BS: Should you alienate Fascists?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:36 PM

WHy "should" you alienate anyone?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:21 PM

"Wanker"
As with Mike's question, was that to anyone in particular Richard or the world in general?
Peasant;
As the avarage fascist's beliefs seem to extend to ridding the world of anybody who doesn't conform to their own beliefs and racial backgrounds, when the opportunity arises, by exterminating them - what do you think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:14 PM

Takes all kinds to sing in the Choir
If you want a Choir and find a fascist that sings well
I guess you should simply sing and not mention politics
The music you will find does not mind but prospers
whoever sings it.

We can not afford to turn any group away from the music.
If you get a folk gathering together and want it to expand simply do't talk politics- if you feel the urge to talk politics have another drink.

Once a group takes on a political aura projecting a political dimension of its identity it repels the unlike group. We can't afford to loose people.

As you know or may not know......I am an artcar artist. My feeling is that designing an art car and driving it daily is something for everyone- just like folk music. Once a fellow cartist described my vehicle as a "crazy car" to a child with parent.
The entire category of artcar was thereafter marked for that individual. It will be harder for them to join in the movement.

Same with folkies. If you project extreme politics or on side left or right in everything you do then you will simply put the wall up and you will fail to reach those on the other side. Sad when there is so much more to music and our need to perpetuate and transmit it.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 02:58 PM

The BNP is a hangover from the National Front which for all intents and purposes is an English Nazi party.    This slogan from The National Front website "The National Front - The party of White family values."

Makes me shudder.

For the facebook fake BNP profile creator (who I imagine is lurking about here), I reported the fake profile of me to admin this morning. Now either the facebook admin are really on the ball (highly unlikely as it has always taken weeks before) or the creator pissed himself with fear at getting caught and removed it.

Conrad FYI, on that fake facebook profile of me your name was mentioned. You may want to follow up on that. Or maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:55 PM

"....ordinary Fascists themselves are prone to all the fallibilities of the human condition. Fascism has never claimed otherwise" Quote from an interesting defense on being fascist at this site:
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/1622

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:20 PM

This is so jolly! ;-) It's just like a bunch of McCarthyites getting together in 1956 and agreeing on how much they all hate those vile commies (although they wouldn't know a real commie if they tripped over him).

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:12 PM

"Well *#1 PEASANT* you will always get remarks like that here"

If you don't like it you can sod off back to your fascist friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:49 PM

Richard Bridge ~

Purely out of interest & desire for clarity:

~ your first post on this thread ~ #4 on the thread overall ~ consisted solely of the word "Wanker". It was not clear to me whether this was addressed to the OP or to the poster of post #3 which immediately preceded yours.

Could you be so kind as to elucidate, for taxonomic & comprehensional purposes, please.

Regards ~ Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:35 PM

The wind blew and the shit flew..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:34 PM

Apparently there are some folkies who go out of their way to recruit fascists, because they have so much fun arguing with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:12 PM

My My that was a bit spooky, Hawk.....cross posted

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:09 PM

This is fuckin' hilarious, you guys wouldn't know a fascist if you found one in your soup.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:05 PM

Ah, yes...if only we could identify all the real fascists, wouldn't that be lovely? I very much doubt it will ever happen. They don't all walk around, after all, conveniently sporting swastika armbands and shaved heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:58 AM

Why Tom T Hall would have written a song to Fascism, if he had of thought of it.Here's an example of what he could have done:

I like fascists. They make us all radical fellows
I like facists.
Much into themselves and those of their kind,
They've made me a right think'in fellow (Made him a right think'in fellow)
Commies are not tough, socialists cost too much, Hitler put my car in gear
This little refrain should help me explain as a matter of fact I like fascists
(He likes fascists)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:25 AM

"you miss the point"

On the contrary - the point is plain and clear. Zero tolerance for fascists and if the songs can help oppose them, we'll sing them loud and often. The message of those songs is everything. Got it now?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:23 AM

Geeziz Cornhole....You are really the epitome af an asswipe.......

Tell ya' what Cumstain.....How about you take that nice KKK song all about hating and killing niggers and Jews and go sing it for all the folks you meet just to show us how music can help heal. Go ahead......Let us all know how it goes for you.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:09 AM

If by alienate you mean meet them in the street with a baseball bat, you got my vote
__________________

such treatment of those you disagree with will not assist the preservation and growth of folk music
music can heal divides but not when this sort of attitude prevails

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 10:12 AM

If by alienate you mean meet them in the street with a baseball bat, you got my vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:32 AM

The BNP are an itch like syphilis (without the pleasure in the acquiring process). I note the BNP clone-makers are out again. Wonderful pattern of honesty. Did you see the Wisbech programme Sam? Your grunts can't cut it.


Konrad - you appear to know even less Irish history than me, and that takes some doing!

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:03 AM

Take the politics out of folk music and you lose a whole chunk. Traditionally, those politics have been left
_________________

you miss the point

not arguing that politics be taken out of the song content but that the community be open to all expressions from all people in a spirit of tolerance not dwelling on the individual messages but rather on the art of composition. I find it hard to believe that people can dismiss songs and song traditions just because of lyric content a relativly minor aspect of the whole. I find it easy to disregard the original purposes and messages of the lyrics. Sometimes it takes me several listens to figure out what the message is in the first place.
____________________________________

Politics have been left because communities of left thinkers have excluded others and have dominated. We need to watch out for intolerance of any kind even if it comes from people we agree with. If we focus upon the universal ground of language construction, rhyme pattern and arrangement of notes we will not have such divisions which keep others from joining us in the appreciation of traditions of all kinds and achievements of song creators and keepers through the centuries.

For example- celtic music If you listen to the celtic folks has come down from thousands of years (many would disagree but many still hold this point of view) If so then the ancient Irish Songs were produced by head hunters and those owning slaves- now under standards expressed in this forum we would never wish to play ancient celtic music due to these negative associations.

If we did so that would be a great loss. So lets get over it for other traditions and make them welcome not as political forces but as creators of musical treasures.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:51 AM

Fascism espouses the idea of a totalitarian state which, by its very nature, is opposed to personal liberty and freedom of speech. Therefore 'fascissm' and 'freedom of speech' are oxymorons (I'll refrain from drawing the obvious analogy beteween fasicst and moron).

Take the politics out of folk music and you lose a whole chunk. Traditionally, those politics have been left wing - and long my it be so. I, for one, will continue to oppose (and, hopefully alienate) the BNP and it's bedfellow, UKIP, in every way I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:42 AM

That is a very US-centric test, Ed. Indeed some of the particualr choices offered make little sense outside the US religio-political enclave. However, I appear to be about as libertarian as the Dalai Lama, but more communistic, and both more libertarian and more communistic than Gandhi.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:14 AM

If you rate Nazism as the "other side" of Zionism you're sick.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:53 AM

Some things we call constants.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:51 AM

Hi there Dude.....IUt be me...SPAW, your old buddy with yet another of my welcome messages for you!!!!

Well here we are again with yet another dumbass thread from that King of the Genre, Cornhole Bladderass, #1 PISSANT.   It is always such a pleasure to have you show up just to prove that one man CAN BE the dumbest ass in the western hemisphere!

Just love your latest philosophy! Lessee if I have it right........A song is a song is a song. Yeah, uh-huh, sure.......so then a rose is a rose is a rose.......and a broke-dick jadrool is a broke-dick jadrool is a broke-dick jadrool and you are. Seems right to me.

Please continue if you any words of wisdom. So far you haven't.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:06 AM

Thanks, MT. Conrad, send me some of what you're taking.



























On second thaought, please don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:27 PM

ubject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amergin - PM
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:21 PM

So you must like the song lyrics I posted above. lyrics like "Sharpen the long knives/let the knives stab into the Jew's body."

Those are English translations of Nazi propaganda. Like stated before you bigotry does not surprise me.

____________________________________________
Some of the most beautiful songs in the gaelic language contain wondrous tunes - treasures combined with words that are crafted into grand works of art- it is only when you translate them that there is a political view- the politics in a song is only a very small bit small enough to be vastly overshadowed by the crafting of notes and sounds. Famous poets write on a lot of subjects their poetry is still recognized as great not based upon content or literal meaning but by a host of other factors.
Get the record the Blue and the Grey- one side civil war songs of the north the other of the south- they can exist as flip sides and played and enjoyed. I could see a similar record of rabid zionist songs on one side and Nazi or rabid Palestinian songs on the other. For our purposes a song must be primairly a song.

Somewhere I remember reading of a songwriter recently who was paid to write songs for two vastly opposing political groups. His songs were praised as excelent even though content was not at all compatable.
))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))more below


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief - PM
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:24 PM

How do you know you disagree with the politics, if you don't understand the language?

Because songs are wondrous things you need not listen to or appreciate the political statements while still benefiting from the song and the crafting of the words viewed abstractly. If you only listen to the literal meaning of songs you are missing way too much.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:15 PM

Have I been excluded from events for political color of my songs
Yes
Southern Maryland Celtic Festival would not let me even post information about the existence of a web page of a collection of Orange Songs of the tradition of the island of Ireland.

They cited ban on politics.

I went right from my scolding to listen to three groups on three stages at the same festival who openly and without complaint were allowed to sing Republican songs of that tradition of the isle of Ireland

Never actually been tossed out I don't think. I am tempted to wear a conservative political button something like vote republican and see how pleasant folkies would be to me but have not wished to spoil friendships by exercising my freedom.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:13 PM

I was talking about #1 peasant's hearing of a Haitian folk song.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:05 PM

Have you taken the test?


http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:55 PM

You make it sound like bring a insensitivity,dogmatic and delusional neo-megalomaniac is a bad thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:41 PM

MT: Let Conrad answer that, will ya? Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:38 PM

"How do you know you disagree with the politics, if you don't understand the language?"

I take it you then disagree with the politics after seeing the translation?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:36 PM

Which translation, 999? You mean this one:

Germany awake from your nightmare!
Give foreign Jews no place in your Empire!
   We will fight for your resurgence!
   Aryan blood shall never perish!


? That's the first translation I find reading backward up the thread.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:28 PM

Read what he said. Read the translation fer keriste sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:24 PM

How do you know you disagree with the politics, if you don't understand the language?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:21 PM

So you must like the song lyrics I posted above. lyrics like "Sharpen the long knives/let the knives stab into the Jew's body."

Those are English translations of Nazi propaganda. Like stated before you bigotry does not surprise me.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:16 PM

Thank you for your answer.

I disagree with you, but I suspect no argument will convince you otherwise. Best to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:12 PM

I would gladly listen to Natzi music, put the politics out of the mind and evaluate the construction of the tune, the composition of the verse, rhyme scheme,relationship of words to tune politics has so little to do with the entire treasure of a multi dimensional folksong.

I was listening to a haitian songwriter politico the other day. I do not understand the language. I thoroughly disagreed with the politics for the most part but really liked the sound and flow of the music and lyrics.

To cut people off from music or music off from people just because of one of its dimensions or an association is wrong.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:00 PM

Tell me, Conrad, would you feel the same about Nazis?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:52 PM

I don't see how Pete Seeger could have been anyone but who he was. He paid for it, but anything else would have been dishonest.

    "I don't think it can be defined as an economic system, Rig...although economics is definitely part of it."


             I've done no research to prove it, but my understanding of fascism is simply "Corporate Control of Everything." One votes, in a sense, by buying stock in a company, or not buying in another. The fascist governments in Europe in the 1930's-1940's brought racism and antisemitism to the table for political purposes, but I don't think the original concept of fascism had anything to do with race or ethnicity.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:15 PM

Thanks to the management!

Music and tradition have to flow. We have to get songs and traditions through time-person to person, one to another and place to place.

Whenever we keep anyone from helping with that process we set it back and we have a hard enough job anyway.

Its bad enough that you don't agree with a group or party but why would you wish to keep them from sharing your music and what would be wrong with sharing theirs.

So maybe you can recite a disclaimer- The songs I am about to sing I love as art but do not necessarily agree with the content.

The art of writing notation, pairing it with lyrics and composing verse. Nothing political in that and that is what we glorify in music not the content.

If a person considering folkmusic- to attend, listen to, purchase, play, compose, sing, arrange.....ever says

"I would do it but that is music of people who believe "xyz" and is not for me"

WE have lost out, we have won nothing we have only discouraged others from appreciating what we appreciate.

Folk music is not a political party. Folkies should not act like a political party. They should remain neutral as a group but free as individuals. Once we are perceived as a polarized politically biased against any group we loose because it is not for us to consider politics- just to consider music.

The wonder of folk music is that it has risen above political concerns to continue. We need to keep it that way. As with the gunpowder plot. The celebration and customs of bonfire could continue because both king and parliament were saved by the discovery of the plot. When each took turns at power the customs could continue with the victor's blessing. What would happen if the political party you hated came to power after you had succeeded in booting them out of your musical tradition and alienating them from enjoying it? Not a chance whereas if you agree to disagree on politics and share the music it will have a much better chance.

A reflection on my personal history. In my conservative american household in the 50s we listened to a wide variety of music- classical, european, american, jazz. My father played folk music.
When Pete Seeger covered himself with the red flag hammer and sickle
a political barrier to his folk music was created. One had to look past his politics to see the music. He was banned from our patriotic household. I did not listen to his music till much later. Had Seeger kept his politics to his personal off stage expression his music might have been seen by more. One thing that Seeger has eventually done has been to try to perform the music of both sides of issues. This is important. This side sang this the other that. All good songs no matter what the politics projected by each.

Go forth and collect the songs of all people, admire them for their craftmanship and wonder you can do so without tarnishing them with politics or philosophy. Look to the popularity of gaelic songs. Hardly anyone knows what they mean in the mass market yet the artistry comes through in many dimensions.

I once gave a bartender a cassette of orange songs to play in a predominantly republican leaning bar in Baltimore during the break of a live performance. The bartender played the songs. The large crowd enjoyed them lyric composition tunes. Hands clapped, the music reached the people.....until a hot headed accordion player was told by me what was playing....he then insisted that politics was more important than art and ripped the cassette from the player.

We have so few listeners and helpers. We can not afford setbacks caused by wrapping folk music in exclusionary banners and political litmus tests.

Conrad Bladey
Peasant

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:01 PM

I don't think it can be defined as an economic system, Rig...although economics is definitely part of it.

What it strikes me as is an attitude of exclusivity and innate superiority to those who are considered "outsiders" in any sense; the establishment of an elite power group of rulers who are essentially above the law...though they're very eager to use the law to keep other people in line...; and an outright worship of militarism, weaponry, the armed forces, and exagerrated patriotism of every kind.

One sees these characteristics clearly in all the famous fascist systems of the 30s and 40s...plus in a great many systems now who have historically prided themselves on the fact that they fought and defeated fascism!

I shall name no names.... ;-)

One thing you have to really watch out for in this world is someone who swears up and down that he is a fervent anti-fascist (and no doubt believes it)....yet he behaves just like a fascist himself as soon as he has the power to.

That's a very common phenomenon in this world.

You can also have fascists, in my opinion, who are socialist or communist as well as fascists who are capitalist. We've had a whole series of fascists of those types. They may not agree on economic systems...but they do agree on raw power, ruthlessness, dishonesty, militarism, imperial conquest, institutionalized prejudice, and theft.

And they feel bloody well righteous and noble while they're doing it too.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:57 PM

"Should you alienate Fascists?"

Every single one of the bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:46 PM

Yeah, I guess in its purest form fascism is just an
economic system.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:10 PM

Are we talking about F/fascists, who have a distinct political and economic philosophy, or are we back on the BNP, whose core philosophy (as far as I can tell) is basic bigotry thinly disguised as appreciation for traditional (don't start!) values? If the former, probably. If the latter, certainly - if you have the time to waste.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:57 PM

That's REAL irony folks.....just like they do it in the good ole UK!

Nice one Hawk.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:30 PM

How does one go about alienating a Fascist? ;-)























I bet it's the same way one alienates most people...

Disagree with him.
Disapprove of him.
Pick a fight with him over his beliefs.
Let him know you can't stand him.
Point out all the things you don't like about him.
Demand that he be excluded from society.
Make him well aware that he is as the dirt beneath your noble shoes.

Etc...

Really quite simple when you think about it. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:27 PM

VT....Didnt the political agenda of the real left (Woody Ewan etc) co opt folk music?

Wasn't that what the revival was all about?

Seems to me, fascist to say it must always be OUR agenda!

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:25 PM

Isn't that "Fashits"?