 sj |
||
|
||
BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Greg F. Date: 17 Jul 12 - 10:18 AM Hey, Bobert, the South doesn't have a monopoly on "abject poverty" - Appalachia continues from West VA right on up thru Pennsylvania & into the Adirondacks of northern New York. I'll match you one on one for folks with no jobs, no cars, no homes, no money, little or no food, and no hope. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 17 Jul 12 - 09:04 AM With more and more folks, who used to consider themselves middle class, falling into poverty it is America's #1 problem right now... And it need to be corrected or we are not going to maintain any level of civilization... Crime rates, after a 2 decade drop, are back on the rise... There isn't a day that goes by here in the Charlotte, NC area where there isn't at least 1 murder and usually more than 1... We need to address this... And soon... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Stim Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:06 AM I don't disagree with you, Bobert. I've been around a while. Long enough to have noticed there aren't many people, right or left, who really have very much commitment to dealing with it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jul 12 - 11:44 PM Bobert: "Wrong, Stim... I am talking about abject poverty..." Moral poverty??....or intellectual poverty?.......oh yeah, you're all talkin' about MONEY!!!...just like rich folks, huh? GfS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 12 - 10:54 PM Wrong, Stim... I am talking about abject poverty... You don't see these folks in the mall... You don't see these people driving cars... I live in the deep south and can take you to areas where these people live... It's like 50-60 years ago... Of course, righties say it doesn't exist... It exists and it is massive... I mean, I can take ya'll to areas in any major city where folks are warehoused... Tens of millions of folks are hidden in the US... So other folks think, "Hey, they don't exist"... I was a social worker for a good portion of my life... I've seen the hiding places and they aren't pretty... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Stim Date: 16 Jul 12 - 10:41 PM After having reconsidered Bobert's recent post, and after having done a bunch of googling, even without his article, I've figured out what he is talking about--(well, I still don't actually get his point), but he is referring "relative poverty", which is an income level that, depending on who is figuring it, is set at 50-60% of the median income, and is more of a register of income inequality, and a restriction of choices, rather than material suffering (i.e.-Jimmy's family went Skiing in Vail, we went snow tubing on the Golf Course). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 07:27 PM Absolutely! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 12 - 07:26 PM Implication: We have one shit load of Americans living below, at or barely over poverty... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 07:14 PM Bobert, I think you are explaining what you read well enough. But you do seem a bit blurry about the implications. I think you have made your point. You don't have to look for the article for my sake. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 12 - 06:55 PM My brain is gettin' blurry trying to explain something that seemed so easy for me to understand in the article but impossible to explain to folks who usually get stuff... B for Bobert B for Bobert w/blurry brain (Leave it alone GfinS...) B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jul 12 - 06:31 PM Jack the Sailor: ""Out loud?" It is text on a computer screen. What is wrong with you? LOL!!" So loud..MY EYES ARE GETTING BLURRY!!!!....my ears are already ringing, but that's not from you...so, you're off the hook! Waving GfS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 12 - 05:52 PM I'll try to find the article, Jack... You obviously don't get it... It's not about a median income for 50% of the population... It is about the median income of only those in the bottom half... When you put the top half in it brings the median income up because some people make millions... There are no millionaires in the bottom half... Like I said, "you don't get it"... I'll see if I can find the date it was published and go from there... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Wesley S Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:48 PM Ry Cooders' - "No Banker Left Behind" My telephone rang one evening, my buddy called for me Said the bankers are all leavin', you better come round and see It started revelation, they robbed the nation blind, They're all down at the station, no banker left behind. No banker, no banker, no banker could I find. They were all down at the station, no banker left behind Well the bankers called a meetin', to the whitehouse they went one day They was going to call one the president, in a quiet and a sociable way The afternoon was sunny and the weather it was fine They counted all our money and no banker was left behind No banker, no banker, no banker could I find. They were all down at the white house, no banker was left behind Well I hear the whistle blowin, it plays a happy tune The conductor is calling "all abort", we'll be leavin soon With champagne and shrimp cocktails and that's not all you'll find There's a billion dollar bonus and no banker left behind No banker, no banker, no banker could I find. When the train pulled out next mornin', no banker was left behind No banker, no banker, no banker could I find. When the train pulled out next mornin', no banker was left behind No banker, no banker, no banker could I find. They were all down at the station, no banker left behind No banker, no banker, no banker could I find. When the train pulled out next mornin', no banker was left behind |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:38 PM NPR article. From today. 1/2 of households make 50 k or more. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:15 PM I give up, Jack... B;~) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:11 PM "Out loud?" It is text on a computer screen. What is wrong with you? LOL!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jul 12 - 03:52 PM Are you figuring it out, still..out loud?? GfS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 03:50 PM "Nope, not 1/2 of 1/2 but 1/2 of whole population which means 1/2 the entire population." Show me where I am wrong. "For the last time, we are using stats for the bottom 50% of wage earners... Forget the top half... They don't count." The top half is half. The bottom half is the other half. Half of the bottom half is a quarter? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:44 PM Jack the Sailor: "So what have we concluded so far?" Well, taking a look at Bobert's post...apparently NOTHING! BTW, Bobert, I got your CD..just got in,..haven't listened yet..I'll sound you, after I do. Regards..You hopeless Party guy! GfS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:41 PM Nope, not 1/2 of 1/2 but 1/2 of whole population which means 1/2 the entire population... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:38 PM "For the last time, we are using stats for the bottom 50% of wage earners... Forget the top half... They don't count." That seems to me to be a confusing way to put it. But I don't work as an editor for the Charlotte Observer. So who am I to say? Lets get back to the topic. So you are saying that half (50%) of half (50%) which equals about one quarter (25%) of "wage earners" are below the poverty line? That kind of clears up the confusion for me. It is also in accord with the government statistics some of us had posted. So we all agree that.... A high number of Americans (19-25%) are at 125% of the poverty line or less? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:17 PM No, Jack... For the last time, we are using stats for the bottom 50% of wage earners... Forget the top half... They don't count... Their income isn't reflected in the median income... Just the bottom half of earned income divided by the number of people in the bottom half comes out to, according to the "Charlotte Observer" a little over $26,000 a year per family of four in the bottom half... That $26,000 is actually less than the 125% of poverty but given that you have some folks who make a little more and other less that the 125% is a fairly accurate number for 1/2 of American households... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:09 PM So what have we concluded so far? That the OP title is fairly meaningless because "rich" is a once a relative, loaded and somewhat meaningless term and we don't know exactly what the question the survey asked was? That a high number of Americans (19-50%) are at 125% of the poverty line or less? That there are people in the world poorer than the poorest American? Anything else? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:58 PM That was me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:57 PM "On January 1, 2008 more than 1 in 100 adults in the United States were in prison or jail.[13][14] In 2008 approximately one in every 31 adults (7.3 million) in the United States was behind bars, or being monitored (probation and parole). In 2008 the breakdown for adults under correctional control was as follows: one out of 18 men, one in 89 women, one in 11 African-Americans (9.2 percent), one in 27 Latinos (3.7 percent), and one in 45 Caucasians (2.2 percent). Crime rates have declined by about 25 percent from 1988-2008.[15] 70% of prisoners in the United States are non-whites.[16] In recent decades the U.S. has experienced a surge in its prison population, quadrupling since 1980, partially as a result of mandatory sentencing that came about during the "war on drugs." Violent crime and property crime have declined since the early 1990s.[17]" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:53 PM ...another re-occurring theme!!!!!! Think and enjoy....I would think! GfS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:52 PM Part of the problem with poverty figures is that exactly how poverty is measured is based on I think a 50-year-old formula in the USA. Poverty - World Bank The complexity of the measurement itself is difficult. ##################################### As to the thread title, deserve implies they actually did something to become wealthy. However, once a family or extended family has more than enough for its needs, what real good is the rest? Stop playboys and playgirls from manipulating stock markets and fewer people will be driven into poverty. Force the SEC to do its job. Force the FBI to get the lead out and do their jobs. Seems like lotsa rich folks get away with bad shit and nothing happens to them. Be rich and get caught with cocaine and ya get weekend community service. Be poor and get caught with a half-ounce of weed and yer busted. No country can afford to have rich people when there are poor people in that country. (As for the wise-ass who's about to say "If the guy's so poor what's he doing with a half oz of weed", his friend from the middle class gave it to him for his birthday.) ############################################ Look at prison populations and their demographic makeup. Find me some rich people in there. Hell, find me some of the 1% in there. I'd love to read about it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Charley Noble Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:34 PM It's fun to work on holidays, or when the day is done; Why should they pay us overtime for having so much fun? For having so much fun my boys, for having so much fun -- Pay overtime would be a crime for having so much fun. Charley Noble |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:29 PM If we use the premise that we are all created equal then we should share equally in the bounties of this world. However in this world many cats become fat eating someone else's share of the pie. The cat of course will say that he deserves to become fat at the cost of others, because he has bigger teeth and sharper claws! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jul 12 - 11:49 AM Gosh..ever heard this before?????? Check any number of posts by myself, Little Hawk, pdq, 999, akenaton, Songwronger, number 6, and a few others, that I can't recall off the top of my head..... GfS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 10:47 AM Stim, That is a larger issue. But it has nothing to do with the poll in question. Bobert. I'm losing you. Are you saying that half of the people in the whole country are below 1.25% of the poverty line or half of the people in the lower 50% of incomes? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 12 - 10:16 AM That chart is accurate... Just different stats... That chart includes *all* incomes... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Stim Date: 16 Jul 12 - 09:39 AM Bogus? Sorry, Bobert, that number came from the chart that JtS posted a link to. And it is in the ballpark with the link that Bruce posted. As to your source, I went to the Charlotte Observer on line(which you could have done, and should have done) and dug out and read all the articles about income and poverty that I could find back to Sept 2011, and I could find nothing like what you claimed was there. Not only that, in the articles I read, they tended to cite the $50k number. So... Anyway, I am sorry Eliza got chased off, because she tried to focus on the larger issue--which has to do with the fact that most of the world's resources go to benefit the "First Worlders" half of whom Bobert seems to think are dangerously impoverished. Anyway, JtS, I don't know how the census bureau differentiates between "household" and "family" , and I can't look into it today. I've looked at more detailed breakout of the census low income numbers though, and I noticed the curious fact that many of those low income households have no wage earner and average less than one member. It makes me think that the numbers are based on income tax records. That may mean that many of the "poor" households are poor because they don't have much taxable income-keep in mind that annuities and pensions may be only partially taxed, so the part that shows up on income tax records is only part of a larger income. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:17 AM I'm very sorry Jack the Sailor, to have unwittingly intruded on a thread intended only for comments about financial matters in the US. Please therefore ignore my postings, and I withdraw from the discussion. Kindest regards, Eliza. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Penny S. Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:05 AM This map shows where people are in poverty in the UK. Maybe only temporary - the foodbank sites show that it's often change in benefits that leaves people with no income and empty cupboards. Foodbank map Penny |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:53 AM Nice link Bruce. Thanks |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:27 AM Here we are, talking about 'wealth' and 'riches'..and all you can think about is MONEY!!...No wonder we're poor! GfS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:05 AM Poverty Tracker. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:52 PM Doesn't much matter, Jack... If we are looking at the bottom half of income earners then $50K would be like hitting the lottery... Again: When we look exclusively at the bottom 50% we find that most of them fall into that 125% of poverty or less... Only those at the very top of the bottom half might be slightly out of that 125%... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:35 PM "the median household income is $50k, the median family income is $61k." If one person is in a household do they count him or her as a family? Probably not. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:22 PM ...and 100!!! B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:22 PM Yo GUEST, Stim... You apparently haven't followed up with the source I provided you... Your 19% is bogus... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:14 PM "because we're trying to figure out how many people are suffering. I may be a bit naive, but I happen to think that is a useful endeavor." Oh I thought that people were arguing with Bobert about the meaning of terms in statistics and trying to "catch him in a lie". Which IMHO is a pretty trivial endeavor. Maybe it is 19% , the way I read the graph there is no way in can be under 25%, unless all of the people in the 25,000 and up category make more than the figure Bobert quoted. Was it 26,125? But I will admit it is probably 30% or less. So again, 20%, 25%, 30% or 50% in poverty is still not a good thing. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Stim Date: 15 Jul 12 - 09:32 PM Actually, Jack, it looks more like about 19% of the households fall in that area. I don't see why this discussion is pointless, because we're trying to figure out how many people are suffering. I may be a bit naive, but I happen to think that is a useful endeavor. I want to point something out, though, and that is that the census bureau says that, while the median household income is $50k, the median family income is $61k. What the difference is, I don't know, but I know this: the higher the median, the higher the cost of living, and the harder it is for those in the bottom 20% or so. I happen to live in the state with the highest median family income in the country, and I can tell you for a fact that there are a lot of households with incomes in the $80-90-100k ranges that are just barely getting by- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 15 Jul 12 - 08:32 PM Well, I have now debunked the 58% and... ...taken the discussion to a new level about poverty in America... Tough beans, righties... Reality is what it is... Mythology and bogus stats aren't... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: bobad Date: 15 Jul 12 - 07:13 PM My wife and I have been living on less than $26,000.00 for the past 22 years - we don't consider ouselves poor but our lifestyle is based on self sufficiency as much as possible. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 15 Jul 12 - 06:19 PM attack |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 15 Jul 12 - 06:19 PM Yes they might think that. But that would be off topic. which is.. 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth If you mean to make this point " I will try to do something to reduce the suffering by donating/volunteering/fundraising etc and in my own small way redress the balance a little!" Then maybe the best place to make it is not on a thread on US politics where the original poster is trying to make the very dubious point that the rich supporters of the Tea Party have the support of 58% of the population in their quest not to be saddled with a horrible vicious 39% TOP marginal tax rate. Which even though it applies to about 2% of us is both an attach on everyone's person freedoms and too trivial to make a difference. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Jul 12 - 06:18 PM They might indeed, and often enough they do. As the saying goes "it's the poor as helps the poor". And it's the poor as helps the rich as well, but that's more a question of taking than giving... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 15 Jul 12 - 05:57 PM Or they just might think "Compared to an orphan in Delhi I am rich! Therefore I will try to do something to reduce the suffering by donating/volunteering/fundraising etc and in my own small way redress the balance a little!" |
