BS: Is there a god or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:35 AM

Little Hawk:

In the case that they interest and inspire you, there IS no need to prove anything-

It is when one expects someone else to accept something that proof is required, if the other person has no first-hand experience.

"that is, see all the fairies you wish, but if you make a claim about them and their 'reality', those who don't see them can only shrug and ask YOU to explain why we should do more than shrug. "

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:34 AM

yes there is/no there is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:28 AM

And the untestable realm is not supernatural, it's just supposedly untestable...so far. There are plenty of things that are testable now, and yet were untestable not very long ago, historically speaking. None of those things are or were supernatural.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:24 AM

Bill - Go ahead and shrug. What do I care? The "burden of proof" only rests on the shoulders of those who wish to wear such a burden in the first place. I carry no such burden when it comes to either faerys or God or reincarnation or anything else of the sort. I talk about these things not out of any compulsion to prove them, but merely because they interest me and inspire me.

I cannot fathom why you must prove everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: M'Grath of Altcar
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:38 AM

:o)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:03 AM

MofA...I believe that it was God..for whatever reason... brought you to a Downs Syndrome child and improved the quality of life for that person.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: M'Grath of Altcar
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:59 AM

There's a God alright.

He lives in a cupboard in the back room of my local dry cleaning shop along with the Loch Ness Monster, a perpetual motion machine, an organic herbal cure for cancer, a bunch of aliens and a load of weapons of Mass destruction.

It's a fairy story.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:52 AM

Guest Boab...Forgive me if my interpretation is wrong..or my definition of supernatural is way out..but I always thought the supernatural consisted of happenings which the human consciousness could not understand because they were above the realms of "normal understanding". So I have difficulty with your expression. "There is no supernatural. There are things which we do not understand"
I went to a Church 280 miles from my home, as a complete stranger. A man got up at the front and called several people who had ailments...not by name but by ailment.....to the front, where he prayed over them and they went back to their seats.
At the time I had suffered 10 years of constant pain after a jaw operation...the pain was a pre-occupation in my life as it was always there.
The man said. "There is a man here who had something done to his jaw many years ago and still suffers pain in the right side of it"
My wife and my sister both nudged me to go forward...I was prayed over in tongues by that man and returned to my seat minus the pain!
I believed he must have hypnotised me as I did not understand Gods power at that stage of my life.....over the next four or five days I expected the pain to return but it didn't and hasn't to this day.
To me, in spite of what any critics may say, that was a supernatural act of God as I have no other explanation for it.
In no way could it have been a coincidence or hypnotism...I was healed.
I believe there is a God! Many things have happened since to cement that feeling of there being a God. As my understanding grows so does my faith.
I can't imagine my life without God.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Terry K
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:42 AM

I think one of the main problems is that people are unable to separate "creation" from "god". Whatever set of circumstances created this whole thing, one thing is certain, it didn't create "god". Man created "God" to fill a need.

Theism (a modern concept, in real terms, given that the earth is generally accepted amongst scientists to be around 4,600 million years old) is the creation of, and thenceforth a belief in, a deity.

And a deity is, of necessity, something that is worshipped. The difference all lies in whether or not you are theist (and therefore worship, or atheist (and therefore do not worship).

Little Hawk's consistent view is a fairly standard pantheism, which to me makes much more sense than the monotheistic doctrines with which most "religious people" have been indoctrinated. I therefore share Little Hawk's view but without the worship element - in my case it's more a consciousness and appreciation of all around me. The lack of a theistic element simply proves my atheism.

Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:04 AM

Little Hawk, I find it impossible to define something I find impossible to believe in the existance of.[ I think ]

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 03:28 AM

Pogo---"faith" can be an excellent thing; it can also be the other extreme--a terrible and dangerous state of mind. It all depends on the object of such faith. Faith in the abilities of another person--or a "god", if you like, can result in some seemingly miraculous situations. When Jesus of Nazareth said "Your Faith has made you whole" , he was probably telling the truth. When his disciples said that they saw Him walk on the waves, they were probably telling the truth too---but nothing will ever convince me that He actually DID. Anyone who has ever been involved with a hypnotist will have no trouble understanding this. I once saw the "Indian rope Trick"---a young lad climbed to the top of a rope---which had no apparent anchorage at the top end--and disappeared. I saw it; but I know it did not happen. The man with the power TOLD me to see it. And I did.
   There is no "supernatural". There are things which we do not understand. Think of an eighteenth century clergyman hearing the sound of a jet engine above him, and looking up, seeing a jet propelled airliner. What would he have made of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 12:02 AM

Seems to me we are awful spun up trying to express a notion of something that we define as greater than any notion, and to put in to words that which is beyond all language and even all thought in the normal sense.

Why not give it a rest? You are n't going to get any closer to the reality, or get anyone else closer to it, by heaping rhetoric onto rhetoric as this thread does. Reason being that it is not a lesson of words, but a lesson of the world.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Pogo
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 12:01 AM

Also going with the faery metaphor thing...

why do those who can't see the faeries

keep asking the ones who can see faeries

why they (the non-faerie seerers) should be expected to believe in the existence of faeries

when really the ones who can see faeries

are just happy with being able to see faeries

and don't really care WHY in fact they can see faeries?



Okay...going to sleep now. Really. I'm starting to see faeries too o_O

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Pogo
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 11:26 PM

Yes LH! My point AZACTLY, son!!! {O) how'd you know? ehehhe

MTed: *nods* good points...I think what I was trying to say in a roundabout way is that debating over God's existence simply does not do justice to who and what God is.

Provided of course, you believe that a higher intelligence governs the universe....Which you might not. Which then renders that point moot I guess...

Eh...where explanations falls short, faith takes over, I guess. Me personally I believe faith to be a purer and higher intelligence. But that's a whole 'nuther thread...

Having said that I think I'm gonna go eat me some collards, hang from my tail from a tree and take a nap. Deep ponderin' alluz makes me sleepy...

<{)3

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 11:20 PM

"What if they could see the faerys while someone else could not?"

this would show that fairies were one of those issues that belonged to the untestable realm, and therefore SUPERnatural. And, as always, the burden of proof is on the assertor --that is, see all the fairies you wish, but if you make a claim about them and their 'reality', those who don't see them can only shrug and ask YOU to explain why we should do more than shrug.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 11:12 PM

Ahhhhh, in answer to the question? Sho nuff... and I know Her/Him...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 11:08 PM

"Don't we know archaic barrel
Lullaby, Lilliboy, Louisville Lou.
Trolley, Molly don't love Harold,
Boola, Boola Pennsycoola, hullabaloo"

..then there is "Bark us all, bow-wows of folly"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 11:07 PM

That's true. Millions of people and animals have gotten by fine for millions of years not believing in gravity. It still works even IF they don't believe in it, and it's completely invisible.

People are 100% free to believe or disbelieve in anything they desire. That's what I call "democracy". :-) God is the ultimate democrat.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:50 PM

You can't cheapen the notion of God, because it is impossible to alter God in anyway--and God is greater than any notion. anyway--

It doesn't matter what you believe or disbelieve, except to you--and that doesn't really even matter-- you don't need to believe in Gravity(and there are people who don't), it effects both the believers and non-believers the same way--

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:39 PM

Sing, "Deck us all with Boston Charlie, Walla Walla Wash and Kalamazoo! Norah's freezin' on the trolley, swaller dollar cauliflower, Alleygarooo!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Pogo
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 09:55 PM

okay...

here's the thing...

I'm pretty secure in my own beliefs and they haven't steered me wrong yet and have in fact got me through a great many difficulties in my life.

I do not believe " Christians " should be lumped together into a soulless whole any more than Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus or any religious groups for that matter. My faults and shortcomings are my own, they should not reflect on the next person OR their belief system.

I believe in a loving Heavenly Father and in his son Jesus Christ and many more things that I do not feel inclined to go into great detail on.

BUT I understand too that other people do not and probably never will believe as I believe. That is fine. I do not push religion down people's throats. I only ask that you respect my right to believe as I will and I most certainly will respect yours.

The thing is that you can argue all day long about whether or not God exists but I guarantee you that by the time everything's all said and done, the ones that believe firmly in God will still believe firmly in God and the ones that do not believe in God will still not believe in him. So I ask you (that's the rhetorical 'you' by the way :) )...what then is the point of asking something like " Is there a God or not? " if not to spawn a never-ending cycle of debate and arguement?

Well if that's what you want...go to it. If you're the kind that loves debate for debate's sake well...nothing wrong with that, I guess. But I dunno...basically it seems you're spinning God around in the rinse cycle, hoping to find a dollar and somehow make it worth your while.

Doesn't that sort of cheapen the whole notion of God that you are trying to prove (or disprove as the case may be?)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:58 PM

What if someone could see faerys, Bill? What then? What if they could see the faerys while someone else could not? Would this prove...

1. That one of the people was hallucinating?

or

2. That one of the people had heightened abilities when it came to seeing a certain spectrum of reality?

Your initial prejudices, plus your trust and confidence in the person witnessing the faerys would determine your opinion on that...assuming you were able to form a firm opinion on it. I have met the occasional person who was able to see faerys and various other nature spirits, and I have read some good books on the subject. You don't see them with the physical eye, you see them with what is called in Asia "the Third Eye". It's an energy center in the general position of your pituitary gland. When it "opens" fully, meaning when it is fully activated, you can see spectrums of reality that are not normally visible to the physical eyes...and there are numerous such spectrums of reality. This isn't a miracle or a supernatural occurence, it's just a heightened level of conscious awareness and perception.

I've know about this stuff for so long now that I just shrug when people tell me it's impossible. It's impossible for them all right...so far. That could change at any time.

Are delusions natural? I don't know the answer to that...but they do exist! :-)

Here's a common delusion: "My political party is the good one, and can be trusted to save our nation. The other political party is the bad one and will lead us to hell in a handbasket."

Here are some more: "My religion is the best religion. It is the only true religion. God will punish all those who do not join my religion."

And yet another: "If I could just become rich/famous, my problems would be solved."

And another: "My happiness depends on pleasing other people and doing what they want."

And: "If my nose was smaller and my breasts were larger I would be happy and fullfilled and find Mr Right."

And: "If I had a 12-inch dong I would be happy and have a great sex life!"

Man, there have gotta be thousands of those stupid self-defeating illusions out there...mostly driven by propaganda and insecurity of one kind or another.

Those illusions do tremendous harm to people and society. Seeing faerys does no harm to anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:02 PM

LH..one of best grades I ever got on a History paper was on Papal Infallibility and the 2nd Vatican Council...

I do agree with one sense of the idea that everything is natural, but you and I may differ just a teeny bit about what is included under 'everything'...*grin*
Are delusions 'natural'? That is, in what sense do delusions 'exist'? The idea of Papal Infallibility exists, as does the idea of fairies... and trolls who eat Billy Goats.

The supernatural simply refers to stuff which, by definition, cannot be measured, weighed, photographed, compared...etc...by known natural means.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: s6k
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:54 PM

if there is a god, then he must post a message here, or show himself at the euro mudcat gathering.

if not, i am not going to waste my life going to church etc, in someone i dont even know exists or not

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:35 PM

Wolfgang, the religions which have espoused the idea of many gods have generally done that because those many were symbols of the various aspects of the overall Divinity. Therefore the many were in fact, the One, but expressing through many aspects. That is certainly true of Hinduism. More serious students of that religion understand that the many are different aspects or facets of the One, while people with only a rudimentary understanding may not grasp that, since they are more literal thinkers.

The One is considered indescribable...but you can split it up into a pantheon of individual gods and goddesses which then are somewhat describable, as they relate to certain aspects of life.

Bill - "Supernatural" is a word that people normally use for a natural process that they don't understand. Everything is natural, but not everything is yet understood. They may, of course, also use it for something that they made up which in fact doesn't exist at all, except in their own minds. That often happens in religions.

Catholics, for instance, made up an idea a long time ago about "Papal Infallibility", a supernatural notion which I regard as utterly fictional.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:23 PM

exactly, Wolfgang...the very structure of language supports what you say. We ask "do you BELIEVE in God?" God is not something that is proven, or obvious. One has to decide that he/she accepts supernatural forces, and the basis for decision is not always well thought out.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:15 PM

All what I have seen here offered as arguments or plausibility considerations for the existence of a god starts from the assumption that there is at least one god (I have never understood, BTW, why the existence of a single god, instead of many, should follow from the design argument).

Plausible to those sharing the assumption, unplausible for others.

I think it is better when what I have learned in religious instruction when I was young is followed: Basically, it is a decision by/of faith and nothing else, a strong personal belief without, but also not in need of, the last bit of evidence which would make an intersubjectively valid certainty out of a personal faith.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:57 PM

All what I have seen here offered as arguments or plausibility considerations for the existence of a god starts from the assumption that there is at least one god (I have never understood, BTW, why the existence of a single god, instead of many, should follow from the design argument).

Plausible to those sharing the assumption, unplausible for others.

I think it is better when what I have learned in religious instruction when I was young is followed: Basically, it is a decision by/of faith and nothing else, a strong personal belief without, but also not in need of, the last bit of evidence which would make an intersubjectively valid certainty out of a personal faith.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:50 PM

The Baptist recognised the phenomenon which confronted him. He also described God in one word. The ONLY word that holds all truth; he said "God is Love".
Love does exist. Accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 02:42 PM

Actually, Gervase, STA did offer that, and four other arguements, as proof-- and he did say "Therefore there is something intelligent by which all natural things are arranged in accordance with a plan---and this we call God."

You see order in the Universe, the various and sundry laws of science, the only reason that you don't see it as the hand of God is very simply that you prefer to call it something else--STA called it God, long before you decided that it was something else--you of course, are more than welcome to provide another definition of God, or may, simply may want to clarify what it is that you don't believe in-

Your comment that "a tetradhedron makes best use of the bonds of the carbon atom" presumes the existance of other possibilities, and they way that you use the word "best" implies that there is a higher value that has been imposed--

The Acquinian proof opened the doors to science because it presented the idea that there was an order to the universe that was logical, and therefore, knowable--this is a tenet which is implicit in the pursuit of science--



dunkel esel: You said" St. Aquina's theory is all very well, but it has one main flaw... it assumes that the world does have order and a clear design. It doesn't. Natural disasters aren't orderly, neither is cancer. "

Scientific examination shows that both natural disasters and cancer do have an order to them--but it doesn't make them easier to deal with--we are born, we live, and we die--a clear design, and one that repeats itself without exception--(unless you believe that Christ was the one exception, but in that case, you wouldn't be inclined to refute STA)--

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 01:36 PM

stigweird... Martin Carthy is God?....gee, on this page they use almost the same argument, but they worship Eric Clapton. Does this support Polythesim?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 01:08 PM

Eric, as an atheist (which I was for a long time too) you DO define God in some way. You define God as an idea that someone else came up with...which you regard to be a mistaken idea. So...how do you define this idea of God, the God which you believe does not exist? You cannot deny something until you have established in your mind what it IS that you are denying! Define that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Displaced Camelotian
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:55 AM

On 9/11 I heard shell-shocked people in New York trying to comfort each other by saying, "God is in control. God is in control."

Given the circumstances, I didn't find that very comforting.

I have a good friend who insists that God allowed the Black Death, chattel slavery, and the Holocaust "to prevent something much worse."
I suppose if general nuclear war ever breaks out, the argument will be the same.

And if those starving children are God screaming at you, it would seem that God reproaches some people by having others die in agony.

I don't find that very comforting either.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: dunkel_esel
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:38 AM

M Ted,

St. Aquina's theory is all very well, but it has one main flaw... it assumes that the world does have order and a clear design. It doesn't. Natural disasters aren't orderly, neither is cancer.

We are all here due to chance, not design.

mjxx

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:30 AM

Thanks, SueB. I sometimes wonder if anyone really listens to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:22 AM

Why is that ? Mr Ted, because I like to help people don't you.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Gervase
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:11 AM

M.Ted - order=intellect therefore there is a divine purpose? Aquinas is not offering proof, merely an observation.
For me the fact that there is an apparent order within the universe - from the periodic table to the Fibonacci sequence - does not constitute any 'proof' of a god; merely that, for example, a tetradhedron makes best use of the bonds of the carbon atom. There is a logic there, but I'm afraid I don't see the hand of god at work.
As for the Aquinean 'proof' opening the doors to science; yes, but only insofaras it allowed an interfering and proscriptive church brought up on the 'because I said so' arguments of St Anselm to'ease up on the persecution of those who prefered observation and experiment to the blind acceptance of scripture.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Stu
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:02 AM

Of course there is a god - but we call him Martin Carthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:01 AM

Love the way Kendall turns a phrase - where can I get me one of them god suits, Kendall?

Also love the one about "that's like getting up from a banquet and saying there's no cook." Of course, the existence of a cook is easier to work out, just stick your head in the kitchen and watch them scurry. Hmm, multiple cooks, multiple gods - an argument for pantheism. The lesser gods chop vegetables day in and day out and scream at waitresses when they're not screwing them in the walk-in.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 09:55 AM

M Ted:

"The things, moreover, that do not have intelligence do not tend toward a result unless directed by some one knowing and intelligent; just as an arrow is sent by an archer. Therefore there is something intelligent by which all natural things are arranged in accordance with a plan---and this we call God."

I think that this point, which is assumed, can be argued.

Is water intelligent? Does it run downhill, as oppoesed to uphill? And where is the intelligent direction?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 09:35 AM

I don't know about you all--I posted a very good proof of the existance of God, which also includes a definition of God, and you blew it off---that is pretty cold--

Eric the Red said:
>I'm an atheist and if I can help someone during my day it has not been wasted

Why is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 09:11 AM

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I
realized that The Lord doesn't work that way, so I stole one and asked him to forgive me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:54 AM

Yes...but It is a absentee Landlord, and we tenants live in the Projects

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:27 AM

NO of course I don't believe that, but that religious zealot Osama Bin Laden does and Irish catholics and protestants have been trying to kill each other for generations, just don't shove your religion down someone else's throat.
I'm an atheist and if I can help someone during my day it has not been wasted, regardless of race creed or religion.
eric

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: IanC
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:08 AM

So, Eric

If the god we believe in makes it clear that we should be affecting other peoples' lives for the better (for example if they are starving or being murdered in Sudan) then we had better not do anything about it?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:05 AM

Wanna hear God laugh? tell him what you have planned for your life.
I've lost many dear friends and relatives in my life, some died way too young but that doesn't mean there is no God! Just because I don't get my way I'm supposed to believe there is no God? That would require quite an ego.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:53 AM

I don't define god, I have been an atheist since my old man died fifty years ago.
Incidently though, I do respect other peoples rights to believe any creed or religion they chose providing it does not affect or encroach on my or other peoples lives.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:49 AM

eric, I believe that when we come into this life, we came with certain soul promises. You have heard the saying, no pain no gain? Ok, think of it this way, as you progress through school, each class is a bit harder than the previous one until you attain the top. Ok, we must go through "hell" to gain enlightenment, and all sorts of slings and arrows of outrageous fortune will be visited on us on the way. Each incarnation is tougher than the previous one.

Or, if you prefer, "I saw starving children and I screamed at God. Then I realized that those starving children were God screaming at me"!

Finally, if you prefer, nature is not cruel; nature doesn't care.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:39 AM

eric the red:

Your arguement is a good one for the idea that there is not one god- but allows for several gods in conflict with each other...

But I have to say that LH's comment is the most significant so far-

"It just depends on how you define God, John. By the by, how DO you define God? "


I think the pharse is that "each of us define God in our own image."

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:27 AM

If ' god ' existed and was as great and good as christians and other believers would have us believe then he is indeed cruel in the extreme. Would a merciful god allow bad people to kill children and babies for political purposes ? and if you trot out the old argument
about him giving us free will I ask you this, why did he let my old man die, a man who never harmed anyone or anything in his life and died in pain leaving a wife and four kids ?
There are no gods.

eric