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BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference?
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: GUEST,BO Plenty Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:47 PM Take those Kennedys with you please. BO |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Don Firth Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:40 PM Well, GUEST,Joe, you have a point, and you certainly make an attractive case. My great-grandfather came to the Pacific Northwest from Orkney with the Hudson's Bay Company in the 1850s. I've always wanted to see the British Isles in general, and my wife gets positively misty-eyed at the idea. I get the impression from occasional travel programs on TV that there are pubs all over Ireland where you can get together with other musicians and play 'til your fingers drop off. Am I depressed or angry about the outcome of the election? No. Just kind of weary. I feel that this country is headed in a dangerous direction. Corporation control, dismantling of social programs, imperial ambitions, alienation from the rest of the world. . . . After the past four years of obvious lies and deception, how half of the country can keep this administration in office is beyond me. I wish someone could explain to me just what the hell they mean by "traditional moral values." Invading people's bedrooms and telling them what they can and cannot do? Actually, my tendency is to blame the Democratic Party for not giving the electorate a clear and consistent alternative. Emigrate? I'm thinking about it. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: GUEST,Joe Date: 03 Nov 04 - 10:38 AM Message to Don Firth - been reading your posts, and my heart goes out to you mate. My advice to you is don't try to fight it 'cause it's never going to happen. Your country is a lost cause. Emigrate while you still have your health. Ireland is the place to be - Why? The people The music The food The black gold The air The scenery Join all those Irish-Americans who have already woken up to the realization that the land of milk and honey their fore-fathers emigrated to was just a poisoned chalice - they got wise, and went back home. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: GUEST,Joe Date: 03 Nov 04 - 10:12 AM Bush............ again!!!!! As my old pappy used to say (to many crazy events): "It can only happen in America son" Yea - but you sorta hope one day the US will come to it's senses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: GUEST,BO Plenty Date: 02 Nov 04 - 06:48 PM Amos: another brick in the wall. We don't need no education We don't need no thought control No dark sarcasm in the classroom Teacher, leave those kids alone Hey, Teacher, leave those kids alone! All in all it's just another brick in the wall All in all you're just another brick in the wall BO |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: akenaton Date: 02 Nov 04 - 05:16 PM What a great day for the USA.. Fuck Bush and Kerry.....Don and Marty Are re-united |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Once Famous Date: 02 Nov 04 - 05:09 PM OK, Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Don Firth Date: 02 Nov 04 - 04:58 PM Okay, Ake. No sweat. Here's to exchange of ideas. We all learn that way. But Marty, your assessment of me is way off base. I'll give you .003 nano-give-a-shits on this one. I'm the way I am because I'm an avid reader, I've lived a bit, and I'm interested in the way the world is going, not just for myself, but for others, including my progeny and, for that matter, yours. I'm quite happy with the way my life has gone and the way it's going now. Me? A loser? Not hardly. I've done most of the things that I really want to do, but rather than simply playing out my days, I'm still leading a busy life, doing the things I enjoy doing, especially now that I'm retired. Rather than being old and feeble as you like to characterize me, I'm quite healthy, and if family longevity has anything to do with it, I have many years to go yet. I enjoy having enough miles on my clock to be able to look at the world with a little perspective. "Preaching" on an internet site, as you call it, is merely taking part in a legitimate exchange of ideas. I read far more than I write. And my time on the internet (and not just on Mudcat) occupies only a small part of my busy life. By the way, I didn't say you're pathetic, you just did. And I'm not ridiculing anyone who hasn't already amply rendered himself ridiculous. Actually, Marty, I feel a bit sorry for you. I don't have to get my jollies by behaving like a jerk, but that seems to be your main recreation most of the time that you're logged on. Maybe we should confine our exchanges to the music threads. We do seem to get along fairly well up there. And GUEST, you characterize my position (and anyone else with whom you disagree) as "entrenched." Well, yes, I've thought about it a great deal, and I do think I'm right. That's why I voted the way that I did. If that makes me "entrenched," then so be it. But just to make it clear, it's obvious that you're just as "entrenched" as I am. Isn't it possible to disagree with me—and others—without being insulting about it? And I'm hardly carrying out "cyber-pogroms." Actually, considering the number of threads you've started, sometimes several a day, all on the same basic theme ("Don't be a stupid two-party clone! Vote for Nader! Anybody who doesn't is a brainwashed idiot!"), and the way you respond to anyone who doesn't buy your viewpoint without question, I'd say that you are the one who is the main aggressor here. But if voting for Nader is what you really feel is the right thing to do, then I'm certainly not going to send any storm troopers to stop you, even if I could. "Cyber-pogrom?" From Merriam-Webster online:That's a little over the top, don't you think? Go vote. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: akenaton Date: 02 Nov 04 - 04:16 PM Don...I am the one who should apologise to both yourself and Martin. It was crass of me to bring Martins name into our disagreement. I did enjoy the exchange of views and hope for further disagreements in the future. Best Wishes Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: GUEST Date: 02 Nov 04 - 03:59 PM "That was what I was referring to when I asked what your solution is: what would you suggest be done today? I think that's a reasonable question to ask.' It is a reasonable question to ask, Don. The problem is your entrenched position that only your position is the right position on what we should do today. I'm off to do what I have intended to do for some today: vote for serious political change by voting for Ralph Nader. And as to my decision of what to do today, I know you not only disagree Don, but up to this point you haven't even been willing to accept that there may be more than just one thing to do that would be "right" in the current political climate. In other words, you could agree to disagree, instead of carrying out cyber-pogroms against those who won't vote for Kerry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Once Famous Date: 02 Nov 04 - 03:26 PM Personally, Don I think that you are the way you are because you are a mainstream loser and just overall an unhappy person who sadly is kind of just playing out his days by preaching on an internet site like this to anyone that will listen. I'm pathetic? Don, take a look at yourself before you ridicule others. I take a lot of things in life seriously. One that I don't, is having philosophical hard-ons about the world according to myself, especially here. thanks for commenting positively on my music related posts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Don Firth Date: 02 Nov 04 - 03:09 PM akenaton, my apologies for my outburst in my last post of 01 Nov 04 - 09:11 PM. But you must be aware that calling me obtuse is not exactly a compliment, and it was partially precipitated by your remark about agreeing with Martin Gibson's assessment of me. As far as Marty is concerned, he does post an occasional rational comment on a music thread now and then, but beyond that, if I value his opinions at all, it could only be measured by a device sufficiently sensitive to be calibrated in nano-give-a-shits. As to our misunderstanding (and I think that's what it is) I believe that we are both on the same side, but somehow talking past each other. I'm hardly an "old lefty," but on a few occasions I've come up against the inequities of the Capitalist system (me versus the company) and generally lost. At one time, I regarded myself as fairly conservative, but some acquaintance with the real world changed all that. I won't go into the details here, but although I don't regard myself as a socialist either, I'm certainly not frightened by the word—or the actuality. There are a number of countries in which the quality of life of the entire population is superior to that in the United States (contrary to the belief of most Americans, especially those who haven't traveled much), and if you mention this to some Americans, their outraged response is "But they're Socialists!" That's their main objection. That, and "They pay higher taxes!" [Yes, but look what you get for those taxes!] Capitalism has produced many benefits, but unregulated Capitalism can be as much of an evil as fascism. In fact, unregulated Capitalism will inevitably lead to either fascism a sort of neo-feudalism. We're almost there now. We may even be there now. I've been involved politically one way or another since the McCarthy era in the early Fifties. I was a charter member of a folklore society organized in the early Fifties. We had been operating for a year when, in 1954, we sponsored a concert by Pete Seeger, who was under investigation by the House Un-American Activities Committee. We weren't thinking of politics at all, we just wanted to hear Seeger and have a chance to meet him. But times were so tense that few people wanted to be associated with an organization that could be viewed with suspicion because of a performer it chose to sponsor. Within two days after the concert, our membership shrank from well over a hundred to less than a dozen. That's when I first started taking a serious interest in politics. To make my position clear, I know that, in the United States, any kind of social change to a more progressive society will take time, quite probably a long time, unfortunately. It seems to go by fits and starts. Again and again, we make a little progress, then we fall back. It has been and will continue to be a long, hard struggle. Since the election of Ronald Reagan, the United States has been in a backward trend (alleviated somewhat during the tenure of Clinton). Reagan's stated mission was to reverse the progressive legislation Franklin D. Roosevelt managed to get passed in the Thirties and Forties, which was further supplemented during the Kennedy and Johnson administrations (civil rights, Medicare, a number of other things). Bush has taken up Reagan's banner with a vengeance and is determined to end such things as the Securities and Exchange Commission (oversight and control of stock market scams like Enron), the Federal Communications Commission (regulation and preservation of the public service use of communications technology), all environmental and social welfare programs, and even Social Security, one of the most successful and essential programs instituted during the Roosevelt administration. He has also taken on board the neo-conservatives' ideology of maintaining the United States present position as the world's only superpower and enhancing it, starting by gaining geopolitical control of the energy reserves of the Middle East. As long as the world is dependent on oil, the hand on the tap wields a huge amount of power. This latter, incidentally, is not some crackpot conspiracy theory on my part. It is clearly enunciated in their web site, and several members of the PNAC are in the top, most influential levels of the Bush administration. If Kerry wins, it will remove these people from their current positions of influence. This is why it is particularly important to do everything one can to see that Bush is defeated, even if it means replacing him with a candidate who is less than ideal. This, as I have said before, I regard as damage control. If your house is on fire, first, put out the fire! Then, you have some time to think about repairing and remodeling. It's a wizened old cliché that "the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step," but if you're going to make that journey at all, you can't just sit back and hope that someday you'll reach your destination. You'll never get there if you don't take that step. And another, and another. Where the analogy falls down is that, in our current political situation, if you don't take today's step today, you'll slide backwards. That was what I was referring to when I asked what your solution is: what would you suggest be done today? I think that's a reasonable question to ask. In any case, the election is in progress and we'll know shortly what the outcome is. But no matter what that outcome, if we are ever to see a truly civilized society in this country, I think it's relevant now to consider what our next steps should be. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:21 PM Let's not forget about the 527's (like Moveon.org) that are spending 6 times as much on Democrats as they are on Republicans. George Soros and another guy (don't remember name) have each spent over 23 million dollars on the democratic 527's. (The largest reublican giver was in the 4 million range.) Does that bother any of you? Two guys giving 50 million dollars to the campaign and other of them not even an American. How much power do they control. I am sure glad we passed McCain Feingold that sovled all of these problems. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Amos Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:03 PM Dear Guest: Arm waving invective like yours does not constitute rational proposals for improvement, and I ma sorry to say I do not recall such recommendations from you. If there were buried in other sections of your reflux diatribes, I may have overlooked them. I think some of them are great ideas, generally and would like to hear the details, presented coherently. As for your analysis of people, I think it is uncharitable and biased. I am white and middle-class, true, but the rest of your analsyis is way behind the foul line. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: GUEST Date: 02 Nov 04 - 11:59 AM akenaton, trying to hold a meaningful discussion with the Brownshirts for Kerry is the equivalent of arguing with a brick wall. I have made many suggestions for reforms that would result in real, meaningful change (like reforms to the electoral system; true campaign finance reform and non-partisan regulation of campaign donations, financing, and spending; term limits for Congress; limiting the legal and political power of corporations, especially in the arena of lobbying by banning the "revolving door" altogether) only to be met with "that will never happen" or "idealism is nice, but impractical in this election" or some such crap. In other words, these are comfortable middle class American white men who like spouting off as armchair political activists, who think the American status quo just fine, and will crush everyone else's right to critisize that status quo, much less dissent from the prevailing opinions of the political establishment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Amos Date: 02 Nov 04 - 10:10 AM LEt's see. Faces the actual enemy rather than some imaginary one: Bush 0, Kerry 10. Builds economies up rather than tearing them down: Bush 0, Kerry 2. Speaks English and articulates thoughts well: Bush 0, Kerry 8. Thinks clearly in the first place: Bush 0, Kerry 8. Brave enough to change his mind given new information: Bush 0, Kerry 9. Need I go on? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: GUEST,Norton1 Date: 02 Nov 04 - 09:57 AM "Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheyney, Condoleeza" I do agree - I think Bush has done a fair job - but the folks he has hired suck the big one. Virus protection business is good Martin Gibson - Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: GUEST,Boab Date: 02 Nov 04 - 04:57 AM Difference between Bush and Kerry? Not nearly enough. But what a relief to the world and a revival of hope there will be if Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheyney, Condoleeza and all the other puppeteers get the order of the boot! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Don Firth Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:11 PM Thanks, akenaton. I know there is no quick, easy solution. That's what I've beeb saying all along!! Who's being obtuse now? And as far as your last paragraph is concerned, that ends the discussion. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: GUEST,Geezer Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:46 PM Martin You are Cool. Geezer |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: akenaton Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:01 PM Don... why are you so obtuse? I have said twice already that there is no quick easy solution. Just a slow sea change in peoples perception. Why is it always the quick fix? My point is that continued support for a discredited status quo is counter productive. How do you answer my point that after 40 yrs of attempted reform of this system, we are further away from real freedom or real democracy. Im beginning to think that Martin Gibson has a better understanding of the real Don Firth than I do |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Don Firth Date: 01 Nov 04 - 07:24 PM akenaton, I don't give a damn about "point scoring" as you seem to think. Once again, you've got me wrong. There is no misrepresentation that I can see. The only alternative that I can see from what you have said is to allow things to get so bad that the results will be either total submission or bloody revolution. I've been through this same discussion many times before. Back in the Sixties. And I'm not hearing anything different now. If I am mistaken, then what is your solution? Neither you nor GUEST have said, except in the vaguest of terms. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: akenaton Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:25 PM Don ...That misrepresentation is disgraceful. You take one small piece from one of my posts,and use it to undermine everything that GUEST and I have been saying. Will you never get over this childish point scoring and try to build a meaningful discussion. Do you really think that anything we say to one another will affect the result of your precious election |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Don Firth Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:05 PM But seriously, folks. I take it that akenaton's and GUEST's "solution" is to accelerate the internal corruption until the United States crumbles like the Roman Empire. "Things have got to get worse before they'll get better," is that it? And in the meantime, how many more wars are going to be fought? And how many people are going die? And how many are going to wind up, as I mentioned above, behind barbed wire? That's a great route to improvement that you guys have laid out. No, thanks! By the way, you're making a helluva lot of assumptions about what people you disagree with believe. That's something else you're wrong about. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Don Firth Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:56 PM Looks like there's a turd in the punchbowl, folks. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: akenaton Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:32 PM And I must have been wrong about your jokes ....Evertbodys fucked off..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Once Famous Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:31 PM Nah, I'm on a roll. Like a corned beef sandwich. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: akenaton Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:30 PM Steady on Martin ....You'll burn yourself out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Once Famous Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:24 PM Hey Guest, Norton1, how's the virus protection business? Guest, Trojan 4X just told me the STD protection business was flacid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: GUEST,Norton1 Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:16 PM No difference that I can see. I'm writing my wife's name in again. She's the only person I know with enough integrity to be different than our choices are in that position. Have not seen the movie Martin Gibson - but will - it looks like it will be awesome. I changed my clocks - but went the wrong way - readjusted them just in the nick of time. I'd just as soon they leave the darned things alone - Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Once Famous Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:14 PM Depends on my mood, ake Also, depends on if Amos is wearing his Depends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: akenaton Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:07 PM Martin...I think you've one hell of a sense of humour... Think of the time you wasted being Mr Nasty,when you could have been crackin jokes..Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: GUEST Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:07 PM Again Amos, you are being a hypocrite. If corporate donations to Kerry don't matter (especially if they are the same corporations donating to Bush), then why do the corporate donations to Bush/Cheney matter? Sorry, you don't get it both ways... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Once Famous Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM I love these kind of threads. Did you all remember to adjust your clocks? What a drag to come home from work and it's totally dark? Bummer, isn't it? Anyone see the new Ray Charles movie yet? Man, that Jamie foxx got it down! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Amos Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM Wrong answer. The equation for the large companies is "we want influence from whoever wins". To those concerned with policy, programs and the public domain, this equation will not serve and that because it ignores the vital differences between Kerry and Bush. The corporations have one interest -- their own profit. THe people have many, including life and death, issues which corporations usually ignore. The differences are VITAL, not trivial. To trivialize them is a disservice to your fellows. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Amos Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:54 PM It doesn't matter who wins, and it doesn't matter who loses the horserace. Either way, global corporate capitalists will be in the White House and in control of Congress. I consider this statement a profundly apathetic one. In addition, you are dealing with voting for hypotheticals -- Nader -- on principal. Well, good on ya. But in doing so you are declining an oppportunity to influence real events. I agree with you, believe it or not, that gloabal corporate forces are a serious risk if they are allowed to run rampant in the WHite House as they do now. I do not share your belief that Kerry will bring some dark bond into the WHite House by means iof which he will be controlled by global corporations. The fact that they contribute to campaigns does not mean that the campaign's candidate is beholden. In Bush's case he has demonstrated his carnal alliance with the company men, as has the Veep. KErry's position will be better. How much remains to be seen. Stand back and let the boy run, goddamit!! :D A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: akenaton Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:49 PM Don ...That was a good post, and heartfelt Im sure, but you still seem to believe that Capitalism can be reformed or will evolve through the current political system. It just wont work. How many years have we been working to reform the system?....In my case over 40 yrs,and although were slightly better off financially, we have almost reverted to slavery to pay for it. Our basic freedoms have also been vastly curtailed. Theres good and bad in everything that happens to us, and pehaps we need a further dose of the neo cons to ensure a more caring future,or to raise the population from its condition of apathy, to one of fury and righteous disgust....Who Knows, but while the fortunate few with brains and the will to use them continue to bolster up this gigantic con, peace love and happiness will remain a pipe dream ....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: GUEST Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:43 PM Amos, I'm not calling all Kerry supporters brownshirts. Just the Kerry supporters who are acting like brownshirts with their bullying and intimidation tactics. Like you, for instance. Why is it that those of us who actually ARE making solid, reasonable arguments for NOT supporting the status quo are being snidely dismissed as "idealistic" as if that were a dirty word? If none of the above is the truly the best choice for you, then why isn't that the choice you are making? Refusing to vote may well be EXACTLY how we end up changing the system. No one has a crystal ball that foretells the future of the US, so why does the Kerry faction keep vehemently insisting they voting for Kerry is the one and only, true, right way to vote if you have the nation and world's best interests, now and in the future, in mind? A vote for Kerry is a vote for Citigroup, UBS Financial Services, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley. A vote for Nader is a vote for the future, and for the fight AGAINST the candidates bankrolled by Citigroup, UBS Financial Services, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley. Jack, you dismissed this fact with a cavalier "those corporations are just hedging their bets". Well, duh! As are you, with your blind, uncritical, deluded support of the corporate candidate of your choice. Kerry and Bush are the corporate candidate. It doesn't matter who wins, and it doesn't matter who loses the horserace. Either way, global corporate capitalists will be in the White House and in control of Congress. Because Kerry and Bush supporters put them there. Not Nader voters, or Green voters, or Libertarian voters or Reform Party voters. Kerry and Bush voters. You are voting to maintain the status quo. And in this day and age, you couldn't waste your vote more than that. Unless of course, the status quo is just the way you like it. Which is what I've decided about the Brownshirts for Kerry. They really DO support that corporate puppet, the same way the Brownshirts for Bush support their corporate puppet. The Don Firths and Jack the Sailors of this world aren't progressives OR liberals. They are conservative, my party right or wrong, have a little want a little more Republicrats. They don't give a shit about Iraq, about health care reform, about the working poor, just like their candidate doesn't. Just like Kerry will say anything to get elected, the Brownshirts for Kerry will say anything to get Kerry elected. They are peas in a pod, and I don't think they'll be on my side of the fence when the revolution finally does commence. Which most certainly won't be this election year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Don Firth Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:19 PM Very idealistic, akenaton. But you are not going to change the system by disenfranchising yourself. Of the candidates available in this election, my real choice is "None of the above. If God had wanted us to vote, He would have given us some candidates." But of those available, Kerry is the most "progressive" candidate who actually stands a chance. Snort if you want, but if you can't see a substantial difference between Kerry and Bush, you're just not paying attention. Kerry is certainly more progressive than Bush, even if he isn't progressive enough to please either you or GUEST. Or me, for that matter. If Bush gets back in, neither you nor me nor no one else is going to have a snowball's chance in hell of swinging this country back from an even more severe hurtle to the Right than what we've seen since Reagan was elected. If Bush gets in for another four years, it will only reinforce his (and many of his supporters') belief that God has ordained him to be president. This accounts for his arrogant belief that he's infallible and his refusal to acknowledge the facts if reality. "If the policy doesn't fit the facts, change the facts!" And if you add a "mandate" from the voters, he'll think he has confirmation of his ordination, and will in all likelihood take his ideas (and his supporters') and run berserk with them. Think for a moment about what is then going to happen to the U. S. foreign policy, the environment, what's left of civil liberties and social safety-net programs, and God only knows what else. If what Bush and his supporters want is followed to its logical (!?) conclusion, what I see in the future is a dictatorship composed of an amalgam of fascism (where the corporations and the government are one and the same, which is pretty damned close to what we have right now) and an American Taliban (wherein the "morals" of the religious Right have the force of law). Kerry is the only viable alternative. He's not ideal by any means, but he does stand a chance of winning, even if by a narrow margin, and if he does win, he'll at least slow down the plunge into the abyss. This will buy some time, which we badly need about now. Throwing away your vote on a non-viable third-party candidate, even if that candidate mirrors your philosophy in every detail, may make you feel morally proud of yourself, but being able to feel smug about not compromising your principles will be damned cold comfort if, after working or demonstrating for a progressive cause, you suddenly find yourself peering out through barbed wire. "But this is America! It can't happen here!" Oh, yeah? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: akenaton Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:43 PM Nothing apathetic about my ideas for the future Amos. ButGuests ideas on building a power base outwith the electoral system based on an evangelical formula seems a good start. The change must have a "spiritual" dimension as you say,but the good old US of A, materialistic, make good,phony freedom ideology has been discredited all over the world. You are quite correct we can still lead ,but by taking the hands of our brothers...not the whip of the masters....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Amos Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:31 PM AKe: I don't what if any secret high powermongers control the polls and the putcome of elections. I know that an infectious belief in the US can take off like grassfire and change the face of politics overnight, regardless of any effort on the part of power mongers to stop it. I know that the brightest and best legacy our predecessors here have left us is the determination to exercise our own sovereignty, and a refusal to be terrorized from without or from within. I'm not willing to give up my franchise, or drift into fearful, terrorized apathy, just because of the bogeymen at the top. If you have some practical suggestions, let's hear what they are. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Amos Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:24 PM Guest: Your insistence that those who support Kerry are brownshirts -- a term inextricably associated with the strongarm tactics of Hitler in the formative years of the Third Reich -- is insulting, and uncivilized in the extre, not supported by actual data, histrionic and hysterical, ill-founded, ungracious, rude and offensive. It has no basis in truth, and makes you sound like some kind of manic freak. I am sure you ar enot such. But please stop using these offensive labels. I am sorry that others do not all agree with your way of seeing and evaluating things. But you're going to have to get used to the fact that that's the way it works. Panicky arm-waving and hysterical generalizations won't get you anywhere. Neither will calling people vile names because they don't see things your way. Please knock it off. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: akenaton Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:16 PM Don....You and I both know that there is no ready made,instant realistic plan available to change this system. No sensible person believes that real change can be achieved overnight or even in our lifetime,...most of us are over 50. But intelligent people like yourself and others on this forum, should be the vanguard for change and new ideas,like those repeated again and again by Guest and a very few others. I dont think for a minute that any of the major parties have any committment to real change ,and it will take years of patient discussion to win peoples hearts and minds. Environmental issues will to my mind play a huge part in effecting this change. In the short term, the important thing is not to support the status quo....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: GUEST Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:21 PM Nader also has accepted money from Democrats. And Libertarians. And Greens. And the Reform Party. He has taken money from a lot of sources the same Republican sources Kerry has taken money from. But since Nader isn't a Republican, it is idiotic to suggest that Nader taking money from Republicans is some litmus test of his principles. Especially when Kerry has taken MILLIONS of dollars from Republican sources, including 4 of Bush's top 10 donors. My definition of insanity is that you keep repeating the same behavior over and over but expect different results. That's the problem with the Brownshirts for Kerry position. They claim to be voting for change, when all they are doing is repeating the mistakes of 2000, of 1996, of 1992, of 1988...voting for the "lesser of two evils" which is defined as the guy running for the party you don't support. The majority of Americans DO NOT SUPPORT THE DEMOCRATIC OR REPUBLICAN PARTY. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:13 PM Akenaton, My point is that Nader is not the man of principle that GUEST makes him out to be. Nader has taken help from the Republican Party. Should he really be put on the ballots in states where he cannot get enough support from "progressives" to get on the Ballot? He says he is running to point out flaws in the system, and to give what he says is a signifucant part of the electorate a "voice". If he can't get a couple of thousand people to sign a petition for him without Republican help, he speaking for George W Bush as much as himself. Since he is taking strategic help form the GOP to get on the ballot, with the GOP supporting him to make trouble for Kerry, he is as big a sellout as any politician. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Don Firth Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:06 PM So, akenaton, what is your solution? I've already voted, but--theoretically--how should I have voted? How would you change "the System?" For a refreshing change, rather than pointing with alarm and calling people names, let's hear a rational, realistic plan. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: akenaton Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:01 PM Amos... I take your point, but surely you can see that its "the system" which produces evil regimes like that of George Bush,and even if Kerry was to carry the day, and attempted to bring forward a "progressive" agenda,how long would it be before the real power behind American politics engineered his removal. Kerry would most likely be a good politician and do the bidding of the power brokers. So you see there are no winning bets in this race,at least not for the ordinary people Even on Mudcat ,idealism, the thing that motivated us all in our youth,is becomming a dirty word...Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: akenaton Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:50 PM Amos... I take your point, but surely you can see that its "the system" which produces evil regimes like that of George Bush,and even if Kerry was to carry the day, and attempted to bring forward a "progressive" agenda,how long would it be before the real power behind American politics engineered his removal. Kerry would most likely be a good politician and do the bidding of the power brokers. So you see there are no winning bets in this race,at least not for the ordinary people Even on Mudcat ,idealism, the thing that motivated us all in our youth,is becomming a dirty word...Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: Amos Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:31 PM WHich Guest is that, Ake? I am opposed to vague generalizations and sacrificing the possible good for the improbably idealistic. We have one guest who comes here often and waves his arms with artful compulsion, but who does not offer practical steps of any merit. That's IMHO. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush vs Kerry: What Difference? From: akenaton Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:27 PM extremely worrying to see posters of the stature of Don Frirth ,Amos, Jack the Sailor,Ron Davies, lining up against GUEST and still treating this charade as if it is a race with a winner and a loser. Guest is consistent in his arguments, which have always vision and logic. I simply cannot understand the animosity shown to him on this forum,which I believed to be left of centre. Perhaps you are all too entrenched in the ways of the "old left"to want to see another course towards the same goal...Ake |
