African American Secular Folk Songs

Subject: Lyr Add: I'LL GET YOU RABBIT
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 11:43 AM

I have tried but can't locate an article that I had which was written by a Black author in the 1960s. The author wrote lamenting the fact that Black children in her community only knew a few Rabbit songs and their accompanying games {usually the rhymes were said as a prelude to a chasing game}.

I think that few children of any race know these songs now, or if they do, they know them only as poems in books of American folk song books. And seldom do these books provide any acknowledgment of these songs African American roots.

So, without further comment, here is one example of a Rabbit rhyme:


ADD Lyrics: I'LL GET YOU RABBIT
Thomas W. Talley, "Negro Folk Rhymes", p. 116

"Rabbit! Rabbit! You'se a mighty habit,
A-runnin' through de grass,
Eatin' up my cabbages;
But I'll git you shore at las'

Rabbit! Rabbit! Ole rabbit in de bottons,
A-playin' in de san',
By tomorrow mornin'
You'll be in my fryin' pan."

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: Abby Sale
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 11:42 AM

Another type, non-challenge but reciting one would generally call for another, was bawdy travesties of nursery rhymes. I enjoy collecting bawdy children's material simply because so many people irrationally reject the notion that children have any. In fact, of course, they have a many.

There is a Mudcat thread, "Fractured Nursery Rhymes" with a large number but provenance is rarely given. I suspect that many are adult.

I'll post all those I personally remembered from grade school.

Twinkle Twinkle little star
How I wonder what you are
Way up in the sky so high
Just like a fucking lightbulb

Little Miss Muffet sat on a tuffet
Eating her brother

Mary had a little sheep
And with that sheep she went to sleep
The sheep turned out to be a ram
So Mary had a little lamb

Jack and Jill went up the hill
Each with a buck and a quarter
Jill came down with two-and-a-half
Did you think they went up for water?

Jack be nimble, Jack be quick
Jack jumped over the candlestick
And burned his ass.

Old King Cole was a merry old soul
And a merry old soul was he
He called for his pipe
And he called for his bowl
And he called for his..........? (sorry)

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
All the Kings horses
and all the Kings men
???Couldn't do shit about it

Hickory dickory doc
Three mice ran up the clock
The clock struck one
???Right in the balls

Little Jack Horner sat in a corner
Eating himself.

Mary, Mary, quite contrary
How does your garden grow?
With silver bells and cockle shells
And one fucking petunia

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 11:20 AM

Thank you for your comments, Abby.

I've never heard of the Little Willie rhymes. I'll check out the DigitalTrad.

And let me take this opportunity to thank you for your "Happy" posts!


Azizi

Subject: Lyr Add: GO TO SLEEP LITTLE BABY
From: harpgirl
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 11:20 AM

Here's a lullaby from "Step It Down" Games, Plays, Songs& Stories from the Afro-American Heritage, by Bessie Jones and Bess Lomax Hawes

GO TO SLEEP LITTLE BABY

Go to sleep little baby, little baby,
Before the booger man catch you.

All them horses in that lot,
Go to sleepy, little baby

Go to sleep, go to sleep
Go to sleepy, little baby.

Mama went away and she told me to stay
and take good care of this baby.

Go to sleep, go to sleep,
Go to sleepy, little baby.

All them horses in that lot
Go to sleepy, little baby
Can't you hear them horses trot?
Go to sleepy, little baby

Go to sleep, go to sleep
Go to sleepy, little baby

If I rock this baby to sleep
Go to sleepy, little baby
Someday he will remember me
Go to sleepy little baby.

Go to sleep, go to sleepy
Go to sleepy little baby.

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: Abby Sale
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 11:10 AM

In doing in advance, for a change, the "happy?" for June 12, I reminded myself of "Little Willie."
See Digital Tradition, filename[ LTTLWILL: Most "Little Willie" rhymes come from the 1899 book, Ruthless Rhymes for Heartless Homes author given as "Col. D. Streamer" (actually Harry Graham, 1874-1936) and then More Ruthless Rhymes for Heartless Homes, 1930. Many of them, especially the "Willie" rhymes went into popular tradition and soon many new "Ruthless Rhymes" arose spontaneously. It was (is?) a fairly common children's challenge to each recite one Willie. The one who recites most rhymes wins.

It was also common (again, among white, middle class boys & girls on Long Island, c.1950-1965 - ie, grade school through college) to announce to the crowd that on had a new "Willie." All would typically pay careful attention. These were always "Little Willie" rhymes, never the other Graham material which was really very similar.

They have resurfaced on the WWW now but, of course, I have no notion if kids use them.

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: Abby Sale
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 11:01 AM

Just to stay in the BS area briefly - this is an issue I've considered, if not become expert in.

It seems to me that the one of the most significant differences between systems of bonded servitude and slavery, especially chattel slavery, was that one was time limited, {or, at least, supposed to be time limited [servitude] and one was for perpetuity-not only for the person branded as a slave, but also for their descendants {slavery}.

True, of course, but it also points up that if the system was commonly abused without societal or legal sanctions, there was little difference. Bonded servents were often abused, denied any legal rights, forced to "pay off their debt" over a lifetime and thoroughly degraded.

Furthermore, as I understand it, bonded servants were considered to be human {though a lower 'class' of humans} and in chattel slavery {the form of slavery in the Western world including the USA, South America, and the Caribbean}, slaves were considered to be less than human with no possiblility of evolving {say througn intelligence testing, material accomplishments, or religious conversion} to the 'level' of human}.

To me, that's the key point. And a terrifying one. And one that has been very hard (for me) to get across to other people. Modern people seem to reject the social definition of "human." Jews, Gypsies, blacks, retardeds in Nazi Germany could not be slaughtered without even trumped-up "justifications" until they were legally redefined as sub-human. In ancient Greece, all humans had legal status but this was restricted to Greek adult males. The principle is very widespread but usually applies to the whole tribe/ethnos. That is, the name for almost all African & American tribes ultimately is defined as "people" or "human." Thus, generally, you cannot kill tribe members but you can kill others freely. Etc.

But it is my understanding that the US experience was nearly unique in its barbarity and disfunctionality. Slaves in most other societies (eg, Greek or Hebrew or first American) had most of the same rights as free. They could appeal to society at large on ill-treatment and society would sternly sanction the owner. Eventually they could usually become full citizens. In Jamaica, slaves could own property, even real property, had a day off and could (with difficulty) purchase their own freedom. I don't know about the rest of the Caribbean.

No?

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 06:27 AM

Shall we start a BS topic then?

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 06:10 AM

Allen-

You wrote:
"I would respectfully suggest you pick up a book on indentured servitude."

My response is:

If you have one or two titles {or more} of books that you would recommend that I {and anyone else} read on this subject, I would appeciate your posting them.

You also wrote: "There really was no significant difference between a bonded servant and a slave."

My response is:

It seems to me that the one of the most significant differences between systems of bonded servitude and slavery, especially chattel slavery, was that one was time limited, {or, at least, supposed to be time limited [servitude] and one was for perpetuity-not only for the person branded as a slave, but also for their descendants {slavery}.

Furthermore, as I understand it, bonded servants were considered to be human {though a lower 'class' of humans} and in chattel slavery {the form of slavery in the Western world including the USA, South America, and the Caribbean}, slaves were considered to be less than human with no possiblility of evolving {say througn intelligence testing, material accomplishments, or religious conversion} to the 'level' of human}.

****

Allen, while I consider this conversation interesting, I believe that it is a digression from the purpose of this thread which is to provide examples & commentary of secular slave songs that are of {or may be of} African American origin.

As I mentioned earlier in this post, I would be interested in you posting in this thread the titles of books that you recommend on this subject.

However, if you feel strongly about engaging in a conversation about the differences-if any- between the institutions of indentured servitude and slavery, may I suggest that you start a thread on the subject.

Perhaps Catters & Guests reading this thread as well as Catters & Guest who may not be interested in the subject of African American secular folk songs will have some comments to make on that subject.


Thank you.


Azizi

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 03:02 AM

I would respectfully suggest you pick up a book on indentured servitude. There really was no significant difference between a bonded servant and a slave.

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 08:57 PM

Allen:

You wrote:
".. Certainly during the 17th and 18th centuries the differeces weren't that great."

Assuming that your comment refers to the differences between the living conditions of poor White Southerns and poor Black Southerns during the 17th and 18th centuries, I would respectfully strongly disagree with you.   

****

How's this for synchronicity?

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the book "Speak Out In Thunder Tones" in reference to a story about a newly emancipated African American who chose the name "Beman" as his family name. I also indicated that I knew I had that book-somewhere-but where it was I didn't know.

Shortly after writing that post, I went to the home of my best friend who had passed on last November. Her daughter and son had requested that others help them pack up their mother's books, artwork, artifacts, and clothing.

At one point I happened to go upstairs to ask the daughter a question, and there, in the midst of one pile of books that was getting ready to be placed in a box, was the very book that I had mentioned in this thread.

That book's full title and editor is:
"Speak Out In Thunder Tone:Letter & Other Writings By Black Notherners" {Dorothy Sterling, editor; Doubleday Books; 1973}

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 08:47 PM

Lafcadio Hearn, in *letters to Krehbiel, spoke of the difficulty of obtaining the songs of the 'coloured' in Louisiana.
*E. Bisland, ed., 1906, "The Life and Letters of Lafcadio Hearn," Vol. 1, p. 232, (written 1881), Houghton Mifflin Co.
"Nearly all of the Creoles here- white- know English, French and Spanish ... in addition to the patois employed only in speaking to children or servants. When a child becomes about ten years old, it is usually forbidden to speak Creole under any other circumstances. The French coloured population are ashamed to speak their patois before whites. They will address you in French ... and sing French songs; but there must be extraordinary inducements to make them sing or talk in Creole."
Of the three collectors, only Henry Krehbiel had much musical ability, George Cable was probably best at translation, and Hearn was a superb observer and inquirer. Their interaction on a Criole Candjo perhaps is one of the more successful of their efforts. Mudcat is balky now; I will wait until it gets better to render their versions.

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 06:36 PM

I never said there weren't, I just think that it tends to be overemphasized. Certainly during the 17th and 18th centuries the differeces weren't that great, but I wasn't talking about that.

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 06:18 PM

Allen:

See this excerpt from the first website that I pulled up on African American slave culture:

"Some advantages to rural slave life

For slaves working on farms, the work was a little less tedious than tobacco cultivation, but no less demanding. The variety of food crops and livestock usually kept slaves busy throughout the year. Despite the difficult labor, there were some minor advantages to working on a plantation or farm compared to working in an urban setting or household. Generally, slaves on plantations lived in complete family units, their work dictated by the rising and setting of the sun, and they generally had Sundays off. The disadvantages, however, were stark. Plantation slaves were more likely to be sold or transferred than those in a domestic setting. They were also subject to brutal and severe punishments, because they were regarded as less valuable than household or urban slaves.

Few men on domestic sites

Urban and household slaves generally did not live in complete family units. Most domestic environments used female labor; therefore there were few men, if any, on domestic sites. Most male slaves in an urban setting were coachmen, waiting men, or gardeners. Others were tradesmen who worked in shops or were hired out. In general, urban slaves did not have the amount of privacy that field slaves had. They lived in loft areas over the kitchens, laundries, and stables. They often worked seven days a week, even though Sunday's chores were reduced. Their work days were not ruled by the sun; instead, they were set by tasks. But there were advantages to working in town.

Urban and domestic slaves usually dressed better, ate better food, and had greater opportunity to move about in relative freedom. They also were go-betweens for field slaves and the owners. They were privy to a great deal of information discussed in the "big house." They knew everything from the master's mood to the latest political events. The marketplace became the communal center, the place for "networking." At the marketplace, slaves would exchange news and discuss the well-being of friends and loved ones. They often aided runaways, and they kept a keen ear to those political events that might have had an impact on their lives. Regardless of a slave's occupation, there was considerable fear and angst caused by an environment of constant uncertainty and threats of violence and abuse."

Source: http://www.history.org/Almanack/people/african/aaintro.cfm

Click HERE for that entire article.

-snip-

IMO, though food was undoubtably on the minds of poor White people during slavery times, White people, regardless of their financial status, were FREE from all sorts of fears and degradations that free born, freed, and enslaved Black people had-including the fact that they COULD BE sold apart from their family unit, or captured and said to be a slave even if they had been born free or somehow bought their freedom.

And there were a hosts of other 'benefits' to being born White in the United States during that time, which any student of history can discover with a little time spent studying those three centuries plus of United States slavery.

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:47 PM

I don't question your interpretation of the use of 'Heman' as an African-American name. I was swelling out its history as a proper name, since using a surname as a first name once was not uncommon in the South.
Your project on names is interesting. As a student, for awhile I had a part-time job with the Texas State government checking census, poll tax (fee $5.00- I still have my receipt), and other records. I remember some of the names, one of which was Lemon Meringue, but I don't remember the racial designation. Those records, if still in existence, would be a gold mine of names, since race was indicated.

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:37 PM

Just how uncertain was daily life for most of them? Life tends to settle into patterns.
Food was on everyone's mind, black, white, whatever.

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:24 PM

Q,

I look forward to your postings of examples of non-religious African American folk songs from the slave population in Creole areas.

****

You wrote that "Heman is an alteration of the name Hemann or Hemmann, which is Germanic. The name is not uncommon. Heman as such appears on 310 immigration records (which, of course, are incomplete; there probably were more before a system was set up to handle immigrants)."

You will note that I offered that possibility for Heman Sweat's name.

However, I stand by my position that this name or names like it were given to African Americans for the reason I provided.

I have a book on African American slavery entitled "Speak Loud With Thunder Tones" [which unfortunately I can't find at this moment}.
That book includes an account of a male head of an African American family who, after the end of slavery, chose the surname "Beman" because he wanted to make sure that White folks didn't call him or his sons 'boy'.

This is part of our culture as are the 'basket' names you referred to in your post {African Americans using African or other personal names and nicknames among themselves and the names given them by the massa and missus only when they had to}.

And there is also the African American tradition of using status names as personal names like "Prince", "King", "Princetta", "Star", "Queen", "Major" etc.

HERE is a website on selected names used by African Americans that I started a couple of years ago [and have sorely neglected; For instanceI haven't added anything to the data base for quite some time...]

But it might be of interest to Mudcat readers....



Azizi Powell

Subject: Lyr Add: SHE HUGGED ME AND KISSED ME
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:02 PM

And on that same theme, here's another rhyme from Talley's
"Negro Folk Rhyme", p. 131

ADD lyrics: SHE HUGGED ME AND KISSED ME

I see'd her in de Springtime,
I see'd her in de Fall,
I see'd her in de Cotton patch,
A cameing from de Ball.

She hug me an' she kiss me,
She wrung my han' an' cried.
She said I wus de sweetes' thing
Dat ever lived or died.

She hug me an' she kiss me.
Oh Heaben! De touch o' her han'!
She said I was de puttiest thing
In de shape o' mortal man.

I told her dat I love her,
Dat my love was bed-cord strong;
Den I axed her w'en she'd have me,
An' she jes say "Go long!"

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:00 PM

Heman is an alteration of the name Hemann or Hemmann, which is Germanic. The name is not uncommon. Heman as such appears on 310 immigration records (which, of course, are incomplete; there probably were more before a system was set up to handle immigrants).

Your name applications 'uncle,' etc. apply to the large area where the white population was Protestant-dominated. A smaller area, parts of Mississippi, most of Louisiana, and southeast Texas had large Catholic populations, the white Creole population with many French, but some Spanish, entrepreneurs and land holders. Slaves would often be referred to by a Christian saint's name, e. g. Aurore and Marie, but use of Tutu and similar familiar names were used to close family of elderly servants, as they are in many areas of the world. Greater tolerance of African customs and habits, as long as the slaves paid lip service to Christianity, meant that these customs lasted longer in Creole areas than they did in more protestant areas, where survivals were not tolerated.

The development of a mixed Creole population, ranging from slave to freeman, with its subclasses, also had a strong effect on racial interaction, which is difficult to understand today.
(Don't ask me to define the meaning of Creole in Louisiana, it means different things to different subgroups. I have used it in two senses here).
A few of the songs and dances of the slave population in Creole areas were preserved by Lafcadio Hearn, Henry Krebiel and George Cable, who knew and corresponded with each other. I will post a few of these secular songs later today.

Subject: Lyr Add: VINIE
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 01:51 PM

Back on task:

There are a lot of contemporary children's rhymes that use the floating verse "I love coffee, I love tea" {or "I like coffee I like tea."} These rhymes used to be chanted for jump rope, but I've usually I see them done as handclap rhymes.

Here is an old African American folk rhyme that includes this verse
This rhyme also makes reference to 'greens', the topic of another current Mudcat thread {"Hominy Grits and Greens"}:

ADD Lyrics: VINIE
Thomas W. Talley, "Negro Folk Rhymes", 1922; p 130

I loves coffee, an' I loves tea.
I axes you, Vinie, does you love me?

My day's study's Vinie, an' my midnight dreams,
My apples, my peaches, my tunnups, an' greens.

Oh I wants dat good 'possum, an' I wants to be free;
But I don't need no sugar, if Vinie loves me.

De river is wide, an' I cain't well step it.
I loves you, dear Vinie; an' you known I cain't
help it.

Dat sugar is sweet, an' dat butter is greasy;
But I loves you, sweet Vinie, on't be oneasy.

Some loves ten, an' some loves twenty,
But I loves you, Vinie, an' dat is a plenty.

Oh silver, it shine, an' lakwise do tin.
De way I loves Vinie, it mus' be a sin.

Well, de cedar is greeen, an' so is de pine.
God bless you, Vinie! I wish you' us mine.

-snip-

I like this rhyme {which Talley describes as a dance song} because it documents that Black men and Black women dared to love each other in spite of the ravages and uncertainties of slavery which could separate loved ones from each other at a moment's notice.

The references to food in this {and many other African American secular slave songs} should be read in the context of the times-food was very much on the minds of enslaved people as the food supplies that they received were very much insufficient. Sugar and butter, for instance, were seldom made available to enslaved African Americans and therefore were very much desired. It was therefore a big deal for the man reciting these words to say he would give up sugar for love of Vinie.

I hope he was successful and blessed in his courtship and life with the woman he loved.



Azizi

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 11:20 AM

Further digression:

Thanks for sharing that story, Q.

I was interested in the fact that the African American male who attempted to integrate the university was named "Heman".

There is some folk cultural significance to that name. "Heman" might be an old family name given during or after African American slavery to 'force' others to call the sons "man".

Some African American males are stil given the personal name "Man." However much more frequently nowadays "Man" and "Honeyman" are used asnickname for African American boys. BTW, "Honeyman" has no sexual connotation.

I'm not sure if other races also have this custom.

****

My daughter is a 2nd grade teacher is a school that is 99.9 African American. One of the boys in her class this year is named "Mister". The boy's mother told her that this was an old family name that was given so White people would be forced to called the male "Mister"
I read somewhere that "Mr. T" {the actor best know for the 1983 TV series "The A Team"} was given his name for that same reason.
   
{In the bad old days in the Southern part of the United States, Black men were never given the title "Mister" as in Mr Johnson. Instead "Uncle" was used, especially for older Black men, as in those famous Black men "Uncle Tom", "Uncle Remus, and "Uncle Ben".
In the same way "Auntie" or Aunt ____" was used in place of Mrs}.

****

On the other hand "Heman" could just be a variant form of the Germanic name "Herman" which means "warrior" or Latin "Herminius" which means "High Ranking male".

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 10:56 PM

Digression
"No regular posters ...acknowledge any African-American descent.."
This brought back memories of a professor of mine in physical anthropology at the University of Texas years ago, when the first African-American was applying to the University Law School. The school was fighting this attempt to break the color barrier at the University.
The professor gave one of his lectures on comparative forensics- an African group that day- then slowly looked around the room, letting his eyes rest on each of us in turn. He turned back to the board, nodding his head and said "yes" before going on with his presentation. A little nervous laughter.

The law applicant succeeded in the Supreme Court in 1950, but his lecturers met him solo, in the oldest building on campus, and he made no visible appearance on the rest of the campus. In other words, segregation continued. The pressure was too much and he failed.
His name was Heman Sweat. I have often wondered what happened to him. Google tells me that the National Bar Assn. gives an award in his name each year, but I have found nothing about his life post his experence at the University.

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:30 AM

GUEST,Banjo Rick:

Your voice is needed here.

I have been unable to figure out why there are no other regular posters on Mudcat besides me who acknowledge any African American descent.

I visited Mudcat 10 months ago. A member of this community publicly responded to my initial post and encourgaed me to join.

I extend that same encouragement to you.

Mudcat has a rich resource of information on African American music including blues, spirituals, secular slave songs, children's rhymes and more. It also has a large body of archived information and songs on other folk cultures and music.

I love sharing information about my culture and learning about other people's culture. I have enjoyed the witty give and take exchange of posting to both the music threads and the BS threads. {I'm sure you can guess what BS means but it is often a misnomer since so many of those threads are about serious topics}.

Mudcat membership is free. All you have to do is click on the word "Membership" to the far right above the thread name and follow the easy instructions.

So Banjo Rick, I hope that you join this online community.

If not, I hope that you post regularly.

And by the way, because you are African American, I don't expect that we would agree on anything or everything.

That is not the point.

We need more diversity here. Your joining would add to that.

I'm hoping to see you around the neighborhood.

Peace,


Azizi

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 11:10 PM

Banjo Rick, did you happen to see the Woodsongs internet broadcast on banjo origins (and historic styles) recently? Audio and video, archived HERE (Show #350).

Welcome to Mudcat! Membership is free, and has many benefits.

~Susan

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Banjo Rick
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:53 PM

To Azizi Powell,
Keep up the work, As a African Amer. banjo player, I always tell other AA's that the banjos origin is right here with us. Not only with us but right here were we live.(Norfolk,Va). Lately I have been searching for thoses secular songs from back in the day. I have always felt that they were out there.
I also love the fact that other people are carfully looking at your work. What ever is discovered must be tested by your peere.
I'm still reading the thread. I'm kind of new to this tjread stuff,so hang in there with me.
Keep up the work

Subject: Lyr Add: GO TO ELLA WALL
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 05 - 08:46 AM

I'm somewhat surprised that the song fragment 'Go To Ella Wall' is not included in that list of songs included in "Mule and Men'.
In that book, Zora Neal Hurston provides an account of a jook type gathering that she attended along with Big Sweet, Ella Walls' rival. When Ella Wall enters the room, the men sing a praise song to her. According to Hurston, at that time, "Go To Ella Wall" was sung in every "jook" and "job" in South Florida. [p. 192 according to my notes; Sorry. I can't find the book that I have right now; so I can't cite the publisher. However, I assume that this fragment is included in the online version]


GO TO ELLA WALL:

"Go to Ella Wall
Oh, go to Ella Wall.
If you want good boody
Oh, go to Ella Wall.

Oh, she's long and tall.
Oh, she's long and tall.
And she rocks her rider
From uh wall to wall.

Oh go to Ella Wall
Take yo' trunk and all-

-snip-

[At that point Ella Wall interrupts the singing and says]:
"Tell'em about me! Ella Wall snapped her fingers and revolved her hips with her hands.

"Ah'm raggedy, but right. Patchy but right, stringy, but I will hang on. "

[Then Hurston writes]:
"Look at her putting on her brag, said Big Sweet. Loud-talking de place." *

-snip-

* I believe this sentence means that Ella is loud talking" {boasting about herself in a loud voice}. Of course, Big Sweet says this instigating remark in a voice loud enough for Ella Wall and others to hear.

And that's when the 'fun' REALLY begins.

Subject: Lyr Add: MULE ON DE MOUNT
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 05 - 07:27 AM

The 8 folksongs included in 'Mules and Men" and presented on the Zora Neale Hurston website include recordings from the Library of Congress, sheet music, and lyrics.

Here is one example:

"Mule On De Mount
NOTE: The most widely distributed and best known of all Negro work songs. Since folk songs grow by incremental repetition the diversified subject matter that it accumulates as it ages is one of the evidences of its distribution and usage. This has everything in folklife in it. Several stories to say nothing of just lyric matter. It is something like the Odyssey or the Iliad.

Cap'n got a mule, mule on the Mount called Jerry
Cap'n got a mule, mule on the Mount called Jerry
I can ride, Lawd, Lawd, I can ride.
(He won't come down, Lawd; Lawd, he won't come down, in another version.)

I don't want no cold cornbread and molasses,
I don't want no cold cornbread and molasses,
Gimme beans, Lawd, Lawd, gimme beans.

I don't want no coal-black woman for my regular,
I don't want no coal-black woman for my regular,
She's too low-down, Lawd, Lawd, she's too low-down.


I got a woman, she's got money 'cumulated,
I got a woman, she's got money 'cumulated,
In de bank, Lawd, Lawd, in de bank.

I got a woman she's pretty but she's too bulldozing,
I got a woman she's pretty but she's too bulldozing,
She won't live long, Lawd, Lawd, she won't live long.

Every payday, payday I gits a letter,
Every payday, payday I gits a letter,
Son come home, Lawd, Lawd, son come home.

If I can just make June, July and August,
If I can just make June, July and August,
I'm going home, Lawd, Lawd, I'm going home.


Don't you hear them, coo-coo birds keep a'hollering,
Don't you hear them, coo-coo birds keep a'hollering,
It's sign of rain, Lawd, Lawd, it's sign of rain.


I got a rainbow wrapped and tied around my shoulder,
I got a rainbow wrapped and tied around my shoulder,
It ain't goin' rain, Lawd, Lawd, it ain't goin' rain. "

-snip-

The other folk songs presented are:
Let the Deal Go Down

East Coast Blues

Going to See My Long Haired Babe

John Henry

Can't You Line It

There Stands A Blue Bird

Cold Rainy Day

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 05 - 07:16 AM

I want to share information about a website that I just found out about. An E-text of 'Mules and Men' by Zora Neale Hurston HERE !

This high quality E-text and related files was created by Laura Grand Jean for the Amerian Studies Program at The Univeristy of Virginia {2001}. Thank you! Much Props!! Big Up to Laura Grand Jean and all those who worked on this project !!!

For those unamiliar with African American folklorist, anthropologist, and writer Zora Neal Hurston and her now classic book, "Mules and Men" here's an excerpt from the introduction to that website:

"There has been no greater tragedy in the construction of the American literary canon than the twenty year banishment of Zora Neale Hurston to the "Dustbin of History." In a career that spanned three decades Hurston published four novels, two collections of folklore, an autobiography, and no fewer than forty articles and essays on topics ranging from "How it feels to be Colored Me" to "Crazy for this Democracy." ....

In her hometown of Eatonville [Florida], Hurston was brought up in a culture in which lying, i.e. folk tale telling, was an artform. Hurston celebrated this culture of lying when she published a collection of "them big ole lies" told "on the store porch" by the working class African Americans of her hometown (Mules and Men ). …Mules and Men …demonstrate how Zora Neale Hurston used "lies" in order to redeem and recover the voice of working class African Americans.

…more than provide an optimistic account of the lives of working class southern blacks, Mules and Men argues for the re-evaluation of the black folk aesthetic on its own terms. In an age of African American literature when black artists were encouraged to "put their best foot forward" in the form of acceptable, middle class characters Hurston squarely defined that best foot as belonging to the lower classes of blacks from which came the blues, jazz, folktales and folk songs. Mules and Men testifies to Hurston's belief that "folk were creating an art that didn't need the sanction of art to affirm its beauty"(Hemenway 54)."

-snip-

This site also provides texts for Folksongs In Hurston's 'Mules To Men'

A glossary of Hoodoo phrases is also included and more!!

I'm VERY impressed with that website!


Azizi

Subject: Lyr Add: OLD MAN KNOW-ALL
From: Azizi
Date: 19 May 05 - 08:54 AM

ADD: OLD MAN KNOW-ALL

Thomas W. Talley: "Negro Folk Rhymes", {Kennikat Edition, p. 211-212}

[For a change of pace, here's an example that demonstrates how way back when in slavery times rhymes were used as a form of
re-direction and social control. If someone didn't want to be told off, with his [or her] name spread in the street {or on the farm or on the plantation] he'd have to change up his contrary ways. Otherwise, in accordance with the ancient African tradition that was brought to these shores by way of folk memories, he'd likely be the subject of what we'd call now a 'rip' or a 'dis' or a 'cap' or any number of other regional American terms that mean that he would be royally and creatively publicly insulted].


OLD MAN KNOW-ALL

Ole man Know-All, he come 'round
Wid his nose in de air, turned 'way frum de ground.
His ole wooly head hain't been combed fer a week:
It says: "Keep still, while Know-All speak".

Ole am Know-All's tongue, it run;
He jes know'd ev'rything under the sun.
When you knowed one thing, he knowed mo'.
He 'us sharp 'nough to stick an' green
'nough to grow.

Ole man Know-All died las' week.
He got drowned in de middle o' de creek.
De bridge wus dar, an' dar to stay.
But he knowed too much to go dat way.

Subject: Lyr Add: LEARN TO COUNT {NAUGHT'S A NAUGHT}
From: Azizi
Date: 19 May 05 - 08:35 AM

ADD: LEARN TO COUNT {NAUGHT'S A NAUGHT}

Thomas W, Talley: "Negro Folk Rhymes", {Kennikat Press edition;p. 207}


Probably the most widely known example of the word "N----" being used in an African American secular folk rhyme is this one that also provides a perspective of African Americans view of the unfairness of life:

LEARN TO COUNT

Naught's a naught,
Five's a figger.
All fer de white man,
None for the N-----.

Ten's a ten,
But it's mighty funny;
When you cain't count good,
You hain't got no money.

Subject: Lyr Add: JACK AND DINAH WANT FREEDOM
From: Azizi
Date: 19 May 05 - 08:28 AM

JACK AND DINAH WANT FREEDOM

Thomas W. Talley, "Negro Folk Rhymes" {Port Washington, N.Y, Kennikat Press, 1968; p. 215; originally published by The macmillan Co., 1922}


I very much dislike the "N---" referent for African Americans.
I rarely write this word out and usually use substitute another referent for it.

However, there are some old folks songs/rhymes in which "N___" is used to rhyme with another word.

Here's one example that illustrate the rhyming use of that word. This example also adds to the discussion we've been having about what might happen if individuals shared their plans to flee slavery with others.

JACK AND DINAH WANT FREEDOM

Ole Aunt Dinah, she's jes lak me.
She wuk so hard dat she waht to be free.
But, you know, Aunt Dinah's gittin' sorta ole;
An' she's feared to go to Canada, caze it's so col'.

Dar wus ole Uncle Jack, he want to git free.
He find de way Norf by de moss on de tree.
He cross dat river a-floatin' in a tub.
Dem Patterollers give 'im a mighty close rub.

Dar is ole Uncle Billy, he's a mighty good N----.
He tote all de news to Mosser a little biffer.
When you tells Uncle Billy, you wants free fer a fac'
De nex' day de hide drap off'n yo back.

-snip-

Notes from the book:

"...The Negroes repeating this rhyme did not always give the names Jack, Dinah, and Billy, as we here record them, but at their pleasure put in the individual name of the Negro in their surroundings whom the stanza repeated might represent. Thus this little rhyme was the scientific dividing, on the part of the negroes themselves, of the memebers if their race into three general classes with repect to the matter of Freedom."

-snip-

Through asterisks and crosses, Talley also provides notes that the 'river' mentioned in the second verse of this rhyme was a reference for "The Ohio River" and "Patterollers" were "WHite Guards who caught and kept slaves at the masters' home".

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: Azizi
Date: 18 May 05 - 03:05 PM

"Uncle Jesse" is sometimes confused with another very old African American folk song called "Ole Jesse". In her 1925 book "On The Trail Of Negro Folk Songs" (pp 71-72} Dorothy Scarborough includes this chorus and verse from "Ole Jesse" that she says comes from Alabama:

Chorus:
Old Jesse was a gemman {gentelman}
Among de olden times.

"N--- never went to free school,
Nor any odder college.
An' all de white folks wonder whar
Dat N--- got his knowledge.
He chawed {chewed} up all de Bible.
An' den spat out de Scripter,
An' when he 'gin {begin} to arger {argue} strong,
He were a snortin' ripter!

-snip-

It's my opinion that the "never went to free school" portion of this rhyme lives on as a floating verse in several African American children's rhymes {that were still being performed in the 1970s}, though I haven't seen any of them performed in my area {Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania} recently.

Here is one relatively common rhyme that features {or featured} this verse:

Soloist: Aunt Jenny died.                .
Group:   How did she die?               
Soloist: She died like this.
Group:   She died like this.

Soloist: She died like that.
Group:   She died like that.

[Soloist and group repeat the same sequence with other relatives and
end with these words]:

Soloist: My momma livin'.
Group:    Where she livin'.
Soloist
and group: Well she lives in a place called Tennessee.
          jump up Tenna Tennessee
          jump back Tena Tennesse
          jump in Tena Tenness
          jump out Tena Tennessee
   
          Well I've never been to college
          I never been to school.
          But when it comes to boogie.
          I can boogie like a fool.
          You go in, out, side to side.
          You go in, out, side to side.

         (Repeat with new soloist}
****               

The accompanying actions for Aunt Jenny died:
First line: the soloist makes a funny pose.
Second line: the other members of the group try to exactly
imitate the soloist's pose. This continues until the 'Never went to college' verse. The 'Never went to college' verse has a faster more syncopated tempo. The group chants this verse together as they peform the indicated motions. The group dances on the word 'boogie'. The group usually chooses the same currently popular dance, but each girl performs it in her own way {each puts their own flava to the mix}.

And what a delight this is to see!


Azizi Powell

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 05 - 02:37 PM

Azizi, PLEASE follow the instructions given upthread on changing the SUBJECT LINE when you add a song. It's the boxed text space above the post-compose box-- just like changing the subject line of a PM???

Subject: Lyr Add: UNCLE JESSE
From: Azizi
Date: 18 May 05 - 02:14 PM

UNCLE JESSE
Bessie Jones & Bess Lomax Hawes: "Step It Down" {pp 112-113}.

Lead Voice/and or                  
Group Voice
Now, here comes Uncle Jesse         
Coming through the field            
With his horse and buggy               
And I know just how he feels         
{the next verse may be added         
now or substituted for the            
first verse}                        

Here comes Uncle Jessie,
He's looking very sad.
He's lost his cotton and corn
and everything he had.

Step, Uncle Jessie, step, step.      
Step, Uncle Jessie, step, step.      
Walk, Uncle Jessie, walk, walk.
Walk, Uncle Jessie, walk.               

Now if you want a sweetheart         
I'll tell you what to do               
Just take some salt and pepper
And sprinkle it in your shoe.         
                                       

Step, Uncle Jessie, step, step. etc.

Now if you want Uncle Jesse            
To do what you want him to do.         
You take some garlic and onion
and put it in his shoe.               
                                       
Step, Uncle Jessie, step, step.      
Step, Uncle Jessie, step, step.         
Walk, Uncle Jessie, walk, walk.      
Walk, Uncle Jessie, walk.               

         
-snip-

Notes from book:
"I tell you what this means, it mean a boss man coming across the field. He sometimes feeling good, and sometimes he's not..."

"Uncle Jesse" seems to be one of the oldest of the Islanders' plays [dramatic games]: one evidence of its age is the mention of love and power charms in the form of salt, garlic, and onion. The formal dancing by the central partners puts it almost in the category of dance rahter than rign play: in action, actually, it feels like a cross between the two."

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 18 May 05 - 06:09 AM

Allen,

also FWIW, I agree with your comments on 18 May 05 - 02:31 AM.

I'm not sure if there is an old African proverb that says this, but here's a new African proverb that I just thought of that was inspired by your post:

"Big mouths can cause big trouble".

And when it came to slavery, that ain't no joke.

Severe whippings, mutilation, and being 'sold down the river' to the harshest form of slavery in the deep Southern states were the penalties for being caught trying to escape slavery.

Of course, even today "big mouths can cause big trouble".

Maybe it's just as well that this is a text only discussion forum.

LOL!


Azizi Powell

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 18 May 05 - 06:01 AM

Q,

For what its worth, I agree with your statements about the Underground Railroad and the 'Follow the Drinking Gourd' song.

I respectfully provide excerpt from one of your posts in that 'Follow the Drinking Gourd' thread for which you provided a link:

"Much is written about one or two of these [Underground Railroad]conductors, but there were others that were more important.
John Parker helped slaves to cross the Ohio River and passed them on to other helpers.
William Cretty of New York helped 3000.
Robert Purvis of Philadelphia is credited with transporting 9000.
William Still, also of Philadelphia, conducted many.
Others included David Ruggles, Josiah Henson, Harriet Tubman and many others whose names are buried in records or unknown.
Purvis, Still and Ruggles were African-American free men."

-snip-

Probably because they are relatively well known, you did not mention that Josiah Henson and Harriet Tubman were African American slaves who escaped to freedom. However, for those who may not know these names, let me take this opportunity to provide the following information:

"Josiah Henson was born a slave on 15th June, 1789 in Charles County, Maryland. He was sold three times before he reached the age of eighteen. By 1830, Henson had saved up $350 to purchase his freedom. After giving his master the money he was told that the price had increased to $1,000.

Cheated of his money, Henson decided to escape with his wife and four children. After reaching Canada, Henson formed a community where he taught other ex-slaves how to be successful farmers. His autobiography, The Life of Josiah Henson (1849) was read by Harriet Beecher Stowe and inspired her best-selling novel, Uncle Tom's Cabin. "

Source fully quoted: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAShenson.htm

-snip-

"Harriet Ross was born into slavery in 1819 or 1820, in Dorchester County, Maryland. Given the names of her two parents, both held in slavery, she was of purely African ancestry. She was raised under harsh conditions, and subjected to whippings even as a small child. At the age of 12 she was seriously injured by a blow to the head, inflicted by a white overseer for refusing to assist in tying up a man who had attempted escape.

At the age of 25, she married John Tubman, a free African American. Five years later, fearing she would be sold South, she made her escape.

Her Escape to Freedom in Canada
Tubman was given a piece of paper by a white neighbor with two names, and told how to find the first house on her path to freedom. At the first house she was put into a wagon, covered with a sack, and driven to her next destination. Following the route to Pennsylvania, she initially settled in Philadelphia, where she met William Still, the Philadelphia Stationmaster on the Underground Railroad. With the assistance of Still, and other members of the Philadelphia Anti-Slavery Society, she learned about the workings of the UGRR.

In 1851 she began relocating members of her family to St. Catharines, (Ontario) Canada West. North Street in St. Catharines remained her base of operations until 1857. While there she worked at various activities to save to finance her activities as a Conductor on the UGRR, and attended the Salem Chapel BME Church on Geneva Street.

Her Role in the Underground Railroad
After freeing herself from slavery, Harriet Tubman returned to Maryland to rescue other members of her family. In all she is believed to have conducted approximately 300 persons to freedom in the North. The tales of her exploits reveal her highly spiritual nature, as well as a grim determination to protect her charges and those who aided them. She always expressed confidence that God would aid her efforts, and threatened to shoot any of her charges who thought to turn back."

-snip-

Here is more on Harriet Tubman whose nickname was 'Moses' because of her work in leading African American slaves to freedom.

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 18 May 05 - 02:31 AM

Pretty complacent, no make that stupid, slave-owner that just ignores 'hollering in the field'. Remember that there was a constant fear of slaves rising.
What I suspect they sometimes did was change a certain word or phrase.
I also don't think slaves would be too happy about someone with a big mouth singing songs that were about escape while planning just that.

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 17 May 05 - 09:20 PM

Your comments that spirituals such as "Get on Board," "Gospel Train," etc. could in some way be related to the Underground Railroad may not be sheer fancy. Many thousands were assisted to freedom by railroads functioning as part of the passage to freedom. I named a few of the 'conductors' in thread 17760, post of 13 Apr. 05. Origins
The songs would not be coded 'direction' songs, but songs that discussed obliquely escape from slavery.

The current Thread 81241, Follow the Drinkin' Gourd, contains my reservations about that song. Drinkin' Gourd

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 May 05 - 08:02 PM

Then of course there's the mentality that would cause the comment, "Oh, that's just them N__s hollering down in the field."

The coded nature of the songs, the somewhat-unintelligible-to-the-whites (at least some of the time on purpose), and the "Oh, that's just...."
attitude all helped the in-group meaning from being guessed.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 May 05 - 07:57 PM

Azizi:

You said, How this for 'a given'?- Different songs or significantly different versions of songs often have the same name.

And the complementary "given": The (essentially) same song, at different times and different places, often has a different name, thus contributing to keeping folkies on their toes to keep track.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 05 - 07:12 PM

Thanks Azizi. I didn't know that some people were suggesting that it was just spirituals that were being used for that purpose. I was thinking more about the secular slave songs. Good point about the slave owners putting two and two together though.

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:23 PM

Sorry. I will try to remember to use the preview feature.

Here's one correction in the 3rd verse of the song:
"He wouldn't do nothing but the possum-la this morning".

And another correction, in my comments about the Run, N---,Run {or Run, Black man Run' song

"In most music books that include this song ..

And I really wouldn't mind calling the song "Run, Children, Run" without using any reference to race if those teaching the song to children, youth, and adults provided some age appropriate historical information.

Subject: Lyr Add: OLD BILL THE ROLLING PIN
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:14 PM

Atually, I'm more interested in finding examples of coded messages that were used in African American secular slave songs.

I recall reading somewhere a recollection of a woman who was enslaved of how the passed along the message about a social get together after a full day of work. Some 'pass word' was used, but I can't find that passage. Yet.

However, here is an example of a coded term being used in a secular song:

OLD BILL THE ROLLING PIN

Bessie Jones, Bess Lomax Hawes,"Step It Down" {University of Georgia Press, 1972, p. 208}

Now, Old Bill the Rolling Pin this morning.
Now, Old Bill the Rolling Pin this morning.
Now, Old Bill the Rolling Pin,
He's up the road and back again.
Big eyes and double chin this morning.

I geed to the mule but the mule wouldn't gee this morning.
I geed to the mule but the mule wouldn't gee this morning.
I geed to the mule but the mule wouldn't gee.
I knocked him side the head with thes singletree this morning.

Now Old Bill, etc.

I hawed the mule but the mule wouldn't haw this morning.
I hawed the mule but the mule wouldn't haw this morning.
I hawed the mule but the mule wouldn't haw,
He wouldn't do nothing but the pssum-la this morning.

Now Old Bill, etc.

Mister Frog went swimming down the lake this morning.
Mister Frog went swimming down the lake this morning.
Mister Frog went swimming down the lake.
But he got swallowed by a big black snake this morning.

Now Old Bill, etc.

[sung to the chorus melody]
Mrs. Duck went swimming down the lake this morning.
Mrs. Duck went swimming down the lake this morning.
Mrs. Duck went swimming down the lake.
But she got struck by a big black snake.
Poor thing, her neck got breaked this morning.

Note from book:
"When the mule wouldn't do nothing but the possum-la, that means he'd back around and cut up and like that-like he was dancing...*

Mrs Jones say that Old Bill was a "patterroller" and that people made this song up to make fun of him. During slavery, when Negroes were not allowed to leave their home plantation without a pass, "patterollers" were armed guards, hired to patrol the roads at night, enforcing the pass system. This particular 'patteroller' had "big eyes and a double chin", apparently reminding the singers of Mister Frog {the same one who went a-courting and who got "struck by a big black snake"}. The mule,who dances instead of working,is not as extraneous as he may seem either."

-snip-

* According to Bessie Jones, the 'possum-la' was performed "almost like the 'Kneebone Bend'...The Possum-La dancer shuffles and 'cuts up' causually or perhaps skips around a circle until the world 'possum-la' when he gives a slight jump, or 'chug' to one side, landing with his knees deeply bent." (p. 127}

And to echo Bess Lomax Hawes' words, it seems to me that the big black snake that struck Mister Frog and Mrs Duck are also "not as extraneous as he may seem either".

****   
The patteroller may be familiar to some from the song
"Run N----Run"** .

Here's another pet peeve of mine. In most music books and that I include this song, perhaps as a means of avoiding the use of that politically incorrect referent, that song is bleached of all its context and presented as a cute little children's song. IMO, this song was NEVER cute. I believe that during slavery it was sung not only to poke fun at the patrolers, but also to reinforce the lesson for African American children that if they saw a patroller they'd better run away as fast as they could.

** Since I'm one of many African Americans who can't STAND the
'N word', regardless of who uses it, Black, White, or Green, I refer to this song as "Run, Black Man, Run". At least that way I retain the context of the song.

But that's just me. To each his {or her} own.


Azizi Powell

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 17 May 05 - 05:59 PM

Most of the time probably. Religion was not that removed from daily life, and what better way to raise your spirits.

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 05 - 05:26 PM

Carol,

Usually books and online sites talk about coded {imbedded/secret} messages in African American spirituals.

For instance, the story goes that "Steal Away {to Jesus} meant that a person or persons were going to be leaving for the North or Canada. [Canada was referred to in code as 'Beulah Land', or 'the Promised Land' or 'heaven'].

And supposedly, 'cahariot'in the spirtituals 'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" and Good News, Chariot comin", was a coded term for the 'Underground Railroad' of assisted flight from slavery and safe houses for those fleeing slavery.

And the story is that all the train spirituals such as "Get On Board" , 'This Train", "Don't Miss That Train", Train Is Comin" etc reflected more than the interest in that new mode of transportation. According to this viewpoint, the 'Gospel Train' was a coded reference for the Underground Railroad. References to "the Conductor" meant the person who was either leading a person or group of people to freedom or one who was at a safe house helping them along the way,

Then of course there is the "Follow The Drinking Gourd" song that supposedly maps out the path to freedom.

I say 'supposedly' because it seems to me that some {or much} of the material on this 'assisted fleeing from slavery' has moved into the realm of make believe storytelling.

For example, given the fact that snitches were probably just as plentiful then as they are now, I rather doubt that the entire community would be told that an individual was planning to flee from slavery. And somewhere I read that-Harriet Tubman notwithstanding-most of those escaping from the horrors of slavery did so as individuals.

Let's get real now. I'm sure that if a slave or group of slaves fled everytime one of these songs were sung, some astute White slaveowner would put 1 and 1 together and come up with 2.

In other words, I would bet that at least some of the times these spirituals were sung for purely religious reasons.


Azizi Powell

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 17 May 05 - 04:46 PM

Great thread, Azizi. I have to admit to not reading all of the technical stuff about songs that have been covered so far (I blame my Attention Deficit Disorder... my eyes start to glaze over when the discussion gets technical). I was wondering if you have been tracing songs that were used as a way of communicating information about the Underground Railroad. I am sure I have read somewhere that songs and/or rhymes were used for this purpose.

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 05 - 04:40 PM

Thanks Greg!

I appreciate your comments.

And your sentence: "Travelling hopefully has always been better than arriving." sounds real heavy.

I gotta give you a high five for that one. I'm not sure if it is true all the time, but I've found it to be true at least some of the time.

And Greg, you know what just occurred to me? Since African Americans are a mixed race people anyway, and because in the USA there is alot of interaction across racial lines, it shouldn't be surprising that our [African American] secular and religious music-including gospels, jazz, and R&B, Hip-Hop etc- are from mutiple racial sources.

What ticks me off is the sense that in the USA and Europe if race is not mentioned, most people ASSUME that White people are/were the ones who created or invented the art work or product.


Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 17 May 05 - 04:36 PM

Guest with comment on "The Dance of the Grizzly Bear" was Q.

The Bear Flag stems from the declaration of the California Republic in 1846 at Sonoma, and was a 'natural' for the state flag. It has nothing to do with the dance or song.
"Streetswing" at times tends to go off subject and introduces material that is not pertinent to the subject.

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 17 May 05 - 04:32 PM

I was talking about the 1700s, not the 1800s when things had changed considerably.

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 May 05 - 04:23 PM

A considerable number of Azizi's classic "African-American" songs have a very mixed origin, surely. We would most of us, I imagine, if asked to throw songs quickly into a "black" or "white" box, unhesitingly file the great linear ballads of death "Frankie and Johnnie", "Stack o'Lee" or "St James' Infirmary" in the black category. But a more detailed analysis of their structure, melodic and also (to a lesser extent) lyrical content, would surely suggest a big percentage(indeed maybe a majority) of "white" material.` But this doesnt stop them being black folksongs. Or white songs, either. they are clearly both, depending on the version, the performers, and the audience.
    But I am not suggesting Azizi's approach is not valid, of course it is. Folk songs, by their nature, reflect the culture they come from incredibly accurately, and you can't study them without putting them in the ethnic context of their creation and and performance. And I do wish that people nowadays were as keen as the older scholars to pass on information on this kind of background of songs. I think Azizi is one hundred percent right to be a bit miffed at seeing music filched from a black cultural backround and subtly rebranded. (It happens across other cultural/racial borders as well of course, as many discussions on "Celtic or English" and similar topics show).
    People often delight in pointing out that it is impossible to determine the origins of folk music. True, but that does not imply that it is not a fit subject to study. Travelling hopefully has always been better than arriving. Keep it coming, Azizi!

Subject: RE: African American Secular Folk Songs
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 05 - 04:19 PM

Well, Allen, while I understand the spirit of what you are saying,
I can't agree with you.

Prior to the end of slavery in the USA, free or freed African Americans in those times who lived in Southern states or in border Northern or Midwestern states like parts of Ohio or Pennsylvania lived daily with the threat of being kidnapped and sold as slaves.
So the legal institution of chattel slavery was a significant difference that had to have contributed to a greater or lesser degree to the behavior, thoughts, and psyche of both Blacks and Whites.

Not to mention laws that regulated the behavior of Black people including free or freed African Americans. For instance, the testimony of an African American was not accepted in court against a White person. And some states didn't allow free or freed African Americans to live there at all.

But if your point was that most Southern Whites were poor and didn't own slaves, the records show that to be true.

And there was secular musical interaction between the two groups.
To site one example, African American musicians were hired out to White 'frolics' and were noted callers at those barn dances.