BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:04 PM

Israel settles about 560,000 of the Arab Jews.

I wonder if that number includes the many who were sold to people in other countries after they were brought to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:16 PM

Bobert, Using the PALESTINIAN sources...



The number of Arabs residing in Palestine as citizens in 1948 and consequently the number of refugees, is a matter of controversy.
McCarthy (article in Encyclopedia of the Palestinians, Philip Mattar Ed. posted at the Palestine Remembered Web site ) states the following:
Of the 1,358,000 Palestinian Arab citizens of Palestine in 1948, approximately 873;600 resided within what would become the Israeli borders, 485,000 without. The Israelis recorded 156,000 non-Jews in 1948, a number that included perhaps 1,000 non-Arabs, leaving 155,000 Palestinians in Israel. This means that 718,000 Palestinians either were refugees or died during the war. Note that this number depends on the somewhat imprecise estimation of the numbers who lived on both sides of the border before the war, and so should be taken as a mean estimate. However, statistically it cannot be wrong by more than 5 to 10 percent (for other analyses, see Khalidi, 1992; Bachi, 1977).
The above estimates which according to McCarthy "cannot be wrong by more than 5 to 10 percent" probably overestimate the population within the area of Israel by about 20% as we shall see. The 156,000 "non-Jews" recorded by the Israelis included about 15,000 Druze. McCarthy counts these apparently in all statistics though he writes:
" all non-citizens, as well as non-Druze listed along with the Druze under the category "Other" in the British data, should be excluded."
If he did not count the Druze, then how else could he report 860,000 Arabs in 1931, when the census reported less than 849,000? The extra 10,000 Druze seem to make up the discrepancy.
The above numbers are based on the assumption of McCarthy that the Mandate figures for mortality and fertility were wrong. So he has corrected by "fudge factors." If indeed the mandate numbers for fertility and mortality were wrong, the numbers found in the Census of 1931 would have been very different from the estimates given in previous years. They were not.
A confusion has arisen about the number of refugees originally reported by the UN. Some Zionists cite a figure as low as 472,000. That number is an interim estimate, not a final figure. It comes from a progress report by UN Mediator Ralph Bunche, published Oct. 18, 1948.
The number 726,000 comes from an economic survey final report published Dec. 28, 1949, by the UN Conciliation Commission. The document is available in PDF format. That is the figure McCarthy used. But In its report A/1367/Rev.1, dated Oct. 23, 1950, the U.N. Conciliation Commission revised the 726,000 estimate down to 711,000. It stated:
15. The estimate of the statistical expert, which the Committee believes to be as accurate as circumstances permit, indicates that the refugees from Israel-controlled territory amount to approximately 711,000. The fact that there is a higher number of relief recipients appears to be due among other things to duplication of ration cards, addition of persons who have been displaced from areas other than Israel-held areas and of persons who, although not displaced, are destitute.
In fact, there was probably no way to determine precisely how many refugees there were for the reasons cited above, and because of addition of non-Palestinian Arabs who where also destitute and "displaced from areas other than Israel held areas" (or not displaced at all) or persons who "although not displaced, are destitute." There is always a large supply of persons who are destitute in this part of the world, but that is not related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.




PLEASE NOTE ( emphasis, not shouting:)
Of the 1,358,000 Palestinian Arab citizens of Palestine in 1948, approximately 873;600 resided within what would become the Israeli borders, 485,000 without. The Israelis recorded 156,000 non-Jews in 1948, a number that included perhaps 1,000 non-Arabs, leaving 155,000 Palestinians in Israel. This means that 718,000 Palestinians either were refugees or died during the war. Note that this number depends on the somewhat imprecise estimation of the numbers who lived on both sides of the border before the war, and so should be taken as a mean estimate.

So your WAG of 4 million is a lot like your other statistics- without merit. THREE times as many as the ENTIRE non-Jewish population??? Or are you saying the other ARAB nations sent a few more along, just to keep them company?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:24 PM

"in 1948 some 4,000,000 Palestians were uprooted from their homes"


Bobert, I keep telling you that the wholesale exagerations that you insist on performing to any statistic you see do more to hurt your viewpoint than help.

The best figures on PERMANENT refugess that I have seen are

648,000 Palestinian Moslims displaced from Israel
820,000 Arab Jews displaced from the Arab nations

In both sets, the individuals chose to leave for fear of their lives. Israel settles about 560,000 of the Arab Jews. Nobody settled the Palestinian Moslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bankley
Date: 17 May 08 - 12:02 PM

"Ali was the 7th son of a 7th sun
grew up in Gaza throwing rocks and stones at the tanks that come
ain't much to do around there, just a game children play
there's something about living in fear all your life
that makes you hard that way
He answered when he got the call
strapped himself in death and then he praised Allah
A fat man in a new Mercedes drove him to the door
He's just another poor boy off to fight a rich man's war"

3rd Verse/ Rich Man's War/ Steve Earle



..... I brought some Hamas home for lunch....er..I mean hummus

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Bobert
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:49 AM

You know, I have a problem with anyone's thinking that all people in a certain region think exactly alike... I mean, when I read stuff like "what the Palestinians are themselves saying" it gives the wrong impression that every last Palestian on Earth is saying... I believe it would be more accurate to use terms like "what many Palestianians' are saying...

This is the problem when people see things as either "black or white" and it is an important distinction that needs to be made if we are going to make any progress in changing a dogmatic and outdated foriegn policy into a pragmatic and workable one...

We collectively need to stop trying to pigeon-hole people based on where they live or their national creed...

BTW, what cannot be argued is that in 1948 some 4,000,000 Palestians were uprooted from their homes and pushed into refugee camps... We need to keep this *fact* in our thoughts as we try look for ways to find an equitable settlement of the Middle East situation...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 08 - 02:08 AM

I'm curious to know what they're teaching in Israeli schools to produce kids like these...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YMTbKxB1mk&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSAvaYY-y7Q&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EUUrE8Lm14&NR=1


The children are about halfway through this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kem1ajIKv1k&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:21 PM

No, I'm not worried about that. Hamas has policies that are not possible to defend. What is wrong, however, is for you to conflate Hamas with "the Palestinian people". There are more Palestinians who are being governed by Fatah right now than there are being governed by Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:17 PM

This thread is in response to your claim that it is official Israeli policy to start wars to take land.

Are you worried about people hearing Hamas/Palestinian GOVERNMENT policies?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:13 PM

Yet you post quotes from individuals and claim them as Israeli policy.

I talk about Israeli government policy. Talking about the Israeli government is not the same thing, by any stretch of the imagination, as talking about "the Jews". And I know you know this because if I were to try to conflate the two, you and a whole host of other people would call me anti-Semitic. It's no less racist to conflate the policies of Hamas with "the Palestinians".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:06 PM

Yeah, Hamas (the present government of Gaza) and the Israelis are endlessly involved in retaliatory acts of war against each other. Ask either one, and they'll tell you that the other guy did it first. (And I expect they both believe that too.)

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:02 PM

To criticize Israeli policy is not the same thing as to attack "Jews", BB. Jews are simply a people united by a common culture. They are not a state or an organization. They do not have a policy. Anyone is free to criticize the policies of any sovereign state or organization if they want to.

To criticize the policies and activities of Hamas is not the same thing as to attack "Palestinians" in general. Your thread title attacks Palestinians. They are not a state, they are not an organization, they are, like Jews, simply a people united by a common culture. If anti-semitism is unacceptable, then so is anti-whatever-the-heck-you-call-it-when-it's-the-Palestinians-who-are-being-attacked in general as a people.

I have no objection to your complaints about Hamas. I have an objection to your thread title.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:57 PM

Hamas is the government of Gaza, and presently engaging in acts of war against Israel.

Yes or NO?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:54 PM

Yes, that was sort of what I had in mind. Hamas and "the Palestinians" are not one and the same thing. Hamas is a specific organization composed of some militant Palestinians...they are not "the Palestinians" in any collective sense. They are an armed political faction. They are not a nation. They are not a people. They are a militant armed political faction with their own agenda. Most Palestinians are not members of Hamas, they are just people trying to survive.

Shall I judge all Blacks by the activities of the Black Panthers? Shall I judge all Jews by the activities of the most militant Zionist group I can name?

No.

That's why I think, BB, that your thread doesn't have a terribly apt title. It implicates "Palestinians". It's not about Palestinians, it's about Hamas.

You would not like to see a thread with a similar title which implicated "Jews"...as if all Jews were just a bunch of liars and bad people. Would you? Such a thread with such a title would not even be allowed on this forum. It would be closed, because it would be deemed (and quite correctly) antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:53 PM

Yet you post quotes from individuals and claim them as Israeli policy.

Do I detect a double standard??

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:36 PM

I think it's as inaccurate, however, to suggest that Hamas and "the Palestinians" are one and the same thing as it is to say that the Kahanists and "the Jews" are one and the same thing. Of course, we know that in both cases, they are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:29 PM

Problem is that the folks who defend the tactics of Hamas while condemning Israel never SAY that, LH. They tend to gloss over it, excuse it. They excuse the inexcusable in the name of an ideology. Been that way for a long time here. They cloak it in the guise of 'scholarly research' when in fact it is an attempt to portray Israel as the aggressor in any and all conflicts, which we are only too aware is bullshit. Hell, did you post to that other thread and say the same damned thing?

Ah, fuck it! May as well talk to a wall as try to make sense out of people who will berate Israel while giving garbage like Hamas a free pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:17 PM

"I thought we could trust them far more than those nasty Jews."

That's where you were dead wrong, BB! They are at least equally untrustworthy in their use of self-serving propaganda. ;-) And this has always been clear to me.

Pointing out that the rhetoric of Hamas is extreme is like pointing out that mud is slippery and wet. Gosh! Who'd-a thunk it?

I see no point in stirring up hatred against Jews by quoting the worst things that a few Jewish militants have said. I see no point in stirring up hatred against Palestinians by pointing out the worst things that a few Hamas militants have said either.

Most ordinary Jews and Palestinians are the victims of this situation, not the perpetrators of it. They both get drawn in for the same reasons...they feel that they have been threatened and that their people have suffered injury. They are both right about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:01 PM

Guys. We KNOW that Palestinian TV is filled with this kinda shit. Let's not get at each other about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:00 PM

Hell, LH, I'm funnin' with you. I know you don't buy into that bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:59 PM

LH,

You have a problem with listening to what the Palestinians are themselves saying? I thought we could trust them far more than those nasty Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:59 PM

No, I was addressing BB. I have not noticed that this site is overloaded with enthusiastic fans and promoters of Hamas. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:51 PM

If you, sir, are addressing me, my point is that maybe we can begin to see why the peace process in the Middle East is such a difficult one.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:49 PM

And your point is what?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:47 PM

It's hard to argue with the facts, Bruce. Palestinian TV doesn't need to brainwash its viewers. It seems a light rinse would do.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:45 PM

It was on Palestinian TV- It must be correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:43 PM

HAMas. Anyone told them yet?

Subject: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:38 PM

Hamas Holocaust perversion:
Jews planned Holocaust to kill handicapped Jews

By Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook, Apr. 30, 2008


Jewish leaders planned the Holocaust to kill "disabled and handicapped" Jews to avoid having to care for them, according to a Hamas TV educational program. As much of the world prepared to commemorate Yom HaShoah, Holocaust Remembrance Day, Hamas TV presented its latest sinister twist on Holocaust denial.

The Hamas TV educational program, broadcast last week, taught that the murder of Jews in the Holocaust was a Zionist plot with two goals:

1- To eliminate "disabled and handicapped" Jews by sending them to death camps, so they would not be a burden on the future state of Israel.
2- At the same time, the Holocaust served to make "the Jews seem persecuted" so they could "benefit from international sympathy."

Amin Dabur, head of the Palestinian "Center for Strategic Research" explained that "the Israeli Holocaust - the whole thing was a joke, and part of the perfect show that [Zionist leader and future Israeli prime minister] Ben Gurion put on." The "young energetic and able" were sent to Israel, while the handicapped were sent "so there would be a Holocaust."

more at http://www.pmw.org.il/