Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Musket
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:20 AM

Perennial subject...

I always used to say that a folk club is somewhere you can get up and enjoy yourself and always get an appreciative audience who actually listen rather than treat you as background entertainment. It is great for that, but when you do branch out to other types of performance, you get a bit of a shock...

Many years ago at a folk club I was involved in, a locally well known performer who shall remain nameless did his bit and then, sat at the front, got his book out to read whilst others were performing! Didn't even get the message when he was asked, from the stage, if he had ever been chucked out of a library for singing?

Folk club audiences are a broad church to say the least, but just like any other artistic endeavour, you get people who are too focussed on themselves to notice the bigger picture.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 05:30 AM

Richerd - There is indeed a huge difference between the two. I don't believe anyone on here is suggesting they are that good that they can exclude anyone. There is also a huge difference between excluding someone altogether an restricting where they perform, which is all I am saying. Let us say for instance we have someone at our club who cannot hold a tune, cannot remember words and cannot keep time. Let's call her Mureil to protect the innocent (My Mothers name).

Now, Muriel is more than welcome to strut her stuff at any one of our singers nights, of which there are 28 a year. She can also go to a host of other clubs, including Lewes, and get on anytime she wants. What I will not do is put her on main stage to support Bellowhead in front of an audience of 300 people who have paid £15 a ticket. Now if that is being exclusive or superior to anyone then I'm afraid I am guilty as charged. So are most of the music promotors in the country.

There should be no difference in quality between the Bellowhead concert and a guest night at or club. OK, we only charge £3 and only get 40 in but the quality should be just the same. On a singers night with free admission and the where the auience understand that anything goes it is a different kettle of fish.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 05:30 AM

Jim - ask what you owe - that is your decision.
I ask what I owe - that may be a different decision.
Who gave you the right or power to decide what someone else owes?

Take our own Tone Deaf Leopard for example: the bel canto brigade recoil in horror, but that is not the point of what they do. At their best they can be side-splittingly funny, at least one of their tunes to a well-known song adds well to the darkness of the events in the song, and others do perform their words to well-known songs.

If you apply "standards" as you seem to wish to do, you do indeed exclude them - as Sue has explained above.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Cliff
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 04:31 AM

A poet who comes to a local club never practices a reading because it removes the spontaneity (so he says).
He misreads words, cannot scan correctly & cannot perform even a limerick without a book.
He asked my partner how many songs I know from memory.
She said she didnt know but it was at least 200.
He said,'Is that all, I have about four hundred'.

I did feel I was wasting my time learning the words & practising guitar before performing if I could satisfy the audience just reading from a songbook.
Individuals have their own personal standards & its up to the organiser to decide if the audiences tolerance level matches the performers.

To get back on thread - manners in folk clubs should be based on 'Do unto others ....'
If I was at a rock concert I still would try not to disturb others with my activities.
Manners really!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 04:31 AM

Richard,
It's been asked numerous times, here and elsewhere, and has yet to be answered - would you apply the same criterion to painting, acting, sculpting, opera, jazz (or even being an electrician)....... if not, why not? Is the singing of folk songs an inferior pursuit to all of these?
I believe that it lies within the abilities of most people to sing - as long as they are prepared to put in the time and effort.
'Superior', 'judgement' and 'exclude' are all loaded words that only
serve to avoid the main issue. Nobody, as far as I can see, is attempting to "sit in judgment on" or be "superior to" or "exclude" anybody - we are simply asking that a performer reaches a certain (not particularly high) standard before they sing in public - what is wrong with that?
For me this whole question revolves around a piece of contempt that has plagued the revival from the word go - "it takes no effort, thought or talent to sing folk songs". Do you believe this? If the answer is 'no', why is it unreasonable to expect that a new singer first puts in the effort, thought and time in order to develop their talents to the level where we can all sit back and enjoy their singing?
Again I ask, don't we owe at least that much to to the people who made and passed down the songs.
Folk song has yet to find its place in the sun in Britain, it will never get that place without the work being put in.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:43 AM

Surely there is a difference between believing that people should care enough about the music they sing or play to practise and to seek to improve (on the one hand) and on the other hand believing that one is sufficiently superior to sit in judgment on others and exclude them.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:20 PM

Ahhhhh - I got the 400th and 401st post so the end of page 8 ad the start of page 9 are both mine. Today Mudcat, tomorrow the world...

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:11 PM

???? 401 = 400 some ground-breaking maths here

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:08 PM

I claim 400 AND page 9:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:08 PM

How you doing, John? Not seen you at Swinton for some time. Mind you, with all then undecypherable Geordie sings I'm not quite sure if you are good enough...

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 07:57 PM

Oh that OFSTED could sum up a problem in one sentence like Captain Swing :0)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 07:56 PM

it looks like the thread has gone off on a tangent, then gone on/off and on/off ........

it was originally about how people in the venue behave while 'artists' are performing. Should standards of performance be a separate thread?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 07:50 PM

Some of the posts on this thread are beginning to sound like the dreaded OFSTED!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 07:49 PM

And I don't know how they can disagree with you both (Dick and Jim) but sadly they still keep going with their ringbinders and music stands making a complete mockery of a once vibrant medium.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:09 PM

I have been involved with music and singing for over forty years.
I cant think of a day[apart from when I was ill],that I havent played or sang,today I must have spent three hours playing and practising,I consider myself privileged to still be able to do so.
not everyone is as fortunate as myself.
it is great to see people making their own music,but it is important for all performers to set themselves standards.
if someone occassionally forgets a word[it happens to everyone],it is acceptable,we are not machines ,but I feel it is much better not to have a set of printed words.
lets cast our minds back to the heyday of folk clubs,you had to get to the club early to get a floor spot,you had to be good to get a floorspot the next week.
furthermore no one had crib sheets,or performed with printed words.
standards were high,clubs were full.
clubs were well organised,a weak performer would be followed by a strong resident,it was a system that worked.
I would like to repeat that as a guest at someones club,I would consider it ill mannered to say anything to any performer,who used printed words.,IF they asked my opinion,I would try and explain my viewpoint.
admittedly the scene has changed,there are a lot more singaround clubs than there used to be,but even in this more amateuer environment, isnt it better to strive towards a higher standard.
To make the effort to perform without a script.,and fail, is better[In my book] than not trying at all.
I would rather hear a performer with a limited repertoire perform the same songs if he/she did them well,than see someone give new songs a lifeless rendition from a script.
I am not saying that it is impossible,to perform well with a script,it is in my experience rare.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 05:15 PM

Bryan (there are enough insults flying around without silly names)
Thank you for providing such an excellent example of "me, me, me" – or - if you insist "us, us, us".
"the woman who plagued you at The Singers Club forty years ago doesn't come to the Arms"
Well, aren't you the lucky ones – she came to our club for over a year, met your non - criterion more than perfectly by wanting to sing to the extent of complaining that she wasn't allowed enough songs. I know she went to other clubs (though I couldn't help but notice she wasn't offered a spot any of them - it seems they adopted the standards that you seem to find objectionable, or at least unnecessary).
You seem to have overlooked the fact that this is a general debate on the application of standards, not a discussion on the Lewes, or any other Club.
You skated neatly around the question under discussion, so I'll ask it – what would you do if she turned up at your club? What if she turned up with a handful of mates equally unable to sing but desirous of doing so? Would you turn over a substantial slice of your club evening to a group of non-singers?
Sorry, a rhetorical question – of course you would." That's what it's about" (isn't that what your committee said?)
Anyway; how do you know she never visited your club – I never named her or described her. Do you never get bad singers turning up and asking to sing?
Incidentally, I had no intention of criticising your club or its policy; I've never been there, and have always heard good things of it. I repeat – the idea that 'all it needs is the will to sing' is crass, whoever says it – that's as far as it goes.
"Every floor singer is a member of the audience. Every member of the audience is a potential floor singer. Every booked guest was once a floor singer."
No argument with this whatever as long as 'potential' is the operative word. Realising that potential by putting enough work in beforehand is the deciding factor for me, not practicing in public until you it right.
"I get the impression that some of the negative views on this thread come from people who don't like people very much."
I can't speak for those who wish to see standards established at the clubs, but personally I find this (once again – from you on this thread) deeply insulting. Can you please tell us what has led you to this extraordinary conclusion?
In fact, the opposite is the case; as far as I'm concerned, it is those who don't see the need of some level of 'quality control' who show contempt for the audience, the singers, and the music.
I believe that it is out of respect for the people who make the effort to turn up, for the singers who put the work in beforehand, and even for the wannabe singers who seem prepared to throw themselves to the wolves before they have got their singing together, that it is essential that club evenings are not allowed to fall below a certain level.
It is also out of respect for the music that I would suggest that it is brought up to a reasonable level of performance before it is presented publicly (and not laid open to ridicule, be it by the media or just by any stray passer by who might drift in (and who knows, who might just become a regular – and a 'potential floor-singer) – for me, the music is at least worth that.
Walter Pardon spent about forty years loving putting his family repertoire together, memorising and writing down the songs and recalling the tunes with the help of a melodeon.   When asked to do so, it took him about four months of fairly consistent work to fill a tape of songs to be presented to Bill Leader. On numerous occasions when he appeared at clubs in the south of England he stayed with us. He carefully prepared his list of songs and sang them through again and again till he was satisfied with them. If he gave what he considered a bad performance (I never saw him do so) it upset him – in other words, he applied standards right up to the point of his stopping singing in public. He stopped singing in public when he felt ho coul;d no longer maintain that standard.
One of the hardest parts of collecting was not getting the singers to part with their songs, but invariably it was persuading them that they had something worthwhile to offer and that by singing into the microphone they weren't going to humiliate themselves. They constantly apologised for "not being able to sing"; "you should have been here forty years ago when I had a voice", "You should have heard my brother, he was the singer of the family".
All of the people we met who passed down the songs to us valued them enough to do their best to 'get them right'.
If they thought it worth making an effort for, why can't we?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:15 PM

£1.33 a pint!!

Wow! Sounds like my sort of club. Where was it again?

Off to the Royal Oak FC soon. You never know I might get a floor spot so I'd better do some practice.

I'll get back to you.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Joe Steel
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:09 PM

We have run a successful club in Trosley, first at "The Two Kings" and then " The Full House" for over 30 odd years and we haven`t lost our capacity audience at all. We overcame the "dodgy" singer business by learning from the ice skating competitions when they were first on t.v. Three committee members have white numbered cards, from 1 to 10. After each artist sings or plays they display their card that they feel gives a score out of 10 for performance. An average is calculated and anyone not reaching the aggregate of 7.5 is invited ted speak with our professional music master( £22.5 per hour). As I said we have grand audiences, but there again, it could be that the best bitter £1.33 a pint!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM

I find it difficult to believe that in Snail's club nothing is done to discourage a singer who was quite rightly allowed to sing for the first time simply because he/she wanted to but sings very badly and then proceeds to do nothing whatsoever by way of practice (outside the club)over the subsequent weeks/months to improve their performance

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM

I must say, Bryan, I did read both Jims post and yours thoroughly and I did interpret Jims comments pretty much as he describes them himself.

I really can't be bothered to go through your post correcting all the misrepresentations

Oh, please do. It is very unfair of you to say I am misrepresenting something and then not say what! I am not sure what I did in my post to warrant such a negative reaction as I was I was trying to be possitive and non-confrontational. If the post did offend you in some way I need to know how to put things right. I am very much a people person after all:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM

Jim Carroll

I find the suggestion that the only standard required to perform publicly is the desire to do so totally crass; be it from you or the Lewes committee.

and for Dave's benefit -

The only concession to standards seems to be that the 'practicers' are hidden away in the cupboard when the guests arrive and are only allowed to strut their stuff on residents nights - how ******* patronising can you get!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:10 PM

I didn't say your way was crass- I said the criterion for anybody singing in public was that 'they wanted to' was crass.
Nor did I suggest that singers should be excluded "based on not having seen them"
Please don't put words in my mouth - talk to the hand boys, talk to the hand!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 12:55 PM

Sorry Dave but you don't seem to have read either what I have said or what Jim has said and I really can't be bothered to go through your post correcting all the misrepresentations. I'm sure your club is excellent and I have never suggested otherwise.

You - Remember that there are different ways of getting it right and yours may not be the only one.

Just so, which is why I object to Jim telling me that our way is "crass".

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 11:42 AM

Bryan Creer,at the risk of being called a nodding dog,YOUmake avalid point,we all had to start some where.this is where good organisation and good mcing comes to work,a weak singer should be followed by a strong singer or resident,there is as you undoubtedly know a skill to running a night.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 11:08 AM

We can't suppress the many who may have much to contribute for fear of the occasional bad egg.

Absolutely agreed, Bryan, even though we have disagreed many times on similar points. There is no suggestion or even any justification in Jims argument, or my earlier ones for that matter, for excluding anyone based on not having seen them or fear that they would be a 'bad egg'. What we are saying is that there are certain performers who, for the sake of the 'wider picture' should be restricted to singers nights etc. until such a time as they get to this very easily achieved minimum standard. There is nothing difficult at all about holding a tune, remebering words or playing an instrument acceptably well. It is just down to practice.

You are very lucky at your club in that, somehow, you manage to get everyone on all the time, even on guest nights. We, for instance, do not want to do this for various reasons. Neither of us are right or wrong. Just different. Because we have more singers nights than guest nights then our philosophy is to allow singers nights to be 'come all ye' but insist on this minimum standard on a guest night when we only ever get 4 support performers on at most. No-one minds. If we get to the situation where a newcomer comes on a guest night we have to play it by ear. More often than not, provided we have not already 'booked up', they will get a spot. Often they are invited back as guests.

As I said earlier - You seem to be particularly well blessed at your club and seem to be able to get it right all the time. Not all of as are that lucky but, after over 25 years experience of running the Swinton club, I can honestly say that we must be getting it right most of the time. I cannot speak for Jim but I suspect that with his experience he must be getting it right as well. Remember that there are different ways of getting it right and yours may not be the only one.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:36 PM

One other thing which can happen sometimes is that when a performer is on the weak side, but is , nontheless , making a gallant effort, they often get a bigger round of applause than an experienced performer to take account of the struggle that is going on and the bravery, perhaps, of performing for the first time.

I have known some peeople to misinterpret this and think that they are a "superstar born"!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 03:38 PM

Jim Carroll

I find the suggestion that the only standard required to perform publicly is the desire to do so totally crass; be it from you or the Lewes committee.

Really? We find it fundamental to what we do. If you weren't so out of touch with what's happening in the UK, you might realise that we are a well respected club that does a lot to promote traditional music. We love folk music (and I think you would find our definition not far from yours) but we also love people. I get the impression that some of the negative views on this thread come from people who don't like people very much.

I'm sorry Jim but the woman who plagued you at The Singers Club forty years ago doesn't come to the Arms so we can't use her as a basis for our policy. We can't suppress the many who may have much to contribute for fear of the occasional bad egg.

Neither do we have Silas's song murderer. I think that that experience vindicates our attitude; if you make it clear that everyone is going to get their turn then you keep the pushy types under control.

We have heard a great deal about what being allowed to perform in public has done for the individual, no matter what stage has been reached, and precious little on what it has done for the audience/fellow performers/music - "me, me, me".

No, Jim. "Us, us, us". Every floor singer is a member of the audience. Every member of the audience is a potential floor singer. Every booked guest was once a floor singer.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:30 PM

"I am not a wonderful singer, player and performer".... actually Nick, I think your pretty good!

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:17 PM

Fish Fingers with chips!! A favourite.

Captain Birdseye I'm sure noone is looking to attack you but I think you've made your best effort with that post to almost guarantee it.

Mea culpa. Take this as a lighthearted bit of amusement at your expense and an opportunity for a terrible thing that I just couldn't resist - especially as I 42.5% agree with your post.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM

I'm not sure there is very much disagreement on the point of standards underneath it all.

Outside of a paid concert performance or paid guest night I reckon pretty much anyone who has contributed here would accept that people, while they may not have a right, would at least be allowed one or two goes at singing in public - otherwise how would anyone start? And a percentage of them/us move from that small beginning to become performers at some level or another. And if it's good - or if people recognise a smidgeon of something there - they will no doubt be encouraged.

The problem seems to lie in dealing with the people who reckon that that the quality of that first (usually pretty shakey) performance is something to try and aim for in the future (and not really be too concerned if they drop short).

What's really hard is telling people. We are pretty accepting where we are - but I think it true to say that the standard is reasonable, or rather has become reasonable over time - but have drawn the line on occasions. Most notably 'the mandolin player'. I won't bore you with details but loud mandolin playing out of key and out of time across everyone's singing and playing was so out of line that it needed to be said. He didn't come back.

Most people do and know what the unwritten rules are where we play and hence choose if they return or don't. Most do. The people who want to be the centre of attention and be the only one playing all night probably don't. But we've had evenings with a full room of people who have joined in ensemble when appropriate, made a lot of noise singing choruses, romped through some session tunes but still have the good grace for the most part to shut up when someone sings an unaccompanied song.

It's just manners. And manners and the ethos of places are set by who runs them, what they care about and what they choose to enforce.

If someone comes to us and decides to sing out of turn or whatever then it will be met (by everyone not one person) with "whoa, hold on it's not your go. This is how it works here..." And we go from there.

The first time I ever sang outside of my local environment was at the White Hart in Mickleby. I doubt I have ever been more nervous in my life and it was 'just' a singaround. At the stage I had probably played the guitar for something like 35 years and had played in a band in the past. Nerves (and too much to drink caused by those nerves) led to me forgetting all the words; the guitar part; and in the end I folded into an embrrassed heap and gave up (it was Ewan MacColl's 'Fathers Song' which I thnk I'll sing tonight). But I didn't get banned or prevented from playing and I'm glad of that, and people were very nice and understanding.

I have to agree that it's strange where people stay at the same level of competence year in year out. And it's hard to know what to do with them. I think we are quite lucky in that of the group of people who come to Flaxton most are reasonable and the very odd one who has been grim have tended not to return (the guy who did Rikki Don't Lose that Number on a very out of tune guitar and matching voice hasn't been for a long time - he at least had the gift of allowing us to play the 'guess what he's singing' game with quite amusing results; the look on people's faces when the penny dropped that it was a Steely Dan song was precious).

I am not a wonderful singer, player and performer and there are oodles better out there so it's hard to sit in judgement (though I did have the balls to stick a link in this thread to me singing!). There are people I hear who are no doubt good but who I really don't enjoy because of choice of material, or delivery, or tone of voice or whatever - I put up with them because they put up with me and as a group we do what we can for standards by trying to demonstrate a reasonable level. Most of the people who have stayed with us have got better so it seems to work. The feedback I have from people outside is that it's decent place to come and that the singing and playing is at least competent pretty much across the board.

I do think that there is a bizarre thing that goes on though which is to overpraise people who are frankly grim. From my own experiences I know that it is hard for some of us to get up and do things even if we feel reasonably competent and practiced, but occasionally someone will play a faltering simple tune on something like a mandolin badly and be met with that curiously exaggerated roar of approval that is normally reserved for four year olds or virtuosos. Always found that one weird. If they thn come back for the next five years and play the same old bollocks I do think you only have yourself to blame.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 01:06 PM

Everyone should be given a chance but it soon becomes evident whether there should be a welcome return, and that's the point of 'no return'. If you are paying for a performer then you expect certain standards. I have paid to see some performers (never having heard them before) and having heard them decided not to hear them again. As previously mentioned ,different strokes for different folks.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 12:29 PM

Bryn, agreed. That's concerts, though. The other stuff is the people who are tying themselves in knots on this thread... what I mean is that when you pay your money to watch a rock band, there's no-one worrying about raffles and residents and floor singers and when to go for a piss and how to eat your crisps and who'll be insulted about when you go to the bar and what the organiser thinks and who's on the committee and the age of the audience and whether Bert's sung a song Bill likes to sing and ... need I go on?

It's just a bunch of people listening to some music. It's ok!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 12:23 PM

Oh, for the simple joys of a folk concert . . . pay your money, listen to the act(s), get stoned, go home.

What's complicated about this ?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 11:10 AM

Oh for the simple joys of a rock concert... pay your money, listen to the band, get drunk, go home. Folk music is so goddamned complicated...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 11:05 AM

Well, Pip, it was a quieter than normal night and the bugger kept jumping in everytime there was even the slightest lull. WE don't have an MC - but the bastard will be jumped n the moment he arrives next week! I am auditioning jumpers this week, if anyone is intertested, we supply the step - ladder...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 11:04 AM

yeh five songs! it does seem a lot. On singers nights we have time for a couple each. One guest nights just the one. To actually hold the stage for five songs requires minstrelsy skills of a fairly high order.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:48 AM

Last night he turned up with his guitar again, and proceeded to murder 5 perfectly good songs.

Five? Five???

Did everyone there who wanted to sing get five songs? Did everyone there who wanted to sing even get one song?

I think the answer to this one is to be a bit more assertive with the MCing. Call on people one by one & see that everyone gets the same amount of exposure. At least that way the poorer performers don't get more exposure than the good ones.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:47 AM

well everybody's got better manners than us English. Actually I think it goes with the territory - peoples feelings getting hurt. others being being disabused of the idea that everything that they emmit isn't pure gold.

Sometimes I've been hurt, sometimes I've been the hurter. As you get older and fight more campaigns - you get less vulnerable. No matter how one walks on eggshells though, theres always some bugger taking offence more times than the Horse of the Year Show. Sometimes they nurture a grudge for decades cos you went for a wee at the climax of their act.

On the other hand, you can sing Abba, Abba dabba Honeymoon, unaccompanied songs in Gaelic, Woody Guthrie - anything you want, most places. and I rather like that aspect.

I think its nice when you can tell they are singing the song because they can relate to it and they like it. Rather than they are doing their duty to the great tradition of boring everyone shitless.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:22 AM

Maybe manners are better here in S.Wales. Nobody has yet told me not to sing, or that I'm crap.
I sing unaccompanied, sometimes with a sheet of the words, sometimes without. Sometimes I sing with my eyes closed (reviewing the coming lines!).
If I have to leave the room to get a pint or two (it has been known to happen) I don't walk out on some newby, or during a song, I wait until a singer I know is being introduced, and who I know will not think it's a comment on his singing/playing ability.

Different strokes for different folks!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:21 AM

Slight thread drift here but I once heard of a singaround session in which one of the participants claimed to be so shy and nervous that she played a tape of herself singing! This could be apocryphal - but considering some of the weird and self-indulgent crap that I have heard recently ... perhaps not?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 09:10 AM

Well, I don't see any club, wether its a singers club or whatever should be used as a platform for bad singers, why should it, and why should people have to put up with it?. Its fair enough to give new talent a chance and support and nurture it, but people who are bleedin hopeless should just accept that they can't do it and go and do somthing they can do.

I would love to be ably to draw and paint, but I accepted a long time ago that I would never be able to, so what is the problem?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 09:05 AM

I agree with Jim, standards are important. However the level of that standard must vary according to context.

A club which runs as a singaround for all-comers, and which exists to provide a aupportive environment for novices to gain confidence and experience must inevitably expect some poor performances, and these will be accepted by the audience as part of what the club is about. On the other hand, on a guest night when a floor-singer is called upon to support a top-flight professional, it is not unreasonable for the paying audience to expect better-than-average-amateur standards. On those occasions the inexperienced and incompetent should not be expect to be given a slot - unfortunately, far too many on the folk-scene seem to believe they have a God-given right to perform in all circumstances.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:41 AM

at risk of being attacked personally,yet again,and having my posts edited to mean something different.
I agree 100 per cent with Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:30 AM

Jim

we all have ideas. and we have to back them. But equally I think we must be aware that our ideas may be wrong, that new information may come up, or something....?

Be suspicious of anybody who's certain about everything. didn't Adolf Hitler and Margaret Thatcher's reigns teach us anything?

What was it Cromwell said, consider in the bowels of Christ, perhaps you are wrong....something like that. He had a point. Not a lot of self knowledge, but a point!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:30 AM

Hell's Bells if the standard of "instrument in tune" is applied then virtually all banjo players, about the same proportion of 12-string-guitar-players, and nearly as many other guitar and mandolin players are going to have to be excluded. God help trombones.

Or maybe you mean "close enough".

And bingo, we're back. What is "close enough for folk"?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:48 AM

My previous post on minimum standards refers. I am largely impressed by the arguments advanced in this thread, and would endorse Jim C's post of 05.08, supra.

Wanting to sing is not enough. The basic ability to play your instrument in tune ; to have a reasonable command of the words, from memory ; to empathise with and 'read' your audience

    (e.g., in a folk club which might specialise in contemporary
    song

    [dreadful term - don't misunderstand me - I am
    not condemning this style of song, just that descriptive term]

    there's not a great deal of point in singing from the
    Tradition ; and if a club be principally a club which
    specialises in song from the Tradition, it might not be a good
    idea to sing that song wot I wrote on a piece of shit paper
    during the first interval)

without it seems like you've the poker up your arse; are the minimum standards, for me. I add another criterion which you may read later in this post.

I have never understood this 'good enough/near enough for folk', even from Alex Campbell in his heyday. The music which we all, on the 'Cat, love, deserves a leetle more reverence than this approach ; and, no, I ain't saying that you have to be a fucking Segovia before you play guitar in a Folk Club.

I can cringe, now, thinking back to when I first started. As the result of having had a "Sam Larner" moment (infra) I packed in playing bass guitar in a beat group (that ages me, don't it ?). Having had my "Sam Larner" moment - seeing Martin Carthy at The Navigation, Lancashire Hill, Stockport, October 9th 1966, I borrowed a guitar, but hadn't a clue what to do with the two extra
strings :-).

It might be, it almost certainly is, that perhaps audiences weren't as critical then as they seem to be now. Note that I speak only for myself, here. Perhaps it is as well ; I can remember times I got down off the stage thinking "I made a right balls of that and I don't half feel a big tit because of it".

I think, though, that by dint of hard graft and much practice, and a burgeoning love for songs from the Tradition which endures to this day, I did attain the minimum standard (above, and Jim's post of 0508).

Another part of the minimum standard, again, only for me : If you have an ego, the folk scene ain't a good place for it. I have heard Ewan McColl described as having an ego. I never saw this - respect and love of, and for, OUR music, yes ; and the expectation that those who had come to share it, when he and Peggy were in concert, would by their sheer presence, share that love and respect.

At the risk of thread drift, I have noticed that kids, dogs and farts have one thing in common : everyone thinks that their own are wonderful.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:21 AM

I think in some ways, its to do with how much music is available these days. You can get most kinds of music on Youtube nowadays and - there ia lot of music available on podcasts, budget cd's etc....

But in the folk clubs of those days - if you met someone who had mastered or who was attempting to master a Bert Jansch song, or a Martin Carthy melody - it would be of genuine interest to meet someone else from another region of planet folk - the rest of the world was anaesthetised at home listening to the Val Doonican show.

Automatically you were brothers under the skin - because of your presence in a folk club - it was like a meeting of subversives and extra terrestials. The traddies broke all that up with their theories of having an exclusive vision of what is folk music. But I still feel the same way a lot of the time - we are still the last best hope of the world..

Nowadays - you can get any amount of recherche stuff sitting in front of your computer. The main thing about the people in folk clubs is - have they had the decency to at least try and not to bore you fumbling about with some unrehearsed crap - which they expect you to applaud and appreciate, because they once had an Abba or a Fred Jordan album. Really if they know most of the words and some of the tune - its about as much as you're allowed to expect.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:20 AM

"PS Alex Campell - I remember him vomiting over the piano at MSG - now there's applying standards"
Come to think of it - it was applying carrots and turnips.
I'm with Silas (again)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:12 AM

Well, I'm gutted.

We had a guy who had been banned by the landlord of our pub from singing as it was driving his customers away (and our members). He is actually a pretty nice guy, but he can't sing and he can't play.

He has been turning up regularly as a member of the audience and it has been nice to have him there in that capacity.

Last night he turned up with his guitar again, and proceeded to murder 5 perfectly good songs. As soon as he starts the room empties, people go to the bar, the toilet or outside for a fag - its is so obvious yet he seems not to notice at all.

What would you do in this situation. I think I am going to have to tell him bluntly that he cannot be allowed to sing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:05 AM

WLD
Why is applying standards to what you do and like equal 'doctrinaire'?
Please explain.
Jim Carroll
PS Alex Campell - I remember him vomiting over the piano at MSG - now there's applying standards
Jim Carrol