Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:51 AM

Dave, presumably the Snail has workshops at his club,to give performers the opportunity to improve.
I cant think of any other reason why someone would put workshops on,so a poor singer might have an opportunity to improve if he turned up at Snails workshops.
the problem as I perceive things here[on this thread],is that The Snail is too concerned about his abilty as a member of some imagined debating society,and scared he will lose debating points.
I know, I have in the past been pursued mercilessly by The Snail.[see Dick Miles Jazzsinger thread]on and on and on,being pursued by the snail is rather like being bombarded by a boomerang.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:39 AM

BTW - I think bad singers or poor performers may be misleading here. I suggest we stick to 'non-improvers', 'serial song stranglers' or 'complete no-hopers'. So as to distinguish those who make the odd mistake, as we all do, from those who have no musical skills to start with and then never get better.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:23 AM

Well, Bryan, you continue to ignore my posts of 16 Nov 08 - 02:18 PM, 16 Nov 08 - 04:11 PM, 17 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM, 17 Nov 08 - 12:34 PM and 17 Nov 08 - 07:57 PM but while I'm waiting for you to respond to that I'll have a go at what I've got. :-D

You happily accept that there is the occasional poor performer at other clubs. You, quite rightly, say you cannot solve other clubs problems. But surely that is what this is all about isn't it? Helping each other. The Lewes Arms Folk Club is obviously very well run and advice from an organiser of such an excellent establishment would be more than welcome.

So, I'll try again, Just what would you do with a poor performer who failed to improve?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:12 AM

Will, that is spot on.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:56 AM

To read, or not to read: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the club to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous memory,
Or to take arms against a sea of muffed lines,
And, using crib sheets sing them? [Umlaut]

There is a weekly folk club in deepest Sussex - not a million miles from me - where, on alternate weeks, the evening is "open stage". Roughly 99% of the audience - say around 80 people - are regulars and around 20 of them will probably do a spot (2 songs) on these nights.

The majority - not all - but around 50% of those performers bring their music, place it on the stand, and then perform. Mainly not very well. Sometimes the percentage is higher. I can actually put up with inadequate singing, poor instrumental playing, lacklustre performance, etc. But when that is coupled with having the chords/words/dots in front of you - that's when I put down me pint and say "Enough is enough". Surely to God, if you know the club, if you know the people, if you know the form and that you will get 2 songs and no more, then does it not make sense to take the trouble to learn your two songs for the night?

When I first went to this same club - around 25 years ago, there wasn't a music stand in sight. When I started performing in clubs - over 40 years ago - there was never a music stand in sight. But - 25 years later on, this club audience seem not to care. Everyone's "fantastic" - everyone's "super". Supine is the word I'd use, but there you go.

Have I ever used music? Yes - when playing for around 6 years in the late 1970s with a mainstream jazz band, where I compiled a "real book" of around 400 or so jazz standards. The band was regularly visited by players who wanted to sit in - and who would choose what they wanted to play (players like Humphrey Littleton and George Chisholm), and I just wasn't able to recall every one of those standards without a quick peek at the book.

But I have never used crib sheets in folk clubs - not ever, not never, not nohow. Not as a floor singer or as a guest. I simply believe that, if you know you've got the opportunity to sing one or two songs at the most - then learn the buggers! Have I ever forgotten words or chords? Of course - because I'm relatively human. But you learn to get round it - you can stop and make a joke about it - busk the lines and think "sod it" - and so on.

So my performance yardstick for beginner floor singers would be: Learn at least 1 song so that you can perform it on the night, to the best of your ability, from memory. Record it, if you can, and see what it sounds like played back. Perform it to a friend or friends - or to your Mum (!) - get some feedback. In short - just do some necessary and preliminary work first, which will help your performance and give more pleasure to your listeners. I can still remember my shaky guitar playing and equally shaky voice from 1965, when I performed for the first time at a student club in Leeds. I was absolutely nervous, had lost sleep the night before thinking about it - but it never occurred to me to use a crib sheet.

Just my 10 penn'orth.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:16 AM

its a 'B' cause.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:12 AM

ah yes, which cause would that be?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:54 AM

If you haven't made any 'progress' after 900+ posts I think its a lost cause.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:27 AM

Well, Jim, you continue to ignore my post of 16 Nov 08 - 08:48 AM but while I'm waiting for you to respond to that I'll have a go at what I've got.

I have repeatedly said that this is not a discussion on the Lewes Club policy but a general discussion on what happens in folk clubs;

You also said -
If you have written into your policy that the criterion for being allowed to sing is wanting to do so - yes, you are, if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing.

and repeated the accusation a number of times saying - "explain how you are not" so it appears we ARE discussing the Lewes Arms Folk Club policy (not Lewes Club please).

I don't doubt for a moment that there are poor singers at other clubs, some people seem to take a perverse pride in saying how many they have got, I'm just baffled as to why you seem to be using it to justify your criticism of the LAFC.

You use the term "adequate to excellent" - do you consider singers who can't sing in tune and are unable to communicate the words 'adequate'?

No, I meant people who, at the very least meet your minimum requirements but are, perhaps, a little uninspired.

But you don't have the problem of non-singers turning up - what's to work?

Have you paused to consider why we don't get non-singers turning up? Could it be BECAUSE of our policy as part of our philosophy and attitude? Could it be that our way DOES work?

is it still a case of 'if it doesn't happen at Lewes it can't exist?'

Now, now, Jim., don't put words in other peoples mouths. Not saying anything of the sort but I can't solve other clubs problems for them. All I can do is describe what we do and the results we get in the hope that others might find it useful.

Now, if you'd just like to comment on my post of 16 Nov 08 - 08:48 AM, perhaps we can make some progress.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:52 AM

I don't believe it says anything of the sort, Richard, and Jim has stated quite categoricaly that he would not ban anyone. I also believe that the act of singing publicly carries the responsibility to do it well and I don't think people should be banned from singing altogether. I do believe that it is not in the best interests of the audience to have bad singers on during a concert they have paid for. If that is a ban then who can I get to represent me in the case I have against the Albert Hall, who heve banned me from performing with Martin Carthy?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:51 AM

Richard - if we get banned, its God's way of telling us we should never have bothered with the miserable sods in the first place.

In some cases, I just wish God had told us sooner and more forcefully - and without leaving room for ambiguity.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:50 AM

Jim Carroll said:-
I have repeatedly said that this is not a discussion on the Lewes Club policy

Which Lewes club might that be, Jim?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:42 AM

Quoth Jim   "the act of singing publicly should carry the responsibility of putting in the work beforehand in order to reach a fairly basic stage"

Sorry Jim, but that IS   "If you aren't good enough, I'm banning you".

It's all there is to it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:17 AM

Why don't we do what they do in Golf !?

As Derek Brimstone pointed out, in golf the worst you are, the more goes you get....

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:16 AM

Surely it's better to have the words on hand than dry up? Talking of which.....better get some work done.
No [imo] it isnt.
classical musicans,use music for different reasons.
1. The pieces are much longer.
2.there are instriuctions on the music regarding interpretation.
3.they are not all playing at the same time and need to have instructions[like 33bars rest ETC].

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:57 AM

Bryan, 16 Nov 08 - 02:03
This is the posting you want answering - here goes
"Are you actually saying that anyone new who turns up to a club and says they would like to do a floorspot should be allowed to do so?
Yes - though I would prefer the term 'encouraged' rather than "allowed" - one bite of the cherry as I have already stated several times.
"we already have a lot to do without setting up special arrangements for a need that we do not perceive....."
You have made clear that do don't have the problem of non-singers turning up, though you do seem to be having difficulty in believing that the rest of of have encountered it - in some cases often. What do you suggest that clubs do about it - so far, your idea seems to be, let them go ahead and practice in public.
Your attitude still seems to be - "doesn't effect our club so it doesn't exist"; not my nor other people's experience I'm afraid.
"I cannot be held responsible for what happens at other clubs."
I have repeatedly said that this is not a discussion on the Lewes Club policy but a general discussion on what happens in folk clubs; if you want a discussion on your club policy, start a separate thread.
"Nobody has "poor singer" branded on their forehead..... We would give them floor spots of course. What would you do?"
Again, I have answered this "one bite of the cherry and ask them to put in the work", plus offer of help. From the beginning the question has been about non-singers who persistently turn up.
"What would you do if a single singer who couldn't sing persistently turned up expecting to sing?" "Give them their spot, confident in the knowledge that, by sharing a venue with all the other floor singers that they heard over the evening, varying from adequate to excellent."
In my experience it is extremely debatable whether the best place for singers to learn to sing in tune is in front of an audience - from the point of view of both the singer and the audience. You use the term "adequate to excellent" - do you consider singers who can't sing in tune and are unable to communicate the words 'adequate'?
"We do what we do and we find that it works......"
But you don't have the problem of non-singers turning up - what's to work?
It is the responsibility of club organisers, to the audience (paying or otherwise), the residents and the music to see that what goes on at clubs it to a standard that can be appreciated and enjoyed; sorry, can't understand how people can enjoy consistently poor singing, which is totally unnecessary if recognised as such and worked on.
There, been right through your posting - now you are free to respond to mine - or not, as the case may be.
I assume from your last posting that you believe that I and others on this thread are inventing our experiences regarding poor singing in clubs - is it still a case of 'if it doesn't happen at Lewes it can't exist?'
Richard;
"If you aren't good enough, I'm banning you"
I have never said this, nor would I - it is not within my power to 'ban' anybody', even if I wished to - which I don't. I have explained throughout this thread how I would deal - and have dealt in the past with singers who were having problems; 'banning' has never come in to the equation.
I find your accusation as offensive as I am sure you would would find mine if I were to suggest that you would take every second good singer out into the yard and execute them because "there are too many masters".
The value of this discussion lies in the fact that it is and exchange of ideas between people who care enough about the music to want to do something about it - snide remarks really don't help.
While I'm at it - wouldn't it be a little considerate to confine our arguments to this thread and not let them spread to others on a totally different topic?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:50 AM

In all this discussion about 'music' it's easy to forget an equally important part – the 'folk'. In my book, folk music exists for the maximum number of people possible to enjoy, whether listening or singing. The folk club is a relatively new institution so, in a way, it isn't at the heart of the music. Some of my most enjoyable experiences have been impromptu sing-songs in people's house, pubs, at parties and in caravan awnings at festivals. Nobody worrying about who could sing well and who couldn't – just everyone enjoying themselves. It's a revival of this sort of communal singing that people like Jon Boden are trying to encourage. Yes, it's easy to mock when I say that folk music should be 'fun' – but what is the point otherwise?

I'm sorry, but I still don't understand the objection to song sheets. When I go to a classical concert, the orchestra and conductor have music in front of them. Maybe they should just practice more and memorise it. And when I once went to church (oh, alright, twice) we were given books with the words of the hymns in them. Nobody said we weren't allowed in until we'd memorised all the words. With the best will in the world, we all forget the words from time to time – I've stood up in front of an audience to sing I song I wrote myself and have performed dozens of times and, for some reason, couldn't remember past the first line. Surely it's better to have the words on hand than dry up? Talking of which.....better get some work done.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 07:57 PM

I'm just back from Mike Canavan at Swinton with support singers, Me (one very quick song), Double Trouble (2), Gary and Vera Aspey (3) and Carol Jones (2). It was an excellent night but there were some people there who I just could not not get on. Even so we did not finish until 2350! Apologies to those who did not make it.

I am still waiting for the answer to my question. Bryan, what would you do with a singer who failed to improve? Do you not believe that they exist? Why not? There is enough evience. Or are you not answering my question for some other reason?

Cherrs

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:55 PM

well Rosie,
Paul Simon may have done well for himself,so has Daniel O Donnell,popularity does not necessarily equate with quality.
I wouldnt bother to see Paul Simon,but that a matter of taste, he is certainly competent,and his songs are popular but so is D.O.D..
you asked me a Question, I gave you the truth,no one sang from crib sheets,so why is it necessary now?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:51 PM

Jim Carroll

Sorry Bryan, help me out here; what points in the posting you mentioned have I not responded to

Um, all of them? Help me out here. Point me to where you have responded to any of them. In particular, what is your response to my assertion that organisers, performers and audience are not separate groups but overlapping categories within the same people and what you would do if a group of unknown people turned up at your club (if you ran one) asking if they could do floor spots? (Assuming they didn't have "Poor singer" branded on their foreheads.)

Do you not believe those of us who have said we =have encountered bad singers frequently?

Please explain why the policy we operate at The Lewes Arms is responsible for the "large numbers of extremely bad singers" which apparently infest the clubs you attend. Strange, I go to other clubs but I haven't met them there either.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:30 PM

Hmm, well seeing as Paul Simon, has done rather well for himself, it'd seem that kicking him out of the club, was something of a faux pas? Kinda like the local pie and mash shop rejecting a michelin starred chef? Not for the first or last time of course... Anyways, I think that the inability to allow a new singer a bit of a confidence boost with a discreet word sheet, is a little stiff. But fortunately of course, not everyone thinks alike. There is gladly a middle ground, as is indeed being vibrantly opinioned in threads such as this.. ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM

Sorry Bryan, help me out here; what points in the posting you mentioned have I not responded to; I may have missed something but as far as I can see I have covered them all a number of times.
"Where are these people? They certainly aren't at the Lewes Arms."
Do you not believe those of us who have said we =have encountered bad singers frequently?
Richard;
Are you assuming that those expected to put in the necessary work are going to refuse?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM

I did not say they were,but it can be arranged.,how many do you want and how much do you pay
Rosie I have not forgotten,
when I was a newbie,nobody sang with words they would have been laughed off the stage,we practised and rehearsed hard,the competition was stiff to get a floor spot,standards were high,there were floorsingers like Paul Simon etc.,in fact he was turned away tat the rising sun in Catford,the organiser DaveCooper said I have seen you before, I dont like what you do,on your bike[or words to that effect]

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:02 PM

Sleepy Rosie, come to the Lewes Arms where you will find an appreciative and supportive audience.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:36 PM

Captain Birdseye

large numbers of extremely bad singers

Where are these people? They certainly aren't at the Lewes Arms.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:32 PM

Jim, my outburst of frustration was not because you have disagreed with what I have said but because you have totally ignored it. Please respond to the points I made in my posts of 16 Nov 08 - 08:48 AM and 16 Nov 08 - 02:03 PM. Then I will answer your questions.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:13 PM

Quoth Jim   "the act of singing publicly should carry the responsibility of putting in the work beforehand in order to reach a fairly basic stage"

Sorry Jim, but that is "If you aren't good enough, I'm banning you". It's all there is to it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:09 PM

Quoth Jim

"We don't say folk singing requires no standard,"
By saying that all it takes is the desire to sing, you ARE saying that singing requires no standard"

Funny, when I said on the "folk voices" thread that that was what you were saying, you gainsaid it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 02:54 PM

A quickie here in response to Captain Birdseye. I don't wish to be rude, but how long ago were you a 'beginner'? For me, though I do set the songs I'm learning to heart - simply because I genuinely want to do it for myself as much as anything, there is the whole 'first night nerves' thing. Even the best actors freeze up on stage. Pethaps a little flexiblility could be allowed for the genuinely enthused newbie, who may be anxious the first few times they attempt to sing in public. In the last couple of months I've set around a dozen or so songs to heart. I've sung those to small audiences with very brief glances to word sheets at anxious moments. An experienced performer may forget what it's like to be a newbie? A thorticle.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:18 PM

this is the problem,if clubs allow large numbers of extremely bad singers,[tone deaf,unable to hold a key],without offering workshops,the singers will not improve,the club will suffer,and the music will suffer,in as much as it will not be an enticement to listeners because the standard is awful.
if I was running a club,I would allow singers providing their instruments were in tune,they could hold a key for the length of a song,that is a pretty low standard,I do not expect amateurs to be as good as professionals.
I prefer if they didnt use word sheets,particularly on guest nights,a goal for new singers to aim towards,to try and work hard to memorise one song for a guest night,its not asking much is it?
if they dont want to do this then they dont sing on a guest night,people pay more money on guest nights,so its not unreasonable to expect a better standard.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:09 PM

Bryan,
"What am I supposed to do, Jim, when you don't seem to have taken on a word I've said?"
There appears to be a built-in arrogant assumption here that because you've said something we all have to agree with it, otherwise we either can't have been listening or are prejudiced. Sorry Bryan, you simply haven't made your case, simple as that.

"We don't say folk singing requires no standard,"
By saying that all it takes is the desire to sing, you ARE saying that singing requires no standard – what about holding a tune or remembering, understanding and communicating the words, are they not essential basics to singing?

"withdrawal of privileges"
Evocative and misleading language again. Nobody is advocating the "withdrawal of privileges"; we are suggesting that the act of singing publicly should carry the responsibility of putting in the work beforehand in order to reach a fairly basic stage – well within the reach of virtually everybody, or don't you think so?

"We do what we do and we find that it works."
As I said earlier – it all seems to be academic as far as your club is concerned; you have consistently told us that you don't get non-singers turning up asking to sing, so what you are advocating is that the rest of us tolerate what you don't have to.

"....and blame our policy at The Lewes Arms for poor standards elsewhere."
Once a gain, total misrepresentation of what we are saying. My/our opposition is to the idea that a singer doesn't have to reach a basic standard before they are asked to sing (once, of course, it has been established that they are unable to sing – "one bite of the cherry"). It may appear so to you but Lewes isn't the centre of the universe and NOBODY has suggested that your club is responsible for poor standards elsewhere – as you have assured us, your club doesn't have the problem of sub-standard singers turning up and asking to sing, so your argument is an academic one. This is not a discussion of the Lewes policy, but a general one of basic principles and standards.

".......stupid remarks by Matthew Parish. Who cares?"
I do. I have no idea of who Mathew Parrish is so I don't know with what authority he speaks, but I do know that public statements such as his are an indication of how our music is regarded outside of our own folkie world and have done much to create a disregard, and even a contempt for our music and have played a major part in keeping it off the media – or am I mistaken; does folk music get a regular and fair airing on television and radio and is it respected in the 'real' world? The disturbing thing about Parrish and his fellow knockers is that in many cases their criticisms have some foundation. If we do not respect our music enough to expect singers to be able to sing in tune before they appear in public, how the hell can we ask others to?

Throughout this thread, the arguments of those of us who suggest that standards are necessary have consistently been misrepresented, distorted and exaggerated, often deliberately I believe. I can't speak for anybody else, but, for what it's worth, this is a summing up of my argument, which hasn't altered because nobody has put forward a half decent one to counter it – on the contrary, the somersaults and distortions that have been used to undermine our case have strengthened my opinion that there is no argument for putting on singers who cannot yet sing.

From the point of view of the audience:
Nobody should have to listen to (or pay for) bad singing when, with a little effort on the part of the would-be singer, and with the help of the residents, their singing can be brought up to a reasonable (basic) standard. What is the hurry to sing in public; surely it is to the advantage of all concerned for a singer to get the basics under The position should never arise in a club that, when certain singers begin to sing, people slope off – to pee – to fill their pints – or simply to get out of range.
It is a sad fact that audience members, particularly new ones, will remember bad singing as much as they remember good singing; if not more so. Put on inept singing and your club stands a fair chance to be branded as a place for bad singing, no matter how good the other singers are – seen it happen and have on occasion been guilty of making such judgements myself in the distant past.

From the point of view of the other residents.
Anybody who has appeared with a singer/singers with basic problems must have experienced that legs-crossing embarrassment, both on behalf of the singer and of the club you are trying to promote. I've known it totally spoil an evening and have heard residents apologise when it happens. With a little preparation it simply isn't necessary, so why put anybody through it, the new singer included?
How are the residents and regulars expected to react to bad singing? Do they applaud riotously, thereby persuading the aspiring singer that what they have just done was the best thing since the invention of the wheel - so keep on truckin' – no need for any work – see you next week?
Do they clap politely, giving the impression that the singing was 'well – ok, leaving them in limbo and not knowing where they stand?
Or do they go down for a pee and a pint and pretend nothing happened?
Or what?

From the point of view of a new singer.        
What on earth difference can it make whether a singer appears tonight or in three of four weeks time when they have managed to put in the work and taken advantage of the assistance that any self-respecting folk club has to offer, which should include confidence building and relaxation to overcome nerves?
It has always seemed to me that putting a new singer before they are ready is like throwing somebody into a swimming pool in order to teach them to swim – sure, some might make it back to the side, but what about those who don't – let the buggers drown??? I'm sure that I'm not alone in having experienced the feeling jeeze – why did I do that and why didn't some bugger stop me?

Answer these questions Bryan and you might go some way to persuading me that you have something to say.

More to be said, but this is far too long as it is.
Jim Carroll
PS Bryan,
"Jim most certainly has suggested that such performers be required to accept tuition or attend workshops before being allowed to sing again."
I suggested no such thing - I did say that any singer with basic problems should overcome them before they became regular singers at the club no matter how they did it - workshops are an alternative, certainly not a condition, as were one-to-one work with other residents, or simply sitting at home with a recorder until they got it passably right - please don't distort what I have said.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM

Captain Birdseye

this is a completely irrelevant comment,no one suggested that attending your workshops were a pre condition for doing a floor spot.

You appeared to be linking our workshop series to the "problem" of persistently bad singers. Jim most certainly has suggested that such performers be required to accept tuition or attend workshops before being allowed to sing again.

however you have a set up that many other clubs might be jealous of,the opportunity for folk club members to improve.

Thank you. Perhaps you understand why I am a little peeved to be told that our policy is crass and that we are championing crap singing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:46 PM

They are not compulsory and attendance is not a pre-condition for getting a floorspot.
this is a completely irrelevant comment,no one suggested that attending your workshops were a pre condition for doing a floor spot.
however you have a set up that many other clubs might be jealous of,the opportunity for folk club members to improve.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:34 PM

Brain dead prats who disagree with me........ oooo controversial or what !! Just when the thread was recovering from a surfeit of mis understanding??!!
Re Richard Bridge's experience ( choirmaster ) I was given an induction tour of the local Grammar school ( 11+ and all that) and because I couldn't span an octave? was told I would be taking Science and not Music.
My take on folk clubs now is to just enjoy a live performance, some are better than others but if the artist is being paid to perform then Jim's expectations apply.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:34 PM

Ever feel like you are being ignored? :-D

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

Captain Birdseye

Snail,why does your Lewes folk club run workshops?
is it not to help improve standards?

Of course. We want to do all we can to help people improve.

Again let me refer you to my post of 16 Nov 08 - 02:03 PM, paragraph starting "Are you actually saying that anyone new who turns up to a club..."

They are aimed at anyone who wants to improve from whatever starting point. One of our fiddle workshops had seven violin teachers amongst the attendees.

They are not compulsory and attendance is not a pre-condition for getting a floorspot.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 10:50 AM

Snail,why does your Lewes folk club run workshops?
is it not to help improve standards?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM

In response to John R's comments, I'll repeat one unanswered one, Bryan.


The Snail 16 Nov. 2:03PM
confident in the knowledge that, by sharing a venue with all the other floor singers that they heard over the evening, varying from adequate to excellent, they would improve.


Me (David el Gnomo) 16 Nov 2:18PM
What if they didn't? It is not a rhetorical question, I've see that happen! To coin a phrase I just saw somewhere... Come and see if you don't believe me. :-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:12 AM

Went up to a London cabbie the other day and said "How do you get to the Albert Hall?"

He says, "Mate, you've gotta practice!"

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:00 AM

"GUEST,Jim Knowledge"
I take it from your accent that you are a London cabbie - in which case - couldn't have been me - I couldn't afford the fares they charge there - nor the time it takes to drive all rahnd the bleedin' ahses before they get you to were you wanna go
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:58 AM

I `ad that Jim Carroll in my cab the other day and `e looked well beside `imself.
I said , "Whereto Jim?"
`e said, " The nearest chemist you know. I need some Paracetemol."
I said, " What, you got a `eadache or something?"
`e said, "Nah, I did a floor spot in a club last night and the bloke who runs it came up to me and asked if I wanted to go to their singing workshop. I said `What, to show `em `ow its done?` `e said, `Nah, to join the class!!`"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:41 AM

John Routledge

Are they likely to get a response.

I thought I had given one. See my posting of 16 Nov 08 - 02:03 PM starting from where I quote Jim Carroll as saying - It is perfectly feasible that a number of poor singers descend on a club

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:26 AM

Snail - I have no doubt that what you do works in your club and as far as you are concerned that is the beginning, middle and end of the matter.

In the world outside your excellent club however in some instances applying your strategy would not/does not work.

This is why several people have asked what exactly would you do in the scenarios described regarding improvement of singing standards.

Are they likely to get a response.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:37 AM

Jim Carroll

You mean roll over and agree with your somewhat dodgy contention that folk singing requires no standard (apart from the desire to perform) before being rolled out before an audience, paying or otherwise?

What am I supposed to do, Jim, when you don't seem to have taken on a word I've said?

We don't roll singers out before an audience, we give members of the audience opportunities to perform. We don't say folk singing requires no standard, we say that we trust our floor singers to share our love of the music and set the standards for themselves. We try to lead by example; our own to the best of our abilities and that of the guests we book so that people will practice because they want to not because of some threat of withdrawal of privileges.

As I have said, "We do what we do and we find that it works." You seem to concede this when you say -

"I have no doubt whatever that there are clubs where the standards are high enough not to give the impression that folk singing is artless and inept; nor do I hesitate, on the basis of what I've heard, to include your club among the better ones,"

Rather bizarrely, you then seem to try and blame our policy at The Lewes Arms for poor standards elsewhere.

If we are to try and raise the public perception of folk music, the first step is to start believing in it ourselves. A while ago, people got up in arms about some stupid remarks by Matthew Parish. Who cares? It's those who rubbish our music from within that are the greater danger.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:41 AM

"there are still people who should be fucking muzzled!" LOL! And players who should be forced to wear boxing gloves.


Anyway, perhaps the analogy used about restaurants applies to folk clubs - "people get the clubs they deserve".

Just to go back to the original subject of manners, there are a couple of things that IMO apply.

The first is turning up on time. OK I've got a bit of phobia about punctuality, myself, but if singers drift in throughout the evening, an MC who is anxious to accomodate everyone instead of telling them to F-off has to constantly rearrange the running order and this can be irriating for other singers.

The second is people joining in with their instruments. It's fine in singarounds but, no matter how accomplished the musician, it can sometimes be quite disconcerting for a singer who has developed and practiced a particular arrangement of their own.

The third is people who tune up whilst someone else is performing. Sometimes it's hard to resist saying, "shut the fuck up or you'll end up with that guitar/banjo/whatever as a enema".

Let's face it tolerance only stretches so far.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:38 AM

I thought it had become remarkably well mannered over the last few days!

But, I agree with the message from God, above. Manners come down to treating other people in the way you wish to be treated.

Don't distract others
Join in when required
Shut up otherwise
Don't subject people to unrehearsed twadle:-) (Except me...)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:27 AM

Bryan:
"if you would only drop your prejudices,"
You mean roll over and agree with your somewhat dodgy contention that folk singing requires no standard (apart from the desire to perform) before being rolled out before an audience, paying or otherwise?
Cap'n,
Sorry to disagree; I think this thread, apart from a few lapses on all our parts, has been remarkably bloodshed free, particularly considering its length. We tend to argue passionately about the things we feel passionate about - and that can only be a good thing - surely.
As for those braindead prats who disagree with me.....!!!!!
Best,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 06:35 PM

In my opinion,this thread is becoming ill mannered.
we all care about the music we like,perhaps it would be wise,just to agree to disagree,rather than engaging in point scoring.
to get back to the original point,here are my views.
it is good manners for a guest to stay and watch all the other singers,it is good manners for other singers to listen to other performers,it is good manners to applaud performers,it is good manners not to throw beer over people,it is good manners not walk out in the middle of someones song.
it really is quite simple ,treat other folkclub members in the way youiwould like to be treated yourself.yours sincerely, God.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 05:48 PM

Come on Gervase - Tell us what you really think:-D

...and I don't remember you watching my last performance!

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 04:33 PM

FFS! We are in danger here of disappearing up our own rear ends. No wonder the septics get pissed off with the navel-staring, OCD Brits!
For myself, I'd be happy to visit any of the paragons of perfection detailed on this thread, but I've not been lucky enough so far to have found them when the wind's in the right direction and the driver for the Variety Club Sunshine Coach for the Special Needs Singers hasn't left his GPS at home.
Ah well, one day...
Until then, I think I'll join Jim Carroll and Silas in the intolerant sad bastard corner, where we can take it in turns to smash shaky eggs to bits with toffee hammers and bemoan the fact that, for all the good intent on this thread, there are still people who should be fucking muzzled!