BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,nobody in particular
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 02:53 PM

Sorry it took me so long to get back with you, but arguing with 'obstinate and stubborn' people is not at the top of my list of things to do, but anyway, I will reply to a couple of comments.

First, I'd like to address Ebbie's comment about my lack of 'charm'.
What does 'charm' have to do with the truthfulness of a statement?
'Charm' is for smooth-talkers, con men, used car salesmen, attorneys, barristers, politicians, and anyone who is engaged in using a 'charming' pitch to hustle you out of your assumed common sense!

The truth, in contrast, may come out crude or even brutal, but it isn't being told to you, to deceive you, nor dishonour your common sense, will, or productivity, by hustling you out of any of them. In essence, the fact I was, and am telling you the truth, I am assuming that you would feel honoured that someone is recognising, that you would have common sense within you, and would feel complimented, that you aren't so shallow, as to be swayed by 'charm', in place of the plain truth.
Am I wrong, here?

Bobert, you seem to be enamoured, by the wonderfulness of Bill Gates. So, here is a link about Bill Gates, to bolster your admiration of him!

First look at this one, ony about 3 minutes long, watch till the end


Now look at this one, and take note of the political endorsement under video!

Be Charmed!!!

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 10:42 AM

What about the four richest chimps in America? Do they deserve their wealth?

Cheetah comes to mind...but the poor guy died a couple of years ago. If there's a Heaven and a Hell (in the traditional sense), God will have sorted out that one by now, I guess. ;-)

****

Sawzaw is quite right about one thing: his point about "Tribal Politics" on this website. It's an obvious problem here and it always has been. For instance, if a Republican president had enacted the NDAA, the Democratic tribe here would be enraged about it...but Obama did it, so hardly a peep is uttered in protest. Selective blindness. Ditto for half the other stuff Obama has done once in office. If Bush had done the very same things, he'd be damned for it by most people here.

This does not, however, answer my question about the 4 richest chimps.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 10:31 AM

It's interesting to compare three of the top 10, Eb... Looks what Bill gates is doing with his money and what the Kochs are doing with theirs... Gates uses his pro-actively to promote pro-human, pro-Earth issues while...

...the Koch brothers re-actively use theirs to promote anti-human and anti-Earth agendas...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 10:06 PM

Sawzaw reiterates his question: "Still no one here has the guts to say if the 4 richest people in America deserve their wealth because they are Democrats and to do so would violate Tribal Politics."

It led me to wonder why the figure was four so I looked around.

The first ten (10) are listed as:

Bill Gates
Warren Buffet
Larry Ellison
Charles Koch
David Koch
Christy Walton
George Soros
Sheldon Adelson
Jim Walton
Alice Walton

Of those 10 one can safely say that at least 6 of them are NOT Democrats.

As for the FOUR richest Americans listed by Forbes, three are clearly Democrats; the fourth is clearly NOT. So where does one find your list, SZ?

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Elmore
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 06:46 PM

As through this wold you wander you see lots of funny men.Some will rob you with a six gun, some with a fountain pen. -W.W. Guthrie.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 04:49 PM

I don't think having Chongz forgive me would do either of much good, LH... Might wreck our relationship...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 04:35 PM

You are forgiven, Bobert. ;-) Now, if you would just take back that "poopflinging" stuff, Chongo might forgive you too.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 04:27 PM

Sawzaw - You've been asking "if the 4 richest people in America deserve their wealth"...

I haven't given you an answer to that because:

I don't know.

And I'm not sure how I would go about finding out, assuming I could spare the time...and had sufficient interest to bother doing so. ;-)

Hell, I don't even know if I or the guy next door "deserve" our present levels of wealth. It's a hard thing to calculate.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 04:26 PM

Well said, Eb... The water analogy was the one I was trying to make with the "paradox of value" concept...

Now listen LH, I didn't say that you and Lyndon LaRouche are two peas in a pod... I said that your ideas on having a gold standard are similar to those held by Lyndon LaRouche...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 04:22 PM

Thanks for giving what I said some serious thought, Ebbie.

I'd have no problem with beads being seen as a common medium of exchange in a culture. It takes skilled work to make beads...specially really attractive beads. A better made bead, one made out of superior material, is clearly worth more than a poorly made bead. Again, one is basically paying for the visible qualities, the utility, the durability, and the amount of work required to produce the item.

It took a lot of work to harvest furs too, so I have no problem with them being a medium of exchange in a hunting and gathering culture...providing the animal species don't get wiped out in the process.

You are right that "the human construct was and is dependent upon circumstance and culture." Absolutely.

The thing that worries me about printing an unbacked currency (or creating it through loans, meaning in the form of debt and interest) is this: it takes no real work to create it. Any amount of if can be instantly created. This opens the door to graft and corruption on a simply incredible scale by those few who do create it.

Yes, we could opt for a new form of wealth measurement. It need not be silver or gold. It need not be paper money. It should be something real, though...meaning something that is tactile, measureable, and which requires work to create, harvest, etc. If so, then it's really worth something.

One reason precious metals have served very well in the past is that they are compact, durable, attractive, and require a great deal of work to be done in their discovery, mining, and refining. The effort expended results in a high value for the product. This is also true with diamonds and precious stones, but they're not as conveniently workable into various shapes as metals are.

I can easily see where pure drinking water could become the dominant medium of exchange for some future society. You wouldn't carry it in your pocket, though. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 03:20 PM

I do understand the implications of what you are saying, Little Hawk, but to my mind utilizing gold or other metal as the measurement of wealth is a human construct. There was allegedly a time when beads were the standard among Native Americans. In another region and a different era, a pile of furs was the symbol of prosperity (I know. I know- because the furs implied the ability to turn them into real wealth, meaning gold). In future, wealth may be measured by access to water.   My point is that the human construct was and is dependent upon circumstance and culture.

Little Hawk: "By the way, since all national currencies in the world are now unbacked fiat money...everyone is vulnerable this time. Not just one nation this time. Everyone."

Granted. At the same time, does that not imply the possibility of a new wealth measurement?

I just thought of 'scrip', an IOU, a piece of paper that acknowledges the debt of the payer to the payee, a system that is vulnerable to abuse in the wrong hands but that has worked for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 03:01 PM

As for gold...I've never seen a living adult human being who didn't take that stuff seriously when you showed it to them...or they held it in their hand. But I have heard of people burning paper money...or taking an entire shopping bag full of it just to buy a loaf of bread. That's what happens when the pyramid scheme of unbacked and grossly inflated paper money collapses and the bubble bursts. It has happened in many, many places. It can happen here too.

Now, gold won't do you any good when you're on the deck of the sinking Titanic....nor will paper money at that point...but it'll do you much good if you get rescued, just as soon as you set foot on the next ship or on the dock.

We can all find some extreme circumstance in life where an exchangeable and normally valuable commodity is suddenly worth nothing. Doesn't disprove the fact that a dollar backed by something real is far stronger than a dollar backed by nothing but itself and the word of those who printed it.

By the way, since all national currencies in the world are now unbacked fiat money...everyone is vulnerable this time. Not just one nation this time. Everyone.

Part of what worries me is that nations facing financial ruin will often stumble into a war as a way of supposedly "solving the problem". That's like solving a small kitchen fire by throwing a gallon of gasoline on it.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 02:27 PM

Don't play the guilt by (imagined) association card on me, Bobert. You do that every time you mention Lyndon LaRouche, one of your favorite whipping boys or monsters under the bed. I have no association with Lyndon LaRouche, he isn't my hero, I never heard of him till you brought him up various times in regards to something I had posted about monetary policy. Lots of other people agree that currency should be backed up by and redeemable in an official amount of something real...not just Mr LaRouche.

I looked him up and found that I agree with him about some things....and I disagree with him about others. And there are others where I just don't know what I think about it.

I could say that about almost anybody. For you to invoke his name to me as if I subscribed to his entire philosophy is as unhelpful as if I were to invoke somebody else's name that way in regards to you. It implies that he and I are alike. Not necessarily so.

Backing up the dollar with gold and silver was considered "realistic" for a very looooong time. And it worked. What makes you think it's unrealistic to do it now?

I'll tell you why they won't do it. Because they have created trillions of dollars out of thin air just to enrich themselves and maintain a tottering pyramid scheme a little longer....and NO amount of real stuff could be found to back it up, because they've basically done what a counterfeiter does with a printing press. They created MONEY without doing a lick of actual work to earn it. That makes it worthless. It takes work to mine and refine gold and silver, and that's why a currency that's redeemable in set amounts of those metals is automatically worth what it claims to be worth.

You're making excuses for a criminal financial system and saying "there's no other way to do it". That's what they say too. But they're rich. And you're not. Cos YOU don't have the Fed's printing press! ;-) If you did, you could buy all the pot in West Virginia...for the time being.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 01:04 PM

I think your anecdote fails on several levels, SZ. (I might add that I also marvel at the tenacity of these dying men.)

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 09:12 AM

So a man is dying of thirst and he comes across a lemonade stand with one glass left. All he has is baseball cards and sock dolls. The another dying man arrives with some gold. Which one gets the lemonade?

I learned how to spell lemonade in the 4th grade. Bobert did not attend. Too busy tokin' out behind the Gym.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 07:54 AM

LH

Your currency ideas are not realistic for the a modern global economy...

No reason for me to restate my entire arguments again as that will save you from going thru yours...

But I will say that you are in good company... Your arguments are the same as Lyndon LaRouche's... Except he ended his by accusing Nancy Reagan of running the American drug cartel... LOL...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 05:26 AM

"Bogus polling... Any college Stats instructor would point that out right away..."

The person that made this assertion has not backed up his assertion or admitted that he was wrong.

Meanwhile major colleges, universities newspapers and polling organization use the same questions and I have backed up that assertion.

I am courteously asking for that person to back up his assertion with something other than his own claims and opinions.

Forums prefer a premise of open and free discussion and often adopt de facto standards. Most common topics on forums include questions, comparisons, polls of opinion as well as debates. It is not uncommon for nonsense or unsocial behavior to sprout as people lose temper, especially if the topic is controversial. Poor understanding of differences in values of the participants is a common problem on forums. Because replies to a topic are often worded aimed at someone's point of view, discussion will usually go slightly off into several directions as people question each others' validity, sources and so on. Circular discussion and ambiguity in replies can extend for several tens of posts of a thread eventually ending when everyone gives up or attention spans waver and a more interesting subject takes over. It is not uncommon for debate to end in ad hominem attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 04:02 AM

You're really not following my reasoning on this money thing, Ebbie and Bobert. Everything in this world that is real has an intrinsic value. All metals have some intrinsic value, because they are real...and they can be used for various practical purposes. The reason that gold is more valuable than most other metals is:

1. it doesn't oxidize or tarnish...it is impervious to aging. That's very important!
2. it's very beautiful in appearance
3. it's highly malleable (workable), and that makes it very useful for a number of purposes, both decorative and practical
4. it's a superb conductor
5. it's relatively rare and quite hard to acquire...and anything desirable (to anyone) that is rare and hard to acquire has a correspondingly high value just for that reason alone.

All of the above factors combine to make it historically the most sought-after metal for as long as we have had a recorded history.

Other metals have an intrinsic value too, although most of them are worth a lot less than gold....partly because they're a lot easier to acquire, a lot more common, less malleable, and not nearly as attractive in appearance...and they oxidize (tarnish)!

All other REAL things also have an intrinsic value. Wood is intrinsically valuable. Soil is intrinsically valuable. Water is intrinsically valuable. Stone and sand are intrinsically valuable.   Living things are intrinsically valuable. Air is intrinsically valuable. Clothing and other manufactured goods are intrinsically valuable. Salt and sugar are intrinsically valuable (they served as currency in some past civilizations). Even manure is intrinsically valuable...as fertilizer.

Paper money....unless it is backed by a set and guaranteed amount of something real per unit of money is NOT intrinsically valuable...unless you use it, as the Lakota did after Custer's demise....to start fires with! ;-) And in that case it's still worth virtually nothing, but at least you can burn it. You sure as hell can't do much else with it the moment people stop believing it has value. And they have many times stopped believing just that when a paper currency collapsed. They have NEVER stopped believing gold or silver were valuable.

The moment the USA did 2 things: took the dollar off the gold standard and replaced silver certificates with federal reserve notes, the dollar became a symbolic piece of paper backed by NOTHING intrinsically valuable whatsoever, it became Monopoly money, and it has dramatically declined in purchashing power ever since.

That has enriched the bankers, because it is they who create almost all the money that's out there, either in the form of debt...or when the Fed prints its federal reserve notes. The Fed is a privately owned bank.

How can you not understand the difference between a paper bill that is not legally convertible to a set amount of something REAL and one that is????

I think you're just plain being stubborn and obstinate on this matter. Of course, you gotta do that to remain "right"...right? So why should I be surprised? ;-) Most people would rather be right than be reasonable...oh, but I forgot...most people think they ARE reasonable? Right?

Hell, then we're all geniuses. It's always the other guy that's wrong, right?

Why am I even bothering to discuss it with you? It won't do me any good. I guess I must not be able to resist.

And why will you do the same? For the very same reason. You just can't stop yourselves from talking. Same as me.

And that describes everyone here. A bunch of silly people who talk...and talk...and talk....and talk....and they'll keep doing it till the power fails or till they die.

Whichever happens first.

And they'll all be RIGHT every time...dead right. Maybe they'll put that on all of our tombstones when we're gone. "He was right every time. She was right every time. And now they're both dead."

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 01:01 PM

Thanks, Eb... I had a super good economics professor... She taught both Econ 201 and 202... 201 was reasonable like 10:00 but 202 wasn't... I recall it being either an 8:00 or 9:00 class but I liked her so much I forced myslef to get up to get to it... Which wasn't easy as I was sometimes playing music the night before... Heck of a teacher...

I'd love to hear what she has to say about today's Republican ideas on the economy... They would not be flattering...

Oh, and BTW... I didn't attend one of those "Eastern pointy headed latte sippin' Volvo drivein'" schools... This was Richmond, Va. at a state supported intercity school...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 11:55 AM

I was going to make the point that designating anything as intrinsically valuable is only an agreed-upon fiction, that having the most marbles or shoes or hats will not keep anyone alive. Bobert said it better.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 10:13 AM

Still no one here has the guts to say if the 4 richest people in America deserve their wealth because they are Democrats and to do so would violate Tribal Politics.

I believe they deserve it.

Paulson, Soros upped gold holdings last quarter

Hedge-fund managers John Paulson and George Soros boosted their gold holdings during the second quarter, a sign that some high-profile investors were still banking on higher prices for the precious metal despite its lackluster performance this year.

John Paulson's Paulson & Co. Inc. raised its stake in SPDR Gold Shares GLD -0.32% , the world's largest exchange-traded gold fund, by 26% during the three months ended June 30. Paulson & Co. held 21.8 million shares, valued at $3.3 billion at the end of June, according to a quarterly securities filing released late Tuesday.

The fund also increased its holdings of gold-mining companies, holding a combined 98 million shares, up 3.5% from the previous quarter and valued at $1.9 billion. Paulson's gold ETF and mining-company holdings together accounted for 44% of its U.S.-traded equity assets, from 33% the previous quarter.

Soros Fund Management LLC more than doubled its stake in SPDR Gold Shares during the three months ended June 30, according to a filing, to the highest level since the end of 2010.

The hedge fund held 884,400 shares, valued at $137.3 million at the end of June, from 319,550, or $51.8 million, the previous quarter.

Soros Fund nearly cashed out of gold during the first quarter of 2011, reducing its shares of SPDR Gold Shares by 98%, to a stake valued at less than $7 million. The fund continued to pare its position, to a low of 42,800 shares during the second quarter of 2011, before rebuilding its stake in the quarters that followed.

Benchmark gold futures fell 4% during the period covered by the funds' securities filings, as the European Central Bank and the U.S. Federal Reserve refrained from implementing new monetary-easing measures despite slowing global economic growth.

Easing policies can raise concerns about inflation down the line, drawing investors looking for a currency hedge into precious metals.

Through Tuesday's close, benchmark gold futures were up 1.4% in 2012, and down 15% from September's record high.

Subscribe to WSJ: http://online.wsj.com?mod=djnwires

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 08:07 PM

The reason why gold is $1800 an ounce is simple... The world is filled with Lyndon LaRouche thinkers who just have to have currency backed by something and they worry what they are going to do after the big asteroid hits Earth or the revolution comes to their town...

Bad news for the gold/bead worshipers...

It won't do them any good after the asteroid or revolution... Nope...

There is something called "paradox of value"... I'll lay it real simple... Man is in the desert and not had anything to drink in a couple days and about to give up when he comes to a guy with a little lemonaide stand... But the guy is into diversity so he sell both gold and lemonaide...

You pick...

All that glitter is not gold and even the stuff that is won't get you out of most jams that come along in life...

Might do better with baseball cards???

Me??? I'd use that spare $$$ to put solar panels on the roof so if the shit hits the fan I got electricity... Or a garden... Or, or...

Gold don't do anything more than beads or sock dolls...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 07:54 PM

Thanks LH, I try to put a few facts out to aid the discussion, otherwise folks are just budgeoning each other with their respective opinions.

About Nixon, what was he supposed to do? Let the Russians buy all the gold in Fort Knox at an obsolete exchange rate? Much of what Russia has came from the US when it was $35 per ounce. It is now about $1800.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 07:49 PM

Having a bead, gold or sock doll backed currency wouldn't have changed any of the corruption, LH... It would just mean that everyone would have to build big secure building to store their beads, gold or sock dolls...

Guess again...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 07:43 PM

Yeah, Ebbie, I think my opinions are evolving. They've been evolving for as long as I can remember. I am always willing to consider a new angle on things.

Besides...I'm also aware that I don't know for sure about a lot of this stuff. How could I? I don't have access to all the relevant information...and I have to get that information from other people who also probably don't know for sure about a lot of the stuff they say.

Guest, nobody in particular - Yes, I am the one referred to in people's posts as LH. Cheers!

pdq - you are quite correct about FDR's 1933 actions in regards to making ownership of gold illegal, and also about the later elimination of silver coinage from circulation in the 1960s. That happened after John Kennedy was out of the picture. Those 2 actions, along with Nixon's 1971 termination of the Bretton-Woods version of the gold standard have turned the entire world's national currencies into worthless fiat money that is backed up by nothing real, and the bankers have used that circumstance along with fractional reserve lending to enrich themselves through what amounts to a gigantic Ponzi scheme. And who has paid for it? The general public has...through taxes levied to pay down (a portion of) the interest on the ever-growing national debt, and through inflation. This is particularly hard on old people, people on fixed incomes, poor people, and the rapidly eroding middle class. It's a bubble that must someday burst.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 03:13 PM

Yeah, poor Ann Romney... Times got so tough once that she and Mitt had to cash in some of their stocks... Horrors... Pass the Kleeix...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 01:11 PM

I looked up some of the Richest People in America' and discovered that those who are single-digit billionaires sound positively pauperish. Maybe that is why they can never have enough.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/list/

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 08:45 AM

Still nobody here has the guts to say if the 4 richest people in the US deserve their wealth.

It smacks of intellectual dishonesty to me.

"We gonna get another 9/11 close to election time?"

"But I'm gonna go on record of predictin' another 9-11 event in just over a year becuase the Repubs will be in desperate need for one and if they are goina stand any chance of holding the White House, after this dismal 8 years of theivery and lies, they can't do it without another 9/11... Keep in mind that the week before 9/11 Bush had the lowest approval rating of any president since such polls have been taken....

So that's my prediction... Sad... but I'm sticken by it...

Bobert"

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 11:27 PM

I know. Or if not, it seems every country has got 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 09:37 PM

Not too sure but seems that no-one is some-one we all know well, trying to reinvent his or her self...

Just guessing...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 09:15 PM

"Enough! This is the longest post that I was n!ever intending to write"

Guest/Nobody I want to know, you are SUCH a charmer.

Little Hawk, the reason I asked in that manner is that in other posts- going WAY back - you have intimated a far different scenario. Does that mean that your opinions are evolving and that you are no longer quite as sure of yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 05:49 PM

Ya' know, the US has been here before and wiggled out... That was a little over a century ago... I can be done... I am not going to fall into the it-can't-be-done-syndrome... It must be done... We have no other choice but to fix this broken government... They said it couldn't be done last time... Actually, there were poeple who thought that if man were to go over 28 miles and hour in an automobile that it would kill him back then...

We will get thru this...

Hey, if it takes someone like Bill Gates to fund a 100 member group of randomly selected citizens to coime up with the systemic fixes so be it... It will get fixed, one way or another...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,nobody in particular
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 05:11 PM

Ironic that your Constitution, which is supposed to be the supreme law of your country, says one thing, and certain Presidents just issue an order that changes that law, and no one is prosecuted for fraud! Bankers, Presidents, the mints, financial institutions, no one! Something is seriously wrong here, and it has damaged your country, and those of us on an international level, and NOTHING is done, except another election of another phoney, who appoints another phoney 'justice department'! Then some of you get all hot and bothered when 'your' particular candidate fails to gather strong support. Somehow, down deep, I think most people are not so numb and dumb, to sense that something is VERY VERY wrong
and they just vote so they can get your inane elections over with!

Right now, neither of your candidates are saying HOW they will fix anything. They just throw accusations out at each other, most of them not even true, Obama keeps bringing up EVERY petty thing he can to NOT address his neglect and failure to fix anything, and Romney says how concerned he is, and how the economy needs more jobs, but does not offer any plan! Neither does Obama, and you folks are just stuck with a couple of worthless figureheads! You might as well elect a plastic statue!!

I didn't even want to sucked into your worthless and deceptive politics!! Your failed policies of fraud and lies are going to take down most all of civilised countries, and the best you can come up with, is arguing about the colour of your candidate, and who is waging a 'war on women', letting people vote in your elections, who aren't even citizens, while allowing yourselves to print worthless fiat money, just to keep your citizens worthless and non-productive, just to buy their votes!! Stupidity has reached new heights!!

Why not letting your favourite candidates know that you will not vote for them, unless they release the information you want to know, and if it is another lie, you will see to it that they are impeached, and spend time in prison, for fraud and conspiracy, and that YOU mean business!
But you won't, because 'politics' has neutered you, and made your electorate impotent!

Congratulations, you've arrived! Need proof? Just read some of your posts!

Enough! This is the longest post that I was n!ever intending to write

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 04:42 PM

I'm sorry I used the term "big boys," it makes me sound like I am in the same boat as LH and his views are naive in the extreme.

Those with the drive to dominate have led the world, since the development of covilization. They, as individuals or group, govern the direction of their fiefdom (country, institution, company, cadre), and in the process gain support and accumulate wealth to support their dominance.
New dominants are always evolving, and may displace old orders, but the most effective at any one time will control their fiefdoms and have strong influence on those in competition.

The do-called freedoms exercised by most of us are only as extensive as those in dominance permit.

(?Guest seems to be promoting the sale of an online blurb of some kind).

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 04:18 PM

When all else fails, blame Richard Nixon. Funny nose, ya know...

From two sources:


"The Constitution requires US currency be minted in gold and silver.

Article 10: 'No state shall emit bills of credit, make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts, coin money.' The Founding Fathers knew that irresponsible govts print paper money, backed by nothing, overspend and devalue the currency, causing 'inflation", and destroying the economy. That has been happening for decades and is accelerating at a tremendous rate NOW.

When the govt began issuing paper money it was backed by real gold and silver.
In 1913, the Federal Reserve System was created by Congress; a private company, owned by member banks, and controlled by the bankers. The bank notes were redeemable for gold/silver.

In 1933, FDR stopped the minting of gold coins and paper money was no longer backed by and redeemable for - gold. You couldn't even own gold, that was illegal. You had to return it to the Treasury for paper money. But 'collectors' could keep their gold coins. But they were no longer usable currency...just like you can't go in a store today and buy bread with a gold coin! Federal Reserve Notes are not backed by, or redeemable for gold/silver.

The mint made silver coins through '64, then reduced the silver content to 50%, and then finally in 1970 silver coins ceased. This was due to inflation (we were warned it could happen by Thomas Jefferson, see first paragraph). In 1971, the govt ceased allowing foreign banks to redeem US dollars for gold. This was when the gold standard ceased.

And here:


"1933 or 1971, depending on how you view what 'gold standard' means...

'A true gold standard came to fruition in 1900 with the passage of the Gold Standard Act. The gold standard effectively came to an end in 1933 when President Franklin D. Roosevelt outlawed private gold ownership (except for the purposes of jewelery). The Bretton Woods System, enacted in 1946 created a system of fixed exchange rates that allowed governments to sell their gold to the United States treasury at the price of $35/ounce. 'The Bretton Woods system ended on August 15, 1971, when President Richard Nixon ended trading of gold at the fixed price of $35/ounce. At that point for the first time in history, formal links between the major world currencies and real commodities were severed'. The gold standard has not been used in any major economy since that time.'"

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,nobody in particular
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 03:48 PM

Never mind, I figured it out. 'LH' is 'Little Hawk'. (Am I correct?). We were both typing at the same time.
Hello. Nice to acquaint myself with someone else into reality!

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,nobody in particular
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 03:43 PM

The first time I was speechless, and could not believe that someone could be so ignorant, as to what is going on. The second time I was just laughing too hard, and hit the wrong key!

Whomever 'Ebbie' is talking about, (LH), is correct. It would serve you well to listen to what he's talking about, because you obviously don't know what you are! You are probably one of those naive loons, intoxicated on your aquired opinions, that believes a political party is going to 'fix it'! and how long have they been around 'fixing' it? Anything getting fixed? Ever asked yourself 'Why?'? Maybe it's just because politics are aimed at keeping you stupid and therefore disabled in addressing the world where the REAL controllers, are operating, what they are doing, and how they are doing it!

I've posted a link TWICE explaining the real problem,

Here, maybe a third time will be the charm!
When you get to the page, click ,'Watch film online'.
Maybe you might wise up.
And 'LH' post back using your real name, I'd like to read more of what you have to say.
Thank You

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 03:41 PM

Ebbie, the Big Boys...meaning the biggest banks and corporations in the western world certainly are trying to control the whole world, simply in order to further enrich themselves and maintain their accustomed lifestyle and privileges...but I frankly think it's beyond their control. I think their plans will fail, not because there is any very organized response against those plans, but because those plans are insane and unworkable in the long run.

I think they will fail just like Imperial Rome failed, by overextending themselves and by losing their ability to manage or pay for the monstrous mess they've created.

This will be tough on just about everybody, but the world will go on. We'll all deal with it as best we can.

Their Ponzi scheme already collapsed in 2008, but they kicked the can a few more yards down the road with the bank bailouts...and ordinary people suffered as a consequence. They delayed the inevitable for a few more years, that's all.

Don't think that these people don't also compete against one another. They do. Occasionally they will even sacrifice one of their own as a gesture to placate an enraged public, but their great money game goes on regardless. It's all about the money. And the money is not real. We just pretend it is, because if we all stopped pretending, no one would know what to do. They had to finally stop pretending in Rome when they ran out of funds to pay their army and to buy resources, and the "barbarians" overran the (Western Roman) Empire. The Eastern Empire, being less vulnerable, struggled on for a few more centuries after that.

It's not all deep, dark, and mysterious...like the Hollywood image you summon up when you use the word "illuminati". It's not one circle of people around one table (at least I don't think so). It's simply a profit-based and completely ammoral business philosophy that rules the world of banks and big business, and does it through fiat money, and it's running out of time.

I suggest you read some articles about how Richard Nixon took the dollar off the gold standard in 1971. It used to be pegged at $35 per ounce of gold. Official value. Ever since 1944. Well, not after 1971. In only a few years gold (now floating freely against fiat dollars) had gone to $850 an ounce. In the last year it went to almost $2,000. Gold is worth exactly what it ever was...just like water or wheat or air are...but the dollar is worth a mere fraction of what it once was, because it's no longer officially backed by or redeemable in a set amount of anything real. It is not real money. It's just a piece of paper from a Federal Reserve printing press.

The richest people at the top of western society depend upon the maintenance of this giant Ponzi scheme of fiat money. That doesn't mean they all planned it once around some table in a hidden fortress somewhere...but it does mean that they have a common interest in maintaining the game as it presently exists and not having it collapse.

And that's all they're doing. It's not so dramatic as the term "illuminati" would suggest. In fact, it's very prosaic. Just plain old self-interest, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 03:00 PM

So, Q, you are agreeing with LH that the 'Big Boys' are controlling the world?

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 01:40 PM

Machiavelli, a few centuries ago, said a few things about how to control politics and business. "The Prince" and similar works are the "bible" for those who have the drive to be king of the castle.

The "big boys" are usually in control, and will remain so because the urge to dominate (survival of the fittest) is part of their genetic code.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 12:37 PM

Little Hawk, I have a question: Let's say that you are correct in saying that 'Boss Hawg', the Illuminati, the big boys, are the final instigators and arbiters of whatever happens in American national politics. But surely that means that they control whatever happens internationally too, because when one looks into how-it-all-began, it is alleged that the Big Boys met and planned it all.

?

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 12:18 PM

Soros in 2016!

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 11:46 AM

That last post was from me, folks. I didn't realize I was logged out when I sent it.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 11:37 AM

Yeah, they probably would do a better job than Congress, Bobert. ;-) But it ain't gonna happen. Nothing any of us recommends on this forum is gonna happen, cos we aren't the people who call the shots. We're just talking here because it helps us let off steam, clarify our own thoughts to ourselves and others, deal with the frustration to some extent, etc. And because we like to talk.

What if someone had asked Marlene Dietrich for a solution to what was happening in Germany in the late 30's? You think she could have provided one? Her personal solution was...get the hell out of Germany while there was still time. And that's what she did.

I think Obama is going to win this coming election pretty handily (and I think Romney would be a bit worse as president than Obama, though that's mere speculation, but it gives me little comfort either way). I also think there's going to be further war...a possible intervention into Syria and far worse than that, a war with Iran. And after that? A larger conflict, quite possibly involving Russia and China and many other nations, because they are going to reach that point where they finally say "No farther!" to American empire expansion. And I expect another financial meltdown even worse than the one we saw in 2008. And God knows what else after that. Maybe another damn false flag attack that makes even 911 look like small change. Anything is possible with the people who are manipulating events in the USA these days.

Marlene Dietrich was able to escape to the USA back in the 30's, because the world wasn't quite so small then as it is now. But where would a person escape to now? South America, maybe? New Zealand? Anyway, Marlene Dietrich was a famous actress with quite a lot of money. Such people can "escape" more easily than most of us can. They have more available options.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 08:45 AM

What America needs is a one year "Truth and Reconciliation" effort to get the country out of its downward spiral... I mean, screw the Congress... Bypass them... Take 100 people randomly from the population, put them up in a conference center and charge them with coming up with a 10 point plan for restoring our nation and our government... As long as those 100 people are randomly chosen they will do a better job than Congress is able to do...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 08:01 AM

Saws, it does indeed boil down to the lesser of evils. Your back and forth with Bobert shows that. He has stated he supports Democrats. You have never stated who you support, so I won't make any guesses in that regard. However, the lesser of evils in this election IS the Democrats.

No doubt that Obama will win, but what then? We gonna get another 9/11 close to election time? If indeed The Twin Towers was solely a foreign attack on the US--something I doubt very much--then the attackers have forced the US to trade freedom for 'security', and lord knows you have lots of security: DHS, ICE, FEMA, FBI, CIA, NSA, DIA, et.al. If the attacks on 9/11 were domestic (read government led), then again you traded freedom for security. If the attacks were foreign with government collusion, then once again again you traded freedom for security. No matter what it was, your trade-off has resulted in loss of freedoms and not one whole helluvalot of security. You are fast becoming a police state. I expect if Americans do not wake up to what is happening in front of your faces, you'll have a rude surprise in the near future when people with guns arrive at your house and take you away for 're-education'. And all these bullshit arguments will have been for naught, because as LH pointed out, whether you're the horse on the left or the horse on the right, you're both pulling the rich man's wagon.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 07:25 AM

So the Solution is _______________________________

It all boils down to choosing the lesser of two weevils.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 01:36 AM

Sawzaw...Bobert may be under the false impression that only the Republicans are allied with the corrupt forces he calls "Boss Hawg" (meaning the rich corporate elite)...and that the Democrats are not, but most of the world outside the borders of the USA knows perfectly well that your rich corporate elites fund and control BOTH of those parties AND determine your foreign and domestic policy no matter which one gets elected.

Why would anyone be surprised that they funded Obama in 2008?????    They fund all of your presidential candidates, and the one who appears most handy to market and elect at any given time is the one who gets the largest share of their funding...and the one who then wins the election.

In 2008, that was Obama. In another election year, it may be a Republican. Or it may not. They'll happily back either horse, because both horses work for them.

Now, look...Bush and Cheney did a marvelous job for your corporates and your military-industrial establishment in the 8 years Bush was in office. They helped make the richest people richer and they royally screwed everyone else. But by 2008 their image was totally wrecked in the eyes of both the world and the American public. They had by that time shown their true colors in a way that was plainly obvious to most people, and their time was up. They had made the Republicans virtually unelectable (for the moment), and the financial crisis put the final nail in the Republican coffin...for the moment.

So it was time for the rich elites to bring forth a completely different looking alternative from the Democrats...Obama...to restore hope and enthusiasm to a weary and very disillusioned electorate. Very brief hope and enthusiasm! But that's all that is needed to win an election...a brief flush of new hope and enthusiasm.

Boss Hawg advanced a new servant in the form of Obama...got him elected brilliantly by making everyone think he represented "change"!

He did not represent change. He just looked like he repesented change. What he truly represented was lots more of the same. More war. More collusion with bankers and corporates. More assaults on your civil rights.

Bush gave you the Patriot Act. Obama has given the the NDAA...even worse than the Patriot Act. Bush was a wolf in Republican clothing. Obama is a wolf in Democratic clothing. And they both work for the very same interests.

Your endless partisan squabbling with Bobert is hilarious....and sad...because neither one of you can see outside the ancient cage of your 2-party divide. You're like a couple of Russian Communists fighting over whether to support Andropov or Brezhnev or Chernenko...while never questioning the basic rottenness of the political/military system that controls ALL of them.

And you just don't get it. You're trapped in your old mythology. You think it'll just be okay if YOUR party wins and the other one loses. It won't be okay, because they both sold out a long time ago. They're both run by liars, bankers, the big corporations, and the Pentagon and the weapons industries, and the only reason you've even got 2 parties anymore is so they can control you by playing off the supporters of one party against the supporters of the other.

That's the game. They win...you lose...every time. Your arguments with Bobert are an exercise in futility for both you and him. As are your elections. Nothing could make your bosses happier than keeping you, the little people, endlessly arguing with each other over partisan loyalties....while they walk off with the great prize: the power to rule over all of you. "Divide and Conquer" is their mantra, and it works every time.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 11:49 PM

Do the 4 richest people in the US deserve their wealth? Seems like a simple yes or no question.

Boss Hogg's $$$ went mostly to Obama in 2008. What happened? He has done such a lovely job.

Yer doin' a heckuva job there Barry.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 11:28 AM

Yeah, brucie... The working class's standard of living is no better today than it was in 1982... I'm not going to blame it all on the union busting in which various levels of government have be engaged but that's the centerpiece of Boss Hog's campaign to write all the rules himself...

Also, during this 3 decade period the quality of life has deteriorated and the good rankings in the world slipped downward with the bad one gaining...

What is needed is to get Boss Hog's $$$ out of politics and that's just for starters... That would be a major step in better legislation that is beneficial for the enitre country rather than just management and the rich...

B~