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BS: Poverty in the USA
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:59 AM "So if anyone expects that this dieing movement is going to lead the charge on the war on poverty, I wouldn't bet the farm on it..." - bobert That may be true at present but lets just say they are definitely keeping the fire burning. I belong to a union and we are active in educating the public about everything from child labour to same/sex relationships. We show up for every peace march and protest. In order for our movement to become stronger, we need more unionized workers. Unions take the lead when it comes to health and safety issues in the workplace. btw - The membership on these committees is voluntary. I'm with janie on this. My hope is that we will soon see a post-modern labour movement like no other. With increasing hours in the private sector, extreme stress and anxiety, a lack of job security, and unhealthy competition between employees (not to mention low wages)- its only a matter of time. Its time that we remind people that prosperity is dependent on the workers of the world. Business would be nowhere without their employees. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:52 PM Dickey, what I relayed to you absolutely happened. The reason employers fire folks for any theft whatsoever is to keep their options over. Another of the tenets of collective bargaining/contract administration is that discipline must be consistently administered. So they take that to mean stealing is stealing, with no mitigation of the consequences. That, of course, flies in the face of the "punishment must fit the crime". Makes for some interesting arbitrations. But the bottom line here is that workers, for whom job loss is often catastrophic in these times when living check to check is so common and necessary due to costs, should have an absolute right to a grievance procedure in which all mitigating factors come into play. The problem usually is that management wants to be accountable to no standards other than their own selfish, profit driven motives. It is a system of checks which prevents a return to times when whole families were destroyed at the whim of the capitalist. Janie, I have pondered on these issues for a number of years. I suffer from the curse of being a street level organizer who also works at very high levels of the political process. I have suffered the elitist fools who dismiss actions as "the way of it" while I look at the faces of the families that will suffer from decisions that they have no hand in. It has radicalized me in the late stages of my career, much like I was in the early years. Individuals have little or no power against the powers of capital, and the stratification of wealth demonstrates that clearly. I have returned to the street level, as I believe that is where the battle will be fought, and I intend to be there in that fight. While the institutions of labor certainly are in need of a tuneup, they still represent the best hope of combatting entrenched capital. We have the knowledge, and we have resources. And most importantly, we have access to the workers. If we can knock the dust off, and organize internally as well as externally, return to the values of our early days when we were a movement, and respond to the conditions, we will be an effective voice in the new world economy. If we fail, the consequences will be historic. Ramble off, Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:24 PM Uh, Dickey? Your ignorance is showing again. Noun 1. shill - a decoy who acts as an enthusiastic customer in order to stimulate the participation of others decoy, steerer - a beguiler who leads someone into danger (usually as part of a plot) Verb 1. shill - act as a shill; "The shill bid for the expensive carpet during the auction in order to drive the price up" cozen, deceive, delude, lead on - be false to; be dishonest with By definition an avowed union organizer who clearly proclaims who he is, what he does, and what his agenda represents is NOT a shill. You, on the other behave as a shill repeatedly in this discussion, just not a very effective one. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:59 PM My hope, Bobert, is not in the leadership of the institutionalized, established union. I refer you back to Mick's distinction between institutions and movements. Things are gonna get worse before they get better. Mick works to organize some of the worst paid and most exploited workers. Their numbers are growing as more jobs move off shore or are lost to technology. It won't be that long, perhaps in yours and my lifetimes, that enough workers have so little left to lose that the risks in fighting back no longer seem so daunting. In fact, the more decline in membership and power of the institutionalized union, the more likely will be the rise of a new, post-modern labor movement from the ashes. And you had better believe there are bright minds already pondering what the issues will be, what the social processes will be, what to make of, and how to deal with the present and probable future realities of globalization, how to think about the American labor market, values and ideas of social justice and social welfare in the context of globalization. Mick, would I be wrong to think you find yourself pondering on some of this at least every now and again? I'm not prepared to say that Labor will provide the over-arching vision, but Bobert, but without a strong, well-led post-modern labor movement, it ain't a gonna happen. Your 'Southern Man' will simply wreak havoc and destroy himself in the process of blaming and hating everything and everyone different from himself in the absence of leadership that provides a unifying focus for the rage. Labor has the best chance of fulfilling that role. a post-modern labor movement can succeed in organizing southern workers, which the old labor movement had not been able to do to a significant degree. another hosiery mill shut down today. In Mt. Airy. Theyare moving off shore. Janie I've rambled on too much, perhaps. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:37 PM There has to be more to the story than eating a bag of open M&Ms. I used to give stuff to employees to keep on the good side. Lend them trucks to move and so forth. Employees are not easy to find and keeping them is the trick, not firing them for stupid shit. There must have been some other friction. Mick must be a shill for the Union. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 12 Jun 07 - 09:51 PM AWG, that is the oldest trick in the book, and wasn't even executed very well. Try and shift the debate by claiming that you hit a nerve. Actually you didn't. I am used to shills, when they don't have a cogent response, to attempt to provoke response. Yes, I am a Union member. In fact, I am a Union Organizer of almost 30 years experience. Your comment about the man who got his job back, once again, shows that you have no interest in real give and take discussion. You have an agenda, and are attempting to win the day by playing to perceptions and half truths. Your program must receive funding from corporate interests. I would think a person with credentials could do better on the debate part of all this. So you have a problem with the concept of "just cause", do you? You think there is a problem with management having to justify the taking of a person's livelihood? That is the message you sent. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 12 Jun 07 - 08:29 PM I want Kipp to tell us how he ended up in his sutiation and wht could have been done to avoid it. His statement about "make it so hard for you to ever take charge of your life again" sounds like self perpetuation of poverty to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 12 Jun 07 - 08:02 PM Well, at the risk of soundin' like the true cynic that I am, I hold very little faith that the American labor movement is in any position to jump start the war on poverty... "Boss Hog" has hated the labor movement going back to the days of FDR and hasd made it his most single "cause" to cripple it... And, well, he's done a purdy good job of doing just that... The percentage of folks who are members of unions are at a 40 year low and unions have had to retreat from a position of power to one more of begging... The hotel workers strike in California a few years back was, IMO, "Boss Hog's" day in ther sun as an American labor union succumbed to a negotiated "two tier" settlement which meant that younger and future workers wouldn't get squat... The older workers caved and went along with the idea... Yeah, they rolled their own children under the bus... And over the last 10 or so years, outsourching has been the last coffin nail in the labor movement... That's my take... So if anyone expects that this dieing movement is going to lead the charge on the war on poverty, I wouldn't bet the farm on it... BTW, I will give credit where credit is due and "Boss Hog" has certainly put together one fine PR campaign to go along with his killing of all the true threats (Kennedy, Kennedy and King) to plans and where I hate him for doing what he has done to our country, I do have a healthy level of respect for his power to cahnge the course of current events... I find it incredulaous that we are still reading the results of "Boss Hog's" misinformation campaign that was spun 30 years ago about the evils of unions??? Incredulous... Best PR cmapaign since the Repubs did the hatchet job on the word "liberal"... And they say the media has a "liberal" bias... Beam me up... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:12 PM I have been a union member since I was seventeen. I was a miserable sonuvabitch when I joined and I'm still a miserable sonuvabitch. Don't blame the union for that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Ebbie Date: 12 Jun 07 - 02:34 PM Whoo- eee! Beware those who read and not comprehend... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: AWG Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:52 PM Big Mick, thanks for the compliment (I think). Sounds, though, like I hit a sore spot. Perhaps you are a union member ? Actually, I was (WAS) willing to concede that the theft example I made was a bit of an exaggeration to make a point that union members get away with murder (not literally, or maybe so), until you gave me the one example who was re-instated. If that one example you state was not a union member, that person would be kicking stones right about now. Thanks for making my point. By the way, you also seem like a guy with all his ducks in a row, but you are way off and baised on this union angle. Take care. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Kipp Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:58 PM Janie : As I could have quoted more of what you have said but this is exactly what I am talking about and to me it seems as though all the different angences are working together to keep people poor and dependent on the system. And it matters now at what point that a person enters this maze it's like get the money that you are entitled to you so we can help you ate the same time make it so hard for you to ever take charge of your life again we will take care of you just give US the money because we will do more for you. and if you live in our place you just have to be in by 5:00 PM lights out at 9:00 PM and you have to be out of here by a certain time in the morning. This is only one of several examples. ......So I know your are right on the money so to speak but this is one of the reasons that people are kept down so to speak Thank you I wonder, when you talk about people making big money in the industry that has indeed arisen around 'services' for the poor, if you are speaking of the privatization of traditionally publicly run programs? You don't say enough about that for me to know exactly what you are talking about. I know there are definitely businesses making money, and lots of it, who contract for job training and job development programs, and in mental health. It is the CEO's and the very upper level management of these firms who are profitting, and profitting nicely. I also know that New Jersey has some famously corrupt municipalities (don't know about county and the state gov't) where agents of the the government historically have made tidy sums from kick backs, etc. I don't think of these people and the management of these companies as 'do gooders.' I think of them as corrupt opportunists. I also know from my own professinal experience that the amount of 'spin' that goes into programs, public and private' that are touted as services for people in need are in reality something else intirely. I do not mean that no one in need is ever helped by these programs. However, the publicly stated mission of service is simply a cover. The real mission is something else intirely. Usually some combination of profit for a small number of top level management, irresponsible cost-shifting, and the creation of political capital for some one else. This is a whole topic unto itself, so I won't comment further on it at this time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:19 PM Kipp, Your spelling is just fine. I love what you are writing. Thanks for sharing your views, and please keep returning. Do you play an instrument? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Kipp Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:20 AM Hello I was asked what kind of sones I like and I guess that I'll respond I like all kinds of songs but perfer folk songs Songs of the people even more than Rock and Roll Rock music seems to have lost it I think but that is my opion. Folk music has more power to get across stories about the human condition. Woody Guthrie Pete Seeger I guess now that I am thinking of it so does some country music. Music has alway been the medium to convey the news and even today it can as the major media is not really reporting the news or what fits thier guidelines. So it is my opion that it is both the time for a revalution and a major folk move to make it's way back to the fore front as it has in the past we are in the need of some major social change not only here in this country but this is a start What does this have to do with poverty , It has a lot to do with poverty Folk music or for what we now call folk music has for most of it life has been about exposing the evils of socity. and in order for something to be done about thoes evils they have to be exposed. Folk music do what Charles Dicken did with his novels over a hundred years ago. The main message nothing has never really changed only the means to get around the laws that were meant to protect the working population and those in need Sorry about the spelling I only have a very short time here in the puplic library Kipp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 12 Jun 07 - 09:20 AM AWG, I have read most of your posts and you seem like a reasonable guy, pretty smart. Then you throw out that post, setting up the straw man argument, based on a flawed, demagogic premise. Just when I think "this is a bright person that I can have a productive debate with" you come up with this stuff. It says to me one of two things. You accept your own flawed perceptions as gospel, hence are not able to accept any evidence that is to the contrary. Or you have a bias, and only seek to advance that. Your example of the theft above is so flawed that it almost doesn't bear addressing. I am not sure where the idea that someone could get caught stealing, the proof is there, and they would get off, comes from. One of the basic priniciples in contract administration is that the employer must be able to prove their case before they discipline or discharge. Another principle is that the punishment must be appropriate. In virtually every case of theft I have had, where the management was able to demonstrate the theft with a preponderance of evidence, the termination was upheld. The one exception, where the proof was there, was an employee with over 20 years of service, found a broken bag of M&M's. He ate a handful and was observed by a manager. They termed him for theft. We were able to make a diminutive loss argument, and get the employee reinstated. But he was returned to work without backpay by the arbitrator, and he was off work for months. Facts are what you need to deal with. Every time you start to come off as something other than a troll, you inject these phoney premis arguments and end up looking foolish. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: AWG Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:15 AM To quote Janie..."Thanks, Peace. Most of the poor are laborers. And the Labor movement is first and foremost about human rights".....Forget that, Janie, not all laborers are in unions, in fact, I bet it is a minority. Most have no rights at all. And Dianavan...Unions are first and foremost about collecitng dues, everything else comes second, don't ever forget that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: AWG Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:04 AM Consider this...Company says "you stole from us and you're fired"...Union worker says "so what, take it up with the shop steward".....Company says (after talking to shop steward), "we're sorry, forgive us and please don't sue us"...Union worker says "okay, but don't let it happen again"...Company says "we won't".....That about sums it up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 12 Jun 07 - 02:00 AM Yes, Unions are first and foremost about human rights. Health and safety in the workplace is one of the major concerns. Then there are medical benefits and pension plans. Its about protecting people from harassment. Its about seniority and job security. Its about child labour laws. Most of all, its about what's fair. All workers should belong to a union. If all workers belonged to unions, we would have far less poverty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:43 AM Thanks, Peace. Most of the poor are laborers. And the Labor movement is first and foremost about human rights The social conditions that foster poverty and the the existence of a large number of the working poor are human rights issues. The labor movement is about much more than the hourly rate a worker is paid. The labor movement is about redistribution on wealth, health, and safety, to mname but a few of the issues that labor movements address that foster an underclass. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:24 PM OK by me. If y'all want to include labour then I'm all for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:22 PM Actually, Peace, I think a discussion of unions, especially their role as agents of social change, is very pertinent to any discussion about poverty in the USA. I believe a revived labor movement will be an essential element in effecting the rather massive changes in the current power structure, laws, and formal social institutions that are going to have to occur to effect social change on the scale that will be required. And I don't think the labor movement that will be an essential element in effective change in the future will look exactly like pre-globalization labor movements. That labor movement, (and the rest of us) are going to have to 'think globally, act locally,' to borrow a cliche that has merit. I'm thinking out loud here. I opine it is going to take a lot of thinking out loud to figure out the means by which important and necessary changes might occur to improve the social welfare of our society. ___________________________________o_______________________________ Mick's comments on the transformation of the big unions from labor movement to institution continue to intrigue me. Many of the social institutions that have arisen to promote the welfare of the people - 'the common man' - have their origins in social movements that began outside of the established systems and power structures of their time. Agents for social change challenge the institution. Thesis=the Establishment. Antithesis=the 'outsider change agent.' Synthesis=a reformed institution, or sometimes a new institution that may replace, or may be in addition to the existing social institution. Then, out of the sythesis arises a new or transformed set of challenges; A new thesis and a new antithesis emerge. This is the nature of the change process. And what the f*ck does this have to do with poverty? It is a framework for understanding and effective problem-solving that accepts dilemma. It acknowledges the complexity of the issues, and also that every solution, i.e. synthesis, brings with it another set of problems and issues. It leads to more "yes, and" thinking, and less "yes, but" thinking. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:23 PM Well, first of all, I'd like to direct a couple of questions to AWG, who has in my absence from Mudcat asked what I have done to help folks are poor... Apparently, you have not read this entire thread so I'm not going to rewrite pages of stuff I'ver allready posted about not only what I have done but what I continue to do... It's all been laid out here in this thread... I won't comment on your background of helping folks by renting them "low-cost" housing but when I was a social worker I had a lotta landlords who did the same who I set my clients up with but guess what??? These landlords weren't doing this because they wanted to help poor people... They made money... Only you can answer the question of what your motives were and, frankly, considering many of theings you have said here, I might no believe you if you were to say that your sole motivation was to help poor people... But enough of that housekeeping... Ahhhhhh, likie I have pointed out over and over, child care subsidies should be obne of our highest priorities in a war on poverty... Think about this: Over the last 40 years women have been forced into the work force so that families would have the "better life"... This wasn't about feminism... It was about money... But the "male dominated" sopciety has never held up its collective end and thus women have continued to the the "care givers" anmd even in middle class families the woman has had two jobs: employeee and care giver... America has never really wrapped its arms around the males chipping in... Oh sure, there are a few men who have gotten it but it isn't, what you say, a popular concept with most males... Now, when the male leaves the family (for whatever reason) you have now a family with only one bread-winner who is now having to perform the two step without the income... This, unfortuantely, akes up the bulk of America's poor... So here we have a woman, who is trying to play by these screwed up rules (legal and societal), working for low wages and trying to make ends meet and the rub is ***child care***... There isn't enough $$$ to pull it off... Most women want to do right by their kids but the system is failing them (and their kids) badly... The Welfare Refore legislation that was passed under Bill Clinton in 1996 was the most punitive bill that the American male dominated Congress has passed against women in my life time... It, in essenece, said something similar to what the Emancipation Proclamation said ion "You got nuthin', you ain't gonna get nuthin' but yer free.." Free??? Free to do exactly what??? The law forces woman to make very undesirable, anti-faimly choices... Thrwo in the decreasing pool on money for child care to assist these women, the Welfare Reform may be the cruelest piece of legislation ever passed in out country's history... I mean, you folks do the math... The minimum wage had lost 42% of it's value since 1969 and now we have a male dominated (Taliban) system that is intent on punishing women and their kids for what??? Playing by the rules??? This is a stacked deck... You wanta help??? Well, cloes the loophole that allows primarilly the rich to evade paying $100B a year in off-shore schemes anbd put some of that money in supporting women and their ***families***... This is what "family values" is all about... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:02 PM I know that, Mick. I have been union in one way or other since I was 17. I'm gettin' real near 60. Forty-two years. So, why don't you and I start a thread on the value of unions? History, need, necessity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 11 Jun 07 - 06:18 PM Peace, my friend, I am not trying to hijack the thread. Janie introduced unions as a solution to poverty, and also she criticized. She asked me to pop in and lend my perspective, given that I have been a Union Organizer for the best part of 30 years. I was our buddy AWG that made an assertion I just couldn't let stand. But I will return to lurking and only jump in if I feel the need. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:26 PM Well, folks... My mudum (modem) thing in the pudder crapped out 'bout 3 or 5 days ago an' so I just got as new one installed and back in the game... Haven't had time to read thru the the last 40 or so posts but will and be back later... Congrates, Janie, on busting the ***1000*** mark... BTW, folks, when I do come back I'm gonna to have more to say about how our country's pulling back from it's responsibilities for child care has contributed to the poverty mess we have gotten ourselves into... Later... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:50 PM What if Kipp likes songs about oranges? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: AWG Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:24 PM We can't discuss unions, but it's okay to talk about what kinds of songs Kipp listens to. Very interesting. What if Kipp likes songs about unions ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 11 Jun 07 - 01:49 PM Kipp, what kinds of songs do you prefer? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: AWG Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:04 AM Nice post Kipp, very interesting and enlightening. Take care, and see you soon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Kipp Date: 11 Jun 07 - 10:43 AM I will go into more detail later but the one most interesting place is the shelter that I am in in Trenton. Everytime someone signs in at the shelter to get a bed for the night the government recieves money per person. We have to be in line before 4 o'clock every nightand we are out before eight in the morning we get two meals dinner and breakfast. I think that all the food is donated with a few exceptions. As I have said the goverment pays per person per night. we sleep in prision type beds there are thre showersand aproxinitly 80 people during the spring ,summer season. I can not exactly say for sure but it has been said that the amount the gov. pays is about35 to forty dollars per night. We do get clean sheets and sometime pillow cases and towels about the size a little larger than a hand towel. but this is not always the case for the last week or so the pillow cases has been missing. The place for the most part is run by the former thugs that have at one time stayed in the mission and are now in some program run by the missionWe have a Women CEO that runs the overall place and it is she that makes the money she is paid very well don't have the figures yet but am working on it. She get all kind of awards from this and that groupfor her humanitarianism (SP) All of which no one believes she deserves. She is in reality funelling the money from the shelter over to the other programs her pet programs that get the higher profile and makes her look good. I will tell more as it starts to get interseting. I have to take a breif monet here to let anyone know that does not that Trenton is the State Capital it was once a thriving industral city home to Ussteel American Bridge The Robling Wire Company that invented and made steel cable for suspention bridges. These companys together or sparate ly made some of the biggest and well known bridges in at least the USA. Trenton besides Stoke on Trent England were the poterty capitals of the world Trento up until the end of WWIIas potery was than mass produced Many of the imagrents that came to Trentom in the 1850 we from Stoke on Trent an the years to follow including my family. Trenton potery could compete with Royal Dulton at one time. My greatgreat grand father's stuff can be Found in the Metropolitan Museum in New York Now the bigest industrys in Trenton State Workers and the poverty industry which included transitional housing halfway housing drug and alochol treat programs abound hereand much more. Beside the meals that are given at the shelter there is a soup kitchen that has two meals per day monda through thursday lunch only on friday. and it is not open on Saturday or Sunday. On the week end mostly Saturday the churches take over Some saturdays there are more than one choice and all are very good meals run by very good people. The Major Catholic Church St. Mary's Cathdral provides meals on the lst tw Saturdays of the month starting at 9 o'clock coffee and donuts. The Salvation Army has coffee evey dayalong with newspapers frome eight in the morning until 4 in thwe afternoon there is a large screen TV the and tables to read or sit and talk to your neighbors at the tables they havee their rule and for the most part are enforced prople must sign in as they two get funding from at least the city if not more.no one is required to yet on a daily basis thre is a bible study is going on More later I am now in the local library using their computer from where I get my email and post to this message board I started by printing out the songs that I knes the melodys to as I am a folk singer. I have always had a think for songd about Hobo's they are still around the are now some of the homeless So long I'll post more later |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: AWG Date: 11 Jun 07 - 10:15 AM Sorry Peace, I don't even remember who brought up unions (Bobert, I think), but now that we can agree they are for the most part, lazy, we can get back to the subject at hand. Got that, Dickey?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 11 Jun 07 - 10:06 AM BTW, and I do mean this in no uncertain terms. I started this thread so that people who wished to discuss poverty could do so. If either of you guys want to discuss unions then please start another thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 11 Jun 07 - 10:04 AM Then have a look at management. If they'd been doing their jobs that stuff wouldn't have happened. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: AWG Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:59 AM Most probably the drunken union members. Exxon only hires them, it doesn't babysit them. At some point they should be expected to carry themselves in a competent and professional manner to the degree demanded by their jobs. Looks like they weren't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:46 AM Don't see what that has to do with unions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:45 AM Strange tale pointed to alcohol use on tanker In post-Exxon Valdez era, crew members still imbibe By ERIC NALDER SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER Sixteen years after Exxon Valdez Capt. Joseph Hazelwood's drinking habits became international news, another captain has been associated in court papers with alcohol use on a tanker in Prince William Sound. This time the case is even murkier than Hazelwood's. A galley worker said in a Texas court that she'd discovered alcohol use by the captain and other sailors aboard the tanker Polar California in May as it sailed toward Valdez, Alaska. After she reported it by cell phone to company headquarters in Houston, alcohol was found in her room. A friend said she was set up, perhaps for previously reporting a steward for drinking. The galley worker alleges she was taken off the ship in Valdez by ConocoPhillips human resources employees. There, she says, she was handcuffed and tossed into a mental institution for five days until a doctor said her condition was "unremarkable" and released her, according to court papers. Whatever happened -- and none of the parties is talking -- it isn't the behavior one desires on a 925-foot tanker approaching one of America's most highly secured locations, the terminus of the Trans Alaska Pipeline. "Wow. Well, that's frightening," said John Devens, executive director of the Prince William Sound Citizens' Advisory Council. The lawsuit -- which ended in a confidential settlement -- is one fragment of a picture the Seattle Post-Intelligencer assembled on continued alcohol use by tanker crews. Other aspects include union memos that mention alcohol and drug abuse, a crewman's account of an inebriated chief engineer and the recollections of bartenders in Port Angeles, where tanker crews can drink with considerably less worry about gate security than at the pipeline or the refinery ports...." http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/specials/oiltankers/217168_polardrinking23.asp Was Exxon at fault or drunken union members? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: AWG Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:37 AM Thanks Mick, I stand by each of the quotes you used. Except for maybe the last one. Funny you should bring that one up, got some suspicions of your own, do you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:49 AM Thanks for chiming in, Mick. I think your observation that the unions (at least the big ones) became institutions, combined with your discrimination between institution and movement, is both astute, and generalizable to all other dialectics around social welfare in general, and, in keeping with the topic of this thread, the conditions that lead to and maintain the state of being poor in particular. I phrase it like that instead of saying 'poverty' to acknowledge the millions of people and families in this country whose income and resources well exceed the official 'poverty line' but who are poor nonetheless. Gonna go cogitate in my dreams. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 10 Jun 07 - 07:40 PM Not trolling for reactions, eh? Let's take a look at these quotes from AWG: And this is from a cursory run through. I am sure I could find plenty more. You have a bad habit of making gratuitous assertions, blanket statements, etc. The fact of the matter is that union members in the States are some of the most productive workers. It is because of their apprenticeship and training programs. Folks with an agenda rely on stereotypes to make their point. You throw around gratuitous assertions which can just as easily be denied. How about you come up with some cites on union members? Or aren't you interested in the facts? If it weren't for the unions and their members fighting for healtcare and pensions, who would? If it were not for the unions and their members fighting for safe working conditions, who would? If it weren't for the unions fighting to protect the rights of injured workers, who would? Unions and their members aren't perfect. But they do have representation and rights. And they act in a concerted way. What management sycophants don't want to acknowledge is that without collective action, we would revert right back to the "black ball", company store type system we once had. In fact, after years of Republican controls, we have already started. While you are at it, perhaps you could justify your comment about Janie and Barry. You seem to me to be long on unsubstantiated comments, and ideas but short on any substance. Just my opinion. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: AWG Date: 10 Jun 07 - 06:50 PM Hey Big Mick, I'm not 'trolling' for reactions, sounds like you just want to play kiddies games. I'm looking for solutions, simple as that !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Ebbie Date: 10 Jun 07 - 05:06 PM lol There's our Mick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 10 Jun 07 - 04:51 PM First off, AWG, you are the one who started the "who does what" bit. Second off, I generally like Canadians, but not trolls, even if they are from Canada. Finally, there are those that work to improve peoples lives. They don't sit and pontificate on who is lazy, or who deserves help, or what kind is best. They get up every day, roll up their sleeves and go about the work. Some, like Janie, help folks work through problems and assist in getting them a start back on the road. Others work in the front end. I can't tell you how many times I have been with single parents, most generally women, who are working 2, and sometimes 3, jobs just trying to keep the bills paid and food on the table. These folks aren't lazy, but they are a victim of a combination of the system, other folks effect on their lives, and greedy employers who don't feel like health insurance is something folks should have. Because you are a Canadian, you can't relate to that as you have national healthcare. I know you are simply trolling for reactions here, but the subject is a serious one. The folks I see, the great majority of them women, are heroic in their efforts to work their way out of poverty. They might be undereducated, but they value education and try their best to influence their children to study hard and get ahead. But with the way things are stacked against them in the US, it is increasingly difficult. Oh yeah, ....... I forgot one thing ...... I am a musician so I will count this off ...... 4/4 time ....... ready? ....... 1-2-3-4....... bite me.Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:03 PM Thank you. And to top it off, I believe you. The issue of poverty is complex--hell, beyond complex. I don't think it's something that can be solved, because there are no quick fixes available, and the economic restructuring that would be necessary is beyond the means of most nations/countries. But individuals can be helped, and if that's the best folks can do then that's the best that will be done. I appreciate your answer, AWG. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: AWG Date: 10 Jun 07 - 01:58 PM Sorry, I don't want to dis-respect anyone's efforts to aid the poor, even though it seems some people may think that's what Ive done. It's just that everyone talks a lot about solving poverty but where is the action ? Kudos to anyone who helps, the rest is just lip-servie, imo. By the way, among other things, for 15 years I supplied low-cost rooms for rent for many people on welfare (who barely get enough to live on here), and people making minimum wage and students struggling to get an education. During that time I made next to no actual profit, and had more headaches than many of you will have in a lifetime. I know it's not much compared to Janie and others, but it's still something. I really don't want to turn this thread into 'what have you done for me lately'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 10 Jun 07 - 01:54 PM Troll alert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 10 Jun 07 - 01:52 PM You more than most here understand the economics of market fluctuations and their occasional relation to rents. Most poor people cannot afford to own houses so they rent. In places that have no rent control, life can be a cast-iron s o b. Rather than take Bobert and Janie to task, why don't you tell us what you have done to help people? As it is at this moment, you don't have one whole helluva lotta credibility. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: AWG Date: 10 Jun 07 - 01:47 PM I do plenty, thanks for asking. Also, I accept everyone's ideas without criticism or harsh language, however ideas don't solve anything unless they are put into action. By the way, poor people don't want people 'counselling' or 'comforting' or should I say 'patronizing' them. They want food and shelter and a better paying job with perhaps some help with daycare. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. P.S. I thought Bobert built houses. ...And that helps the poor how ?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 10 Jun 07 - 01:10 PM AWG - The question is what have you ever done to help the poor? Not all education happens in a school. If their were no Janie and Boberts, the poor would not have anywhere to turn. Its J and B who help them find available resources so that they can survive. They both know that in the U.S., survival is not enough to end the cycle of poverty and they are both advocating for better services and opportunities. What have you ever done, AWG? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Ebbie Date: 10 Jun 07 - 01:02 PM It appears that to you putting food on the table in front of the poor is your idea of 'helping'. Going to bat for families in need, connecting them to available resources, ensuring that no one falls through the cracks, advising them as to what is available, getting vouchers for emergency shelter, food, clothing, childcare- that and a hundred other things- oh, yes, it does help. I am semi-retired but in the past I have tutored - did you know that that too helps the "poor"? I think you are pulling serious leg here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: AWG Date: 10 Jun 07 - 12:54 PM Slick, Ebbie, very slick. However 'consult, consider, connect' doesn't put food on poor people's tables. Or give them shelter they can afford. Nice sound bite, though. I wonder which camp YOU belong in Ebbie ?? Seems like a lot of people have all the answers to solve poverty, and criticize others who's ideas don't match their own, but what have any of these people actually ever done to help the poor ? You know what they say about talk being cheap... |
