BS: War in Georgia (2008)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 06:50 AM

I see the discussion between Carol and BB as having reached a point where it can no longer serve to advance the discussion helpfully.

I understand and agree with both points as summarized below.

BB - It is complex messy and we shouldn't be too quick to conclude who is at fault.

Carol - The wests response flies in the face of any fair assessment of the root causes of the conflict.


My view is that while I don't trust Putin (any more than any other politician) I don't blame the russians.

NATO seems to be suggesting that the Georgian atrocities in south ossetia can be overlooked as their actions were about asserting control over their own sovereign territory and Russia has no mandate to judge, let alone act.

Russia on the other hand seems prepared to overlook south ossetian atrocities committed under their noses in the area around Gori, no doubt on the basis that they are just getting a bit of revenge after the aggression of the Georgians.

In fact, the georgians and ossetians should both be getting their knuckles rapped for playing with peoples lives.

The fact they aren't could suggest that there is a power game going on between Russia and Nato ...

But my guess now is that they have just gone and got themselves entrenched, a bit like Carol and Bruce, and aren't listening to each other.

Russia should be withdrawing to the ossetian border and taking the ossetians with them.

Nato should be supporting russia and finding ways to work with her to bring peace to the region.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 05:13 AM

Re.. the proposed siting of the missile defence shield in Poland.

The Americans would have us believe that this is to protect the West from attack by a "rogue" state such as Iran.

As most people agree that Iran does not have nuclear weapons at present, or are likely to aquire them in the forseeable future, this excuse seems feeble.
In addition, any attack by Iran on the West would ensure its own immediate destruction by a counterstrike.

I think an all out war for energy will be waged by the West and this missile defence system is the first step in a programme to neutralise any military retaliation by Russia.
America is still the only country to have used nuclear weapons and have shown themselves willing to use them against a rival ideology in the Cuba Crisis.
I am quite sure the nuclear option will be considered very carefully by the people who run America, should their ideology and economic system come under thread from dwindling energy supplies...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 03:34 AM

As Volgadon pointed out, the real danger is Ukraine, where the government's support is paper- thin, as is their mandate. The "Orange Revolution" is seen by Russia as western interference, and indeed overthrew a president whose policy was to develop closer ties with Russia. Many of the Ukrainian population are of Russian origin - some areas well over 50%.

This would not matter, had the government not early on adopted a nationalist policy which could be interpreted as making Russians into second- class citizens. Ukraine is also very dependent on Russia for energy.

It's quite probable that the Russians will use economic pressure to split Ukraine, and declare a "protectorate" over the Eastern areas. The best way to counter this is to embark on a policy of economic development which will benefit all Ukrainians, including Russian speakers, and secure their energy supplies.

Can the west do this, in a recession, when Europe has become dependent on Russian gas?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:11 PM

Ron is right.

Bush and McCain can bluster all they want. No one is going to war with Russia over this. Blame who you want. Russia has won.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:06 PM

My last was in response to the 19 Aug 08 - 10:00 PM post.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:05 PM

Why does the source matter?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:03 PM

Well, BB, I don't know what you consider an objective source. But one I respect greatly, in addition to the reporting in the WSJ ( as opposed to the editorials) is the Economist.

Economist 10 Aug 2008, p 11., start of article "Russia resurgent": On the night of August 7th, Mikheil Saakashvili, Georgia's president, embarked on an ill-judged assault on South Ossetia, one of his country's two breakaway provinces."

Georgia "embarked".

What's more, anybody who could read would have seen many citations, including on this thread, that Saakashvili proclaimed that when elected president, he would bring South Ossetia back into Georgia, ending its de facto autonomy. Foolishly, he actually tried to do what he promised.


More from the same article: " Mr. Saakashvili is an impetuous nationalist who has lately tarnished his democratic credentials. His venture into South Ossetia was foolish and possibly criminal". Despite this, the Economist prefers him to Putin--as any reasonable person would do. But they do, as noted above, cite him as the instigator of the August 2008 crisis.

The argument over who started it is pointless anyway. As I've noted, as long as all sides operate on the rule: "We must respond to any provocation"--and all sides are willing to read provocation into just about anything, the problem will never be solved.

But anybody--GWB to pick a purely theoretical example--who blusters about how Georgia's "territorial integrity" --which includes South Ossetia and Abkhazia--must be "restored" is a pathetic creature. It's time to wake up and realize there is no force on earth which can compel this. And it's emphatically not worth going to war with Russia over. Or do you perhaps believe it is?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 10:00 PM

reference for that claim - WHO was it that said it?

SOURCE, please.

When I search for OSCE and comments, I do not find any such claim. Please let me know where it is.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:52 PM

According to people who are not Georgians, South Ossetians, or Russians (The members of the OSCE), Georgia fired first. So that makes the Georgians liars.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbrucew
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM

"The Georgian government cannot possibly be responding to attacks from anyone else if they are the ones who fired FIRST."

Since they did not fire first, yours is a strawman argement.



"I'm definitely not the one on this thread who can't read."

Yes, you are. See my posts -


"First means nobody did it before the Georgians did it. They did it first, and everybody else did it after. First means first... not second, or third, which is what it would be if they were firing in response to someone else (who are the ones who would have been first had the Georgians been firing in response."

That is what it means, but you have no evidence that it is TRUE- So, another strawman.

"Once again, according to the peacekeeping forces, Georgia fired first. Not second, not in response to someone else. "

And according to the Georgians, the South Ossetians fired first- you know- First means nobody did it before the South Ossetians did it. They did it first, and everybody else did it after. First means first... not second, or third, which is what it would be if they were firing in response to someone else (who are the ones who would have been first had the South Ossetians been firing in response.



YOU make the claim that the Russians are telling the truth, in spite of their vested interest in making a lie, buit that the Georgians are lying, because of their interest.

I claim only that we DO NOT KNOW who is telling the truth- But we should find out BEFORE deciding who is the responsible party.

It is up to you to prove that the Russians are telling the truth- or else cease to make unjustified claims as to who is to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM

And as I said before (but apparently someone can't read), the peacekeeping forces included members of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) mission.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbrucew
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM

"The Georgian government cannot possibly be responding to attacks from anyone else if they are the ones who fired FIRST."

Since they did not fire first, yours is a strawman argement.



"I'm definitely not the one on this thread who can't read."

Yes, you are. See my posts -


"First means nobody did it before the Georgians did it. They did it first, and everybody else did it after. First means first... not second, or third, which is what it would be if they were firing in response to someone else (who are the ones who would have been first had the Georgians been firing in response."

That is what it means, but you have no evidence that it is TRUE- So, another strawman.

"Once again, according to the peacekeeping forces, Georgia fired first. Not second, not in response to someone else. "

And according to the Georgians, the South Ossetians fired first- you know- First means nobody did it before the South Ossetians did it. They did it first, and everybody else did it after. First means first... not second, or third, which is what it would be if they were firing in response to someone else (who are the ones who would have been first had the South Ossetians been firing in response.



YOU make the claim that the Russians are telling the truth, in spite of their vested interest in making a lie, buit that the Georgians are lying, because of their interest.

I claim only that we DO NOT KNOW who is telling the truth- But we should find out BEFORE deciding who is the responsible party.

It is up to you to prove that the Russians are telling the truth- or else cease to make unjustified claims as to who is to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:42 PM

The Georgian government cannot possibly be responding to attacks from anyone else if they are the ones who fired FIRST.

I'm definitely not the one on this thread who can't read.


First means nobody did it before the Georgians did it. They did it first, and everybody else did it after. First means first... not second, or third, which is what it would be if they were firing in response to someone else (who are the ones who would have been first had the Georgians been firing in response.

Once again, according to the peacekeeping forces, Georgia fired first. Not second, not in response to someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:30 PM

"The United Nations Security Council convened an emergency session early Friday at Russia's request to discuss the conflict in South Ossetia, but could not reach an agreement on Moscow's call for a statement that would have required both Georgia and South Ossetia to renounce the use of force."



BOTH, not just Georgia-

A rugged, heavily forested region nestled in the foothills of the Caucasus Mountains, South Ossetia has existed as a de facto independent state within Georgian territory since a bloody civil war with Georgia in 1991-92. No country recognizes its statehood, but Russia supports the region economically and has maintained a military presence there.

It is one of two breakaway republics in Georgia: the other, Abkhazia on the Black Sea coast, is also run by a separatist government and survives with the help of strong economic and political backing from Moscow.

When Saakashvili took power, he pledged to Georgians that he would return the country's separatist regions back into Georgia's fold. He succeeded with another Black Sea breakaway region, Ajaria, where he ousted a Moscow backed separatist leader in 2004.

But years of negotiations with separatist leaders in Abkhazia and South Ossetia have proved fruitless. Saakashvili has offered those governments broad autonomy in exchange for allegiance to Georgia, but Abkhaz and South Ossetian leaders have insisted on full-scale independence or absorption into Russia.

Georgia's all-out assault on South Ossetia was preceded by attacks by Ossetian forces against Georgian troops earlier in the week, including a separatist ambush with rocket-propelled grenades on a Georgian armored personnel carrier that killed two soldiers and injured six, Georgian authorities said. On Thursday, a separatist mortar attack on the village of Avnevi killed eight Georgian civilians.

Thursday evening, Saakishvili called for a cease-fire and urged separatist leaders to resume talks on a peaceful settlement. But when separatists began shelling Georgian villages after Saakashvili's cease-fire call, Georgian leaders decided to move ahead with the assault.
......

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:30 PM

"'WHAT WERE THEY SMOKING IN THE WHITE HOUSE?'"


                   Emma - Almost immediately after the unpleasantness started, Poland agreed to the missile bases. Maybe that's where they were going all along. Convinced the Georgian government that if they started something with Russia, the US would bail them out. Let it happen, and pleaded ignorance--it wouldn't take many stage props to convince the American public that George W. Bush was ignorant--and they never really cared what happened to Georgia in the first place.
                   Now they've got the missile bases and Georgia's got the shaft. Cheney and Bush are good at this--with their "dumb cop/smart cop routine.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:24 PM

from your post:

"The Georgian media, however, reported that the South Ossetian side had been shelling the Georgian villages of Avnevi and Nuli for three hours."

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:21 PM

And the Georgian government said that they were responding to South Ossetian attacks. Can't you read?

"a week of what it said were separatist attacks on Georgian villages that border the enclave."

"Georgia's all-out assault on South Ossetia was preceded by attacks by Ossetian forces against Georgian troops earlier in the week, including a separatist ambush with rocket-propelled grenades on a Georgian armored personnel carrier that killed two soldiers and injured six, Georgian authorities said. On Thursday, a separatist mortar attack on the village of Avnevi killed eight Georgian civilians.

Thursday evening, Saakishvili called for a cease-fire and urged separatist leaders to resume talks on a peaceful settlement. But when separatists began shelling Georgian villages after Saakashvili's cease-fire call, Georgian leaders decided to move ahead with the assault.

"Separatists opened fire in response to yesterday's peaceful initiative of the president of Georgia," said Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze in a televised address. "As a result, lives of civilians were under threat."

Speaking Friday on CNN, Saakashvili accused Russia of provoking Georgia into attacking South Ossetia, an intimation that Russia engineered the separatist shelling of Georgian villages late Thursday. "Most decision-makers have gone for the holidays," an apparent reference to the opening ceremonies of the Summer Olympics in Beijing. "Brilliant moment to attack a small country.""

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-080808-georgia-ossetia-webaug09,0,4176197.story



"The Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone said that the Georgian side started firing first "

Let me see- Russians, South Ossetians, Georgians- the Georgians object to the conclusion, but are outvoted. Must be nice to have such faith in one side.

So Russia and the South Ossetians have nothing to gain by lying, but the Georgians DO?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:08 PM

Once again...

According to the South Ossetian Interior Ministry, on August 7 Georgia started ground fire and shelling of the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali from the village of Nikozi. Then, according to Tskhinvali, the shelling and shooting at the South Ossetian village of Khetagurovo was started from the Georgian village of Avnevi. About 10 people were killed and another 50 received various wounds. The Georgian media, however, reported that the South Ossetian side had been shelling the Georgian villages of Avnevi and Nuli for three hours. According to the information of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone, it was the Georgian side that started firing first. Also, there were reports that Russian peacekeepers were fired on.

The Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone said that the Georgian side started firing first

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 05:11 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/19/georgia.russia.war/index.html

"The conflict began when Georgia launched a large-scale attack on South Ossetia on August 7 after a week of what it said were separatist attacks on Georgian villages that border the enclave. Russian troops responded in force the next day, pouring across the international border with hundreds of tanks and armored vehicles and driving into Georgia from South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another Russian-backed separatist territory.

The fighting has devastated parts of Georgia and South Ossetia, with many casualties reported. The U.N. refugee agency said more than 158,000 people had been displaced by fighting in Georgia, mostly from districts outside the breakaway territories where the fighting began. Watch how Georgians are being affected by the conflict »

Both Russia and Georgia accuse the other of ethnic cleansing during the conflict. "

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 05:10 PM

'WHAT WERE THEY SMOKING IN THE WHITE HOUSE?'

one explanation

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 04:48 PM

Emma,

NONE is disputing that Georgia attacked Tbilisi. The question is whether they did so in reaction to attacks by South Ossetians on Georgians, earlier.

As for the "joint peacekeeping forces", who said what, when? I have not seen anything from the Georgians that were members, that there were no earlier attacks by South Ossetians.


DOn't tell me that Georgia attacked Tbilisi- THAT is agreed by both sides- TELL ME why they did so- was it because they were reacting to an attack or not? Or are you going to be mindreading them again?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 03:40 PM

I posted this reort yesterday -

'People insist that a terrible barrage struck the city late Aug. 7 and continued into the morning -

- accounts supported by Western monitors who were also forced into their cellars.

Even buildings used by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe were damaged, one severely.'

There were eight or nine OSCE monitors in South Ossetia prior to this conflict Russia has agreed to the deployment of a bigger international monitoring mission in and around Georgia's disputed region of South Ossetia, the head of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe said today.

'OSCE chairman Alexander Stubb, the Finnish foreign minister, said the plan called for the immediate dispatch of 20 military observers to Tbilisi'   ..... International Herald Tribune

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 03:21 PM

And Georgians and members of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) mission.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 03:00 PM

CarolC,


"(according to the members of the joint peacekeeping forces)"

Who consist of WHOM?


The Russians and the South Ossetians?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:56 PM

500!

It was a minor miracle that outside intervention had some success in Bosnia. However, that was after 3 years of exhausting uncivil war.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM

It's also a perfect example of circular thinking.


The South Ossetians broke the cease fire.

No they didn't.

How do you know?

The South Ossetians said so.

You can't trust the South Ossetians. They broke the cease fire.


But in this case, it's not just the South Ossetians who say so.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:48 PM

Correction...

Saying that the South Ossetians broke the cease fire so therefore we can't trust what they say is a perfect example of one sided thinking. We have seen (according to the members of the joint peacekeeping forces) that it was not the South Ossetians who broke the cease fire, but that in fact it was the Georgians who broke the cease fire. So it's the Georgians whose word cannot be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:46 PM

Saying that the South Ossetians broke the cease fire so therefore we can't trust what we say is a perfect example of one sided thinking. We have seen (according to the members of the joint peacekeeping forces) that it was not the South Ossetians who broke the cease fire, but in fact that Georgians who broke the cease fire.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM

The Russians don't need to use nukes to damage the US. All they have to do is turn off a few pipelines and damage a few more.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:36 PM

'But even as tensions appear to be easing in the South Ossetia crisis, Saakashvili's bold—critics say reckless—handling of a crisis with Russia over the pro-Russian breakaway republic is raising plenty of questions.

The doubts being raised challenge not only his judgment in ordering Georgian forces into South Ossetia (a move that triggered the Russian assault) but also about the Bush administration's approach to backing a young, nationalistic democrat whose actions have fed the deepest tensions between Washington and a resurgent Moscow since the end of the Cold War........

Still, State Department officials were troubled last year by Saakashvili's willingness to send police against unarmed protesters and an opposition TV station and to rule, for a time, under a state of emergency.

In recent months, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and other officials are said to have warned Saakashvili against taking any military moves that could provoke Moscow, especially a thrust into South Ossetia.

It is unclear how firmly the message was delivered, but their advice seems to have been ignored'

From a report by Thomas Omestad yesterday

'Why Washington Has Embraced Georgia's Embattled President
But in taking on Russia, Saakashvili may have misjudged the depth of U.S. support'

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:34 PM

CarolC,

Are you aware of the present condition of Russia submarine forces?




"I personally don't see what Poland wants with American anti-missile missiles (particularly when they don't really work). I think the notion of countering ballistic missiles with missiles has not been turned in to a successful production weapon"

Wrong- they work, but the present installations ( both here and in Poland ) are for only 10 interceptors- enough to remove the threat of a "rogue nation" (N. Korea, Iran) or terrorists launching a few missiles, but not enough to affect the balance of power between US/Russia/France/UK/China, all of whom have lots more than 10 launch vehicles.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:28 PM

According to the South Ossetian Interior Ministry, on August 7 Georgia started ground fire and shelling of the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali from the village of Nikozi. Then, according to Tskhinvali, the shelling and shooting at the South Ossetian village of Khetagurovo was started from the Georgian village of Avnevi. About 10 people were killed and another 50 received various wounds. The Georgian media, however, reported that the South Ossetian side had been shelling the Georgian villages of Avnevi and Nuli for three hours. According to the information of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone, it was the Georgian side that started firing first. Also, there were reports that Russian peacekeepers were fired on.

Let me see. You ignore the claimed attacks by South Ossetians that BROKE the ceasefire, and you take the word of the "Joint Peacekeeping Forces " consisting of whom? You seem to go out of your way to ensure that you only get one side of the story.

Are you stating that you KNOW that the South Ossetians did NOT attack any Georgians on the 7th, prior to the Geoirgian attack? Will you admit that, if they did, the Ossetians will have no right to ANYTHING, as you seem to impose on the Georgians?





"The war began after a ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia broke down, WITH AN ESCALATION OF FIRE EXCHANGES. Georgia THEN proceeded to launch a major military offensive in South Ossetia.[17] The Georgian government said the troops had been sent to end the shelling of Georgian civilians by South Ossetian "

Note: Echanges indicates that BOTH sides were engaged.

"On August 7, 2008, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili ordered Georgian troops to ceasefire.[53][54] Despite the declared ceasefire, fighting intensified.[55][56] Hours after the declaration of the ceasefire, in a televised address, Mikheil Saakashvili vowed to restore Tbilisi's control over what he called the "criminal regime" in South Ossetia and Abkhazia and reinforce order.[56]"


"A truce was later announced, with emergency talks set for Friday, but by nightfall, both sides were trading heavy fire.

Georgia accuses Russia of arming the South Ossetian authorities - who have been trying to break away since the civil war in the 1990s. Moscow denies the claim."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7546639.stm

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 01:41 AM

That won't prevent the Russians from firing nukes from their submarines.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Baffled
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 01:32 AM

Long thread I haven't been able to read completely, but has anyone pointed out that the Georgian ethnic cleansing began just after midnight on 8-8-08? Trained by the Luciferian CIA, the Georgians got extra occultic 'power' by killing as many as they could on that magical day.

The Brezinski plan (Z. Brezinski is advising Obama and his son is advising McCain) is to encircle Russia with nukes. Medium range. Also put up missile defenses. Then pre-emptively attack. This renders Mutually Assured Destruction obsolete. NATO believes it can actually sneak attack Russia, destroy most of it's reactive ability, and then shoot down the few missiles that get off the ground.

True insanity. I hope Europe is spooked about this, because Americans don't seem to be. I don't watch TV, but on the day after the Ossetian attack (which will be remembered as the beginning of WW3, much as Ferdinand's assassination marked the beginning of WW1), on 8-8-8 I watched a minute or two of the NBC nightly news, and the lead stories were all tabloid fodder. Comedian Bernie Mac died, etc. No mention of the Ossetia situation.

The news media in America is helping to cover up the crimes of the global corporatists who've seized our government.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:18 AM

I've been hearing conflicting reports about what the Russian forces have been doing in Georgia as well. As we've seen, the Georgians are doing a lot of lying, and they were caught at it by the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone (see my previous post). Right now, I'm not prepared to accept the version of events that is being promulgated by the government of Georgia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:14 AM

Georgia declared a unilateral truce on August 7, and on August 7 these things happened...

According to the South Ossetian Interior Ministry, on August 7 Georgia started ground fire and shelling of the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali from the village of Nikozi. Then, according to Tskhinvali, the shelling and shooting at the South Ossetian village of Khetagurovo was started from the Georgian village of Avnevi. About 10 people were killed and another 50 received various wounds. The Georgian media, however, reported that the South Ossetian side had been shelling the Georgian villages of Avnevi and Nuli for three hours. According to the information of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone, it was the Georgian side that started firing first. Also, there were reports that Russian peacekeepers were fired on.

Georgia began invading and occupying South Ossetian villages by 2:45 AM on the 8th.

Some unilateral cease fire.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 10:50 PM

I think it is pointless to argue whether or not the Ossetians are brave little defenders of their cultural identity or pawns of the big bear. It's obviously clearly both. The Ossetians make a handy 'bully boy' with which Russia can tweak the Georgian nose of the Western camel which has come into their tent of influence. The Russians are supporters of nationalities when it suits, and they are the crushers of nationalities as well. Check with the Chechens just north of this situation. The Soviet Union was a wholesale ethnic cleanser/relocator.

This is not sudden and it is not based purely on the events of the last ten days. It is an interesting combination of what appears to me to be clumsy moves by the Bush administration to extend NATO membership precipatetly and somewhat incomprehensibly. I personally don't see what Poland wants with American anti-missile missiles (particularly when they don't really work). I think the notion of countering ballistic missiles with missiles has not been turned in to a successful production weapon, it is warmed over Reagan-vision. And it definitely pisses off the Russians. It always has. Similarly, the Russian bait-and-smash of the Georgians is reminiscent of Cold War objectives and Cold War tactics.

It is overall a surrender to the old world view, (us and them)and it is creating deja vue to those of us who remember the good ol' days of Soviet Union, Warsaw Pact, and NATO.

Russia might profit immediately as 'tough guy on the block' but with a resurgent and united Europe I think it is not a good long term policy.

Clearly this has been a tonic to the McCain campaign, which is slanted toward the previous century (as was the 'W' administration). They're going to make all the hay they can over this. Obama is at risk either way he wants to argue: He can't look any more militant than McCain, so he will be branded as a 'me-too'. On the other hand, his ability to reason via the 'big picture', while very attractive in the primaries, leaves him open to a charge of looking weak by being reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:43 PM

"THE PRESENT ETHNIC CLENSING THAT IS GOING ON IS BY THE OSSETIANS, AND RUSSIAN "PEACEKEEPERS, AGAINST GEORGIAN CIVILIANS."


                   After learning the truth about Kosovo, there are numbers of Americans who do not believe this is happening, or ever did happen.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:31 PM

the irony here is that in seeking to expand its and Nato's influence the US has actually diminished the alliance. Obviously the US took advantage of Sakashvili to extend the US sphere of influence into formerly Soviet borders. So whats going to happen to Nato, while the US and British media covers this as Russian aggression the rest of Europe isnt as black and white on the subject. The OLD Europe which still has several times the population and wealth of New Europe is not as willing to go to war with Russia over Georgia or some other former RUssian territory.
And that is what Nato membership would mean.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:29 PM

CarolC,,

You keep ignoring the CEASEFIRE of 7 Aug, that would have ended the violence except for S. Ossetion restarting it.
YOU keep picking dates befiore the ceasefire- well, I can too, to show attacks on the Georgians. Just admit BOTH sides were at fault, and that Russia has no right to continue to occupy Georgia, as they seem to be doing.

THE PRESENT ETHNIC CLENSING THAT IS GOING ON IS BY THE OSSETIANS, AND RUSSIAN "PEACEKEEPERS, AGAINST GEORGIAN CIVILIANS.

I really don't think you want to be thought of as someone in favor of that.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:20 PM

No I don't consider the South Ossetians responsible. As I have said before, had Georgia not tried to subjugate South Ossetia, and interfered with their right to self determination, none of that violence would have occurred.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:19 PM

This incident...

On March 31, 2008 a South Ossetian police post near the village of Okona in the Znaur District was attacked by a group armed with guns and grenade launchers. Military observers from the Joint Peacekeeping Force and the OSCE mission established that the shots were fired from an area controlled by Georgia. Two days before the shooting, Georgian police task force and security officers dressed as civilians had been seen in the vicinity.

...occurred prior to the incident that the person who is insisting that the South Ossetians started this round of violence has been referencing as the start of the violence. As did this one...


On April 2 another armed group fired automatic weapons at a South Ossetian Defense Ministry checkpoint near the village of Andzi-si. The servicemen at the checkpoint did not return fire.

And all of these...

A total of 56 incidents of ceasefire violation by Georgian forces were registered by the Joint Peacekeeping Force in April 2008. Most of them involved random shooting with the purpose of fueling tension in the region.

Clearly, the violence that this person is insisting was the start of THIS round of violence was not the start of this round of violence.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:12 PM

Wrong, CarolC. The post you claim did nothing of the sort. I HAVE STATED THAT GEORGIA bears some responsibility- when do you admit the South Ossetians do as well?

IN FACT, the attack of 7 Aug by the gEORGIANS ( WHICH WAS AN OVER-REACTION) was in response to an attack BY SOUTH OSSETIANS on GEORGIANS, after a ceasefire. There had been attacks by BOTH sides ealier, and would be later. But there would have been no invasion if the Ossetians had kept the ceasefire- unless the Russians, who were already attacking Georgia, insisted on it.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:04 PM

In the 18 Aug 08 - 04:02 PM post and others, it is asserted that it was South Ossetia that started this round of violence prior to the attack and invasion of South Ossetia by Georgia on August 8th. This is false. That post and others makes the claim that South Ossetia unilaterally engaged in violence against Georgia during that time period, and that Georgia was just acting in self defence. That post (and others) ignores all of the violence that Georgia was using against South Ossetia during the same time period. That post and others are suggesting that Georgia didn't contribute to the violence prior to it's bombing and invasion of South Ossetia on August 8th. This is entirely false.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 07:23 PM

Another demonstration of the truth that the Cold War wasn't really anything much to do with the USSR being Socialist.

Of course it suited the rulers on both sides to make out that it was - for the Soviet Union it was a way of winning a certain measure of support from some Socialists outside, and for the Americans especially it was a way of discrediting Socialist ideas.

But in fact the way the USSR acted was down to Russian imperialism, carried over from pre-revolutionary times, and still very much with us in post Soviet times.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 06:18 PM

"Someone has been suggesting that the South Ossetians were unilaterally attacking Georgia and Georgian villages, and saying that the South Ossetians were the aggressors prior to Georgia's bombing and invasion of South Ossetia. "

YOU are the only one claiming unilateral anything.

South Ossetia did attack Georgians before the Aug 7 invasion. Fact- live with it.


I never said that either side was innocent- YOU did that.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 06:14 PM

Georgia has no right to force or even expect the South Ossetians to leave the area where they have been living for many hundreds of years. The South Ossetians do have a right to remain living there in freedom for however long they want.

If might makes right, and whoever has the most might can do whatever they want to whoever is weaker, then we really can't tell Russia it can't annex Georgia if it wants to. If might is the only right, Russia can do whatever it wants with Georgia. If might doesn't make right, then whatever rights the people of Georgia have to be free and independent and not subjugated by a larger more powerful country, the South Ossetians also have.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 06:06 PM

"The conflict has devastated parts of Georgia and South Ossetia, with many casualties reported. The U.N. refugee agency said more than 158,000 people had been displaced by fighting in Georgia, mostly from districts outside the breakaway territories where the fighting began."

The figure above is rather astounding since the conflict is about only 40,000 unhappy people in the area we are calling South Ossetia, a part of Georgia.

To "rescue" them, the Russians have started a conflict that has displaced 158,000 innocent civilians from all over the nation of Georgia, and that number can only rise.

As I said before, if the Ossetian minority, about 57% of the disputed region's total population want to leave, Russia should be sending vans and busses, not MIGs and tanks.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:57 PM

Someone has been suggesting that the South Ossetians were unilaterally attacking Georgia and Georgian villages, and saying that the South Ossetians were the aggressors prior to Georgia's bombing and invasion of South Ossetia. This is not true. Georgia was also engaging in acts of aggression against South Ossetia. So for Georgia to be violating the cease fire and engaging in acts of aggression against South Ossetia, and to then bomb, shell, and invade South Ossetia on the pretext that it's doing so because it's a victim of South Ossetian aggression is simply a lie. Georgia's bombing and invasion of South Ossetia had nothing whatever to do with defending itself from acts of aggression from South Ossetia.

As we can see, Georgia was deliberately inflaming the situation in South Ossetia in order to create a pretext to bomb and invade.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:52 PM

On March 31, 2008 a South Ossetian police post near the village of Okona in the Znaur District was attacked by a group armed with guns and grenade launchers. Military observers from the Joint Peacekeeping Force and the OSCE mission established that the shots were fired from an area controlled by Georgia. Two days before the shooting, Georgian police task force and security officers dressed as civilians had been seen in the vicinity.

On April 2 another armed group fired automatic weapons at a South Ossetian Defense Ministry checkpoint near the village of Andzi-si. The servicemen at the checkpoint did not return fire.

A total of 56 incidents of ceasefire violation by Georgian forces were registered by the Joint Peacekeeping Force in April 2008. Most of them involved random shooting with the purpose of fueling tension in the region.

On May 14 President of South Ossetia Eduard Kokoity said the Georgian special services were planning a terrorist attack in the territory of the self-proclaimed republic against Georgians and Georgian peacekeepers.

On May 15 Captain Vladimir Ivanov, an aide to the Joint Peacekeeping Force commander for contacts with the media, announced a planned rotation of the peacekeeping contingent in South Ossetia. Georgian media then spread information about an alleged expansion of the Russian peacekeeping contingent in the conflict zone, quoting Georgia's foreign minister. A routine rotation was described as a "provocation" and a "reckless enterprise."

On July 3 as Dmitry Sanakoyev, head of the 'alternative' Georgian-backed government of South Ossetia, was driving across the republic to Batumi to attend an international conference, his car was struck by a mine and fired at from the direction of local villages. Sanakoyev's bodyguards returned fire. The shooting went on for several minutes. Three of the guards were severely injured. Sanakoyev himself was unscathed. South Ossetian Interior Minister Mikhail Mindzayev said that the attack on Sanakoyev was orchestrated by Georgia to provide a pretext for invading the self-proclaimed republic.

On July 7 the police in Russia's Southern Federal District detained four military men from the Georgian Defense Ministry in the village of Okon, South Ossetia's Znaur District. Officials of the breakaway region of South Ossetia claimed the detained men were pursuing intelligence activities in the Tskhinvali region. Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili considered the detainment a hostage situation. On July 8, the detainees were released.

On July 9, Russia's Foreign Ministry issued a statement concerning the aggravated situation in the Georgian-Abkhazian and Georgian-Ossetian conflict zones, which said that "For the past several days, the situation in the Georgian-Abkhazian and Georgian-South Ossetian conflict zones has intensified. The city of Tskhinvali has been shelled by the Georgian army, with victims registered among civilians. Fighters and unmanned aircraft of the Georgian Air Force have repeatedly violated the conflict territorial air zones. In a terrorist attack, a South Ossetian police officer was killed. Georgian military set up a post at a strategic site near the village of Sarabuki. Additional military equipment was moved from Georgia into the conflict zone without any coordination with the Joint Peacekeeping Forces, which was registered by military observers including by the OSCE mission in Georgia. These actions point to an open and planned aggression against South Ossetia, which is the internationally recognized side in settling the conflict."

On August 1 and 2, the tension in the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict zone was aggravated due to a massive shelling of Tskhinvali's residential districts, which led to numerous deaths among civilians, with six South Ossetians killed and 15 wounded. Georgia claimed this was a response to South Ossetia's gunfire on Georgia's territory. South Ossetia began evacuating the region's residents to North Ossetia, with 2,500 people leaving their homes during the two days after the shelling.

On August 6, South Ossetian President Eduard Kokoity said he would take "the toughest measures" toward "militants firing at the villages." Previously, the breakaway region's Defense Ministry reported that the Georgian side started sniper fire at the South Ossetian villages of Mugut and Didmukha in the Znaur District at around 12:00 p.m. According to South Ossetian sources, the Georgian special forces attempted to occupy Nul Height to gain control over the Znaur road and the South Ossetian villages located along the road. In the afternoon, it was reported that an aggressive battle was taking place at the village of Nul.

Irina Gagloyeva, head of South Ossetia's Committee for Information and the Press, told RIA Novosti that South Ossetian units had forced the Georgian military units out of Nul Height.

Georgia's Interior Ministry, however, denied the reports.

According to the South Ossetian Interior Ministry, on August 7 Georgia started ground fire and shelling of the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali from the village of Nikozi. Then, according to Tskhinvali, the shelling and shooting at the South Ossetian village of Khetagurovo was started from the Georgian village of Avnevi. About 10 people were killed and another 50 received various wounds. The Georgian media, however, reported that the South Ossetian side had been shelling the Georgian villages of Avnevi and Nuli for three hours. According to the information of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone, it was the Georgian side that started firing first. Also, there were reports that Russian peacekeepers were fired on.

On August 8 Georgia started military operations in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone.