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BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:12 PM ""If you keep your folk against fascism rally's out of general music oriented venues or music oriented forums like this one then fine. Feel free to oppose fascism whenever you wish in a political setting. I do not and will not ever apologize for fascists however I will suggest, not tell, folk musicians that they should always tolerate music and those with differing political beliefs."" You just don't get it! You have no authority to tell anyone on this forum what he/she should or should not do."". If you don't like what you see here go somewhere which fits in with your agenda. Maybe join the BNP?....They'd love your ideas. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don Firth Date: 16 Mar 10 - 06:26 PM Conrad, I have no problem enjoying songs when I don't understand the words. One of my early musical interests (as a teen-ager, and continuing on to today) is opera—granted, not everyone's cup of tea. Most operas are in Italian, French, or German, sometimes Russian or Czech, languages which I do not speak myself. But what makes opera enjoyable for many people (McCaw Hall, the Seattle Opera House, is filled to capacity, a bit short of 3,000 seats at almost every performance—as is the case with most opera houses around the country) is the combination of drama and music. Opera-goers tend to bone up ahead of time to find out what the story is; the gist of what's going on, if not word-by-word. Without knowing this, opera becomes a confusing hodge-podge consisting of a bunch of people in costumes, generally singing very loudly in a foreign language. But knowing what's going on makes watching and listening to an opera production a combination of fine music and high drama, a whole different thing. Season tickets (five operas) run from around $150 to $3,000. And it's not just a rich person's entertainment. There are a lot of students and working stiffs who are sufficiently avid opera fans that they prefer shucking out the money and sitting in the upper balcony (nosebleed altitude) to not going at all. What justifies the ticket prices (which some people might consider grossly overpriced) is that you are getting to hear some of the finest singers in the world, along with large choruses sometimes, fairly lavish stage sets and costumes, sometimes with a ballet troupe (dance sequences in Aida, La Traviata, Faust, et al) as well—with the whole shebang being accompanied by a full symphony orchestra. An opera is very expensive to stage! Many opera buffs are sufficiently avid that a few weeks prior to going to a live performance, they'll try to get a DVD of the opera with sub-titles, or a CD set complete with libretto ("little book," which contains the text of the opera, two columns on each page, original language on the left, English translation on the right), so they can listen to the opera ahead of time and learn what it's about before going to the live performance. In fact, when a particular opera is coming up and you want to bone up on it, you'd better be quick, or you'll find that all of the library's copies are already checked out. Lately, Seattle Opera, and a number of other opera companies, are using "supra-titles": projecting the words in English, like subtitles in a movie, but on a strip of screen on the proscenium above the stage. So, sure, one can enjoy sung music as pure music even if one doesn't understand the words, but that's a bit like having sex with a woman you don't like. A limited experience, maybe physically satisfying, but it leaves one feeling sort of emotionally "blah." Empty calories. Grasp the nettle! Listen to the words and think about them, even if you don't like what they say. It's a chance to reassess your beliefs, which should always be an ongoing process. If it's a concert by a performer who sings mostly politically oriented songs and you don't like his or her politics, and you know you aren't going to enjoy it, there is a simple expedient: don't go to it. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Fred McCormick Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:57 AM Peasant. Toggle off eh? There's an idea. How soon do you think you could manage it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:45 AM Thanks Fred. Horst Wessel indeed! (Couldn't remember the name). Plus all Folk music from Germany pre 1939. Hi-jacked by Goebbels and his cronies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:39 AM Yes one is free to meditate upon the meaning of the lyrics- an important dimension but if you find the message ofensive it is possible to toggle off the meaning and still have many other dimensions of the song left to enjoy. Gaelic songs- very popular over the past several decades in places where very few if any understand the lyrics. That is because the songs are still carried along by the musical sounds of the words, rhymes rythms and tunes. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Fred McCormick Date: 16 Mar 10 - 06:41 AM Ralphie. "Please name one right wing pro fascist song that you know?" There's the Horst Wessel song for one. Also, there are various heaps of chauvinistic shite being peddled around the British far right. EG., Send the Buggars Back. For that matter, the great white fat git himself has recorded a CD of his own compositions. It's on the BNP's own Great White Records label. I'm not suggesting that any of these would be fit to use as toilet paper, but the problem is that the left has never been very prolific in terms of creating anti-fascist songs. That is something we need to change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: theleveller Date: 16 Mar 10 - 04:32 AM "In fact, to all intents and purposes they ARE you and the guy next door! " What a complete load of bollocks! For a start, neither I nor the "guy next door" have criminal convictions for racism and violence, not do I have a beer belly or wear a business suit - and I'm certainly not sad, deluded or a bastard. If the hat fits, Ake, wear it, but do not presume to speak for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 16 Mar 10 - 04:07 AM Oh and Conrad....Please name one right wing pro fascist song that you know? I can't think of one myself. Please enlighten us... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 16 Mar 10 - 03:31 AM Peasant/Butcher. If I were you, (and very glad that I'm not BTW), I'd stop pissing in the wind. Nobody here is fooled by your arguements. Not really sure why you're bothering. Hoping to recruit people to your nasty little club? Should we alienate Fasciste? Too damn right we should. And we'll start with you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don Firth Date: 16 Mar 10 - 02:04 AM "The way to react to a political song is by thinking about the melody and the lyrics the art of construction, rhymes the artistry of the creation of the piece as a song." However, I can't say that I agree with that. The idea of a ballad, for example, is to tell a story, albeit in song. And a lyrical non-ballad usually implies a story, or at least a situation. And in that same way that one listens and reacts intellectually and emotionally to these songs, I think one should listen to the message of the political song and think about that as well, even though you may not agree with the ideology. I don't see how you can divorce the story a song tells, be it a ballad, a lyric, or a protest song, and narrow your focus only to the aesthetic values of the song. What a song says is an integral part of the song. In a sense, it's the very soul of the song. If you keep an open mind, you might learn something you didn't know before, or see something in a different way. For example, one might be all in favor of developing as many domestic energy resources as possible to cut down on importing Middle Eastern oil, but hearing a song like Jean Ritchie's Blackwaters might make one rethink such matters as supporting coal companies who practice strip-mining, and the incredible mess this leaves behind. Better to keep looking than precipitate this kind of environmental disaster. Or hearing a song like Eric Bogle's The Green Fields of France and the poignant message it contains might lead one to wonder if it is wise to continue supporting politicians whose answer to many foreign policy questions is to send in the troops. You never can tell. In listening to a protest song, you might learn something. And after thinking about it for awhile, and perhaps looking into the matter yourself, you may even change your views. It gives you an opportunity to rethink some issue. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:41 PM Sounds good to me Don. Seeger would at times very successfully play the songs of both sides of an issue with the historical framework. When we primarily treat songs as art more people can come together to listen to them. The way to react to a political song is by thinking about the melody and the lyrics the art of construction, rhymes the artistry of the creation of the piece as a song. Generally the ones that have survived have done so because of these qualities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don Firth Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:10 PM Okay, Conrad, then on that, we are in agreement. I don't go to a folk concert, or any kind of concert, to hear a political harrang. But if the singer feels impelled to include a few songs of a political nature, that doesn't bother me. Pete Seeger was thought to be a very political singer, but I've heard him, live, in a number of concerts, and he rarely included more that two or three political songs, and even then, he put them into historical context. And--there are political songs and political songs. Anti-war songs, such as Mrs. McGrath, Johnnie, I Hardly Knew Ye, and The Band Played Waltzing Matilda anger some people of the more conservative persuasion these days, but as far as I'm concerned, that's as it should be. Is Lilli Berlero a political song? Or The Vicar of Bray? Or The D-Day Dodgers? They certainly were at one time. I'm not going to censor the songs I sing because they might offend someone (short of simple good taste, i.e., not singing bawdy songs in front of young children, for example). And I don't think anyone else should either. If I don't like the songs someone sings, I won't go to listen to them. And they have the same right if they don't like the songs I sing. There are enough differences in political beliefs around that I don't believe either of us will suffer greatly from lack of audiences. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 15 Mar 10 - 06:14 PM Mr. Firth For the nth time and they ask me why I repeat myself$$$#$#$%%%$^%$#$ I AM ABSOLUTELY OPPOSED TO BANNING POLITICAL FOLK SONGS ABSOLUTELY You should be able to sing any song no matter what it is about, however, when a significant part of the time on stage is spent not explaining the song but preaching the political message then you have transformed a perfectly good concert into a politically rally. Now that is wrong. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Mar 10 - 06:07 PM The Cold War between myself and the Dachshund continues. "Filthy fascist violence-monger!" I think, as I watch him chewing aggressively on his rawhide chewbone. "Stinking leftist appeasement freak!" he growls, as he watches me reading my book on Buddhist philosophy. It's getting tense around here, I tell you. Tense. We are both becoming quite alienated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don Firth Date: 15 Mar 10 - 05:10 PM Me too, Ake. I think if we were face to face over a couple of brews, we could more easily express our viewpoints and, if not eventually come to agree, at least not wind up flinging insults at each other. #### *#1 PEASANT*, many political songs spring from the folk (indeed, that's the source of most of them, for obvious reasons), and to try to ban them from folk venues would be about like trying to ban a whole category of songs, such as sea chanteys because someone prone to sea-sickness might feel queasy at the very thought of going to sea, or songs of unrequited love because someone might have had a painful romantic experience and doesn't want to be reminded of it. I rarely sing politically oriented songs myself, but there are a couple I do sing because they make a point that should be heard, and if there are certain people who are offended by them, I don't care if they are offended or not. If my singing of them makes them uncomfortable, then good! They should be made to feel uncomfortable. It has not reduced my audiences or my income from singing to any noticeable extent. If anything, it has increased both. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:37 PM Using music for a political cause is traditional However, it does not always serve the music or tradition to continually divide the potential audience and send one par away. One of the reasons spend time with folk music is that they would rather not go to political rallys and escape the media politics once in a while. Have you political rally play whatever music you want but dont use the term folk music to describe what is essentially a political event. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: akenaton Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:26 PM Don F...I don't think you are a bully. I think you are a decent reasonable guy who sometimes gets a little overwrought...like most of us! I think you are 100% sincere in what you post, and I'm sorry we have "fallen out". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don Firth Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:08 PM Just a siggestion, Ake, to avoid confusion. If you would distinguish between "Don T." and "Don F.," it would help to know who you are talking to or about. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: akenaton Date: 15 Mar 10 - 03:43 PM "You re-formed it to fight against fascism, or at least the others in your movements who had a little sense did" You're not often right Don, but I'm afraid you're wrong again. The folkies of the revival in the UK, co opted the music to fight Capitalism and all the evils that it spawns.....the exploitation of workers, blacks,Vietnamese citizens, and people like you, who were and still are, paid up members of a stinking manipulative and morally corrosive economic and social system. Now that was something worth fighting for.......Folk against Fascism...dont make me fuckin' laugh, Jeri was right , just massaging your egos....why dont you find a real cause, do you think any real fascists give two fucks for what a couple of hundred geriatric folkies think? Try to drag yourself back into the real world, the Fascists that Woody wanted to kill were a danger....and supported by the UK and US while they were keeping the Commies in check....they were easy to define, they wore the uniform and the badges, they goose stepped and sported Charlie Chaplin moustaches and were virulently anti -Communist Your "Fascists" wear business suits with beer bellies hanging over the waistband just like you and the guy next door. They have opinions, bigotries, prejudices, just like you and the guy next door. Sad deluded bastards, just like you and the guy next door In fact, to all intents and purposes they ARE you and the guy next door! You and your ilk are no revolutionaries like Woody or his comrades, you're not even freedom fighters...you're just sad old reactionaries.....Don T Quixote....tilting at windmills!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: akenaton Date: 15 Mar 10 - 02:36 PM Don....I dont think you are a bully. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 15 Mar 10 - 02:28 PM Have fun with your political rally s. I would need a plane ticket anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don Firth Date: 15 Mar 10 - 01:53 PM Inadvertently hit "Submit Message" prematurely, before completing HTML code. It should read Just came back aboard.Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Ruth Archer Date: 15 Mar 10 - 01:47 PM Conrad: thanks all the same, but FAF needs neither your approval nor your permission to programme gigs in mainstream music venues and we will continue to do so. People running their own FAF gigs, and bands, will also hold those gigs wherever they choose. You are, of course, free to stay away. But as we've nearly sold out the Southbank Centre's Queen Elizabeth Hall in less than a week, it looks like there are a fair few people who are happy to share our message. Goodbye. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don Firth Date: 15 Mar 10 - 01:46 PM Just came back aboard. Amazing!! You, Ake, are the one who wants to restrict the freedom of a specific class of people and generally put them in the same catagory as lepers, and I'm Did I say "amazing?" Yes, I believe I did. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 15 Mar 10 - 12:08 PM If you keep your folk against fascism rally's out of general music oriented venues or music oriented forums like this one then fine. Feel free to oppose fascism whenever you wish in a political setting. I do not and will not ever apologize for fascists however I will suggest, not tell, folk musicians that they should always tolerate music and those with differing political beliefs. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 15 Mar 10 - 11:59 AM Woodie Guthrie had a somewhat similar agenda, and it didn't hurt folk music one bit. Allowing it to be associated with the intention to get rid of Black, Asian, Roma, and Disabled citizens of this country (and in due course, Jews, jazz musicians, and even folkies) will IMHO, destroy it. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 15 Mar 10 - 11:51 AM ""I object to coming to events and hearing political manefestos before I can hear the music for which I came. Yes songs are historically sung at political rallies. I do not attend political rallies."" You have no idea how much pleasure it gives me to hear that. Now I can be sure I will find at least one less BNP apologist at the next FAF gig. It has obviously passed right over your head Conrad, but the purpose of the FAF is to oppose fascists, and racists, when they try to use folk music to further their vile agenda. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 15 Mar 10 - 11:44 AM ""Jesus Ruth.....We, the Socialists and Commies, were only too happy to Co-opt and re-form folk music in our image. Why the double standards?.....These double standards are much more dangerous than Mr Griffin, or any other politician."" You re-formed it to fight against fascism, or at least the others in your movements who had a little sense did. You did not use it as a stepping stone to get rid of black, or Asian, or Disabled people. THAT, for the umpteenth time IS THE DIFFERENCE. If you can't understand, get out of the bloody way, and et those who can get on with it. You are a pain in the arse most of the time Ake, but never more so than when espousing a completely untenable argument. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Jeri Date: 15 Mar 10 - 11:42 AM I don't think the question is about whether you should alienate fascists so much is whether you can, and maybe a bit about how it might be done. Feel free to play Savior on your own time. If it's audience time, this audience member is likely going to think it's a falsely pious bit of public ego self-massaging. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Ruth Archer Date: 15 Mar 10 - 11:29 AM Bands, promoters and venues choose to brand their events Folk Against Fascism gigs, or not. You are free to attend those gigs, or not. If you do not like an artist injecting politics into their music or into the patter that goes between songs, don't go to see that artist; don't buy their records. But it isn't up to you to tell them not to do it, anymore than it is up to an artist or promoter to tell you that you must attend their gigs or buy their records. Simples. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: theleveller Date: 15 Mar 10 - 10:41 AM Nope. It's you who have it wrong. I'll sing what I damn well like at whatever venue I choose and introduce it in whatever way I feel is appropriate. You're unlikely to be there but, if you are, tough - political comment is an integral part of folk music and if you don't like it, pop out for a beer. That's what I'd do if someone introduced a fascist theme - then I'd tell the person afterwards exactly what I thought of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 15 Mar 10 - 10:06 AM Fine You can have a Folk Against Fascism political rally and play music but don't turn a folk venue, limited as they are into a political platform. It is just not appropriate. You may sing political songs as can anyone If you feel this restrictive remember I would also deny the Fascists the use of a folk music venue for what is a political speech with songs attached. There are plenty of political forums you can take you message to. I don't go to political forums. When I go to musical events I want music not someones political manefesto. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: frogprince Date: 15 Mar 10 - 10:05 AM "Songs can be about anything and are good no matter what they have in the lyrics." Okay; got a nice rap lyric for your: Gonna rape your mamma, hump your sister wear my dick down to a blister Good God, muthafucka, kill a cop. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Ruth Archer Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:54 AM The BNP espouses politics of hate. Politics of hate must be challenged, and artists and participants of the folk genre have every right to respond to the subvesrion of their folk activity by saying "Not in my name." This is what Folk Against Fascism is about. If our resident fascists and fascist apologists are uncomfortable with this, I'm afraid I won't be losing any sleep over it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:45 AM You have it wrong! If a performer introduces their music with a political manefesto, political speech, at a music event then that is inappropriate. If they sing as song with political content and without asking for support for the cause simply explains the context that is fine. If a song has political content that is fine If a performer has a political adjenda but does not inflict it on a crowd there primairly for music that is good too. If I go to a music event I feel that appart from song content which can be of any political persuasion I do not want to have it turn out to be a platform to push a political line. There is a difference. I have been to some performances where it took ten minutes to sit through a political manefesto before and inbetween each song. The ones when they tell you to support xyz politico or xyz cause. Songs can be about anything and are good no matter what they have in the lyrics. They then are in the realm of art Now if the performer goes to a political rally they can spout their politics and sing their songs as well. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:21 AM I've never heard a song by "Yes" at a political rally. Isn't Rick Wakeman a bit passee? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: theleveller Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:48 AM So basically, Peasant, you don't want to alienate fascists but you do want to alienate anyone with a political agenda? To my mind that considerably narrows the audience and the performer base rather than widening it. I'd prefer to keep the status quo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:30 AM One thought some may be missing is that tolerating others and keeping politics in the background so that all will feel they can participate does not require acceptance of the theories or actions of individuals or groups. I object to coming to events and hearing political manefestos before I can hear the music for which I came. Yes songs are historically sung at political rallies. I do not attend political rallies. That is why when I go to hear folk music I don't want some lecture on politics other than as a backgrounder for the history of the song. I think putting politics in the background will help bring more people in and if the audience does also refrain from the political rally mentality we can broaden the audience for folk music as a whole rather than turning anyone off with political manefestos that are often given the stage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:11 AM That is complete bolleaux, Ake. Many US writers and performers, and many UK writers and performers of the revival wrote the songs they wished to write, and performed the songs they wished to perform, but at least in the UK they were largely careful to analyse the descent of folk music to see whether "industrial folk" did in fact exist. The ethos was of analysis of folk music, not distortion. The BNP seek to corrupt its nature. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: akenaton Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:50 AM Jesus Ruth.....We, the Socialists and Commies, were only too happy to Co-opt and re-form folk music in our image. Why the double standards?.....These double standards are much more dangerous than Mr Griffin, or any other politician. They perform exactly the same political function as the "race card", or the "religion card", they divide society into them and us. We should always measure our opinions with reason, not political dogma. Frank Hamilton is correct and his words remind me of the parable of the "Sun and the North Wind" They had a disagreement over who was the most powerful. They saw a traveller on the road and agreed that the one who could remove the travellers cloak would be the most powerful. The North wind blew with all his might, threw hail and snow at the traveller but the man drew his cloak ever more tightly around him until the North Wind could blow no more. The Sun sent down a pleasant warming ray on the traveller, who within minutes sat down at the roadside, removed his cloak, laid it beneath his head and fell asleep. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Ruth Archer Date: 15 Mar 10 - 05:16 AM "if people believe they are not welcome as in they have to cross a big "folksingers against fascism" banner you will never have a chance to interact." First of all, the name of the organisation is "folk against fascism" - and it was formed because of the specific political agenda of the BNP to co-opt folk CULTURE - music, dance, song, customs and traditions - into their little right-wing package of Englishness. If people who have recorded music do NOT want that music sold and marketed in any way as benefiting or representing a political party which they find abhorrent, they have a right to say so. If people take part in traditional customs, or morris dancing, or ceilidh dancing, or informal sessions, and they do not want these things branded, by extension, as representations of a far-right ideology, they have the right to say so. I am far more concerned about losing our folk culture to the manipulative influences of the far right than I am about offending a few fascists. If someone self-defines as a fascist, I am not particularly interested in interacting with him, or in fact with apologists for fascists. If you want to have tea parties with fascists in Maryland or wherever, off you go. But in the UK, FAF was a specific response to a specific set of problems. Some people will agree with it and some won't, but I am far more concerned with engaging the politically ambiguous or "apolitical" members of the folk community, and getting them to understand what FAF is all about, than I am in arguing with fascists. Life's too short. Right - off to a FAF meeting. Hoefully see many of you on 2 May at the South Bank Centre for the FAF Village Fete. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: akenaton Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:34 AM Liberalism can rather easily become a form of fascism if the thought police are given too much rein. When people are attacked for their political or social views and forced or coersed into following the party line. When freedom of speech and thought are proscribed, and people painted as morally bad for holding differing views. This is exactly what happens here on many subjects, if one does not toe the "liberal" line, one is rarely opposed by reasoned argument, but rather by a torrent of personal abuse Liberal or illiberal? Fascist or democratic? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: akenaton Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:18 AM People of this ilk, are often referred to as thought police....hence the fascist tag. This forum contains numerous examples, complete with furry jackboots! Don is simply a disgusting bully, another trait endemic on this forum. Why do I hang around?.....because there are a handful of the best and most insightful people I have ever met, between these pages......and I'm interested to see if light ever penetrates into the darker corners.....maybe aye, maybe naw, maybe hee haw!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:11 AM Don, I agree that the clarity is overdue. However, "liberal" has a different meaning in economic analysis which I am glad you eschew but "fascism" has other meanings in political analysis, and they are I think in many cases even narrower than the explanations you adopt, and in that latter respect I would I think go further than you do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: akenaton Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:08 AM Perhaps I need to ammend my words. The inverted commas are meant to signify illiberal purporting to be liberal.....the people they refer to, do not change. These people (you know who you are) do liberal ideology a great deal of harm. They basically suffer from a disease indemic to a large section of the left....hypocrisy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don Firth Date: 15 Mar 10 - 02:38 AM You're doing it again, Little Hawk. There is a bit of wiggle room in some words, and the word "fascist" is tossed around quite—ahem—liberally by those who don't really know what it means beyond "I disagree with you." But to political scientists, "liberal" and "fascist" are distinct and mutually exclusive schools of thought. And "liberal fascist" IS an oxymoron, i.e., a self-contradictory expression. If you're into the Alice in Wonderland idea that "words mean what I say they mean" rather than the definitions that most people who are knowledgeable in a particular field use, then language itself becomes little more that gibberish and meaningful communication becomes impossible. I'll take a good Webster's any day, thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:07 PM It's very easy to be fooled by words. People (specially politicians) constantly misuse them in order to push some agenda they have in mind. If you want to find out who is a "fascist", you must look at how they behave toward others, what their implicit desires and intentions are, that sort of thing. You must watch and see how they use and abuse power. They may not fit your rigorous definition of the word "fascist" as lifted from the dictionary....but they may still be essentially fascist anyway. And that's up to each one of us to decide. I know what "fascist" means to me. It might mean something different to you. If it did, that wouldn't surprise me a bit...I know that people give words meanings according to their own present desires, not due to some ultimate standard of truth. If your definition of "fascism" is a bit different from mine...fine...everybody's definition is probably a bit different, and no one here is the final authority on which is the best definition...nor is any dictionary. It's all just somebody's opinion, driven by the culture and political mythology they grew up in, the "good and evil" stereotypes they choose to obsess about, the things they're heard from others, and the ax they are presently grinding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don Firth Date: 14 Mar 10 - 10:29 PM Pardon the thread drift, but this is long overdue. Ake, you seem to be quite confused about the differences between "liberal" and "fascist" as political philosophies. Using an expression such as the oxymoronic "liberal fascist" as an epithet is a meaningless attempt at an insult and displays the depth of your ignorance regarding political science, not to mention history as well. Here's a little primer for you. Main Entry: lib•er•alFurther: Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom") is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights.[ Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but most liberals support such fundamental ideas as constitutions, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, free trade, secular society, and the market economy. These ideas are often accepted even among political groups that do not openly profess a liberal ideological orientation. Liberalism encompasses several intellectual trends and traditions, but the dominant variants are classical liberalism, which became popular in the 18th century, and social liberalism, which became popular in the 20th century.Don't bother to thank me, Ake, I am only too happy to help. But DO try to keep them straight, okay? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Mar 10 - 07:59 PM I suspect that my Dachshund is a closet Fascist. I know that he harbors ambitions to dominate the world. I've seen him practicing the straight-arm salute when he thought I wasn't looking. So I walked into the room today, shook my finger at him, and yelled, "You don't fool me, you rotten little Fascist cur!" He jumped up in rage, bit my ankle, and then peed on my shoes! You just can't trust them at all, can you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists? From: Don Firth Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:46 PM Stuff it, Ake. Considering your prejudices against certain classes of people, you're a fine one to try to make snide remarks on this subject. Don Firth |
