PM

Dylan was absolutely steeped in the folk tradition by the early 60's, he loved it, and he wrote a great many genuine folksongs and covered many trad songs brilliantly. Have you heard his 1964 live recording of "Barbara Allen"? It's stunningly powerful. He WAS a great folksinger, man, but he decided after a bit to do some other kinds of music instead, that's all. It was his decision to change his musical style that pissed people off. They didn't want him to change.

As for the layers of meaning not apparent to the composer himself at the time he writes the song....yeah! That nearly always happens with really fine songwriting. That's because there's far more than just you conscious, analytical mind involved in the process. Dylan would be the first to admit himself that he didn't necessarily know what something was about at the time he wrote it...or even later in some cases. He wrote by sheer gut instinct. That's how really great songwriting is done in my opinion. It's the mediocre crap stuff you hear all the time on the radio that is done by premeditated calculation. No surprises there...not for the write or the listener. Dylan's stuff surprised people, and according to what I've heard it surprised him sometimes too.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,mickburke
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 05:52 PM

I never heard him sing Babry Allen ,but I'm sure he would have made a good job of it . He was a great folksinger and a brilliant composer,but did he ever write a great folksong ?

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Bugsy
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:00 PM

It's very special to me.


Cheers


Bugsy

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:02 PM

Well, mickburke, I guess it depends on how you define the term "folksong". How do you define it?

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,Thomas
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:04 PM

At that time he was nicking tunes from everywhere and putting very naive words to them. The tunes carried the day and blowing in the wind aka no more auction block was a prime example. He relied on the punters not knowing any better, then and now. Little Hawk is just one of those who could never see anything wrong with Dylan and are blind to criticism.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:11 PM

I think the song was released in 1963. It is 2007. Here folks are talkin' about it.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:23 PM

Great love tends to work that way, Thomas. ;-) You see the good in people when you love them. Everybody nicks tunes, consciously or unconsciously, and it's in the grand folk tradition to do so. The only reason Dylan gets criticism for it is this: he was a big success when he did it.

I see plenty of things wrong with Bob (he's got his dark side and he had a very big ego), but I don't resent his success. I think his nastier and less objective critics are primarily driven by precisely the fact that they resent his success.

I am perfectly aware where Dylan borrowed trad tunes, and I think that in most cases he greatly improved upon the original songs in his rewrites. I have done rewrites on trad songs too. It seems like a perfectly normal thing to do in the folk tradition to me.

Dylan also recorded "No More Auction Block" and performed it live quite a bit. It's a cool song. "Blowin' In The Wind" is better, in my opinion, both musically and lyrically. It's considerably deeper.

If you think Dylan relied on "punters" who didn't "know any better", then what the hell do you think the entire mainstream pop music business relies on, and every other popular style of music, not to mention our stupid political system and our mass media???? They rely on punters who don't know any better, that's what.

Find something to criticize that matters a bit more than whether Bob Dylan adapted some old trad songs to new lyrics.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:25 PM

"Nicking tunes from everywhere" - nicking implies taking something away so that it's not where it was before you took it. You can't do that with a tune. What you do is use it.

And using and maybe modifying existing tunes is what people have always done when they've made up a song, or wanted to sing a set of words they'd come across. And that's what Dylan did, the same as Woody Guthrie before him, or Ewan MacColl much of the time.

When we talk we use the same sounds as other people do, and the same words we share with them, and we put them in a different order, and we quote stuff other people have used. If we are making a collage we use bits of other people's pictures and stick them together in different contexts. It's not really all that different.

(And it's not exactly the same either - pretty well any time you make a comparison or draw an analogy you seem to have someone leap up and suggest that you've said the two things involved are exactly the same. I thought I'd try to head that off in advance this time.).

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:36 PM

I read as far as Scrump's post, regarding putting it into the context of the way things were in the sixties. I have to agree. About ten years ago, I heard a young man ask.. "What's the big deal about the JFK assassination? I don't get it.". It occurred to me then that things were so different that it's almost impossible to explain to those born after 1970. Would be nice to see the original author (what's his name again?) maybe come back and answer some of the questions he asked, so long ago. I'll go back and read the others now.
Regards
Jim

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:39 PM

Right. And you canNOT steal something that is already in the public domain, like a trad song. You can certainly use it, though.

The problem is, some stiff-necked people out there in the folk community way back then had come to the conclusion, emotionally speaking, that they "owned" the version of various trad songs which they were most familiar with....meaning, the version they first became attached to in their youth. To them, that version was the only legit version there ever was. As far as they were concerned, Bob was a scrawny little newby upstart from Minnesota with no credentials whatsoever in their divine pecking order and he was messing with what they owned.

I've got news for those people. You did not own that stuff. And of your pecking order I will say this: "everything passes, everything changes"

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:45 PM

The "universality" of songs like this is simply keeping any statements vague enough that they don't offend anybody into not buying the thing.

The guy was a professional popster. The song made him a lot of money. If it had said anything genuinely uncomfortable about the US corporate mass-murder machine of the time - getting people to actually do something specific towards destroying it rather than just feel good and selfrighteous - it would have made him a lot less money. End of story.

I have never met a single person who did a single positive political act as a result of listening to anything Dylan wrote, and a hell of a lot who just sat at home listening to his dreamy waffle on their record players when they could have been out making a difference. The net political effect of his lifework is indistinguishable from Sinatra's.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:55 PM

Interesting comments, Jack & Little Hawk. I don't suppose, I'm the only one whose noticed that the whole sixties movement is now driving the "Machine" and the rules of the road just get "Made UP" as we go.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 07:01 PM

geez, Jack, my sister was on a Freedom Ride trip when she heard these songs and they sure as hell inspired her to a lot of political acts, and they got a message across to those who would have otherwise spent their college years playing softball and listening to Jan & Dean. Sorry you dislike the guy's deal, but the songs were real and had a real impact on real times

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 07:18 PM

BTW, I always preferred PP+M's version of the song because of the chording difference. I never felt that Dylan's 'resolved' itself. I used to really like the song, but I can't listen to it anymore--except for maybe once a year by PP+M.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 07:27 PM

The best version was Stevie Wonder's.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 07:36 PM

First, thanks to Hawk for the general Dylan explanations, no one does it better. Then to my old friend Barry for moving this into the real realm of understanding. Finally, if at this point you don't "get it"......that's okay of course. You didn't have to be here in the US at the time or involved in The Movement or an SDS member or a Vet Against the War or a SNCC worker to "get it".........but that helps. So as a favor to an aging and angry radical, try this.

Forget the song as often done, lyrically and sweetly. Covered by an incredibly broad range of artists, the universality of it became apparent, but let's skip all of those often silly versions and talk about what hooked the generation of radicals running amok as it were in the US at the time. We heard something different and it may have been what Dylan meant.....or not.

Get out the words and read them with a headful of anger. Read every line with the inflection of "How long is this shit going to go on?" Get pissed and read on! Now ask "Why the fuck can't the gawdamn government quit lying to us and end this fuckin' war?" Beat your hands on the table and chant "HEY-HEY...LBJ......How Many Kids Did You KILL Today?" Can you see the marine lying face down in the jungle mud?   See the little girl on the road with her clothes and most of her skin burned off? Now sing, "How many deaths will it take til he knows that too many people have died?" Can you see the fresh faces of four little girls in Birmingham now blown to bits? See the Blacks knocked to the ground and rolled along by Bull Connor's fire hoses? Now see if there is any sweetness left to sing the first line. "How many roads must a man walk down befrore you call him a man?"

PPM probably got the sweetness ball rolling because their harmonies and blends were so soaring and beautiful. But watch an early performance and see the looks on their faces, the hardness of Mary Travers' eyes and mouth, and tell me they did not see the anger. Hopefully now you can see the anger and feel it too and somewhere in there perhaps you can "get it" like many of us did then. The answer was blowin' in the wind and we mostly couldn't grab it and perhaps it was futile to try.........but we did.

For me, that's what it meant.

Spaw.......Aging Radical

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 07:38 PM

Tastes differ.

Not "the best version" - "the version I like best".

And the version of blowing in the wind I've rank as best would probably be people singing to keep their spirits up in a situation where it actually mattered. It's that kind of song.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 07:44 PM

TRight with you, Spaw. I heard the following 'youtube video' done live in 1971 in Washington. It got tears in my eyes, because as you said, we just keep doing the same shit over and over and fuckin' over again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8U6Oh9uSY8

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 07:49 PM

This I think is the face of Mary you meant in your insightful post, Pat.

And it was never an act with that gal. She DID mean every word of it.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 07:54 PM

Thanks Bruce....That's it exactly!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,mickburke
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 08:02 PM

" I guess it depends on how you define the term "folksong". How do you define it? "
Little Hawk ,I suppose that's a million dollar question. I wouldn't be able to define what a folksong is ,but think I usually recognize one if I hear one . Euan MacColl ,Johnny Cash , mudcat's own Jim Maclean , Pete St John ,Ralph McTell , they're all people who have written what I'd call folksongs - songs of the people ,for the people.
Dylan's songs are more arty ,but Blowin' in the Wind came close.
A folksong should in my opinion be open to development what has been called on this site "the folking process" .
But copywriting laws have stopped that unfortunately .You're correct about Dylan's right to use and improve folk songs, but what do you think would happen if somebody took one of Dylan's songs and attempted to improve on it?

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 08:56 PM

Funny you should mention that. I go to a cafe that plays a blues program all the time...satellite radio or something. There was this blues song on by some blues singer, and it was a carbon copy of a Dylan song...but the words had all been changed. Whereas the Dylan song was about a rather complex theme, the blues song was some standard thing about the guy's negotiations with his woman. I can't remember which darn song it was now, but it just jumped out at me at the time and I thought it was kind of funny that someone would do that. They replaced some pretty meaningful lyrics with a whole brand new set of lyrics that were totally banal.

Another case of some very obvious "borrowing" of a Dylan song was Rod Stewart's blatant imitation of "Forever Young"...even using the same title as the original. He basically took Dylan's 1974 song, altered the chord pattern, altered and simplified the tune, eviscerated the chorus, and took most of the lyrics, changed them slightly, added a couple more, and then mixed up the order of the lines. This was a very shoddy attempt to pretend to have a new song on Rod Stewart's part, but it worked, and it was new musically speaking. The damn thing was a radio hit. (grin) I think it's lacklustre.

So my guess would be this: attempts to improve on Dylan's songs have generally not been too successful, thus far. I've heard some great covers, though. Sean Colvin does a great job on "You're Gonna Make Me Lonesome When You Go". Joan Baez does certain Dylan songs very well....such as "Farewell Angelina" and "Love is Just a Four Letter Word". She also added an additional verse to it, so I guess that's a rewrite. Hendrix's version of "All Along the Watchtower" was another really good adaptation of a Dylan song, by the way, although I don't know why he says "somewhere in the tall distance". He added the word "tall" to that. Strange.

I agree that folksongs should be open to development. Dylan himself has almost endlessly revamped and revised his older songs over the years, and I expect that others will do so as well.

To those who don't get that "Blowin' In The Wind" was an angry and passionate protest song...well, that's sad. Check out that link Peace provided. By God, that was a time, and Bob Dylan, more than any other soul alive wrote the songs that fired up the movement. Joan Baez has always said that, and don't tell me she didn't get out there and fight for her ideals. She's still doing so. Judy Collins always said so too.

If "Blowin' In The Wind" isn't literal enough protest for you, then listen to "The Times They Are A-Changin'". If that isn't literal enough for you, then listen to "Masters of War". Or try "Lonesome Death of Hattie Carrol". Or listen to "It's Allright, Ma...I'm Only Bleeding" (the song that protests just about everything in society).

If you can't see it, then you're the man who keeps looking up and never sees the sky. You're the one who turns his head and just doesn't see. You're the one who doesn't hear other people cry.

You think Dylan didn't care about that stuff when he wrote those songs? I think you're completely wrong about that. He cared about it right to the bone, and it's totally obvious if you listen to his voice when he sings, specially at the live concerts. He went with it full force for about 3-4 years, 3-4 very concentrated years, and then he started getting extremely uncomfortable with being the New Left's political icon. He felt he was being used by other people and he didn't want that. That's when he stepped away from the protest material and went into more personal songs and soon returned to electric music (which he'd played with great gusto in a series of high school rock bands). This was considered a betrayal by the folk establishment of the time. It was not a betrayal. It was a man trying to escape being put into a box by other people, and the actions of a man not content to rest on his laurels and keep doing the same damn thing over and over again till hell freezes over. He wanted to do something new and different.

Want to know what I think? I think that nothing beats Dylan's acoustic live performances in '65-66. I think he was at the absolute top of his craft then, and I think his finest writing (arguably) was on the 1965 album "Bringing It All Back Home". I love the electric stuff that came in the next 2 albums too, but Dylan alone with just an acoustic guitar and a harmonica was the ultimate and you could hear the words a lot clearer that way. It was more intimate. So I understand, what the folk audience was upset about at the time... Still, for him at that time it had become very boring to keep doing that. He wanted to work with a band. I can understand why he would've felt that way too.

Some people are happy to just keep doing the same thing. Others have to move on.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:51 PM

I am confused by the part about Rod Stewart and Forever Young. He "altered the chord pattern, altered and simplified the tune, eviscerated the chorus and took most of the lyrics, changed them slightly, added a couple more then mixed up the order of the lines."
WTF does all that mean? Did you ever read the part about Dylan not wanting to meet people cause they were always asking dumb ass questions about what a song meant?

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 10:11 PM

And how do you presume to know what someone was thinking, what they were feeling at a particular period of their life. Were you there, did you live with him, discuss these things with him, did he tell you how he felt, what he thought? IMHO, some of ya'll seem to take yourselves and things in general way to seriously. And I would be interested in knowing how many of you Dylanologists lived through in the US and through the civil rights/vietnam era. And some of you seem to be pretty pomous. BTW, it was a south vietnamese plan that dropped the napalm on the little girl, it was not an atrocity committed by the US military. I gotta go, gotta change the words, chord patterns, evisceate the chorus and alter the tune of Amazing Grace and see if I can write a hit.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: frogprince
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 10:54 PM

1. Spaw nailed it
2. What the hell does "pornous" mean?

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:26 PM

Did he ever. Thanks, Spawdarlin'...luvyakat

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: KT
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:32 PM

Right on, Spaw!

There's nothing wrong with sweetness in delivery of a song, although I think of it more as gentleness. Gentleness can serve as an invitation to be introspective and reflective, and in that space, ask the questions that need asking. Sometimes that's a better place to seek the answers. Sometimes the gentleness makes us feel the pain of the way things are going even more deeply, thus moving us to say, "never again." Sometimes that gentleness is what it takes to provoke the fire that we saw in the eyes of PP & M. No doubt about their meaning when they sang those songs.

As for the meaning of the phrase, Blowin' In the Wind.....I could not presume to know what Dylan intended, but in my interpretation - As the wind is here, touching us all, nudging us, trying to get our attention....so are the answers.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 12:53 AM

Thanks Spaw for the hon. mention. It's getting a bit tiresome to be an aging radical, you'd think by now the bastards would give it up & make it easier on us elderly but no they gotta start "rolling out their guns again haroo haroo". Jesus, they still don't get it. How many songs does it take, how many roads must men walk & how many times must the cannonballs fly? And here we are, at it again, same old shit.

"And I would be interested in knowing how many of you Dylanologists lived through in the US and through the civil rights/vietnam era."

Well Guest Bob I lived through it, though sadly enough many didn't, I marched, I protested & I fought in the streets & did time for my part in it. My brother didn't fair as well. He fought & came home & has been lost ever since. You couldn't believe how angry it makes me to see it all happening again, for the same no good reason, power & greed! We are still asking the same questions today.

"BTW, it was a south vietnamese plan that dropped the napalm on the little girl, it was not an atrocity committed by the US military."

It's that the little girl suffered for no reason except that she was in the wrong spot at the wrong time, an innocent & those who were directing the death didn't give a sweet caring shit about her. It didn't matter who dropped the Balm it was ours & it was an awful act & it was for no good reason. "When Will We Ever Learn"? That catches in my throat today as much as much as the answer is "Blowing In The Wind" did 40 years ago!

Barry

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 12:58 AM

You'd be surprised, "Bob", what I know about Mr Dylan after a lifetime of very keen interest in him and his works. I'm not going to waste my time explaining how and why, because it would be a kind of long story.

Yes, I did live in the USA during the civil rights struggle and most of the Vietnam War.

The atrocities committed by the South Vietnamese would never have happened in the first place if the USA had not gone in there with CIA and military people even before the French pulled out, because the frikkin' Catholic South Vietnamese corrupt joke of a USA puppet government would never even have come into being in the first place, and there would have been NO Vietnam War after the French left. Vietnam was one country before the French, it was one country during the French colonial rule, and it would have been one country afterward if the CIA and the US military had left it bloody well ALONE and allowed national elections to occur (as was planned and agreed upon on paper) after the French left! They chose not to. They chose to divide that country and prevent those elections from occuring. They and the Vietnamese people paid the price. At least a million people died in that war for absolutely nothing...except to get the USA out of that country.

It is now one country again.

Regarding the 2 songs: "Forever Young" by Dylan was written and recorded in '74. Here's the lyric:

May God bless and keep you always,
May your wishes all come true,
May you always do for others
And let others do for you.
May you build a ladder to the stars
And climb on every rung,
May you stay forever young,
Forever young, forever young,
May you stay forever young.

May you grow up to be righteous,
May you grow up to be true,
May you always know the truth
And see the lights surrounding you.
May you always be courageous,
Stand upright and be strong,
May you stay forever young,
Forever young, forever young,
May you stay forever young.

May your hands always be busy,
May your feet always be swift,
May you have a strong foundation
When the winds of changes shift.
May your heart always be joyful,
May your song always be sung,
May you stay forever young,
Forever young, forever young,
May you stay forever young.


"Forever Young" as recorded by Rod Stewart a decade or so later was written, supposedly, by him and 2 other people. Here are the lyrics:

May the good lord be with you
Down every road you roam
And may sunshine and happiness
Surround you when youre far from home
And may you grow to be proud
Dignified and true
And do unto others
As youd have done to you
Be courageous and be brave
And in my heart youll always stay
Forever young, forever young
Forever young, forever young

May good fortune be with you
May your guiding light be strong
Build a stairway to heaven
With a prince or a vagabond

And may you never love in vain
And in my heart you will remain
Forever young, forever young
Forever young, forever young
Forever young
Forever young

And when you finally fly away
Ill be hoping that I served you well
For all the wisdom of a lifetime
No one can ever tell

But whatever road you choose
Im right behind you, win or lose
Forever young, forever young
Forever young ,forever young
Forever young, forever young
For, forever young, forever young


Now, as you can see, there's more than a passing resemblance between the lyrics, but the Dylan lyric is far better organized in a structural sense, and its got a bit more content. Anyone who knows the 2 songs well, and I do, can hardly escape noticing that the Rod Stewart song is a deliberate imitation of the Dylan song. It's not a direct copy of it, but it is an imitation, and not a very good one.

If you're going to imitate a song that closely, you might as well at least do a good job while you're at it. I think the people who wrote the Rod Stewart one figured that 95% of the public wouldn't even remember the Dylan one...and they're probably right about that. After all, the attention span is getting pretty short out there these days.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: KT
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:02 AM

"When Will We Ever Learn"? That catches in my throat today as much as much as the answer is "Blowing In The Wind" did 40 years ago!

It catches in mine, too, Barry. As do the words to "The Times They Are A Changin'" Have you reviewed those lyrics lately? I never was much into the song the first time around, but recently discovered Finest Kind's rendition. Gulp.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:17 AM

Wickipedia says this about Rod Stewart's version of "Forever Young": ("Forever Young" was an unconscious revision of Bob Dylan's song of the same name; the artists reached an agreement about sharing royalties.)

The Dylan song was recorded in 1974. The Rod Stewart song in 1988.

Unconscious? Yeah, maybe. It's clearly a reworking of the Dylan song, kind of like what would happen if someone had a really vague memory of a song they'd heard 15 years ago and they tried to recreate it from the fragments. Dylan's song was written for his children. Rod's sounds to me like it was intended to be one of those anthems that gets a stadium audience to all do "the wave" in unison. He's had a couple of others like that.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:28 AM

No KT, I haven't had a listen in awhile now but "The Times They Are A Changing" was & still is a master piece, IMHO. It's a song that really can't be murdered no matter who sings it. It's pretty raw emotion & better than that I always loved the "Masters Of War". It's probably his only hate song. The hatred of those who'd bring the fear on bringing children into a world & the curse that follows is an emotion to be reckoned with.

"And I hope that you die & your death it comes soon
And I'll follow your casket on a pale afternoon
And I'll watch as lowered int to your death bed
And I'll stand over your grave till I'm sure that you're dead".

Brilliant, pure & so simple, no mistaken the feelings here no complex symbolism. It ought to be rereleased along with a few others, they're as fit for today as they were way back when.

Barry

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:46 AM

Well, he's got a couple of other "hate" songs too, but they're about more personal matters. ;-)

"Idiot Wind" and "Positively Fourth Street" come to mind. "Ballad of a Thin Man" is pretty venomous too and so is "Like A Rolling Stone", but they express something a little more akin to contempt than hatred.

"Masters of War" is the single most uncompromising antiwar statement that's ever been put to music, in my opinion, and it goes straight to the heart of the issue by focusing on those shadowy few at the top who control and instigate wars in order to make more money for themselves.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:59 AM

I was born in '55 so my recollection of all of this probably pales in comparison to you (mature) folks but tell me; Wasn't a huge part of what went on in the sixties, not a generation thing? Teenagers telling the establishment how to run the country at a time when anyone under the age of thirty was pretty well irrelevant. And isn't that part of the reason Bob Dylan had such an impact?

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 02:27 AM

Yes, absolutely, a huge part of it revolved around what was called at the time in the media "the Generation Gap". Young people in the 60's and early 70's had a most extraordinary sense of themselves as a sort of nation apart, a positively tribal sense of separation from the older people, and the system was clearly run (as it always is) by the older people....so the young people felt at greatly at odds with the system. The draft and the Vietnam War added much fuel to that fire.

I lived through it, and I have never seen or heard of such a ferment among a youthful generation deeply at odds with their elders as occurred at that time. There was this incredible sense of shared identity and purpose among young people for about 10 years or more.

It had its good side and it had its bad side. On the good side, it stirred a great deal of creativity and idealism and helped to change society's attitudes toward race, religion, politics, war, gender issues, really almost every important issue you can think of. This led to a lot of positive change in people's philosophies.

On the bad side, young people became very arrogant and close-minded in many cases in their assumptions of moral superiority to older people, and they got sidetracked into deadends like drug use and promiscuity and general irresponsibility. (tune in, turn on, drop out)

It was pretty bizarre, and at the same time pretty intoxicating. The dreams we dreamed were spectacular. The mistakes we made were considerable. The victories we won were considerable too, but it felt like we had failed at the time. We changed the world, but not nearly as much as we had hoped to.

Yes, the divisions between old and young tremendously accentuated the impact of young singers like Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, Phil Ochs, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Jimi Hendrix, the Rolling Stones, the Beatles and a host of others at the time.

I haven't seen anything even vaguely like it since. Things are much more fragmented now.

The $ySStem was badly shaken in the mid to late 60's by the youth movement. They've been pretty much in control since then, because they learned how to control the media...from the top down. Reporters don't go to war like they did in the 60's. They are "embedded" now. That means...they are controlled.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 03:20 AM

Aimlessly withering in the breeze with little chance of being rescued or even noticed is truly blowing in the wind.
Flags my Celtic arse!

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Wordsmith
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 04:14 AM

Boy, is this a trip down memory lane. I guess, to touch on my thoughts about the original question, it depends on whose version you like best. Mine was Peter, Paul and Mary's. I never cared for Dylan's voice. I was living in Chicago, right after the Democratic convention, and it was a truly remarkable place to be in. Richard Daley, the first, was mayor...and the Chicago police were like...well, storm troopers. To quote Dickens, It was the best of times; it was the worst of times.... I was fortunate enough not to get my head busted or myself, either, on any of the peace marches, sit-ins, picket lines, rallys, etc. I attended. Blowing in the Wind was just one of many anthems, we sung in between chants...but it seemed to be the one that transcended the generation gap that was extremely wide then. Maybe, as someone above said, because it was somewhat innocuous...i.e., old people didn't get it, so it could be safely sung sweetly when you were at churches trying to raise money for the peace movement. It is its ambiguity, I think, as well, as others have said, that keeps it current, no matter what the era...just as This Land is Your Land.
I want to thank the person who provided the YouTube link...I attended three PPM concerts in Chicago between '68 and '72, and they were very much like the ones portrayed. Judy Collins and Joni Mitchell, too. Was, still am a big Joan Baez fan, as well as the others, too. I think PPM's Great Mandala, I think that's the title, was a stronger anti-war anthem, but Blowing... has stood the test of time, and more people relate to it. I do think you had to have been there.
Before the Vietnam War, people on the U.S. mainland only heard about war from the radio, newspapers, or relatives, friends who'd been there. We ate the images on television for dinner! (Sorry, I forgot newsreels.) Did we accomplish anything? The answer, my friends, is blowin' in the wind...

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 04:43 AM

Some interesting comments since I last looked at this thread yesterday.

Those who support the "US flag" argument seem to be trying to justify it based on Dylan's later persona and output. Like many a young rebel before him, he probably became part of the establishment later, and his musical output reflected that. (How much of a rebel is Mick Jagger or Rod Stewart these days?)

As I and others have said, the key to understanding the song's impact is to understand the political and social context of the time (early 1960s).

The "Freewheelin'" album (on which the song was issued) was the first Bob Dylan LP I bought (I didn't buy the 1st album until later, and I got all the others up to around 1970). That was my favourite album for the next few years and it's still my favourite Dylan album. But I have to admit the Blowin' In The Wind was never my favourite track, and to be frank, it was probably one of my least favourites on the album. When I started in folk clubs in the late 1960s a large part of my repertoire was Dylan songs, and I performed most songs off that album (even I Shall Be Free and Talking WW3 Blues!), but I don't recall singing Blowin' In The Wind much. I think even by the late 1960s, it had become a bit hackneyed and I was aware of that.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Alec
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:38 AM

Clearly a song that means many things to many people, then.
As Peace pointed out the fact that we consider it to still merit discussion 44 years on(which is nearly 2 generations,which is more than half a lifetime)must count for something.
Alec,
Who was born in '62.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:42 AM

So we know where you were when JFK was assassinated then, Alec - in nappies (diapers)! :-)

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:39 AM

Exactly, Wordsmith. It wasn't a pop song you heard on the radio and played on the record player for entertainment. It was an anthem people sang together, and it was part of the movement, not a little amusing tune.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:50 AM

Congratulations Alec. You're 62? Just twenty years older than myself.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 02:19 PM

One of the best discussions of an important song I've seen on this website in months!

Yes, Alec, some of us were there, and that song still resonates with powerful feelings. Unfortunately, the damn song isn't obsolete. The question is still unanswered, swirling around, for those who listen.

I always assumed that Dylan had also picked up the "winds of change" rhetoric that was voiced in the 1960's.

I certainly didn't identify "the answer" with a flag but I can see how someone very patriotic might interpret the song that way. Interesting!

Peace-

Special thanks to your link to Mary Travers and the P's.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 02:27 PM

Jim Lad says: "Congratulations Alec. You're 62? Just twenty years older than myself."

Um, Jim Lad - if you're the same Jim Lad who was born in '55, I have some unfortunate news for you regarding your age ...

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 04:44 PM

Alec is not 62--Alec was born in '62--

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 04:49 PM

That would make Alec about 35?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:02 PM

Sorry: My eyes aren't what they used to be. So born in 62. Yep! Charlies right. You're 35. Guess I've just walked down a few more roads than you.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:06 PM

And NONE of you can pass basic addition and subtraction!! Count on your fingers if you must but I think born in '62 makes you 45 this year..................

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:10 PM

Bullshit! I was born in 1947 and I'LL be 47 this year. Did the math myself.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:10 PM

And how many fingers must one man have before he can count that high?
I also think, Dylan's rendition was the best. As much for what he was at the time as for his delivery. (and it was his. Right?

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:12 PM

I think the fingers should not be an issue if you were born next to a big nuke plant...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:14 PM

Thank You, Spaw: You brought us right back on to the topic.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: NightWing
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 06:13 PM

"Try 45" says NightWing, who was also born in '62.

BB,
NightWing

On the topic, some poetry just doesn't click with some people. I happen to like "Blowin'" a lot, but it doesn't have the same emphatic resonance that it does for (some!) people 5-10 years older than me.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 06:18 PM

I find Dylan's rendition to be by far the best, although the Peter, Paul, and Mary version is very good in its own right. Watching the video of Mary singing it in the early days (the black and white movie) is just riveting! Man, we really thought we could change the world back then. And we did change it...some.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,Mike B.
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 06:33 PM

From Nat Hentoff's liner notes to "The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan" -

"The first of Dylan's songs in this set is "Blowin' in the Wind". In 1962, Dylan said of the song's background: 'I still say that some of the biggest criminals are those that turn their heads away when they see wrong and know it's wrong. I'm only 21 years old and I know that there's been too many wars... You people over 21 should know better.' All he prefers to add by way of commentary now is: 'The first way to answer these questions in the song is by asking them. But lots of people have to first find the wind.'"

Joan Baez has expressed disappointment that he never 'joined the movement'. But it might have detracted from the Dylan mystique had he actively participated in protest demonstrations back in the 60s.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 07:15 PM

For me, to say that the answer is "blowing in the wind" is to say this: There is an answer. It's out there somewhere. But it's elusive. To find it is like trying to catch the wind and hold it in your hand. No one knows where the wind comes from, and no one knows where it goes. The same is true of the answers to the questions Dylan asks in the song. It can also be seen, of course, as the winds of change...blowing away the old order, bringing in the new.

As in "Changing of the Guards" (an anthem-like Dylan song from 1979):

"Peace will come
With tranquility and splendor on the wheels of fire
But will offer no rewards (other) than her false idols' fall
And cruel death surrenders
with its pale ghost retreating
between the King and the Queen of Swords"

I always thought it would scan better this way:

"Peace will come
With tranquility and splendor on the wheels of fire
But will offer no rewards when the false idols fall
And cruel death surrenders
with its pale ghost retreating
between the King and the Queen of Swords"

So I normally sing it that way.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 08:24 PM

Sure it might have "detracted from his mystique" if he'd been harassed by the cops like Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger, or sacked and imprisoned like Ruhi Su, or tortured like Mikis Theodorakis, or killed like Victor Jara and Peter Tosh. But I know which of those I respect more.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,pat cooksey.
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:01 PM

In answer to the original question, YES.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:03 PM

We all find our own special brand of sacrifice and suffering. Dylan's was in coping with the outrageous dimensions of both his fame and many people's expectations of him.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:32 PM

"But I know which of those I respect more"

Why do we have to tie our thoughts about the writer into our reaction about the song? If we knew who wrote "Barbara Allen", would that increase our descrease our feelings about the song?

Dylan doesn't seem like the kind of person whose company I would enjoy, but that isn't the point. I don't care whether he joined the "movement" or just had a nice one. Whether I respect him as a person or not was not the question being discussed and it has absolutely bupkis to do with the song.

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:14 PM

Someone is not counting my middle finger!

Charley Noble, a little late, being distracted by malfunctioning furnace

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Alec
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 03:34 AM

More accurately again,I WILL BE 45 this year.
Isaac Newton was a genius but I would not want him as a next door neighbour.
Gifted and admirable need not correlate.
Sloppy performances,disdain for the public,disinclination to acknowledge debts to others & blatant tendency to act in bad faith are all part & parcel of the Dylan experience.
That, however, does not invalidate his work. (Though it does make you want to give him a slap on occasion)

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:53 AM

100!

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 08:08 AM

Many of us are every bit as flawed as the person in question - but we haven't produced a body of work that exposes some of our flaws to the world, and induces strangers to dig up and publicize the unflattering details of our personal lives ...

Subject: RE: Is 'Blowin in the Wind' special?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:25 AM

Aha!!! That is a very cogent point.