Mummers and Racism

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:27 PM

Some might say a 'home' would be a good place for me... actually Dave I didnt consider you one of the tired illiterates

robert

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 04:27 AM

I certainly hope my little comment doesn't restart this thread, I would hate for any of the folks above to have to start answering to and 'learning' the 'GUEST' and the other tired illiterates again.

Well, sorry Robert, but simply posting to the thread does refresh it. As to the rest of the post...

I guess I must be one of those tired illiterates because it makes precious little sense to me. In the words of the great and dumbed down Homer J Simpson. "If you don't start making more sense we'll have to put you in a home!"

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: GUEST,rs
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 10:06 PM

black Americans may or may not know about the "historical differences" being cited here between mumming blackface and minstrel blackface. The point I'm making is so many of them find such "historical" justifications of the continued

I find it wonderful that this thread died.. I would like to say however that the unidentified guest(s) who continued to use the spike lee references is wonderfully indicative of the dumbing down of EVERYTHING.. oh yes, because someone doesn't understand something, let's all be sympathetic, give our understading away and play stupid or, at least, pretend to be less literate and 'in tune' than we are.. that way Alice Walker or this 'guest', or whomever, whether they be of Caucasoid or non-caucasoid persuasion can feel wanted and trusting and non-alienated. Speaking only for myself, as I always like to do, I want all asundery to remain alienated from me; keep your kernel of stupidity that 'masks' that horrid pretend sophisticated intelligence (the kind with lots of books never read) far far away.
I certainly hope my little comment doesn't restart this thread, I would hate for any of the folks above to have to start answering to and 'learning' the 'GUEST' and the other tired illiterates again.

robert

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: s&r
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 04:44 AM

Just to reinforce the point about different cultures - pillow cases over the head with eyes cut out might look much more sinister in the US than the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: GUEST,rat
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 04:49 AM

Just on the news now, a 50,000 strong mob is on a witch hunt for the theatre's chief director.

"THEY SIKH HIM HERE, THEY SIKH HIM THERE"


All in favour of freedom must first destroy religion

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 04:35 AM

Yes, I saw that as well, Shambles. Very sad. Very sad indeed. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: GUEST,rat
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 04:23 AM

I'm the only Mummer in the village

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 03:44 AM

The point is that it is drama - art imitating life. This thread is about a play in Birmingham that was prevented by mob rule.

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=76702&messages=21

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 02:03 AM

I should point out that Dave's description of a mummer's play is only one of many that might be made. Other plays have different characters. In some the Turkish knight or Bold Slasher etc kills St George, in others he kills the Valiant Soldier, in some he is killed by St George and revived, in others merely defeated. The presentation also varies from group to group with some blacking all the character's faces, some only according to the part and others using masks.

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: GUEST,Karla
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 05:04 PM

We always went mummering from door to door as kids to get treats. ADults, did it as well, their treats being more liguid. We always disquised ourselves by wearing old underwear or clothes that was too big, etc and put "stuffing" inside to make us look big and funny shapes. We wore pillow cases over our head with holes cut for eyes and mouth.   This tradition has died out over the years, however, a few people still go to friends and family.

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Dec 04 - 05:49 PM

Not sure that misunderstood. I carefully read all of these posts on this thread and others.

We appear to be products of the same time span and have supported many of the same causes during this period. I am not black nor am I female or gay. Because of this - the motives of everything I and others like me, may say can be questioned by those who are, or those who assume to speak for folk who are. I suggest however, that the main questioning of people like me and our motives - is done by ourselves.

After many years of such external and internal questioning, much development and adjustment - I can now say with as much certainty as I can - that I am not racist, sexist or homophobic - either overtly or otherwise. I do not have a problem coming to terms with the race, gender or sexual preferences of others - no matter how determined some folk are to convince me otherwise.

However and sadly, I am coming to think that many black people, females and gays (or more often those that assume to speak for them) possible do have a problem in coming to terms with these issues. That they sometimes seem determined to ensure that everyone else will also be racist, sexist, homophobic etc and approach almost every issue from their particular standpoint first and expect everyone else to also do this. And assume that everyone is already approaching every issue from a similar entrenched position - when many are actually making every possible effort not to.

Whilst always appreciating that minorities still do suffer badly at the hands of a majority (even when this is not intentional) and there may be positive actions that can be taken by all sides to minimise this - it is not possible to change one's race, gender etc - even if it were thought a good idea to do so.   

If it is thought a good thing to be proud of one's race, gender etc then it must be good for all of us to be allowed to do this. Where the active promotion of this pride looks to conflict with another's - there is little point in one side thinking that their demands may have more justification - just because it may be the minority view or indeed if it is the majority one.

Demanding acceptance, without obtaining knowledge and making any real attempt at understanding another's views - is unlikely to result in this.

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: Scoville
Date: 19 Dec 04 - 01:02 PM

To be fair--I do not know for certain that it was not part of his tradition, but if it was, it was not an important enough part of the costume for him to include it when he had his portrait taken. He's wearing everything else--robes, outrageous headdress, etc.--but no face paint. So, he might have painted his face at some point but if it had been essential, I would think he would have done so in the tintype.

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 04 - 12:55 PM

"It lasts all day, a masquerade with banjos, feathers and sneakers spray-painted gold. Sometimes raunchy, other times glamorous."

Sounds rather like Notting Hill Carnival to me.

All these traditions do feed into one another, and have all kinds of links. But things that look similar can have a very different meaning in different cultures.

....................

Wysiswyg said something interesting earlier "...racism in the UK and USA seem to have different elements and underlying histories. I often get the feeling, when racism is discussed here, that the USers and the Brits are talking about apples and oranges. Both fruit, but not the same fruit."

That's true - one difference, I think, may be that in Britain racism has tended to be more a kind of xenophobia, much of the time, together with various imperial overtones, whereas in America the experience of slavery and post-slavery repression is the key historical context.

So the significant thing about the Turkish Knight isn't that he's black (which he often isn't anyway, after all very few Turks are black), but that he is foreign.

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 04 - 11:35 AM

Shambles, I think you misunderstood Azizi's post. And missed her saying she didn't expect to post in this thread again.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Dec 04 - 10:46 AM

Also, since I mentioned my dislike of banjo music, as a means of showing respect to my ancestors, may I also take this opportunity to post that the banjo is an instrument that comes from Africa.

I really think this is an example of where it is probably a case of reasonably expecting one side to be less sensitive - rather than one of expecting the other to be more sensitive to their feelings.

As a banjo player - I could take your comments to be disrespectful to banjo players (if they actually had any respect given to them) - but this is getting really silly. Disliking a musical instrument out of respect for one's ancestors - especially when it is originally an instrument of your ancestors - is not really many any effort to be positive and taking all this too far.

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Dec 04 - 10:40 AM

Um, I meant that the children's group wore black ROBES, not "ropes".

My proof reading often leaves something to be desired....

Okay, this is really my last post here!

Thanks again!

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Dec 04 - 10:32 AM

Thanks for that information, Dave.

I still think taht if Mummer plays were to be a part of the multicultural mix of the USA, they would have to change. But, that being said, I leave this thread with more understanding about your traditions.

I would also like to offer this observation:

Yesterday I attended a Christmas program at an area African American Baptist church. Two different mime groups performed in that program. One children/youth mime group wore black ropes and white gloves, and had their faces painted white. Another women's mime group were portraying angels and wore long white ropes, wings, and half faced silver masks. The women also had their white paint around their mouths and on their lips.

I believe that the mime tradition is for the performer to paint his{her} face white to better emphasize his {her} facial expressions. Perhaps, as you said in your last post, this custom may also be so that the performer can create a distinction between himself and the audience.

However, I personally didn't like the painted white faces {or mouths}of the groups, though I could better accept the use of masks for the angels. Since both performance groups emphazised dancing or moving to recordings of African American gospel music, there wasn't any need {in my opinion} for white face paint to give emphasis to facial movements. Actually, I thought the face paint took away from the performances and gave a {what I would consider to be negative} misntrel "flavor" to the performances.

I know that I am a product of my cultural environment. I grew up in the 1950s and experienced the USA Civil Rights and Black Nationalist movements, and my perceptions have been shaped by these events.
Certainly other people, including people of African descent and other people of color who grew up before, during, and since that time may have different perspectives on mime and Mummers than I have articulated.

I would like to thank you and {at least most of} the other posters for your {their} courtesy and patience with me as I sought information and stated my views.

Best wishes to you {all} too!

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 04 - 09:45 AM

Hi Azizi. Everyone is blacked up, including St George! There are no ramifications of white vs black at all. It is something which not only potentialy stems from the mumming masks you mention but also seperates the players from the audience when you are, literaly, rubbing shoulders with the crowd! (Such as it may be...)

The play, apart from the ubiquitous asides and ad libs is pretty much played to the same formula as described above. In our version although it may seem that St George is the 'hero' he comes across very much more as a 'bragart'. The biggest 'sympathy votes' often go to Slasher or Hector and the biggest cheers usualy go to the doctor when he resurrects Slasher. I must say the black prince of Paradine (wherever that is!) usualy gets booed but he does play it for that effect and is an even bigger braggart that George.

There are no musical instruments at all but we do sing 2 songs - One at the begining when we enter and one at the end when we collect money. Bear in mind that our version is the Easter rather than the Christmas version but the plays are basicaly the same.

If you want the songs I will gladly post you the words but you may be better trying to get them, including music, on the web. The opener starts -

"Us actors are the best of men that e'er trod English ground
We never are faint hearted, our voices are full sound."

The closing one goes -

"We're two or three jolly boys all in one mind
We have come a-pace egging and we hope you prove kind."

Good luck and all the best.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Dec 04 - 08:40 AM

Thanks for that explanation Dave the gnome. I see even more clearly now that the Philadelphia Mummers and the UK Mummers are differnt cultural performances.

After reading your description of your Mummers play, I have some   questions that I want to ask with no offense meant: I'm assuming that St. George is not blackened up right? Also I'm assuming that the Black Prince and [maybe] the King of Egypt do wear black face. Given those assumptions, besides for the great importance of tradition,
why is it that the Black Prince is the one who is always killed?
And you said that the King of Egypt calls on Hector. St George fights and wounds Hector. Does the king of Egypt get killed off or does a Black character ever win or be considered a good guy?

It seems to me that this could have psycho-social implications particularly here in the US with so many media, educational and other institutions biased against people of African descent and other people of color. For instance, I was an adult before I learned that there were {and are} African kings.

Maybe your systems aren't as biased against people of color as those in the United States...I don't know. The fact that only a few people see these plays instead of millions via the wonders of TV doesn't mitigate my belief that there may be unintended ramifications for those viewing the plays... As an example, is it possible that these plays unwittingly reinforce the belief that "White is always right"?

---
Also, please excuse my inadvertant inclusion of the sentence fragments in my last post that assert my belief that the Mummers parade in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania was held on Thanksgiving Day.
It turns out that I was mixing up memories of two differnt parades. Philadelphia hosts a televised parade on Thanksgiving Day and there is also a Mummers Parade that is also televised on New Years Day.
By googling I learned that the Thanksgiving Day parade in Philadelphia, PA is the USA's oldest Thanksgiving day parade. It was started by Gimbel's {department stores}in 1920...

Also, since I mentioned my dislike of banjo music, as a means of showing respect to my ancestors, may I also take this opportunity to post that the banjo is an instrument that comes from Africa.
If interested, you can visit a UK website http://home.freeuk.com/gazkhan/banjo.htm for a sound clip and information on this. One excerpt from that is:

"The best mention of its importation into America is that by Thomas Jefferson, in his 'Notes on America' 1781. "The instrument.....is the banjar, which they brought hither from Africa." In its early period it was know by many names including the aforementioned banjar as well as bangie, bangoe, banjil, banshaw, and banza."
end of quote

If I understand you correctly, there are no banjos in UK Mummer plays... Interesting how customs changed when they crossed the ocean, met up with, and intermingled with other traditions...

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 04 - 03:34 AM

Ahhh - the dawn breaks! I understand a bit more now. Yes. UK mumming is indeed very different. Our play (At Easter this time but the Christmas one is similar) Comprises of a group of people playing...

The 'Fool' (In our case Old Bold Ben); St George; Slasher; The Doctor; The Black Prince of Paradine; The King of Egypt; Hector; Beelzebub; Little Devil Doubt.

They can be more or less or different depending on tbe tradition. Our play is...

Called on by Old Bold Ben. St George Brags. Fights with and kills slasher. Doctor resurects Slasher. St George fights and kills the Black Price. King of Egypt calls on Hector. St George fights and wounds Hector. Beelzebub frightens the audience. Little Devil Doubt asks for money. The cast collect money.

Other traditions have variations but basicaly it is the same plot and characters. It is performed typicaly in pubs. It is watched or ignored by whoever is there. We have played to anything between 4 people and, on an odd deviation from the norm, a crowded theatre! It is often watched by very few people and performed by even less! Where there are crowds it is because they know what it is about and have gone out of their way to catch it.

Hope this explains the UKers version and why there seems to be some difference of opinion as to whether the black face it is important or not. I can well understand why it upsets some if, as in Philidelphia, it is a major event seen by hundreds of people whether they want to watch it or not and with dozens of people participating. That is simply not the case here.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Dec 04 - 11:43 PM

Dave the gnome, you asked what banjo music has to do with mummers... Well, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania {USA}it has a lot to do with it. I gather from your post that your mummer traditions are different from the Philly ones. So I guess this is another example of USA'ers being different from UK'ers even if we basically speak the same language...

See this excerpt from a website about "STRUT", an award winning movie about the Philadelphia mummers that is now apparently sold as a DVD:

"It lasts all day, a masquerade with banjos, feathers and sneakers spray-painted gold. Sometimes raunchy, other times glamorous. Think burlesque on the street, marchers strutting with a parasol in one hand, a beer in the other.

The day belongs to electricians, longshoremen, plumbers and cops. And the streets rumble under the heels and toes of grandfathers and grandsons busting loose together.
Everyone has worked so hard and waited all year for this. One day that is theirs. This is Philadelphia. Tradition. Competition. Celebration. Welcome to the Mummers Parade!
http://www.strutthemovie.com/#
end of quote

Then there is this passage from the Mummers Museum in Philly:

"Mummer" comes from the Old French momer, to wear a mask; pantomime. It means a masked or costumed merrymaker, especially at a festival (American Heritage Dictionary, 3rd Edition).
Mummery is an old tradition in Philadelphia, and the famous Mummers Parade dates back to pre-Colonial times, resulting from a blend of Swedish, Finnish, Irish, English, German, African-American, and other European heritages. With the Mummers in full swing, New Years is celebrated in Philadelphia as it is nowhere else in the world.
Those who participate in the festivities are sometimes referred to as Shooters and Mummers. A bit of history: In the late 1700's, when the Swedes came to Philadelphia, they brought their custom of visiting friends on the Second Day of Christmas, December 26. Later the period of celebration was extended to include New Years Day. The grandest of celebrations became grander and grander with each new year. Celebrating the New Year was a noisy affair. With most people in those days carrying firearms for protection, many shot in the New Year. Hence the term Shooters.

Today's parades include juried competitions. While firearms are no longer discharged, the revelry is as intense as the rivalry between the various mummer groups, assuring spectators and participants alike a wonderful time.

The Mummers Museum celebrates all that is mummery and New Years Day. Visitors will enjoy unique exhibits featuring the intricate handwork that goes into the elaborate costumes. Everyone can learn to do the renowned "Mummers Strut" to the tune of "O' Dem Golden Slippers," the unofficial Mummers theme song composed by Philadelphian James Bland in 1879.

http://www.fieldtrip.com/pa/53363050.htm

end of quote. Although the passage says that the Mummers are traditionally associated with New Years Day in Philadelphia, I believe the parade is on Thanksgiving dayvsomehow I I am 99% sure that at some point {maybe because of commercial considerations} the Mummers Parade is on Thanksgiving Day.

As a matter of information, James Bland, the composer of "O, dem Golden Slippers was African American, an irony since African Americans were really not at all welcome as Mummers until some date
I'm unsure of, but I don't think it's been 30 years yet.

Here is another excerpt:

"Welcome to the home of the Philadelphia Mummers. If this is your first exposure to mummery, you may be wondering who and what we are. We are entertainers that have strutted every New Year's Day in Philadelphia for over 102 years. We are famous for our elaborate, sequined and feathered costumes. As well as our upbeat music, choreographed dance routines, and of course the mummers strut."
http://www.phillymummers.com/
end of quote.

As to competition: there is a comic division, a string division {mostly banjos}, a fancy division. For a description of the string division, see this quote:

"A central theme dominates music, costumes and presentations of the groups of 48 or more musicians. Plumed and bespangled, they mark time to music, highlighted by the banjo and glockenspiel. Ornately garbed captains join the band in precision drills."
http://www.phillymummers.com/
end of quote

One correction, apparently the Philadelphia Mummers parade is on New Years Day instead on Thanksgiving Day as I had written. I apologize for the mis-statement.

My comparison with this tradition and the New Orleans Mardi Gras Wild Indians was because in both traditions members of competitive groups wear intricate, colorful feather outfits..though these outfits are distinguishable between the two traditions.

Oh, and there does not seem to any mention in these websites of the Philadelphia Mummers "blackening up" . And GUEST,Scoville says that this was not a part of the tradition for his great-great-grandfather..So again we may be talking apples and oranges or at least oranges and tangerines when we are discussing the Philadelphia Mummers and the UK/Europe Mummers.

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 04 - 05:58 PM

I can't say that I liked the Mummers banjo music.

I think we are SERIOUS cross purposes here! What has banjo music got to do with mummers? Apart from the calling on and off songs that some traditions perform what had mumming to do with any music? Looks like we may be talking about very different things here Azizi!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 18 Dec 04 - 05:50 PM

{Side note} Black performers in traveling shows in the late 19th/early 20th century did powder themselves white to mock white people.

I have tintypes of my great-great-grandfather (a Philadelphian) in his mummer's costume and he doesn't appear to have any face-paint on (he's definitely not painted black). The costume itself is very elaborate and I can't imagine that face-paint would have added that much to the overall effect. It certainly doesn't seem worth it to risk ruffling a lot of feathers. If you want disguise, give them some false moustaches and get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Dec 04 - 01:09 PM

Grab, while I believe I am sane, I'm no more a voice of sanity on Mudcat than any other poster, and some would say I am less...

I took a break from this thread, but have read the comments with interest.

And I looked at the photos that you suggested and I still have an aversion to the whole blackening up custom.

To add mud to this water, the coconut site reminded me of the Zulu Social Aid & Pleasure Club, a krewe {organization} of African Americans who as early as 1901 unofficially and later officially marched in the New Orleans Mardi Gras parade. The Zulu krewe throws out {or maybe threw out}painted coconuts instead of beads as the White krewes did. Pertinent to this conversation, the Zulus had the custom of blackening their faces. See this quote:

"It's been written that the early Zulus were a parody on the staid white celebration of Mardi Gras. Whether true or not, the Zulus did march to their own drum beat. They originally had members dress as females to serve as queen, and later, female impersonators "reigned" as queens, to finally having women as queens. Their queens were, and still are, toasted in front of Geddes, Moss and Willis Funeral Home. There was no macabre intent meant by this tradition. The Geddes and Moss Funeral Home played an integral part in Zulu's beginning and continued to do so throughout the years.

Zulus were not without their controversies either. In the 1960s during the height of black awareness, it was unpopular to be a Zulu. Dressing in a grass skirt and putting on a black face were seen as demeaning. Large numbers of black organizations protested against Zulu and membership dwindled to approximately 16 men. James Russel, a longtime member, served as president in this period and is credited with holding the group together and slowly bringing Zulu back to the forefront."

end of quote

Sorry, I don't know how to hyperlink:
http://www.neworleansonline.com/neworleans/mardigras/zulu.html

Almost certainly the Zulu name is lifted from the South African AmaZulu ethnic group and probably was a compliment {think Chaka Zulu whose military genius is often promoted and not his [shall we say]far less endearing traits & actions...

It appears from the photographs on the Zulu website address given above and on other website on this krewe that in addition to dropping the custom of female impersonators, the Mardi Gras Zulus have dropped their custom of blackening up.

See other websites on the Zulus. Perhaps PoppaGator or someone else from New Orleans can verify whether the Zulus still blacken up and share more information on their traditions.

For my part, I have a strong preference for the Mardi Gras Wild Indian groups {their music and their intricate feathered outfits}instead of the Zulu group, and I wonder if the rise of the African American Mardi Gras Indian groups was another factor in lessening the number of Black men who chose not to join the Zulu krewe..

As ab aside, the Wild Indians remind me somewhat of the Philadelphia Mummers. I'm from Atlantic City, New Jersey which is very near Philly and which still gets the Philadelphia TV stations. Part of my childhold traditions was watching the Mummers' parade on TV every Thanksgiving morning. I don't remember the Philadelphia Mummers blackening up. I was aware that they were White, and remember hearing that they didn't allow any Black people to be in their groups.
I suppose this has changed. I can't say that I liked the Mummers banjo music...It was their outfits that I loved. I suppose in a number of ways the Mummers have had to change with the times in order to survive, just like the Zulu krewe appears to have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: LadyJean
Date: 18 Dec 04 - 12:53 AM

I've been doing a lot of Christmas shopping in Pittsburgh's Strip
District. One of the vendors has been painting half his face black and the other half goldenrod yellow.
As these are the colors of the Pittsburgh Steelers, who are enjoying a winning season this year, nobody has said anything. But he does look strange.

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 04 - 09:30 AM

Room, room brave boys and give us room to sport. Or should that be brave persons... ;-)

Well done, Steve.

Keep up the good work!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Racism
From: GUEST,Steve (Gloucester)
Date: 17 Dec 04 - 09:09 AM

Well we performed the play to rapturous applause on Wednesday, we will perform the play for a final time on the Wednesday before Christmas.

Just realised that I may have been sexist at the same time by dressing as a woman...or I may not have been allowing there to be equal opportunities by not reserving the place for a woman.

Thanks to all for their comments.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:15 PM

I think they ALL need to be locked up.   ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Grab
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:05 PM

The Coconutters site is dead. Try this page instead.

Don't know about mummers - in that case there's someone "blacking up" to be a Turk which is dodgy. But for Molly/Morris sides, I can't see the issue. Since the facepaint is clearly just a part of a larger costume intended to make the person look bizarre (see pictures above, or this one of face-painted Molly dancers) then I can't really see the problem.

A quick request - Azizi, as a voice of sanity in here, how do these pictures look to you?

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: s&r
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:51 AM

I missed the point about the Asian Taxi drivers first-footing - is it a good or a bad thing? Seems to earn money. I always took the dark first footer to have dark hair? Am I wrong?

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST,Elfcall
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:35 AM

Sorry DtG and Wyswyg. I was expecting a mummers reply !

Each year on Boxing Day (or St Stephens Day as my other half will have it) I go to see Coventry Mummers at Stoneleigh in Warwickshire. My brother plays the doctor and cures all .... etc. When he comes to his 'curing pains within or pains without' - somebody from the audience (and it has been known to be me !) will interject with 'pains without what?' to which the rejoinder is 'without your bloody help thank you very much'. Not very funny but very nearly traditional !

Stoneleigh is a beautiful village but without a pub !! - fortunately for the mummers there is a social club   - like they need more drink by 1.00pm !!!

Elfcall

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:21 AM

Was it the goons?

There's someone without!

Without what?

Without the door

Well, they are not having ours...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:18 AM

Pains inside and outside, it means.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST,ELFCALL
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:17 AM

PAINS WITHOUT WHAT ?

Elfcall

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 09:21 AM

Suitable quote, Steve!

'...pains within and pains without. If a man has nineteen devils in him I'll cast twenty of them out'

Perhaps we should try it on the Mudcat:-) Glad to hear you are sticking with it.

Cheers

Dave the Hectoring Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 07:35 AM

Steve please forget about the 'greenface' idea and just get a black person to play the part. That will keep everybody happy - or would it?

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST,Steve (Gloucester)
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 04:34 AM

Thanks to all for their comments the debate has been helpful and informative.

We have decided to retain the blacking for this year's performance of our village's Mummers' play. We'll have the debate after this winter's performances as to how to proceed in the future.

"...cures the itch, the stitch, the palsy and the gout..."

Wassail

Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:09 AM

;^P

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:09 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:08 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST,petr.
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 07:59 PM

as I mentioned before, by their own logic, guest above should be offended by the chimney sweep in Mary Poppins.

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 07:51 PM

There are probably many examples but the difference between the way those in the US and the UK view tradition - is demonstrated with words like 'minstrel'....

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 03:12 PM

How about the British tradition (kept up until very recently) of paying a chimney-sweep to attend your wedding, because the presence of a black-faced person was deemed fortunate? What about the fact that many of my neighbours, who are mostly Asian taxi-drivers, eran heavy tips on New Year's Eve by being invited to 'First-foot' at their passengers' homes after midnight. The first-foot tradition revolves around the idea that the first person to set foot in your house after the New Year turns should be a) a stranger, and b)as dark as possible. These seem to imply that there's a longstanding connection in British folk belief between black people and good fortune. Still, if some PC prat wants to abolish it, of course he must be allowed to, in the sacred name of liberality, so often used as a mask for idiocy, bullshit or even concealed hosrility.

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 02:14 PM

White coal miners with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.
White men delivering coal with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.
White kitchen "skivvies" with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.
White steam engine firemen with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.
Elsewhere, you could also see white oilworkers with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.

How about white jockeys with blackened faces (after riding on a muddy course) ....that has everything to do with race?

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 04:38 AM

Thanks, Mike. Good argument and very well put. However if, as you say I have no idea where your blackface tradition was born or what it originally meant. Nor do I suggest that it is currently employed as a tool of racial disrespect. Why then are you suggesting it should be stopped? Or have I got that wrong?

The other thing is that the Mumming or Pace Egg or Soul Caking or any other derivation play is neither historic, epic or military. The point is that no-one really knows what it is about. There are parallels drawn with, for instance, St George and his conversion to christianity but those stories are all lost in the mists of legend anyway! It is, and always has been, a growing tradition. For instance I use a 'Lord of the Rings' plastic sword with sound effects in my battle scene. We have had reference to everything from politcal figures to the spice girls! No two plays are ever the same and I suspect that has always been the case. If we change it now surely people in the past have done the same?

The analogy with both Omerammergau and 'The Passion' while having certain validity are not realy applicable in terms of scale. The Mumming play is a tiny localised and, generaly, unwatched bit of nonsense that may or may not go back a few hundred years. The Passion Plays and Mel Gibsons film are based on a religion that is followed by 2 billion people and goes back 2 millenia!

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 03:55 AM

Passion plays have been a staple in Europe for centuries. In fact, one town (I can't spell or pronounce its name)makes a decent percentage of their tourist income from their regular presentations.
I have no idea whether or not those townsfolk are anti-semitic. I do know that, in many countries, passion plays have been followed by pogroms perpetrated by inflamed, inspired peasants. Jews, who have been the victims of these atrocities, are more than a little aprehensive about their presentation. Let's face it, European Jews have an understandable edginess about some Christian traditions.

An edginess that is certainly well founded in history, agreed. So the question is what is to be done? Should Oberammergau abandon its tradition (together with a major part of its income, as you point out)? Perhaps it should change the story? Either seems more likely to inflame the more extremist Christians than continuing. Or should we do what Malcolm suggested way back when: It is an issue that needs to be addressed carefully in order to avoid misunderstanding and injured feelings ... Understanding must always be the first step in matters of this kind.

It,s worth reflecting on the photo Malcolm linked to and Azizi found disturbing. The first thing to say is that there are two different traditions at work here. In one, all characters in the play are disguised, and that seems to be the case in the post that started that thread. As I said before, as far as I am concerned greening/blueing the face or wearing masks would be an easy way of resolving this issue in keeping with both the sensibilities of observers and with the tradition.

This photo represents the other situation where only certain characters as blacked. In particular the two characters concerned are the Turkish Knight and a sweep.

For my money, both are insensitively made-up for modern tastes in this specific photo, but I see no reason why the sweep in particular should not continue to black-up.

WhenI was a child, you could see these figures at least weekly near where I lived. I have no doubt that in certain places, in both the UK and the US, you can still see them today:

White coal miners with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.
White men delivering coal with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.
White kitchen "skivvies" with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.
White steam engine firemen with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.
Elsewhere, you could also see white oilworkers with blackened faces ... and its nothing to do with race.

So, you see see while I am perfectly happy to agree that a white person blacking up can be (and frequently has been) a racist act, I don't agree that it necessarily is. I wonder, in particular which of our guests have been offended by the racism implied by the sweep characters in the 'Mary Poppins' film?

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 03:54 AM

A Bumbling Englishman

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 03:40 AM

Many traditions have been simply trampled (along with their people) throughout history. This is not pleasant - but it is a fact.

There seems little point in continuing this tradition.

It is time to try to understand and to celebrate our diffences. Music does this - perhaps it is time to concentrate a bit more on the uniting aspects of music making ans a little less on the more problematic aspects of tradition?

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: musicmick
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 02:08 AM

It seems evident that no amount of argument will blunt your disregard for the feelings of outsiders who could not be expected to understand or appreciate the subtlties of your folk rituals. You can always find a perfectly valid reason to negate any objections. Here are a few more generalized examples that will, I hope, be less accusatory in nature and, thus, more condusive to discussion.
Rituals and rememberances are, often, retellings of epic or historical events and these events are, typically, military and heroic. Our histories are marked by conflicts, wars, conquests and defenses. Our enemies in these contests are demonized and their destruction is celebrated. These celebrations remain long after the specific events are forgotten, long after the animosities that that they commemorate are forgotten. So, "Rockaby Baby" has lost its political relevance even to those who are aware that it ever had any.
I have no idea where your blackface tradition was born or what it originally meant. Nor do I suggest that it is currently employed as a tool of racial disrespect. I can, however, offer a paralel that involves neither British custom nor Black/White relations.
This year, Mel Gibson released a filmed passion play depicting the death of Jesus. There was a hue and cry from the Jewish community protesting its release. Mr. Gibson and a sizable segment of the Christian world countered these protests with arguments not unlike yours. In a cacophony of accusation and reaction, including the possably irrelevant preachings of Mr. Gibson's father, the real reason for the protests were lost in the shouting. Here's the skinny.
Passion plays have been a staple in Europe for centuries. In fact, one town (I can't spell or pronounce its name)makes a decent percentage of their tourist income from their regular presentations.
I have no idea whether or not those townsfolk are anti-semitic. I do know that, in many countries, passion plays have been followed by pogroms perpetrated by inflamed, inspired peasants. Jews, who have been the victims of these atrocities, are more than a little aprehensive about their presentation. Let's face it, European Jews have an understandable edginess about some Christian traditions.
Can you doubt that Africans have similar wariness about White traditions?

          Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Mummers and Rascism
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:58 PM

A parrable:
A dear friend of mine once proved to me that my wearing of a blue dressing gown could drive him to killing himself.
(He was feeling defensive about a habit of his, but that's beside the point).
The agument ended with him saying miserably, "And it just might be that my mother was wearing a blue dressing gown the last time I saw her and now she's dead!"
Me, "Was she wearing a blue dressing gown last time you saw her?" DF, "No, but she MIGHT have been!"

His mother had recently died, and he hadn't got to say goodbye. She'd died in his home country a long way away.
My friend's pain, anger and grief were real and understandable but the logic button was stuck in the off position. False connections and stuck logic buttons can be a terrible combination, I reckon. Cheers, Joy