BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 02:39 PM

Forces of nature were responsible for Katrina and a criminal was responsible for the chickens.

Attributing it to sin is another way to control a group of innocent people. Its called victimizing the victim and is a highly effective way to absolve the responsibility of those directly involved.

Many others made it possible for Shevach to commit this crime and many others are responsible for the disaster of New Orleans. There is no way the victims should be held accountable to provide cover for those who are responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 10:13 AM

John, Pat Robertson did indeed attribute Katrina to Divine Wrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 11:02 PM

Steve, some probably did say that the devastation of New Orleans was God's punishment. Certainly in another era some prophet might have called for repentance and/or sacrifice. And even though we are now 'enlightened', maybe the hand God really was involved. This is not, I might add, my belief, but maybe....

Regarding your choice of definition of 'kill' at answer.com, had you been a bit more inquisitive you could have looked up 'murder'; you would have noted there is a definitional difference between them.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 09:05 PM

No disrespect intended, but how can one "repent" of something one didn't know one was doing? Doesn't "repentance" require a commitment not to do that anymore? How can one commit not to do something one didn't know one was doing? I'm beginning to understand why dovening.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: LilyFestre
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 06:37 PM

Rabbi Sol,

    Why the fundraisers? Are they related to this particular incident or maybe had they been planned way ahead of time for something else?

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) kosher chicken crisis
From: GUEST,steve
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 06:26 PM

OK point missed. Late night, early morning . Sorry

It doesn't answer this "tragedy" I questioned.

In reply to Rabbi Sol's post of 4.18pm. Supernatural calamities don't befall communities because of the misdemeanors of individual members of the same community. That is superstition.

Otherwise you could say that the flooding which hit New Orleans was a result of the debauchery and rock and roll therein.

We are all sinners. It doesn't make us responsible for other people's sins. Otherwise the same logic would apply, that if someone from another community did you wrong, the whole of their community would bear personal responsibility.

Thats the very same mindset, which causes wars to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 05:25 PM

Hazak Hazak v'yitnasekh!

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 04:18 PM

There were many charity fundraisers that were scheduled for this Sunday morning in Monsey which included breakfast. Now, because of the Fast Day decreed by the Rabbis they have all been rescheduled for the evening when people will once again be allowed to eat. There will also be a "Kinus Hisorerus", literally translated as an awakening assembly. People will gather in Monsey's largest synagogue to recite the Psalms and the 13 Attributes of Mercy. Our Rabbinnic leaders will exhort the crowd to undertake a sincere regimen of repentance for having eaten treif, albeit involuntarily, in the hope that no calamity will befall our community as a result of this truly tragic occurrance.
                                                 SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 09:15 AM

You missed my point Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 07:24 AM

guest, Steve

You miss the point. In the Hebrew, the word is NOT "Kill" it is "murder". The definition of kill is not significant.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,steve
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 02:52 AM

Ron

As I previously stated, this is an open forum, and was instigated by someone who brought their own religious slant on to it, so I am perfectly within my right to give my own religious slant. I am not passing judgement, or being hypocritical (which I understand to be doing one thing, and saying another).

As a christian, I believe God will forgive everyone their sins, providing they are genuinely repentant, and in any case, it is my duty to forgive regardless, as I am not without sin myself and also subject to a higher judgement.

John

According to answers.com ,there are up to fourteen definitions for the word kill, one of which murder. Out of all of them, this is the only one which appears relevant to the context in which the revelation was given

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 08:56 PM

Guest,Steve - In the King James Bible God says, 'Thou shalt not kill'; in the original Hebrew He said, 'You will not murder'. Not exactly the same meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 08:41 PM

"God will forgive any one who repents"

Whose rule is that exactly?   Yours?   So what you are telling us is that you feel that god will forgive anyone and everyone should abide by that. Yet when someone has a different interpretation of the word, you have a problem with that. As I said earlier, isn't it a bit hypocritical to pass judgement on following rules while trying to instill rules of your own?

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,steve
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 08:28 PM

Sorry guest 8.24pm was me Steve, same guest of 8.9.06 at 8.05pm

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 08:24 PM

As this is an open forum, and having questioned this as "major tragedy" earier on in the thread, I note that Rabbi Sol is anticipating major suffering for Finkel in hereafter. Get a life.

Nobody died. Yes he was deceitful, and mislead people. But why the collective trauma? God will forgive any one who repents. No-one else has ever been at fault in the matter.

As a vegetarian, I deeply regret accidently stepping on snails, but shit happens.

The problem I have with the "major tragedy" aspect of it is that pots and pans can be replaced, hurt feelings can be got over. Loss of life cannot be replaced.

When God (or G-d, keying it in is the same),said though shalt not kill, that was what he exactly meant. The eleventh wasn't thou shall wash your pots and pans(or have collective angst, about the whole matter).

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 07:33 PM

The thread is surely getting long, but since my comments came up I think I need to respond:

Dee: Though you did not mention my comments I think you are being overly sensitive to a "non-situation". Most everybody has been respectful and questioning. Which, as I recall, is expected of us ---even to question Jaweh---God--if you will.

Rshmiel---great commentary. I laughed out loud at the great pun about "...passed over".   I always appreciate a good play on words.

Now to OJFP:   Are you suggesting anti-semitism on my part?   Hope not. I belong to the questioning and unconviced part of the tribe.   As I question all organized religion.

                Not to take this discussion too far off track---that would require another thread---people have beliefs and they should be respected.   That people have such belief and that it helps them through their "biological" life is a great comfort, I am sure.   Is it based on fact, logic, reality? That is a question for another thread and one that I am sure I am not capable of answering.

                As to Einstein--he was mentioned. He has always amazed me. Brilliant and honestly, it seems, subverted his genius to logic to some almighty being.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 06:10 PM

GUEST, Grose:

Your answer is totally understandable, if you want to maintain the tautology that predictions that have not yet come true are unproven and predictions that have come true are proven. In this way you can justify yourself but you haven't proven anything. In order for something to be truly scientifically 'true' there must be an accepted way to 'disprove' it. This is NOT the case with predictions, be they biblical or be they Nostradamus or some other high caste charlatan.

As for Darwin, thank you for following up on the link, but I think you may possibly have only read enough of the full quote as you agree with. Darwin was making the point that nature (or, if you wish, God acting through nature) has produced some astonishing products which it is hard to understand as developing through evolutionary means. But as our knowledge and our understanding increase over time, we may achieve that understanding that indeed in what we call primitive creatures, there are some cells that are sensitive to light, and over time these useful assemblies of cells become more and more complex. You make a common error when you use the phrase: the eye having "fallen into place" correctly with all connections exactly the way it should be. The Theory of Natural Selection is strictly about how nature works to change living creatures over time based on which survives and reproduces. There is no set destination, and indeed there are many 'eyes' that work that do not remotely resemble our eyes, for example, arthropod eyes. Similar arguments have been made over the development of bird wings, or for that matter, the chemical process of photosynthesis. But what can't be denied is the fact of evolution itself. There are critters from millions of years ago that aren't around now, and there are creatures around now, such as you and me, who weren't around ten million years ago. And there are obvious structural and behavioral similarities between families of creatures. And if God was doing the design work, why'd He do such a poor job with the appendix, conjoined and deformed babies, and the prostate?

Einstein came out with really neat ideas, a lot of which are still accepted, but he by no means answered all possible questions, and he made no progress with Quantum Theory, which is still accepted theory but doesn't dovetail with relativity. If it suits you to mix in your religious understanding with 'true' science, by all means, but it is no different than believing that numerology can tell you how to invest in the stock market or bet on the horses.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,grose
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 03:26 PM

DMcG: A very intelligent question. And the answer is that the rabbis in that era felt that some of the predictions came true in the times of the Romans, but that some of them still were to come true in the future. As I had explained before and as others had explained before, there were rabbis 200 years before the Holocaust who were commentators on these books and who explained that these curses were still to come - rabbis such as the Meshech Chachma. In fact, there are more predictions he made that still did not happen with the Holocaust, which means we are due for some more predictions to come true.
hope that answers the question with a resounding "yes the rabbis said it would come" prior to when it happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 03:16 PM

I forget to say this:

Sol, I am deeply sorry that you and your community have been exploited in this way. The actions of your supplier were undoubtedly both legally and morally wrong; the more so because they were carried out with a full appreciation of the religious significance of the fraud. I hope your community can organise some way of ensuring that both your own and other Jewish communities can be better protected from such deceit in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 03:03 PM

Guest, Grose: I put together a fairly long post in reply to yours and then decided it as all thread-drift, so deleted it. But you might want to look at the writings of the Biblical scholars in the 19th century and find out whether they thought the punishment that the fifth book of the Bible prophesied was something that had already happened or something that still had to happen. If they thought it was still to come, it would support your statement that the Bible predicted the Holocaust. If, on the other hand, they believed it had already happened then your "scientific proof" is suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 02:17 PM

Apparently it turns out that this was not Finkel's first transgression. Last night in Synagogue I met a Rabbi who I have known for the past year and who has spent most of his carreer in the field of kosher supervision. He informed me that 7 years ago, Finkel tried to bring treifa meat in the form of beef tounges and chickens into Monsey's largest catering hall, The Atrium, on Route 59. The Atrium maintains its own separate kosher kitchen which all of the kosher caterers use and has its own Mashgiach to make sure that everything that comes in there is properly certified. All kosher meat has to bear a plumber (the "b" is pronounced unlike the English word) which is a metal identification tag that is attached at the meat packing plant by the supervising Rabbi. The Masgiach at the Atrium confronted Finkel when he did not see any plumbers attached to the tounges or chickens and Finkel responded that they fell off. Anyone who has ever seen one of these plumbers knows how securely it is attached. It has to be literally cut off with a knife. Needless to say the Masgiach did not buy Finkel's story and refused to let the meat in. He then proceeded to call up all the wholesale suppliers of Glatt Kosher meat (there are only about 5) and asked them if this was their shipment. All of them said, "absolutely not". He then called Rabbi Breslauer who is Finkel's supervising Rabbi and reported what had taken place. Finkel got away with just a slap on the wrist after promising Rabbi Breslauer that he would be a good boy from now on, and Rabbi Breslauer took him at his word. However from that day on, Finkel's meat was never again allowed into the Atrium at all.

                                                   SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,grose
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 01:26 PM

as for prophecies that we now prove is true retrospectively:
1. That is the only way to accurately and in a manner of science prove it. If it didn't happen yet, I can't prove to you that it is true. But if it did happen, and G-d had predicted it, I have "scientifically" sound proof.
2. There are other prophecies which have yet to come true. I can't prove that they will come true. That is belief. I believe they will come true, because to date, anything promised so far has happened. Therefore, if you want to debunk me when they come true and I say "aha, told you they'll come true" you can read them now so you know the prophecies were in place before the event occured and were clear prophecies, not embedded, encoded ones.
3. Just as with prophecies coming true, science ends up proving what we have been taught by G-d centuries ago. Therefore, where the two don't coincide I will stick to G-d's version, and wait until science catches up to the reality. An example of this would be the length of a lunar month, which had been the basis of the Jewish calendar for thousands of years - and which calculation has been proven true because NASA, with the new-fangled tech, has come up with the same exact figure. Hence, I have no problem where my religion and science don't jibe. I realize science is an "evolutionary" process and will someday catch up to our realities.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,grose
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 01:16 PM

robomatic: I checked out your link. All you are saying is that Darwin said it isn't reality, therefore it isn't. Darwin did not prove how to overcome this real problem of the eye having "fallen into place" correctly with all connections exactly the way it should be. It always amazes me how much more "faith" and "belief" folks have in Darwin, claiming that religion is "faith" and "belief".
G-d created bad just as He created good. He created bad as a tool for good. Bad does bad, but G-d uses bad for good. If you know a bit of painting, when they want to get the whitest colors in your house, they add a bit of black into the mix. Expensive perfume has a mix in it of a nasty smelling element. For the perfect world to have perfect good, G-d created bad. Bad is bad. But bad, used by G-d is for the good. and I'm glad you brought in Einstein, because if you do agree with his science as being "true" science (which in itself can engender a whole philosophy discussion as to true etc.) much of what Einstein discovered backs up religious realities, including the time is relative one.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:59 PM

It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure." -- Albert Einstein

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:48 PM

OJFP:

Well written response! Not being as erudite as yourself, I phrase it as: "God is great, God is good, but God don't do 'nice'!"

Guest, Grose: You are repeating the fallacy (I'm sure there's a name for it, but I'm not sure what it is) of arguing that the future is predicted in ancient writings but only after that predicted event has occurred. I'm sure you can find anything has been predicted, so long as it has already occurred!

As for Darwin, I don't believe he ever indicated that the structure of the eye disproved his theory, and in fact it does not disprove his theory. Some discussion on your inaccurate reference can be found here. As for the numerology between 'eye' (what language) and your perception of what an eye 'connection' means, you can prove anything with that, too.

True science, not ersatz science, has been described by Einstein as an attempt to "understand the mind of God". Ersatz science is an attempt to justify an existing belief by bending interpretations and linguistic arts in the service of self-justification. This has been done all too often with Darwin and has been successfully lampooned in The Onion with faith-based gravitation.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 11:22 AM

Regarding beliefs about causality, I came to the conclusion a long time ago that there is a wide confusion about what G'd blesses, what He allows, and what He intervenes to stop. "He hasn't stopped my [insert behavior here], so I guess He must want me to do it."

My experience is that what He wants us to do, when we do it, He blesses outrageously and abundantly in ways we could not have foreseen or expected. He stops us when it's the only way to break through our thick, hard layer of denial such that we have stopped listening to Him entirely. In between those two approaches, He calls us to allow His transforming grace to carry us toward His vision for us. That doesn't mean He approves, or that He is punitive-- it means He lovingly stays close to invite us to think to pray, to reconsider.

There's also a lot of confusion around the term "repentance." To repent simply means, in the original language, to turn around. I think of it more as an "Ah-Hah!" moment than as an occasion for breast-beating or self-castigation: "I wanted to go THERE but instead I got myself HERE! I gotta go back to my wrong turn-- or cut through this forest to get back on my way!"

YMMV.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,Grose
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 11:10 AM

Grab - that too is dealt with in Judaism, where our choice ends. Maimonides says that "all is in the hands of G-d, except for matters of reverence of G-d" What that means is that G-d can decide to put me in Monsey, to put me in Auschwitz, etc., but what I will do in those places, whether or not I will heed His commandments in those places is in my realm of choice. I did not choose my hair color, my eye color, the family I was born to, etc. I decide what to do with these gifts that G-d gave me - whether to serve Him with those tools He gave me or not.
I don't know why folks think religion is based on belief and faith and not on reality. Reality is that in the fifth book of the Bible, G-d prophesized to our nation that we would be punished in the manner of the Holocaust. This prediction was cast way before, thousands of years before, the event ever happened. Coincidence that the punishment promised to our nation if we strayed came true? Spectacular made up stories by rabbis that somehow came about anyway? You can call that faith, but it is acually reality - a punishment was promised for thousands of year and guess what, it happened! I could go on and on for years on all the realities that make G-d a reality and not a faith or belief. However, most folks don't want to face that reality, because attached to that reality is a realization that if there is a Creator that demands of us proper behavior, we might have to deliver that behavior. You know the old joke about this? A man was trying to teach his son about Divine Supervision of indiviual lives. So he tells the kid, "son, a man goes to the top of the Eiffel tower and jumps down...and isn't hurt - what do you call that." and the kid answers, "chance." The father doesn't give up, he wants his kid to understand the concept of miracles, so he tries again, "son, the same man goes again to the top of the tower and jumps down and walks away unscathed - what do you call that." The son prompty replies, "coincidence." The father sighs and tries again, "son, same guy, same tower, same scenario, jump and nothing happens, what would you call that?!" The son shrugs and asks, "habit?" Everything can be shoved under the carpet in life just so we don't face our Maker. "nature" "coincidence" etc. Two places where you see the Hand of G-d obviously orchestrating this world is science and history. In both the reality of G-d is undeniable. Darwin once wrote to a friend that when he thinks of the eye he breaks out in sweat cuz that alone debunks his whole theory of evolution -the hundreds of minute connections that must line up exactly for someone to see. Incidentally, the numerical value of the Hebrew word for eye is identical to the amount of connections there are in the eye. The world G-d created is so precise, if we took time to study the precision, we would finally see reality of G-d.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 08:55 AM

GUEST,Orthodox Jewish Female Person,

I thank you sincerely for sharing your beliefs with a curious stranger.

I do not share your beliefs, but I truly respect them.

I also sincerely apologize for any discomfort my questions have caused you or any participant in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 06:22 AM

Don't ask questions like that, Grab. Why did the Jews get the blame for killing Jesus, and not the Romans (the answer might lie somewhere between market share and Constantine)? Whoever did it, it had to be done to save mankind, so they say, so why blame anyone? But the upshot was that the Jews got 2000 years of hell for it, and the Romans got the Pope.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Grab
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 06:06 AM

When a person asks "why", and they really mean "It hurts too much to bear", an answer is not what they need at that time. First they need compassion.

That's really beautifully put, Guest OJ.

I don't really agree with the notion of the cause of bad stuff happening being the person to whom it happens. As a sceptic and a believer that God's approach is more hands-off, I'm personally convinced it's down to people's free will to choose good or evil. If we say that God decided to punish the Jewish community by having Moshe Finkel distribute non-kosher meat, surely that absolves Finkel from blame? He is then the agent of divine justice, after all. I know it's a simplistic argument, but I think that if God is intervening in this way then any notion of free will goes out the window. But I *can* well believe that God watches what goes on when we're pushed to our limits, and judges us on how well we deal with it. In that sense God is using pre-existing situations created by evil people to evaluate us. And this is also compatible with the secular morality of good people being the ones who don't break under pressure.

Sorry for drifting a bit off the topic there. :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,an Orthodox Jewish Female Person
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 03:46 AM

Thank you R' Shmiel. Your post is a masterpiece IMHO! I have copied it, and intend to keep it.

I am choosing to respond to what was already said regarding the possibility that the holocaust could have had a connection to assimilation.

Robo-
I am quoting part of a comment above by "Bill Hahn": "A disaster has befallen people and the question to me is why, if you believe in this almighty being, do you feel we have to be introspective?   Seems to me that both are horrible occurrences. One made my man [holocaust] One made by nature [tsunami]. Either way a disaster of great proportions.
If you say that God (note I left out the inane - ) (why not say Jawah) punished people in a Tsunami then it would have to follow--logically---that He (note the capital letter) also endorsed Adolf. One cannot have it both ways"

I am not promoting anti-semitism. Anti-semites do not need my help. People with an agenda, will use anything I say or do to prove their point. (If I'm rich I'm a thief, if I'm poor, I'm a leech, if I live near you, I am crowding you in, if I move away, I'm a snob, If I'm successful, I want to control the world, if I'm unsuccessful, I am lazy... the list goes on.) You may be uncomfortable with the idea that we as Jews may have a different path. It is irrelevant whether others respect that or condemn it. The path that is presented to us by the Torah, remains the same. Judaism is an all encompassing life system. It is not a popularity contest!
The Torah tells us, that when we Jews stray, G-d will remind us to come back to Him, and it will not be pleasant (It says this in the Shema, which is written on the parchment of a mezzuza). The perpetrators of the Holocaust did not intend to help the Jewish people improve their practice of Judaism! Their intent was to annihilate a people whom they deemed unworthy of existing. They were evil, and will give any excuse to say we "deserve" this. They worship themselves, not G-d. They may think, like the ancient Romans conquerors did, that their successes prove that they were right. But the ancient Romans are gone. The Jewish people are still here, and continue to survive.
We are taught that G-d sometimes 'uses' evil people when He chastises us in such a drastic way. That does not make them any less evil, or guilty.
The nations or individuals that are determined to learn from the past, and educate people about the evils of baseless hatred, are noble people. Their efforts to improve our society and prevent another Holocaust are noteworthy, and valuable. This is not a contradiction to what I have said about our personal reckoning as Jews.
The introspection I referred to is between us and G-d, not between us and Nazis. Assimilation is the concern of all Jews, including the ones who remain observant. We are not permitted to become ostriches when it comes to our brothers. Despite the fact that I have great pride that my great-grandparents did not assimilate in Europe or in this tolerant country, I can not rest on my laurels. If I do not care that other Jews are assimilating, if I do not hurt for the potential they are dismissing, if I do not do my utmost to expose them to the beauty and truth of their heritage, then I am partially liable for their loss. At times I may identify the anti-Torah actions of my brothers and sisters. This is an issue of integrity: to protest when G-d's word is trampled, and to prevent others from being misled. But I am supposed to remember that they are my brothers and sisters, and to act toward them as such. And as any family member would, I should set a proper example by living in a way that shows the beauty of Torah, and always be willing to teach it. I should be concerned with their well being in all humanitarian areas. And I should leave the door open... and never stop hoping and praying that they find their way home.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,Guest - R' Shmiel from BP
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:54 AM

Like many others, I came across this blog as I was googling the meat story. I see that many people are avidly following this who are not adherents of our traditions, and thus are misunderstanding many issues. I also see that many of them are not so polite in their disagreements, and for this I must express my admiration to "Rabbi Sol" for the amazing amount of patience that he shows in putting up with this! In order to help set the record straight, I would like to clarify several issues, hoping that many of you may gain some insight into what "makes us tick".

First of all, let me clarify a few points that did not seem to be expressed so clearly:
The dishes are not forbidden to derive benefit from, however they should not be kept in the house, to avoid inadvertantly using them. They may be sold, but on ebay you have no way of making sure that they are not bought by a Jew. Selling or giving treife dishes to a Jew, no matter how unaffiliated or non-observant, is just as serious as what the butcher did, albeit on a much smaller scale.

The laws of Judaism we bellive to be Divine in origin, from both the written (Five Books of Moses) and the oral (Talmud & Code of Jewish Law) Torah. They are, therefore, not subject to change. Circumstances may change, and therefore, the application of the laws may be different, but the laws themselves do not change. Since the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, and we may not offer sacrifices anywhere else, we no longer offer sacrifices. This has nothing to do with "adapting" to society, but with the stark reality of our situation. Rabbenu Gershom (known as "The Light of the Exile") in the 11th century, forbade polygamy for Ashkenazic (Eastern European) Jewry as a preventative measure, when he saw the detrimental effect it was having on people. (It is a fundamental principle of the Torah that the Rabbinical leaders of the time have the right to make decrees upon the Jewish people when necessary to strengthen the community or to prevent communal problems, such as what we just experienced.) The kosher laws do not change, but are applied to the circumstances involved. This has caused great confusion with some aspects of today's food service technology, and very often even the most learned Rabbis will not agree on things.

The issue of the entire Jewish Community "repenting" for this incident seems to have struck many people in an odd way. It seems to me that this has not been explained in a very clear way, maybe I can shed some light on it for you.

To begin, belief in G-d is a fundamental cornerstone in Judaism, and is, historically, perhaps Judaism's main contribution to society, even though we do not place so much emphasis on "dogma" as we do on our laws. Over 3800 years ago, our Patriarch Abraham appeared on the scene of the world, where every civilization worshipped its own assortment of various gods, idols, spirits, powers, etc. Abraham's thesis, that there was but one Almighty G-d who created and maintains the world was what distinguished him from the nations, and was carried on by his descendants for millenia afterwards. Now, debating this is not the purpose of this thread, therefore I will not elaborate further; however, for purposes of understanding this concept, it is crucial that we make this clear. I understand that many of the people who have posted here may take issue with this concept, but that is irrelevant; it is our community that you are trying to understand, so step one has to be to accept that in our collective minds, this is a given.

That being said, our concept of G-d is clearly spelled out by the Torah and Talmud: we cannot possibly understand Him or fathom His ways. However, the Torah has given us certain information about G-d which applies to our interactions with Him in this world. Among them are the thirteen Attributes of Mercy, which in the coming weeks of the High Holiday season, we will repeat over and over in our prayers. Yes, we believe that G-d is All-Merciful to those who repent of their misdeeds. Another core belief of Orthodox Judaism is that G-d is constantly sustaining and maintaining control of our world, even though he has given us freedom of choice in our actions. This does not affect his control; quite the contrary: His goals will be accomplished regardless of how much we try to change them. This is quite a complicated concept, one that even our great sage Maimonides had a tough time explaining, and should perhaps be saved for another post. However, this is necessary to understand the concept of All-Mercifulness that we are dealing with: the great Kabbalist, Rabbi Moshe Cordevero, explains in his work "Tomer Devorah" that since we believe that G-d is constantly keeping us alive and sustaining us, this holds true even while we are sinning!!! G-d not only does not send lightning bolts to fry us when we sin, but he continues to keep our bodies and organs working, even as we defy him! The Jewish concept of Divine reward and punishment is clear that this world is not the time or place for either; any occurences which occur are not necessarily reward or punishment, but rather part of the Divine plan, which our limited human faculties cannot possibly fathom. There is also a concept of Divine Intervention, where G-d circumvents the free will which he has given us, such as the hardening of Pharoh's heart as described in the events leading up to the Exodus, or where G-d causes an unfortunate accident to occur despite our precautions. These may be due to any number of reasons, of which we can only guess. Sometimes, as I saw mentioned in a previous post, it may be to atone for one's sins in this world, so that upon leaving this world one may enter immediately into the reward of the world to come. Sometimes, it may be because we have failed to merit divine protection in a certain area. And sometimes it may be a blessing in disguise, to save us from or alert us to a calamity. I will not go into any hypothesis about the Holocaust, 9/11, or any other such things, as this is not the subject of this thread. I will rather share with you a story which relates to a similar predicament:

The story is told of a Chassidic sage of yesteryear, who used to go to great lengths in his observance of the Passover Holiday and all the regulations thereof. He took the utmost precautions that no particle of leaven should be present in his home, and the foods were all prepared in house, by his family. Everything was meticulously cleaned and checked, the kitchen kashered, and the Matzos were baked under his scrupulous supervision with every conceivable stringency. As darkness fell on Passover eve, he sat at the Seder table with his family, and they conducted the Seder service in a mood of sublime ecstacy; this was the culmination of all their hard work. After they recited the Haggadah and ate the Matza and Marror (bitter herbs) the meal was served. When his wife brought him a bowl of soup, his exalted mood suddenly turned to darkness and confusion. After all their toil and effort, a kernel of wheat was swimming in his bowl, a seemingly impossible occurance. This put quite a damper on his enthusiasm, besides leaving him without a soup pot or bowls fit for Passover use. He spent the rest of the Seder in total confusion, perplexed at this situation.

At the first opportunity to do so, he made a "dream query", a special Kabbalistic formula for a Heavenly answer to deep spiritual questions. First of all, why had this happened? Was it to atone for his sins in this world, or was it a wake-up call to some spiritual calamity that he was in? And second of all, how on Earth had it happened, despite all of his precautions?

Over the night, his answer came: the mishap had occurred to teach him a fundamental error that he had made. True, he had made admirable preparations for the holiday, thoroughly and flawlessly. Yes, he had done it in joy, with a pure heart, and without any ulterior motive save to serve G-d thereby. But he had left out one ingredient, the most crucial ingredient: he had neglected to pray for Divine assistance in accomplishing his task. Despite all the precautions, we must acknowledge that we are at G-d's mercy, and nothing can be accomplished without His help and guidance. With all our safety measures, we must pray for his protection. As far as the second question, how did it happen? The answer was surprisingly simple: a bird flying over the chimney with a kernel of wheat in his mouth opened his mouth as he passed over (excuse the pun) and the kernel fell down the chimney, and into the pot of soup cooking over the fire.
What this means to us, is that we must engage in some serious soul-searching to determine where we are lacking, what is it that caused us to lose our Divine protection. In today's society, as always, we still need G-d's help to succeed in following His teachings. This applies to our marriages, raising our children, our jobs, our day-to-day interactions. No matter how much we work on our relationships, we still need G-d to show us to our spouses in a favorable light. As much work as we put into raising our children and finding the right school to send them to, one "rotten apple" in the class can give them the push down the slope into depravity and delinquincy. And after answering the want ads and going on interviews with our well-padded resumes, we still need him to push the boss' decision in our direction. After completing a project for the CFO at two in the morning following a day of hard work, blood, sweat, and tears, if the exec reads it before he's had his coffee, or after a harsh toung-lashing from his wife for whatever he did wrong at home, he'll berate us and write up negative comments in our file, nixing that raise or promotion we needed so desperately. In all these cases, and countless others, what matters to us is to show our total dependance and reliance on G-d, even though we go through all the motions.

And here in Monsey, or Boro Park, or wherever, what we have to ask ourselves is, how much effort are we really expending in keeping the kosher laws? Are we taking shortcuts for convenience? Who are we relying on? Are we really making the effort, and are we really besseching G-d for his help in keeping our mouths and bodies free from the spiritual malice of trefa food? When Kashrus is mass-produced, the standards suffer. Does it really need to be so? If less people eat at a wedding, and more people come just for dancing, will that make the Kashrus supervision more manageable (besides making our budget more manageable, and lessening the social pressure for people to make such large and extravagant wedding dinners)? If we roll up our sleeves and work to prepare Passover at home, won't that be a much better standard of Kashrus than the rushed kashering of a hotel with all the loopholes in the laws that are utilized to do such a massive job in such a short time? (Never mind if the other, non-kosher kitchens in the hotel are still functioning simultaneously!) For that matter, do we really belong in a hotel on Passover? Do we really need such wide varieties of candy, nosh, junk food, and every product under the sun? Our parents and grandparents didn't have such a wide variety of candies to choose from. In fact, we didn't even have such a large selection of Jewish Junk Food as our kids do. Is it really necessary? I could go on and on lambasting the state of Kashrus in America today, but that is not the point. This should be a massive wake-up call to us to tighten up our standards, and exercise a bit of restraint. And, as many Rabbis have pointed out, we need to apply the same Glatt-Kosher standards to what comes out of our mouths as we do for what goes in. There are numerous laws of speech in the Torah. How careful are we? The mouth is a holy tool, but it can also be a deadly weapon.

There is also a need for those who inadvertantly ate from this meat to undergo a sort of spiritual detox process. The Sages teach us that non-kosher food dulls a Jew's spiritual capabilities, and damages the soul. Think of it this way: if someone accidentally ingested something that brings on an allergic reaction, despite labels and numerous assurances that this food did not contain the allergen, he still has a reaction from it, and needs medical treatment. So too, those who ate trefa, even unsuspectingly, need to treat the resulting spiritual calamity. Our form of spiritual detox includes charity, increasing our Torah learning, doing more deeds of kindness, and deep introspection, as well as "putting up a fence" around our own behaviour, each person according to their spiritual level. Fasting seems appropriate, as that is the opposite of eating, although among Chassidim we tend to look askance at any fasting other than the days mandated by Jewish Law. At any rate, this Sunday, the first day of the annual week of "Selichos" (penitential) prayers prior to the High Holidays, was customarily in many Jewish communities a day of fasting; the main objective of the day, however has to be the introspection: what we need to improve upon, to make ourselves "whole" again, and what we are going to learn from this whole mess.

I hope that I have been helpful in shedding some light on this concept, given you an insight into the "repentance" aspect of this crisis. If anything here is truly a tragedy, it is that our capability to trust has died; this individual seemed to be the perfect model of the trustwothy, upright "Ehrlicher Yid" that we look up to and aspire to become, and yet we see what was lurking beneath the surface. We cannot help but to look with a critical eye at everyone, even the most rightuos of our people. I cannot even begin to understand how he justified himself, or how he can live with himself, or how he will go about rectifying this terrible breach in the spiritual armor of the Jewish people, or the shame that his family must be going through. Maimonides, in his "Laws of Repentance" mentions causing the public to sin as one of the things that bars the way of repentance; until the culprit has rectified the wrong and the damage done to the community, he simply has nothing to talk about in the way of repentance. May Hashem (G-d) show his mercy on us all, especially on those who were affected by this, and help them recover from this horrible violation of their trust, spirituality, and their humanity.

Wishing all a "K'siva VaChasima Tova", and may we recapture the holiness and purity of eating at this time of year when we will be doing so much of it. May all the traditional symbolic foods that we eat be truly kosher and imbue us with a desire for Torah and Mitzvos and closeness to Hashem, and usher in for us all a good, sweet year.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,Dee
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 11:33 PM

Many cultures have the concept of expiation of inadvertant sin. For example,some Native American religions require adherants who have been accidentally exposed to a dead person, to enter a sweat lodge, in order to eliminate every trace of contamination from the body.
Simalarly, a public fast for the Monsey community will be a shared cathartic experience.
The operative words here are SHARED and COMMUNITY. Orthodox Jews really do believe that we are all responsible for each other (this is why so much charity and good works circulate in our community.) When there is a real tragedy in the worldwide Jewish community(not only Orthodox, but all Jews) an untimely death, murder,etc., the entire community mourns, even if the victim is not personally known. When someone in the community triumphs- a Jew wins the Nobel prize, or a gold Olympic medal- we feel proud by association.
In this situation, although the "sin" was obiously inadvertant, we can't help feeling that to some small degree, we share guilt by association.
Finally, religions arent based on reason, they are based on faith and to some degree, on a social contract.
Many of us derive great comfort from our traditions and rituals and could care less what you think of them. I personally think those of you who attack Orthodox practices are quite provincial in questioning a belief system that is not your own (but harms no one outside that belief system.) I am not so conceited that I believe every person in the world should live as I do, but obviously some of you believe just that. You think you are sophisticated, but your judgemental observations are the antithesis.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 09:51 PM

Dear Guest, Grose, and OJFP ;-) the first time I was in an on-line chat and someone mentioned the link between assimilation and the holocaust, I was convinced I was talking to a nazi. (This is merely a fact, I take you both at face value). My reaction is two-fold:

On a surface level this falls right into the argument that the anti-semites of that day and this were making, mind you, their accusations against Jews are not simply that Jews were 'assimilating'. They were accusations of degeneracy, criminality, and poor hygiene. From their point of view, any statement that Jews admit responsibility for the Holocaust will immediately lead to their statement "oh, so you accept that Jews are degenerate, criminal, and filthy?"

The perpetrators of the Holocaust killed a huge number of non-assimilationist Jews, those isolated communities such as depicted in the world of Sholom Aleichem (or Fiddler On The Roof). In fact, it pretty much ended that world, and left the assimilated Jews of the United States, Canada, and the ethnically Jewish but culturally non-Jewish population of Russia.

On a more humorous note, I'm reminded of the verse about God's judgement on San Francisco in 1906:

If God had meant to toast the town for being over-frisky-
Then why'd He burn the First Church down
And leave McCullough's whisky?

Similarly Voltaire railed against those religionists who insisted that the Lisbon earthquake was a penalty wrought from Heaven.

Likewise, finding purpose in any great indiscriminate disaster, from nature or from persons, is to my mind a logical crime of the first order. This is what Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson did soon after 911 and makes no more sense in this thread transferred to Jews and The Holocaust.

I find that the argument that Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves by assimilating, to be an argument fitting the thought patterns of National Socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 09:06 PM

*smile*...well, orthodox female Jewish person, I see that you have thought, experienced and struggled to get where you are, and that you do not approach these topics lightly. I am pleased you did not take offense at my attempted 'clarification'.

   Although my approach to religious matters is quite different, I can respect anyone whose beliefs are sincere and based on the best information they can get. In the long run, it is how we treat each other and strive to make our communities safe & happy that is crucial, and I see that you are concerned with doing that. I wish more people could approach things in a similar way.

It is fascinating to read your extended comments on the matter.

Welcome...whether you visit often or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 08:43 PM

It's the way the Rabbis 'argue with themselves' to settle a point of law....demonstrated well in Fiddler on the Roof. 'On the other hand...' You try out all the options until you convince yourself. Called, I think, 'peelpul' or 'pilpul'. HELP me out here, Sol!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 08:38 PM

That is an interesting point, Sorcha. A far cry from my childhood religion that was prone to excommunicating anyone with a different opinion - like the earth revolves around the sun.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 08:35 PM

Still a fascinating thread. Please keep posting Rabbi and Female Person!! In 'my experience' if you have 1 law and 3 Rabbis you will have at least 4 opinions on the interpretation of that Law. Just my experience you see. On the Other hand.... :)

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,An Orthodox Female Person
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 08:11 PM

One more thought: In these weeks before Rosh HaShana & Yom Kippur, I remind all, that in this world there is always "Teshuva". The simple translation is repentance. But the word really means "return". No matter how far one has strayed, He can ALWAYS return to G-d. I do not know what the punishment is for such a grave sin as this this meat saleman is accused of. He caused others to sin. But at least he knows his sin! He is capable of acknowledging his sin before G-d, Having deep, painful remorse, and taking upon himself never to be involved in any such behavior again. Those are the three steps of repentance. Since this sin is also between Man and his fellow Man, he needs to ask forgiveness from all those that he harmed, and make restitution to them, before he can beg forgiveness from G-d. I do not know how in the world he can do this. Perhaps in public written requests in community newspapers, and by giving something of value to the community (personally underwriting enhanced kosher supervision throughout the Monsey consumer market? Somehow paying for the financial toll he caused by necessitating some people to have to discard personal property that could not be koshered?). A person who genuinely begs forgiveness of a person, and is not forgiven, is required to request it twice more, but at different times, and in different ways. If someone has been asked 3 times, in different circumstances for forgiveness, and he refuses to forgive, he is considered an evil person.
May this man find a way to live with himself, correct what he needs to correct, and may his innocent children be spared the shame and ostracism that has resulted by association.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,Orthodox Jewish Female Person
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 07:49 PM

1.I haven't figured out how to label myself!
2. Richard: I just realized that my original post went throug 2 times under Jew and Jewess! LOL
AND, Temptation is not necessarily sinful. I don't have the time, although I really enjoy this. As you may see from the times I post, it's costing me sleep! And I as you see, I'm enjoying this, so I've succumbed to the "temptation" again, depite myself!!
3. Bill: yes, there are 'fact[s]' that demonstrate that what I "believe" is actually true. I am by nature a skeptic, believe it or not. It's been about 15-20 years since I came to my own personal conviction of what is true. Ironically, it was difficult for me, because for unrelated emotional reasons, I do not trust my parents!!! When I referred you and others to other sites on the web, it is because there are modern day thinkers who can demonstrate this stuff scientifically and logically. I am currently practicing, based on that knowledge, and to tell you the truth, it has become a part of me. I don't remember all the specific "proofs", but my conclusions were based in reality. I now function based on what I researched then. It's kind of like when you have to add up prices in the supermarket to make sure you have enough money for your purchases, you don't revisit the concept of whether 2 plus 2 is 4!!!
There are many reasons why a person becomes a skeptic, or tries to find holes to exempt them from responsibility. Often the goal to dismiss the facts, is established before the analysis takes place. This would hardly be considered an unbiased inquiry! One cause for this is personal pain.
4.guestGrose, you are completely on target! I am quite aware of the connection between rampant assimilation, and the Holocaust. Throngs of young Jews discarded traditional Judaism in favor of all the other modern, and enticing "isms" that popped up all over Europe and beyond, in the 19th and early 20th Centuries. One example of these is communism! Additional examples of leaders who warned before the devastation, that the massive intent to "reform" Judaism, to make Jews less "different" would by necessity lead to a major "reaction" by G-d to set us straight were Rabbi Yisroel Meir Kagan, known as "the Chafetz Chaim" and Rabbi Elchanan Wasserman. Denial of this is wrong. Rebetzin Jungreis, and guestGrose's parents are pristine, heroic examples of people who suffered, yet don't hide from the truth. Thousands of survivors, branded for life by the Nazis with numerical tatoos, not only recognized that G-d had not forsaken them, but that He deemed it necessary. They bore the punishment with unmitigated faith that G-d was directly involved. And when it was over, they rebuilt broken lives, and never once considered that there service to G-d is meaningless.
"I chose not to bring this up, not because I am afraid of the truth, and want to tiptoe around it", because I was also taught, that there is no "answer to pain". In other words, it is "Ona'as Devorim" hurting through words, to respond to another's pain with "abstract truths" to quote Bill.
When a person asks "why", and they really mean "It hurts too much to bear", an answer is not what they need at that time. First they need compassion. No matter how deserving I may be of punishment, telling me why, while I am hurting so much, is callous, and may lead me to reject my relationship with G-d. These things are best taught BEFORE there is a calamity.
5.I address this to Russ: It is difficult for me to write this, because it triggers pain. As far as personal beliefs are concerned. I believe, personally, based on logic that I have considered (I scored 100% on my Algebra, Geometry, and Trig regents-not boasting, just giving a frame of reference to my logical capacities), that my personal struggles with intense illness and unremitting pain have a purpose. I continue to try to remember all of the benefits that I have already seen resulting from my situation (empathy, developement of a more personal relationship with G-d), as well as the principles of Judaism that ultimately I will see that this was for good. I will not see all of this in this world. Incidentally, my belief in a world to come, did not come as result of my pain and a desperate need to make sense of it. I am not superhuman. Despite all my knowledge and conviction, in the midst of excruciating circumstances, I certainly cried out "Why?". My Rav (personal Rabbi), who knows a whole lot more "answers" than I do, has never responded in the moment, to those cries with anything other than empathy. When it hurts, you cry. This is not a contradiction. I was crying out to G-d, Who can remove the pain but is not doing so. That is a personal statement.
6.As far as G-d "cluing us in":
The Holocaust did not happen in a day. The Neuremburg Laws, differentiating Jews from other German citizens, was certainly an opportunity to be "clued in". As much as Jews tried to melt into their host society, the Germans kept reminding us that we are different. Alas, many refused to see or hear.
And when the extermination began, no matter how assimilated a Jewish family was, Hitler did not care. His "solution" included those who were 3rd and 4th generation assimilated Jews.
And it is not that G-d only makes this clear to the "Rabbis". It is only that they make a greater effort not to suffer from "cognitive dissonance".

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 06:46 PM

Spaw - I didn't read ridicule in your posts just your usual quirky observations on life in general. Some have been less than kind and I don't understand their need to belittle the religious beliefs of another,
I am an atheist. No ax to grind here.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 06:08 PM

Mary,
       Finkel can never make things right with the Jewish community again. He is effectively out of business with all Rabbinical certifications having been withdrawn. He can not open up shop in any other Jewish community outside of Monsey either. He is effectively banned from the kosher food business for life. Now he has to deal with the civil authorities who will decide his punishment in this world. That will be nothing compared to what his punishment will be in the world to come.

                                           SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,shocked from w coast
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:03 PM

i cannot understand why there is public demand that r breslauer vacate the kosher business. he is either grossly incompetent or just too lazy to do a thorough audit of his client. does he just enter the business to pickup his checks?

we cannot allow this slouch to continue and hold a position which we have to place any confidence in him at all.
are his rabbinical colleagues just covering up for him? are they afraid of the skeletons which they have sitting in their own closets?

i saw that r feuer places the blame on the community. is he blind? does he think he's speaking to morons? wake-up feuer and smell the coffee!! your colleagues in the kosher racket are corrupt and you're covering 4 them.

we need a demonstration in from breslauer's shul to force him 2 resign. afterwards at his home till he's gone. i don't care if he's a nice guy or scholarly type. he's however unfit for the rabbinate and we cannot tolerate such incompetence.

i resent r feuer spinning for breslauer.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 04:42 PM

In my usual pedantic and skeptical manner, I make a brief comment on something buried in "orthodox Jewess'" post

"Those who are uninformed, have sometimes concluded that the Rabbis made up the laws. This is far from the truth, as the laws were taught by G-d to Moses, who transmitted them according to the rules."

This is really the basis of things, and, as such it is well to note that this is what many believe, not a 'fact' that can be demonstrated. Perhaps it really happened that way, but *IF* it did not, then ALL following conclusions and intrpretations are called into question, including those of "Reknowned scholars who had broad knowledge of all aspects of Torah and Talmud". *IF* G-D did NOT give Moses these rules, then the Rabbis DID make them up, no matter how honestly and sincerely. Whenever interpretation by scholars and religious leaders becomes part of the mechanism of transmitting presumed 'truths', subjective attitudes are bound to creep into the details, just as with the china/earthenware issue.

It is important to note that "belief" as to first premises is required in ordered to accept all following conclusions, and though I'm sure that no one is likely to disagree with this, this is why NON-believers find some of these practices strange.

It seems to me the idea of a Supreme Being must include the concept that he/she/it is reasonable and fair, if if so, then it also seems to me that a reasonable & fair Supreme Being would pop in now & then to clarify matters for his fallible creations when they start to muddle his rules and stray from the right path. Just shrugging and rationalizing that He 'guides' the priests, Rabbis and theologians doesn't satisfy some of us.

Yes, this was a deviation from the main thrust of the thread...... I still have no respect for the man who would lie and misrepresent his product to those within his own belief system.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 01:06 PM

Just got back online and I was about to make one comment but first let me make another. It was never my intent to ridicule anyone's belief here. I offer once again an apology to anyone I offended. On the other hand, THIS is one of those occasions where I'd love to have all of these thread participants together in a room and talking about this. The forum format can be both enlightening and frustrating as a means of communication. I didn't see it working well here until we got down to Permanent Guest Russ and his Guest responders.

(Now the other comment I started to make. I was offline and may be again as I screwed up wifi'ing the house. This is because I'm a dumbass, but that's been obvious for years. I don't have it right yet but at least stuff is working.....for awhile anyway. The other comment goes to Guest Russ.)

RUSS....You are once again as always my favorite permanent Guest. I just got done slogging through this thread and another it spawned. I came back here because this discussion is finally where it should be and we owe that to you. I doubted as I was reading this that anyone could bring smoething good and informative here but you did asking the right questions and getting excellent responses from our other Guest(s). A great response only happens when the questions are right. Good job and my thanks to you and the Guest(s) obviously as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 12:43 PM

Sol,
This is a disgraceful and horrible event. I am sorry that you and your congregation have to endure first the crime and then the ridicule.
I am curious as to how your community will deal with Moshe Finkel. Presumably the law will have its day but how does he make things right with the Jewish community?
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,grose
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 11:43 AM

Russ -
To quote a famous woman The woman was someone named Rebbetzin Kramer who also lived through the Holocaust. When she was older, a searching soul, someone who had traveled to India and all over trying to find the meaning of life, questioned her about that time in her life. The questioner said, (again not an exact quote) "that place [the concentration camp] must have been the worst place." To which the Rebbetzin replied, "not the worst, because I still had the opportunity to do the right things there." So, Russ, thank you for the apology, but to take that holy woman's words a bit further, completely unpleasant would be an exchange of words where no one grows. But your words raised thoughts and thoughts can lead to growth, hence no apology needed, rather a thank you from my end for causing me to take time today to stop and reflect...and hopefully grow.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 11:32 AM

GUEST, grose,

Thank you for your response.

I apologize for any unplesantness my questions might have caused.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,grose
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 10:50 AM

the guest who posted on the "Megalgilim" concept of bad things happening when you aren't careful. I see the next few posts on the Holocaust. I don't know why folks tiptoe around it. Yes, it happened because we deserved it. I can say that with easy heart because both of my parents are Holocaust survivors and taught me to say that. Rebbetzin Jungreis, a survivor of Bergen Belsen and founder of Hineni Organization in Manhattan says the same things. So did many rabbis. ANY catastrophe has a cause. To blind ourselves to that makes for a horrible thing - the George Santayana one of "those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it".    The Jews did suffer horrific tragedies during the destruction of the Temple and banishment from Israel during the Roman reign, and we are given reasons for why G-d allowed such devastation to happen. No less should be done for the Holocaust era, otherwise the punishment is useless. That doesn't mean that the Nazis are absolved. There are many anti-semites who would love to kill us all. However, there are times where G-d allows them to succeed because of our faults. They, however, hated baselessly and are held accountable for being murderers.   Rebbetzin Jungreis pointed out one scary thing, which no one wants to readily admit. There is a clear balance in history between assimilation of the Jewish people and anti-semitism. As assimilation (the move away from tradition and heritage) increases so does the rate of anti-semitism in the world. Doubt it? Learn history. Use the Spanish Inquisition. The Holocaust. The Greek oppression. The Purim story. Not only that, there were predictions before the Holocaust that it would happen, from Rabbis such as the Mesech Chochma (who wrote his prediction about 200 years before the event) and the path of the Holocaust followed the trail of assimilation that had wreaked havoc on the Jewish community. Anti-Semitism, as much as it has hurt me by killing large numbers of my family, is a gift of G-d that doesn't allow the Jewish people to kill themselves out in their own suicide of trying to lose their identity.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 09:08 AM

By the way, I have subjected my Jewish friends, orthodox and not, to the same sorts of questions I have asked here.