BS: joining the masons

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: GUEST,Me again
Date: 04 Mar 12 - 12:12 PM

Or even Jones's Ale.....

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Mar 12 - 11:59 AM

'...And the next to come in was the mason
All dressed in his funny old apron
All dressed in his funny old apron
And he had a peculiar tattoo
His trouser was rolled up to the knee
His breast was bare
Oh woe! Cried he
You try cutting stone dressed up like me

When Peculiar Ale was new me boys
When Peculiar Ale was new'

[Chris Sugden]

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Musket
Date: 04 Mar 12 - 07:40 AM

People are people and some are members of fraternal organisations, such as freemasonry.

I used to be a member of a charity that was perceived by some as being a fraternal organisation, and having American origins, it certainly did have a few rituals that some (though not in my area) performed. I used to be a bit uncomfortable when we were mistaken as such.

Mind you, not that I have anything in theory against members of a club and back scratching. Most political and community based groups can be just that, but at least Freemasons are honest about it..

So to the negative bits. There is a lot of pseudo religious mumbo jumbo, and it is rather disturbing to think that most leaders and opinion makers in The UK over the last few hundred years have happened to spend a night a week at their lodge. Also, many have interpreted their membership as granting them privileges that go far outside of membership. The truth or urban myth of each case is whatever it is, but sadly for most members, there have been some high profile cases of membership being abused and affecting decisions in court, in local government and in that sense, affecting you and I. I recall Derbyshire Country Council used to have on their job application forms two questions; Are you a freemason? and Would you be willing to relinquish your membership if offered this post? Despite the awful (and possibly not used nowadays for legal reasons) lack of freedom the council seemed to be pushing, it was sadly based on genuine occasions where membership had affected council decisions in the past.

You can't blame people either for viewing membership with suspicion. The secretive air that membership offers can be exciting for someone going into the craft, (as it is referred to,) but likewise, fuels suspicion especially where stories, both true and false, imply they influence the greater society.

Two things then. 1) They don't influence these days, even if they did once. In case nobody noted, public services are run by both younger people and women, neither of which will be influenced by silly old men. 2) If we are left with men getting together, muttering nonsense and then having a few pints, then good for them. Hope they get their rocks off to it, although it isn't for me.

Mind you, I have very good friends, both personally and in business, who are Freemasons and I have never felt paranoid in business for not joining them, despite a few offers.

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Greg B
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 04:29 PM

The reason Catholics are proscribed (by their church, not by the Freemasons) from being Masons is because the Freemasons have refused to submit their rituals and beliefs to the scrutiny of the Catholic Church.

And it is the case that the Knights of Columbus were founded to scratch the "fraternal lodge itch" which was present in men of earlier days.

Now, sadly, the Knights seem to have turned into an arm of the Republican Party in the US. Here in the Northeast, the KofC hall was a good place to go (if a member or a guest of same) for really cheap drinks. Also true of the Veterans of Foreign Wars and Oddfellows, and especially the Moose lodges.

Do many Masonic lodge have pubs for members only?

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: number 6
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 05:54 PM

"I can't even bring myself to comment on some of lunatic remarks by people trying to suggest they know something about the organisation.
Their postings only demonstrate a complete and utter lack of kowledge and a scary intolerance."

I agree ..... and I'm a Freemason

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: C-flat
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 05:46 PM

I sometimes perform a comedic song after our masonic meetings about "famous" freemasons. I wrote it after researching a little about the society and managed to cram a tiny fraction of the "names" I discovered into a few verses.
I won't bore you with the song but, from memory, some of the names as follows:- (with apologies for spellings)

Haydn, Liszt, Mozart, Count Basie, Louis Armstrong, Nat King Cole, Al Jolson, Gilbert AND Sullivan, Daniel Boone, Buffallo Bill, Jim Bowie, Samuel Colt, Gene Autrey, John Wayne, Davy Crockett,Clark Gable, Ernest Borgnine, Douglas Fairbanks, Peter Sellers, Bud Abbott, Roy Rogers, Mel Blanc,Lister (antiseptic), Fleming (penicillin), Jenner (smallpox vacine, Long (anaethestic), Walter Scott, Buzz Aldrin, Shackleton, Jackie Milburn, Arnold Palmer, Sugar Ray, Jack Dempsey, John Macadam (tarmac), Citroen, Chrysler,Churchill, Kipling, Voltaire, Pushkin, Alexander Pope, Mark Twain, Souza, Stamford Raffles, Jonathan Swift, Lipton (tea), Gillette (razors), Col. Sanders, Simon Bolliver, Cecil Rhodes,Harry Houdini, Sir Joseph Banks, Duke of Wellington,Burl Ives, Bob Hope,
Oh yeah, and lots and lots of very ordinary people, who won't ever be household names, like me!

Eclectic enough mix?

No doubt some good and bad people in the organisation, but in the main, I've met mostly good and made lifelong friendships from every type of background and profession. There would be nothing unusual about an unemployed labourer being "master" of a lodge full of professional people. A persons financial circumstances are not relevant. I'm a typical "average salary" rep and never closed a deal or won a contract as a result of my membership.

I can't even bring myself to comment on some of lunatic remarks by people trying to suggest they know something about the organisation.
Their postings only demonstrate a complete and utter lack of kowledge and a scary intolerance.

C-flat

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:13 AM

I do find it amusing that many of you who are bashing Masonary for being a Society with Secrets write in under a Pseudenym.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 03:56 PM

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Alan Day
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 03:21 PM

Peter one of the questions asked to a person joining Masonary at their interview is what do you expect to get out of it.If his answer is an increase in business ,or to improve myself financialy, then he will be black balled (not part of the ritual).
My son does more business in the local pub than I have seen in my Lodge.What it will do however is give you confidence to attempt those things which you may have thought you were not capable of.Many Masons become successful business men because of that new confidence.
If you do require more detailed answers than I am giving you please write or Email Grand or Provincial Grand lodge.
Like music it is no good going into it without being fully committed to see it through.
Thanks for the link Jeanie.Some of the sentences of the ritual are just wonderful and make the hairs on your back stand up.I am not a Masonic Historian, but some of the lectures particularly connected to the construction of Cathederals is very interesting.The subject could be a full time job if you were that way inclined but I am not.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 01:21 PM

Thanks for the PM Colyn. I'm now on the trail of a lodge not far away. I've already visited the grand lodge in London however, and they were not helpful with my questions. But they were perfectly open about the fact that membership would open up "networking" opportunities with people I might not otherwise be able to approach.

This is the constant theme of freemasonry. Someone above said "join - then start networking away" or words to that effect. And the Guardian article linked by Jeanie included this: "... she admits that Masons network in much the same way as any other society."

But it is not the same way as any other society. Manitas, few would join EFDSS to improve their business opportunities, and if they did they would be disappointed. More critically, many freemasons (unlike EFDSS members) still refuse to admit they are members. It's no good the apologists saying the graft and the cronyism and the secrecy ended in the 1990s, because many still join precisely for those things - and are determined to perpetuate those values.

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Jeanie
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 11:53 AM

Alan - I am indeed very interested in the historical background to the rituals and symbols and their links with the ancient mysteries. Following on from this thread and the article I read in the Guardian, I've been doing some reading around and have come across the "Droit Humain" organisation of "Co-Freemasonry" - i.e. mixed lodges of freemasons, which appears to put particular emphasis on the spiritual aspects and is strongly linked with the Theosophy movement and the theosophical view of life. Here is a link for anyone interested:

Very interesting.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Alan Day
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 09:02 AM

Jeanie all these peculiar things like having trousers rolled up on the initiation ceremony ,all have tradional reasons why they are done.To bear ones knee to the ground is actually anti Witchcraft.Laughable as other parts of the ceramony but if you are interested in traditions then very interesting
when you investigate them.The Ladies Lodges are not part of the Grand Lodge of England but have their own organisation.
Peter K if you are really interested then Google Masonic Lodges and County(Province) and you should find what you are looking for.The Province will put you in touch with a Nottingham Lodge.I assure you there will be one,probably in a building you drive past every day and never knew a Lodge was there.If you have problems contact me direct and I will find the information you require.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Jeanie
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 05:38 AM

As chance would have it, an article on Women Masons in the UK appeared in yesterday's "Guardian" newspaper. The full text is to be found HERE
and it makes very interesting reading.

I had always thought is was an all-male preserve, but apparently Freemasonry has been formally practised by women in their own lodges in the UK since 1913, but this was only made publicly known when the more open policy was adopted by Masons in general in the mid 1990s. There are apparently around 10,000 female masons in the UK.

This news was a revelation to me - but, from talking about this article with my daughter, it appears she has been under an even greater misapprehension about the Masons and their "secrets". When she was a lot younger she had heard me say that Masons roll up one trouser leg. She had also heard about the old north country "sport" of "ferret legging" (where men tie up the bottoms of their trousers, stuff ferrets down the top end, tighten the belt and see how long they can endure this. - The record, I believe, stands at over 5 hours). Somewhere along the line, she put the two together and until yesterday genuinely believed that this is what Masons met to do in secret: put ferrets down their trousers !

Her school until she was 11 was nextdoor to a Masonic Hall, and the school used the hall for various activities. She told all her friends about the ferrets and whenever they went in there, they would look to see if they could find where the Masons kept the cages.

In a way, I was sorry to disappoint her on that one. She could have carried on all her life thinking that was the big Masonic "Secret"........and, of course, there is at least one generation of children who went to that school who maybe will.

- jeanie :)

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 03:54 AM

EFDSS is a society within society! You can't stop people clubbing together for various reasons from networking to tiddlywinks, from your local Rotary, Lions or WI to the totem societies of the Tlingit and Salish. Outlaw them or disbar members from public office and they really will go underground.

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 09:25 PM

Peter K (Fionn)
It is unlikely that you will find Masonic Lodges listed in Yellow Pages, but try under Masonic Halls in your local phone book. As most halls are only open at the times of meetings very few of them have someone to answer the phone.
Please take the timie to visit www.grandlodge-england.org (sorry, I can't the blue clicky thing) and you will find a greaat deal of information. Certainly they will put you in touch with your local Lodge.
You can also book a guided tour round Grand Lodge, Great Queen Street, London, if you are so inclined.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 07:12 PM

I said "a society within society," Alan, and that is what freemasonry plainly is - and bound by oath, to boot. One does not need to "go along" to recognise that simple fact.

Apart from my reference to your "traditional penalty," which I made with my own tongue in my cheek, what did I say that was not based on fact? Indeed you seem to be acknowledging the truth of my comments with your readyness to put the blame on "rotten apples." Oh, and on the leadership.

It seems that there are no lodges hereabouts in north Nottinghamshire. At least, I've not managed to find anything in Yellow Pages. Where else might they be listed?

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Alan Day
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 06:32 PM

It has been said Peter that the secrets are readily available from books and you have taken great delight in stating a traditional penalty without knowing the basis for the statement and what it is all about.I have been in Masonary for over twenty five years I have not found a society within a society otherwise I would not still be a member.There are rotten apples in every box however and do slip through.A lot of blame can be placed on Grand Lodge (the Headquarters)for not publically explaining in the past what Masonary is about and the fine work they do for charity.This has changed in the last few years and open days and open discussions are now taking place.If there is one near you Peter go along so that you can base your argument on facts.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 05:50 PM

One apologist above said: "But folks do like to deal with like folks whether it's the local Morris team, golf club, Am Dram society where they meet or not." And this goes to the heart of it. Masonry in the UK remains, on the whole, secretive (unlike morris teams and the like) and thus it is possible for jobs, lucrative contracts or whatever to be steered towards fellow brethren without this interest being known or declared.

A "club within a club" is a parasite on the main body, as is a political party that operates within another political party. UK masonry is a "society within society," and is just as insidious. All credit to those who have foregone the privileges and dubious benefits of membership in order to fight against it - sometimes successfully, hence the declining membership.

But as I might be labouring under some misunderstandings here, perhaps I could apply to Alan or one of the other UK freemasons here for membership, so that in future I can speak with authority. (Just a detail, Alan, but how will you establish whether I have a criminal record?)

Q: Guest Richard H asked what the consequences would be of revealing the secrets.

A: TTOBTR* I'm afraid.















*Tongue torn out by the roots

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 03:52 PM

Doug....As possibly the only stonemason on mudcat, I am extremely proud that i have been deemed unsuitable to be proposed for membership of the Freemasons.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: DougR
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 03:44 PM

My Dad was a Mason and a finer, more considerate man of others I never knew. I'm not a joiner myself (of anything)but if the notion strikes you, do it. One might consider the critics who have posted on this thread might be a bit pissed that they haven't been asked to join.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: GUEST,J C
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 04:57 AM

If I had the opportunity I wouldn't hesitate joining the masons - I understand that they hold the secret of opening the ******* Mudcat Forum Page at first attempt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Alan Day
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 04:35 AM

No Brian, Masonary is free to all who want to join ,providing you do not have a criminal record and have a belief in a supreme being.Many sons of Masons do join, but it is certainly not a requirement.It is open to anyone rich or poor and you give to charity what you can afford without detrement to your wife and family.If you are interested in joining contact your local provincial branch and they will put you in touch with a Lodge near to you, or if you know a Mason tell him that you are interested in joining.You will be expected to have an interview to ensure you are a fit and proper person to be a Mason and if accepted will be asked for a joining fee.
If you are a business man and you expect that it will open doors for you forget it.More business is done over a pint in the pub than in Masonic Lodges
An earlier poster said that the rule has now changed and that a Mason can ask someone if they would like to join,I forgot this new ruling and I apologise for my error.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 03:53 AM

Try life first!!

Subject: BS: joining the masons
From: GUEST,Brian Swanson
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 02:09 AM

I mean does my dad have to be a Freemason in order for me to ever be able to enter?

Subject: BS: joining the masons
From: GUEST,Brian Swanson
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 02:04 AM

i think that if there was a group doing something good out there that they would have the right to do things which were seen by some people as "strange" however gods people have always been "strange" and these times that we live in are "strange" i have always been interested in masonry, unfortunatly my family will dissown me if i ever join, pretty much they look at masons as they do mormons, "join and your out, and now that i am 21 i feel like i actually have an opportunity, i almost attempted some sort of contact with a temple at 18 until i found out that sometimes you need to be 21.
my email is [e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 07:55 PM

that Mozart...... good banjo player - Eine Kleine Nacht Breakdown, Marriage of Figaro Backstep, Duelling Cosi Fan Tuti's

I bet he tried walking into the Ryman doing his funny handshake and a trouser leg rolled up saying any chance of a gig, on the knees of the mother....?

but I know for a fact, he never played The Opry.

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: GUEST,Goat king
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:44 AM

NOT me, matey!

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:43 AM

well ride a goat backwards

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Jimmy C
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 04:05 PM

I am not a mason, and I know very little about them except they do a lot of charity work for the needy. I have some friends who are masons and they all appear to be involved in a lot of community events all with a selected cgharity in mind, whether it be The Childrens' Hospital, Cancer Centres, Arthritis society etc. There may be some secrets involved at their meetings but I imagine it is nothing too significant or evil.
I am however a member of the Knights of Columbus and was very surprised at Joe's remarks about being thrown out of a meeting. I have never heard of this happening anywhere before this, in fact we have had guest speakers at our meetings and they do not have to be members. They are invited in when the meeting has started and they are given a time-frame to say their piece, then they leave,and the meeting continues. So Joe , please accept my apologies because it should not have happened.

BTW, there are a few chemotherapy stations and a beautiful glass stained window in the onconoly department of our local hospital, all bought and paid for as a joint venture between the Knights and the Masons. One of our previous mayors was a mason and always attended any function of the knights, especially the St. Patricks's Night concert. I had the pleasure of accompanying him when he got up to sing. All done in an atmosphere of friendship and a dedication to charitable works, so do not believe everything you read and or hear. There is a lot of behind the scenes charitable work that is not made public or even reported, all thanks to the Knights and/or the Masons.

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Alan Day
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 03:18 PM

Sorry I missed the last part of this discussion as I was in Hospital (not a Masonic one).Firstly I am not hiding behind a false name,if I want to write about a subject then I prefer people to know who they are writing back to and visa versa.
I agree that Masonary in general in the Uk is on the decline and the only way is for lodges to merge.I am in a very strong lodge where our membership is going up and I would like to add with young members who are enthusiastic and enjoy what Masonary has to offer.
I will leave this discussion with a joke taken from a Masonic Website which I hope other Masons will enjoy

Murderer to the Hangman
I hate Masons
Why?
Well I am sure the Policeman who arrested me was a Mason
The Judge who tried me I am positive was a Mason
The Jury were definitely Masons
My Jailer I bet he is a Mason
Have you finished?
Yes
Then step off with your left foot !!
Al

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: number 6
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 11:33 AM

"As has been said before, its a sectarain social club for businessmen,
with the agenda of promoting market "values" among the citizens of Mugsborough"

And the city of Mugsborough has done quite well I hear!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:29 AM

From a review of this book by Dutch theologian Tjeu van den Berk,study of Mozart's opera The Magic Flute from a Jungian and alchemical point of view:

Mozart held exactly the same view of alchemy. He belonged to a branch of the Freemasons closely linked to the Rosicrucians. Both spiritual and practical alchemy flourished in Vienna towards the end of the eighteenth century. Around the year 1780 an English visitor estimated that Vienna counted some 3000 practising alchemists.

And, for more scholarly examples of his Masonic and Rosicrucian ties, see the synopsis of this book, which includes:

Appendix II is a photo reproduction and translation of the complete article "Ueber die Mysterien der Aegyptier", written by the Master of one of the most important and active Masonic lodges in Vienna in the 1780's, Ignaz von Born. It is said to have inspired some of the plot and detail in The Magic Flute.

According to other sources Mozart attended the same Masonic Lodge as Haydn.

I have had the privilege of seeing the Charter for the Masonic Lodge in Northampton, Massachusetts which contains the signatures of its founding members, including Lafayette.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:23 AM

The poet Robert Burns was also a freemason.

But the oranisation to which Burns belonged was far removed from the Freemasonry of today.
I know quite a lot about it, as two of my uncles were members.
They joined "out of curiosity", but after a while stopped attending meetings.
They found the hierarchic set up, patronising and the rituals foolish mumbo-jumbo.

As has been said before, its a sectarain social club for businessmen,
with the agenda of promoting market "values" among the citizens of Mugsborough....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:13 AM

In legend Lucifer was the name of the archangel who challenged God and fell from heaven becoming the Devil.

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 09:28 AM

The ones (UK)that I met seemed like a very nice bunch of people. Quite upfront about their membership, and socially very welcoming. They seem very focused on their projects, and very honest in their approach. I liked them a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 09:02 AM

... but the libretto was by da Ponte - thankfully, because he was a far better wordsmith than Mozart.

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 08:54 AM

that's right, it was me who persuaded him. I said Wolfgang - this Mason name, it doesn't work. You sound like a Jewish comedian. Call yourself Mozart - its more showbiz.

he owes it all to me.

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: GUEST,Another Witch
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 08:44 AM

Lucifer is the god of light and not the devil.

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 08:33 AM

Amadaeus Mozart was a Mason.

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 07:09 AM

Anybody who reads carefully--not a widespread trait, it appears--will note that nobody has claimed Mozart was a Mason--only that the libretto for the Magic Flute was possibly inspired by Masonry. As I recall, nobody has claimed Mozart wrote that libretto.

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: GUEST,Undecided
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 06:10 AM

Many thanks Mudcatters - I thought you'd all come up with a lively debate

I suppose on reflection, I wasn't directly asked - I was asked if I'd ever thought of becoming a freemason - and then it was added - I think you would fit in well

I don't really hold that the masons are as evil as some contributors imagine - they seem a very charitable lot although a touch too secret

I agree mostly with Gervase - I enjoy my music and any spare time I have should be doing that - I am very fortunate in life so I don't really need any help either financially or socially

I'll probably say no

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:52 PM

Guest, undecided.
Please ignore the ridiculous answers from so many posters above who obviously have no direct knowledge of the Order.
Also please ignore the obvious US posters as US Masonry in general is not recognised by the UK Grand Lodges.
Please take the timie to visit www.grandlodge-england.org (sorry, I can't the blue clicky thing) and you will find a greaat deal of information.
You can also book a guided tour round Grand Lodge, Great Queen Street, London, if you are so inclined.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: GUEST,The Devil
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:45 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 07:13 PM

"GUEST who signs off as s & f, you very well illustrate what is so backwards about the Masonic Order. Instead of identifying yourself to all, like Mr. Day did and getting the repect due, your's sets a tone of underhandedness. See you ain't that clever after all!"

This seems to be saying that someone who signs as "s&f" has less merit (because of the signature, not the reasoning) than someone who signs as "guest, sorefingers" and less merit than someone who signs as "Alan Day" (probably a pseudonym) .......

......does anybody have any idea what this fucking knobhead is on about?"

You are givinG my slaves (Masonic Zombies) a baD name, for penance stand on your head in the corner for a week!

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 12:06 PM

Yikes, 6! I am a natural born idjit!!!

Sorry.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 12:02 PM

"Not equating them with Hamas"

oh no Janie ... why did you have to go and post that!!!

Now this will open up the flood gates for some real wacko posting.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 11:45 AM

Nothing is so firmly believed, as what we least know
-- Michel de Montaigne

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 11:38 AM

Although through the time of my grandparents, both sides of my family were Masons (in the USA), I don't know anything about them. I guess I assume that today they are like a social club--the Moose Lodge or the Elks, something like that. I do know it was important to both of my grandfathers and grandmothers and their Eastern Star amd Masonic rings were mentioned in their wills.

      At the turn of century, in places like rural West Virginia and Kentucky in the USA, the Masons were major providers of needed social services, at least to other Masons. My grandmother was pretty much raised in a Masonic Orphanage. My dirt-poor great grandfather spent his last years in a masonic nursing home.

    Not equating them with Hamas, but I guess doing 'good works' does not preclude also doing 'bad works.'

    Regardless of what others may think, Undecided, what would be the pros and cons personally for you to join?

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: GUEST,A witch
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 08:34 AM

If all good comes from God and all evil from lucifer

GUEST, Christian - you are making the assumption that everyone accepts this as a fact. The idea of God vs Lucifer means nothing to someone who does not accept their existence as separate entities. Many people don't, as pointed out by GUEST, 2.11pm and Manitas. It is only one way of viewing the world.

Another way of viewing the world, and one which I subscribe to, is that God/The Goddess/Great Spirit - whatever you choose to call the life force, is in balance, with many positive and negative elements interacting, and all affecting each other. This is reflected in everything that exists, including each person, so we are each a microcosm of the whole universe. If you like, you could say that "God" is in you.

Because we are interconnected, it means that whatever one does has an effect on other beings and one's surroundings, and it is with this idea in mind that a pagan lives his/her life - to enjoy this lovely planet we call home, while respecting it and causing as little harm as possible, and to respect and love the other beings that are on the journey with us, and where possible, to add something positive while one is here this time around.

"Do as you will, but harm none."

As I said, I know nothing about the masons, but I felt a need to correct misinformation where I see it. Unfortunately, I fear that what I say won't make much difference to GUEST,Al Old Pal. He/she comes across to me as an ignorant nutter.

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: frogprince
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 08:28 PM

Sorefingers, I owe you an apology; while I don't agree with you as to our impressions of masons, I had your post confused with the virulent trash posted by "Al Old Pal".

Subject: RE: BS: joining the masons
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 07:13 PM

"GUEST who signs off as s & f, you very well illustrate what is so backwards about the Masonic Order. Instead of identifying yourself to all, like Mr. Day did and getting the repect due, your's sets a tone of underhandedness. See you ain't that clever after all!"

This seems to be saying that someone who signs as "s&f" has less merit (because of the signature, not the reasoning) than someone who signs as "guest, sorefingers" and less merit than someone who signs as "Alan Day" (probably a pseudonym) .......

......does anybody have any idea what this fucking knobhead is on about?