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BS: Should you alienate Fascists?

Fred McCormick 22 Mar 10 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 22 Mar 10 - 06:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Mar 10 - 05:49 AM
theleveller 22 Mar 10 - 05:48 AM
Fred McCormick 22 Mar 10 - 05:20 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 22 Mar 10 - 04:40 AM
theleveller 22 Mar 10 - 04:31 AM
akenaton 21 Mar 10 - 04:38 PM
Fred McCormick 21 Mar 10 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,Mark Stevens 21 Mar 10 - 03:29 PM
Fred McCormick 21 Mar 10 - 11:33 AM
theleveller 21 Mar 10 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,Mark Stevens 21 Mar 10 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,Henry 20 Mar 10 - 07:25 PM
Richard Bridge 20 Mar 10 - 05:57 PM
Richard Bridge 20 Mar 10 - 05:48 PM
akenaton 20 Mar 10 - 04:51 PM
Fred McCormick 20 Mar 10 - 04:05 PM
Richard Bridge 20 Mar 10 - 03:29 PM
Stringsinger 20 Mar 10 - 03:24 PM
Richard Bridge 20 Mar 10 - 03:08 PM
Richard Bridge 20 Mar 10 - 03:03 PM
akenaton 20 Mar 10 - 01:59 PM
Fred McCormick 20 Mar 10 - 01:38 PM
Fred McCormick 19 Mar 10 - 12:37 PM
Jeri 19 Mar 10 - 09:45 AM
akenaton 19 Mar 10 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 19 Mar 10 - 07:57 AM
Amergin 19 Mar 10 - 07:56 AM
Fred McCormick 19 Mar 10 - 07:54 AM
Fred McCormick 19 Mar 10 - 07:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Mar 10 - 07:05 AM
Richard Bridge 18 Mar 10 - 06:03 PM
Little Hawk 18 Mar 10 - 05:49 PM
Fred McCormick 18 Mar 10 - 03:44 PM
Fred McCormick 18 Mar 10 - 01:12 PM
akenaton 18 Mar 10 - 11:44 AM
Fred McCormick 18 Mar 10 - 11:31 AM
theleveller 18 Mar 10 - 09:52 AM
theleveller 18 Mar 10 - 05:50 AM
Fred McCormick 18 Mar 10 - 04:20 AM
GUEST,Bardan 17 Mar 10 - 02:29 PM
Little Hawk 17 Mar 10 - 01:10 PM
Fred McCormick 17 Mar 10 - 11:38 AM
theleveller 17 Mar 10 - 11:30 AM
Fred McCormick 17 Mar 10 - 11:28 AM
theleveller 17 Mar 10 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,Dai 17 Mar 10 - 10:40 AM
Fred McCormick 17 Mar 10 - 10:16 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 16 Mar 10 - 11:32 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 11:28 AM

Steamin' Willie "They have little to do. Let sleeping dogs sleep!"

Oh aye? I've just received this from Hope Not Hate.

"Over the past few days the media have been reporting that Griffin and his fellow BNP MEP Andrew Brons have been using vast amounts of taxpayer money to prop up their extremist party. Our research team have just sent me a dossier listing the benefactors of this action - and 10 of them are standing to be MPs in the coming election, including their election co-ordinator.

"We are paying for the BNP's election campaign.

"This appears to be a clear misuse of public funds - and it's up to us to demand that the EU take the strongest possible action to stop it. We've set up a simple tool that lets you write to four EU anti-corruption bodies at once.

http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/fraud

"According to our source inside the BNP, 14 party members are being paid with EU money. Several of them don't even live in areas where the BNP has MEPs. And most of them are among the party's lead candidates in the forthcoming General Election.

"We can't let this continue. If enough of us come together we can demand that the EU stamp down on the BNP's dodgy activities - and stop each of us funding this nasty, extremist party. Our simple tool lets you write to the EU Anti-Fraud Office, the EU Ombudsman, the President of the EU Parliament, and the Secretary General.

"Every taxpayer is currently funding the BNP's election campaign. With your help we can stop this right here and right now."

Sounds pretty typical of fascist behaviour to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 06:48 AM

They have little to do. Let sleeping dogs sleep !


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 05:49 AM

They got me too! Funny though because my real name is unusual and I know with absolute certainty that there is only one of me:-) They also seemed to couple my name with a picture of a certain Greek gentleman who also corresponds on here. Very flattering for me, as if I had 1/4 of Georges talent I would be happy! They put the mythical English/Polish/Russian/Greek amalgamation as living in the Midlands somehere. Not very bright are they? It was reported to Facebook and removed straight away.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 05:48 AM

"Leave them to it. You are stirring the pot and others end up getting hurt. "

If we turn a blind eye people get hurt - all those groups that these thugs are opposed to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 05:20 AM

akenaton "Fred.....why are you so surprised that people do nasty things to your facebook profile? A bit of liberal tolerance would help."

Did I ever express surprise at the lunatic antics of a bunch of nutters on the far right? In any event I don't have a facebook profile. As for the notion of liberal tolerance, I suggest you read a few histories of the third reich. Try reading about the liberal tolerance which Hitler and his cronies showed towards the Jews, gays, liberals, trade unionists, socialists, gypsies, the congenitally infirm and all the other outcasts of the master race.

I believe in tolerance of other people's cultural proclivities, but I am utterly intolerant of those who are themselves intolerant of other sections of humanity, whether on the grounds of race, religion, sexuality or for any other reason.

One world. One people. One race - the human race.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 04:40 AM

Leveller, these type of threads cause problems. I wish to God you and the few others involved would just drop it. Leave them to it. You are stirring the pot and others end up getting hurt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 04:31 AM

Why should we tolerate a bunch of intolerant, illiberal facist thugs? Your logic escapes me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 04:38 PM

Fred.....why are you so surprised that people do nasty things to your facebook profile?
A bit of liberal tolerance would help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 03:47 PM

I haven't. Your so called contribution is there for all to see on Excalibur, along with a lot of other gut wrenching tripe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Mark Stevens
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 03:29 PM

Ah, you've been listening to my folk musical contribution to British Nationalism !

Good on you, matey ! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 11:33 AM

Is this the same Mark Stevens who played Speed The Plough on the BNP's CD of the Red White & Blue Festival 2007? I reckon it must be because here's his interests as shown on the BNP 2007 membership list.

"BSc (Hons) Media Production. HND Moving Image/Photography. Semi-professional multi musician (traditional/British folk). Pagan. Classic motorcycle enthusiast. Huntsman"


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 10:12 AM

"I wonder who are the real Fascists ?"

I think probably just need to look in the mirror :0


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Mark Stevens
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 09:55 AM

re: yesterday's Bolton News and Waayman(sic) Bennett's arrest.

That made my day :) I wonder who are the real Fascists ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 07:25 PM

Socialist Worker has carried an ongoing 'feed' about the anti fascist opposition to the attempt by the fascist EDL to invade Bolton.
Well done to the thousands of anti fascists who turned out to oppose the violent beer sodden racist thugs in their face scarves and balaclavas.
The lesson of history warns us that we have to confront these racists or they just keep coming back for more.
Moreover, there are serious questions about the role of the police who sought to intimidate the anti fascists while chatting to some EDL thugs as if they were old chums.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 05:57 PM

I gather Weymann-Bennet has been released without charge. Failed BNP (oops, EDL) fit-up then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 05:48 PM

"ridding ourselves of the one overriding evil, Capitalism.....both State and Private". Bravo.

Your bigotries ake detract from the task of overcoming that overriding evil.

Your faith that there is no prospect of a return to italo-german state fascism is woolly minded in the extreme.   Are you not watching what the "wash-up procedure" is doing to internet access? Even the BBC have caught on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 04:51 PM

"The lynch mob mentality belongs on the fascist side, along with apartheid, Auschwitz and the jackboot and the gas chamber."

With the greatest of respect Fred you are talking of another time, another age.....We have new threats to fight against, many of them hidden in our own ideology.

Our society is broken....and we assisted in the destruction, many of the issues which seemed so clear and so right have been proved more destructive than the ones they replaced

We on the left (and I still count myself amongst that number) have been guilty of hypocrisy, wooly mindedness and sheer stupidity, we have allowed ourselves to be sidetracked by all manner of diversions instead of concentrating on ridding ourselves of the one overiding evil, Capitalism.....both State and Private.

Given the information technology available today, there is no chance of a return to German style fascism, or German militarism.
There is however, the likelihood of ideological "fascism" which is more likely to come from the ranks of the new left, than the right.
"Orwellian" in nature and more destructive to the long term freedom and happiness of humanity than anything we have yet seen.

If there are some real Fascists and Racists among the BNP then they are deranged and very easy to alienate from society....but I'm sure the majority who vote BNP do so in protest at the damage being inflicted on our country and our people by unscrupulous governments made up from political Parties which are almost indistinguishable from one another and by labeling them Fascist or racist, we are being intellectually lazy and creating more of the divisions in society which enable this failed system to continue....

Lets develop a sense of perspective.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 04:05 PM

Akenton. "Exactly so Fred, the lynch mob mentality never works!" The lynch mob mentality belongs on the fascist side, along with apartheid, Auschwitz and the jackboot and the gas chamber. The vast majority of anti-fascists realise that. Unfortunately, a tiny minority don't. They think they are aiding the socialist revolution. They're not.

Richard. I'll know more when I speak to some of the people who went to Bolton. I do know though that some of the demonstrators went with the express aim of causing trouble. If they played into the hands of reactionary police, as well as the EDL, that is their own stupid fault.

What makes it worse for me is that I've just spent two days demonstrating against the BNP. We protested peacefully. The BNP did not. In fact they proved themselves to be an unruly paranoid rabble. We got a lot of support from passers by, where the BNP just made fools of themselves. That is how you fight fascism, not by turning up at anti-fascist rallies armed with too much testosterone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 03:29 PM

Getting accurate facts could be tricky, but some sources are saying that the UAF were kettled for over an hour before the EDL arrived in force, then the EDL were largely allowed to run riot by the police, until they started throwing things at the police. Allegedly the UAF and RAR organisers were seen to be peacefully demonstrating before taken by police snatch squads, and before there were any major events of disorder.

There seems to be enough to make one ask whether the police were acting objectively, or in a partisan fashion.

There is a rumour but I know no more that MacDonalds was bombed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 03:24 PM

Conrad, I hear ya'. Any rant gets old even if you agree with it. All we can do as human beings is to offer factual information and hope someone understands.

Pete Seeger had a way of introducing his ideas into a concert that were not offensive
to his audience. I've seen him charm a Young Republican audience. A lot of what is
artistic is the way you approach your point-of-view as a performer. Rants just turn
people off. The late Lee Hays of the Weavers must be credited for offering a political viewpoint through humor in the tradition of Will Rogers and carried on by Garrison Keillor.

In a dialogue with fascists, it may be like discussing with certain religious people whose
minds have been made up and will not operate on a reasoned level. I think of fascism
as a kind of religion as was Stalinism or Naziism.

I think one can alienate the principles of fascism quite easily by pointing out that they embody a kind of political cultish devotion by those who think they will benefit from it in some way. The eyes-glazed-over look can be diffused by moving away from their agenda in the conversation toward something that is mutually agreeable.

Confrontation in an attempt to persuade those with a fascist ideology only hardens their position. The only thing anyone can do is offer reasoned facts and observations.

It takes a great deal of humility to attempt to find common ground with those with which we disagree.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 03:08 PM

This too, fairly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 03:03 PM

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1201095_dozens_arrested_in_bolton_edl_rally_protest

This report makes it sound sort of 50-50 ish


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 01:59 PM

Exactly so Fred, the lynch mob mentality never works!


Perhaps the folks here need to take a good look at what is really happening in this country....stop creating bogeymen and start thinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 01:38 PM

I've just heard the news from Bolton. I didn't go because I had a strong suspicion that it would end in violence, and I am totally gutted at the fact that my fears have been confirmed.

Perhaps the picture will change as it becomes clearer, but of the 55 arrests, the overwhelming majority appear to have come from the anti-fascist side, and seem to have involved people who went there looking for violence.

The EDL, the BNP and every other far right organisation will be laughing themselves silly over this. It is exactly what they wanted. The football hooligans, knuckleheads and skinheads of the EDL succeeded in turning Bolton into a battleground virtually without lifting a finger. They have gained the maximum publicity for their cause and they have come out of it looking as though they are the victims.

The EDL website has gone out of its way to urge disciplined and ostensibly peaceful behaviour from its supporters. They have insisted that there were to be no unauthorised megaphones; no thugs getting tanked up to the ears beforehand; no racism; and no "Allah" songs. That is because they knew the knuckleheads on our side would do their dirty work for them.

The bastards. The stupid bloody bastards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 12:37 PM

Oh God, he's still at it. In the last couple of hours I've received emails from a firm making bras for big women, a "confidential" dating agency and a local council responding to my "claim" for housing benefit.

Any minute now his brain will burst from the exertion. Brain?, what brain? Thank God for the SAM bin. That's where he belongs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 09:45 AM

The REAL Dai on the BNP

The BNP is an organisation made up of race haters,hardcore nazis,anti semites and street thugs. Its original leader,Griffin's predecessor John Tyndall, can be seen on "google images" posing in full nazi regalia in front of a large swastika and a framed photograph of Adolph Hitler.
If these characters who are filled with violence and race hatred ever came to power we would see a grotesque rerun of Hitler's Germany with trade unionists, ethnic communities ,leftists, Jews, moslems,the diabled,gays and working class organisations all at risk.
We really can't allow this bunch of thugs to get even more organised.The BNP is being joined at its race hate fest by a grisly collection of fascist and racist thugs from across Europe....I hope they get the welcome they so richly deserve.
Dai
"GUEST,Sam Hudson" is a stolen identity. "GUEST,Dai" is a stolen identity. Your best bet, IMO, is to not trust any pro-fascism, pro-bnp guest and check what they've said in the past if you're inclined. If all you want to do is argue with a troll, have fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 08:12 AM

As far as I remember, this all started when our democratic fighters started making nasty comments about a young lady BNP member who sang in a middle bar somewhere or other.

Our democrats obviously didn't want to play with her.....Boo Hoooo!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:57 AM

Hi Fred....Lucky you...I haven't been targeted at all... Bugger. Obviously not worthy.
What do I have to do???


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:56 AM

Is it me or does Griffin resemble a bloated slug in a suit? Maybe should pour some salt on him....


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:54 AM

And Digg, and Live Journal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:49 AM

Guess what folks. This annulus has now signed me up to Kelkoo. Whatever next I wonder? My God, the suspense is killing me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:05 AM

""The UK is still a democracy, fight their campaign yes, but respect the voice of the people after the election. That is what sets us apart from fascism.""

In the event your nightmare scenario became fact Dai, we would have Fascism"", and there would be NO "voice of the people", only the voice of Fuhrer Griffin.

As the Germans found out to their cost, with the destruction of their nation, you can't give these people one single solitary inch.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 06:03 PM

I assume that "accunt" was not a typo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 05:49 PM

You could hire some thugs to beat him up....


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 03:44 PM

Hey folks, it gets better and better. Having found that sam/helenbutcheretc has set up Bebo and Facebook accounts in my name, I've just had an email from Titter, sorry, Twitter asking me to activate my account! I don't have a Twitter accunt.

Are there no lengths to which this berk will not go in order to secure the glorious historic destiny of the blue haired, blonde eyed Aryan master bates? Sorry, master race.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 01:12 PM

I know. Amazing ennit. Up our way the BNP have become so notorious for bad behaviour that we've now got the police on our our side. And excuse me while I laugh, but this demonstration and counter demonstration happened outside the local crown court. Yep, you guessed it. One of their number was being arraigned on a charge of serious assault, for which he will hopefully receive a substantial prison sentence, and his mates outside couldn't even set an example by behaving like sensible adults.

As one of the officers said to me "If you took the collective IQ of that lot, it probably wouldn't get into double figures".


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 11:44 AM

What goes around, comes around!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 11:31 AM

I've just come back from a counter-demonstration against the BNP. The BNP demonstrators were shouting murderers at us. Why so? Well, they've got it into their tiny little minds that anyone supporting anti-fascism must be either a Labour Party member or a supporter of Labour policies. Therefore, everyone on the counter-demo must be personally responsible for all the dead troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

With logic like that, who needs a lunatic asylum full of inmates?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 09:52 AM

It means I need to cut my fingernails.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 05:50 AM

And these are the people to whom it's suggested we should exctend the normal democratic rights? Maybe when they stop abusing ours!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:20 AM

Guess what folks. Sam the spam has struck again. Not only has he set up a Bebo page in my name, I'm now on Flickr. Yup, you guessed it. Fred McCormick the loyal BNP member.

What a wucking fanker. Sam that is, not me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 02:29 PM

Just to throw my opinion in- I try not to actively alienate anyone. At the same time, If I hear something I don't agree with I'm going to object to it, argue against it or ridicule it most of the time and if people feel alienated because of my honest responses tough luck. Also if someone says something that actually makes me want to punch them I'll probably avoid them so as to make sure that doesn't actually happen.

Also you can value art without valuing the artist but that might end with you paying royalties to a complete wanker who'll spend them on bigoted electoral campaigns etc... And I still wouldn't want social interaction with someone who makes me want to punch them every few minutes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 01:10 PM

"Keep them dogies rollin', Rawhide...."


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 11:38 AM

That is exactly the plan; not to prevent the BNP or any other far right group from exercising their democratic rights, but to make sure that Mr and Mrs Joe Public are fully aware that they are nazis in respectable suits, and what voting in a BNP government would mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 11:30 AM

It's an interesting dilemma, isn't it - extending the privileges of free speech and democracy to people who actively oppose free speech and democracy? Fortunately, I have not the least worry that, once they realise how loathesome these turds are, the people will send them packing with their tails between their legs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 11:28 AM

Dai. I wouldn't try and stop anyone from voting for anyone they wanted. But if the BNP have the right to put up for election, then I have the right to denounce them and organise against them.

An awful lot of people voted Hitler into power. Does that mean that the Jews, gypsies, trade unionists, socialists, liberals and gays who died in the gas chambers should have respected democracy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:59 AM

But some of us will be actively campaigning against them so people realise just what their repulsive policies are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Dai
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:40 AM

Fred, If people want to vote for them they hold that right. If people elect them you and I have to accept that. Much as we may dislike it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:16 AM

I've just heard, via Hope Not Hate, that the BNP are fielding over 400 candidates in the general election. The message didn't say, but I presume that is just parliamentary candidates, and doesn't include those standing for local goverment office.

I was expecting them to mount a sizeable turnout, but certainly not one as big as this.

Most of them will be nothing more than paper candidates, with no hope of getting anything more than a handful of votes each. Even so, the BNP are clearly planning to make as much hay out of the election as they possibly can. Anti-fascists on this thread can obviously plan for a busy time ahead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 11:32 PM

Ok I just suggest it then. Let them decide


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