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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 26 Jul 18 - 09:24 AM Hi Richard, If you can post, text/translation, that would be great. The scope of ballads on this thread are the Carpenter versions and related British and sometimes other foreign ballads. There was already a thread on US versions. We're trying to reach some new conclusions about origin and classification. In some ballads, examining the Carpenter versions are crucial to understanding the British Child ballads as a whole. The Lord Ronald (Randal) Carpenter versions are not unusual-- they confirm however, that at least in Scotland, "Lord Ronald/Donald" is the main Scottish branch-- this contradicts Child's opening remark: "Scott says that the hero was more generally termed Lord Ronald: but in the versions that have come down to us this is not so." At this point we're exploring Child 12 ballad types and we've seen several examples: The "Henry my son" ballad of the 1900s; the "pretty boy" Irish/Scotch; the "Lord Ronald/Donald" Scottish type; The English "Randal" type and a number of foreign versions which constitute separate ballad types. The "Croodlin Doo" has not been explored-- and no versions of it were found (at least I could find) by Carpenter. The question is: why in 1931 where no versions of Croodlin Doo collected in Scotland? Since the Carpenter texts have been given, we'll be moving on to Child 13 soon and I'll be assimilating the British and foreign texts of Child 12 for the next week. Any further British and other(foreign) versions of Child 12 or suggestions about ballad origin would be helpful now before we move on. There also a few Carpenter versions of the related "Tommy my boy/Billy Boy" which could be included here. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richard Mellish Date: 26 Jul 18 - 04:11 AM If (as generally in this series of threads) we're exploring a ballad more broadly than just the versions collected by Carpenter, then one more that deserves mention is the odd Welsh one of which two verses were included in the Caedmon Folksongs of Britain and re-issued as the Rounder CD 1161-1775-2. In one of the verses not included on the CD but quoted in translation in the booklet, the hero leaves to his sister a sewing machine - which implies a recent origin for that version. (However the quoted Welsh words "In jian i wnio" look odd to me so I have PM'd sian, west wales to enquire.) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:43 PM Hi, This Irish "pretty boy" version dates into the 1800s. It was given in a short article written by Joseph J. MacSweeney (The Modern Language Review, Vol. 13, No. 3; July, 1918, pp. 325-327). His source is his mother about 1912, who learned it near Blarney in the County Cork. She is also his source for Child 3. Apparently, she learned both about 50 years ago in the 1860s (see: notes for False Knight, 1912). MacSweeney comments: "I know the ballad to be current in Ireland and I give the following version exactly as I heard it:" 'Where were you all day, my own pretty boy? Where were you all day, my comfort and joy?' 'I was fishing and fowling; mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and I want to lie down.' 'What will you leave your father, my own pretty boy? What will you leave your father, my comfort and joy?' 'My house and my lands; mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and I want to lie down.' 'What will you leave your sister, my own pretty boy ? What will you leave your sister, my comfort and joy?' 'My carriage and four, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and I want to lie down.' 'What will you leave your brother, my own pretty boy? What will you leave your brother, my comfort and joy?' 'My boots and my spurs; mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and I want to lie down.' 'What will you leave your wife, my own pretty boy? What will you leave your' wife, my comfort and joy?' 'A rope for to hang her; mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and I want to lie down.' * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:05 PM Hi, The Celtic review version of 1906 is a Welsh version that can be viewed here: https://archive.org/stream/celticreview02edinuoft#page/298 It dates back about 50 years (1856) when learned by Davies' mother. The author, J. Glyn Davies, makes some claims about the original ballad date based on some of the phrases which warrant further investigation. The translation is found at footnote 4 at the bottom of this post. Here's the text: A WELSH BALLAD J. Glyn Davies (Welsh Library, Aberystwyth) I TOOK down the following ballad and its tune from the singing of my mother, Mrs. John Davies of Liverpool, who had heard it sung at Talysarn, Carnarvonshire, nearly half a century ago, by her eldest sister. I do not know of any other instance of its existence in Wales, nor indeed of any other ballad of a similar type. It is obviously fragmentary, and must have been so when my mother heard it, for the last verse was regarded as an anticlimax pour rire. From the fairly regular distribution of stressed and unstressed syllables, I would assign the utmost age-limit of the present form of the ballad to the mid-sixteenth century[1]. The phrase 'claf iawn y w f'enaid' [very sick is my soul] I should not expect to find in Welsh popular poetry much after the close of the sixteenth century. Between metric and diction, I feel tempted to put the ballad down to the first half of the seventeenth century. In the following arrangement of words and tune, each of the first two lines is repeated : — [with music] 1. Tif fy mab anwyl ble buost ti ddoe; yn hela sgwarnogod: mam cweiriwch fy ngwely; (repeat) Claf iawn yw f'enaid yn ymyl terfynu. 2. O fy mab anwyl be gefist ti'n fwyd : Neidar lie sly wan[2]: mam cweiriwch fy ngwely Claf iawn yw f'enaid yn ymyl terfynu. 3. O fy mab anwyl be roddi di'th blant : Bendith Duw nefoedd : mam cweiriwch fy ngwely ; Claf iawn yw f'enaid yn ymyl terfynu. 4. O fy mab anwyl be roddi di'th wraig : Cortyn i'w chrogi : mam cweiriwch fy ngwely ; Claf iawn yw f'enaid yn ymyl terfynu[3]. When I took down the words, some five years ago, I had hda jpysgodyn [hunting a fish] instead of hela sgwarnogod[4] [hunting hares]. Neidar lie slywan in the second verse points to a North Walian origin: to pack lly somen into two syllables would be difficult, without mutilating it beyond recognition. 1. 'O whare hae ye been a' day, Lord Donald, my son ? O whare hae ye been a' day, my jollie young man? "I 've been awa courtin : mither, mak my bed sune. For I 'm sick at the heart, and I fain wad lie doun.' 2. 'What wad ye hae for your supper?' etc, 'I've gotten my supper:' etc. 3. 'What did you get to your supper?' etc. 'A dish of sma' fishes: ' etc. 4. 'Whare gat ye the fishes?' etc. 'In my father's black ditches:' etc. 5. "What like were your fishes?' etc. 'Black backs and speckl'd bellies:' etc. 6. 'I fear ye are poison'd' etc. 'Oh yes! I am poison'd:' etc. 7. 'What will ye leave to your father?' etc. 'Baith my houses and land:' etc. 8. 'What will ye leave to your brither?' etc. 'My horse and the saddle: ' etc. 9. "What will ye leave to your sister?' etc. 'Baith my gold box and rings:' etc. 10. 'What will ye leave to your true-love ? etc. 'The tow and the halter, for to hang on yon tree, And lat her hang there, for the poysoning of me.' There are many versions of 'Lord Randal,' and I have only access to three. Possessors of Child's large edition may be able to find closer parallels, but at any rate, there can be no doubt as to the identity of the Welsh ballad. It will be observed that the metric is practically identical with Version B, the only difference being the repetition of the second line, which I look upon as an excrescence. Verses of five lines are rare in Welsh, and of a different type from this, whereas the same Langzeile occurs in rhyming couplets, and is common in quatrain form. I am indebted to my colleague, Mr. David Jenkins, Mus. Bac, for revising my score of the curious and hitherto unpublished tune, and to my brother, Mr. G.M.L. Davies, for sending me a fresh and attested copy of tune and words. __________________________ Footnotes: 1. I hope to publish shortly an account of metrical changes in the sixteenth century, where the data for this statement will be given. 2. slywauy N. Wales metathesis of llysoweti. 3. missing 4 (translation) 1. My dear son, where hast thou been yesterday: hunting hares; mother make my bed, very sick is my soul, near its end. 2. My dear son, what hadst thou for food: a snake instead of an eel; mother, etc. 3. My dear son, what wilt thou give to thy children: the blessing of God of Heaven; mother, etc. 4. My dear son, what wilt thou give to thy wife: a rope to hang her; mother, etc. 5 Spoken W. for ysgyfarnogod. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:28 PM Hi, After checking a bit, I found an earlier version (1926) of the modern "Henry My Son" version in "Songs Collected by Francis M. Collinson" in the Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Vol. 5, No. 1 (Dec., 1946). The father gives Henry poison in this one. Here are Collinson's notes: Miss Phyllis Johnson of Coventry learned " Henry my son" from another child when she was a patient in a children's hospital in 1926. She says she remembered the tune because she liked it, and the words because they excited her curiosity in that Henry, having eaten poisoned berries should have a pain in his head! She has carried the song in her memory for twenty years and sang it to me clearly and with good rhythm. She was not sure whence the child came from whom she learned the song, but imagined it might have been somewhere in the Black Country. HENRY MY SON - Noted from the singing of Miss Phyllis Johnson of Coventry, by Francis M. Collinson. 1. Where have you been all day Henry my son? Where have you been all day, my beloved one? In the green fields, in the green fields; Oh make my bed, I've a pain in my head, and I want to lie down. 2. What have you had to eat, Henry my son? What have you had to eat, my beloved one? "Oh poisoned berries; oh poisoned berries. Oh make my bed, I've a pain in my head, and I want to lie down." 3. Who gave you those to eat, Henry my son? Who gave you those to eat, my beloved one? Father, dear mother; father, dear mother. Oh make my bed, etc." 4. How shall I make your bed, Henry my son? How shall I make your bed, my beloved one? "Deep, long and narrow; deep, long and narrow. Oh make my bed, etc." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 01:36 PM Hi, Jag mentioned George Dunn's version recorded in December, 1971 and gave a link (several posts back). It was recorded by Roy Palmer and appears in Everyman's Book of English Country Songs. The sister poison's Henry which is a twist. The form and text are nearly the same as the Irish version by Harte which was also known by soldiers during WWII (see Wiltshire variant dated 1941.) Henry, My Son- George Dunn, 1971 "Where have you been all day, Henry, my son? Where have you been all day, my beloved one?" "In the meadows, in the meadows Make my bed, there's a pain in my head And I want to lie down and die." "What have you had to eat, Henry my son? What have you had to eat, my beloved one?" "Poisoned berries, poisoned berries Make my bed, there's a pain in my head And I want to lie down and die." "Who gave you poisoned berries?..." 'My sister..." "What will you leave your father?..." "Gold and silver..." "What will you leave your mother?..." "Love and kisses..." "What will you leave your sister?..." "A rope to hang her..." "How shall I make your bed?..." "Long and narrow..." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 12:32 PM Hi, Here are Gilchrist's comments on the Randal name (1907 JFSS): While the poisoning story itself was probably current in Europe at an early period, the following suggestions may be offered as to the reason why the name "Lord Rendal" should be traditionally connected with the ballad in England and Scotland: (1). - Randal III, sixth Earl of Chester, 1181, (died 1232) divorced his first wife, Constance, widow of Geoffrey Plantagenet, and married again, "for which sin, as many men suppose, this Ranulph [Randal] deserved to dye without issuie and to relinquish his honors unto the sonne of his sister." [The quotation is taken from The Catalogue of Hontor, 1610, an old peerage in the writer's possession]. (2). - He was succeeded by his nephew John, whose wife "was infamous for plotting to take away the life of her husband John by poison."-[Ibid.] (a). - Following upon a contemporary belief that Randal left no heir because of his sin in divorcing his first wife and re-marrying, may there not have arisen the story that a young son and heir, child of the second wife, was poisoned by his "stepmother" (i.e. the divorced Constance) at her own house, returning to his mother to die? (This would explain the "Wee Croodlin' Doo" form of the story, with its conjunction of "stepmother " and "nammy," though, at the same time, the "mammy" of the nursery version may simply have been the child's foster-mother or nurse). If, when the real circumstances had somewhat faded from memory, people wished to find a romantic reason for the fact of Randal III's leaving no heir and the earldom thus passing to his nephew, a divine judgment might be the explanation offered by the priest and the scholar, but the common folk would, I think, be much more likely to seek a human agent in the first wife, dishonoured, jealous, and revengeful, and thus to attach to Randal an already existing ballad-story. (It will be remembered that Constance's own son, Prince Arthur, had been done to death). (b). - The fact, or story, that Randal's nephew and successor to the title was poisoned by his own wife may later have become attached to Randal himself by confusion with the (presumptive) poisoning legend about Randal's young son and heir. These suggestions do not, of course, interfere with the circumstance of the Lord Randal story being current in Italy or other countries at a much earlier date. They merely aim at explaining why the hero should be called Lord Randal in the English form of the ballad. (See Chappell's Popular Music, p. 10, for an account of the services English minstrels rendered to Randal, when besieged in 12I2. This (or another) Randal seems to have been early a popular hero, for Longland describes his Friar as much better acquainted with the "rimes of Robinhode and of Randal, erle of Chester," than with his Paternoster)- A. G. G. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 12:13 PM Hi, This is the first documented version with the Randall (Randal) name. It was collected in Suffolk and later sent in a letter dated April 19, 1775 written by Rev. P. Parsons of Wye. Child did not have the Percy Papers when he wrote Volume 1 and the headnotes to Lord Randal. Child took the Randal title from Scott who said that the common Scottish title was "Lord Ronald" as was further documented by Carpenter versions. I've taken the text directly from a copy of Parsons' letter to Percy: Titled, "Ballad," by Parsons: found ESPB in Additions and Corrections in the second volume. Parsons commented: "All the Songs that I have enclosed are Original, at least to me – That one on the other side [Randall my Son], a Friend took from the Spinning Wheel in Suffolk-" There are some minor differences: lines 13 and 16 Child inserts "the," has "sick at the heart" line 23 Child has "I have" line 41 Child has "colour" There are no hyphens in Child's transcription-- all taken out and the incorrect capital letters have been changed: Ballad 1 Where have you been to-day, Randall my Son? Where have you been to-day, my Only Man? “I have been hunting, Mother; - make my bed soon “For I am Sick at heart,- fain wou’d lie down “Dear Sister, hold my head, Dear Mother make my bed “For I am Sick at heart, - fain wou’d lie down 2 What have you eat to-day, Randall my Son? What have you eat to-day, my only man? “I’ve eat an Eel, Mother; - make my Bed soon “For I am sick at heart – fain wou’d lie down “Dear Sister, hold &c 3 Who gave you Eels to-day, Randall my Son? Who gave you Eels to-day, my Only Man? “My own Sweetheart, Mother, - make my bed soon “For I am Sick at heart – fain wou’d lie down “Dear Sister, hold &c 4 What was the Color of it, Randall my Son? What was the Color of it, my only man? “It was neither green, grey, blue, nor black “But speckled on the Back – make my bed soon “For I am Sick at heart – fain would lie down “Dear Sister, hold &c 5 Where Shall I make your Bed, Randall my Son? Where shall I make your Bed, my Only Man? “In the Church-yard, Mother, make my bed soon “For I am Sick at heart – fain would lie down “Dear Sister, hold &c 6 What will you leave her then, Randall my Son? What will you leave her then, my only man? “A Halter to hang her, Mother – make my bed soon “For I am Sick at heart – fain would lie down “Dear Sister, hold &c * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:47 AM Hi Jag, Dunn's version is a slower version than Frank Harte's but they have the same text (with variations), phrasing, form etc-- so I'd say they are the same. It's Henry in Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 69 (c. 1827). From the recitation of Margaret Bain, in the parish of Blackford, Perthshire. 1 'What's become of your hounds, King Henrie, my son? What's become of your hounds, my pretty little one?' Of the Henry name Gilchrist comments (1907 JFSS): "The occurrence of the name "King Henry" in the ballad more commonly known as "Lord Rendal" is perhaps due to a reminiscence of Henry I's death from eating a dish of lanmpreys, on his return from a hunting expedition. It seems quite possible that a story arose that the dish had been tampered with, or that the "lampreys" were euphemistically named, and hence that the king died of poison, not simple gluttony. A somewhat similar poisoning circumstance in connection with the death of King John is recorded in the old chronicle which relates that a certain monk poisoned, with the venom from a toad, a wassail-cup, of which the king drank and thereafter swelled and died. See Scott's Bordler Minstrelsy, note to "Lord Rendal." It is also imaginable that the "King Henry" referred to may have been the "Young King Henry" who was crowned in the lifetime of his father, Henry II, and died of "a violent fever and flix" while fighting against him, in France. There is a possibility that poison was suspected in his case, also; but it seems much more likely that the person who first introduced the name of Henry into the ballad had in mind the monarch who succumbed to the dish of lampreys." It's Henry in Germany late 1700s, early 1800s. See: the A version in Deutscher Liederhort by Ludwig Christian Erk, 1856, it begins: A. Schlangenköchin. [Snake- cook] "Wo bist du denn so lang gewesn, Heinerich, mein lieber Sohn?" ["Where have you been for so long, Henry, my dear son?"] "Ich bin bei meinem Feinslieb chen gewesn, Frau Mutter mein, o weh!" ["I've been to my sweetheart's, my mother, oh my!"] * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:17 AM Hi, I'll post this last Italian traditional version of "L'Avvelenato" for comparison since it has a translation: [Appendix]: Dove andashti ieri sera? by A. Martin Freeman and Lucy E. Broadwood from Journal of the Folk-Song Society, Vol. 5, No. 19 (Jun., 1915), pp. 247-248 DOVE ANDASHTI IERI SERA? SUNG BY DOMINICA PERSI (IN SERVICE). Noted by A. Martin Freeman FROM PIPERNO, ROMAGNA, ITALY, FEB. 18th, 1915. w/Music 1. "Dove andashti ieri sera, Bela brunetta, di, rosa frese' e rosa meschi? Dove andashti ieri sera?" "A farla una scena, Bella brunetta, di, rosa frese' e rosa meschi? A farla una scena." 2. "Chi cena fu la Variant of last phrases. A farla una scena. Dove andashti ieri sera? 2 *Che cena fu la tua? Bella brunetta, etc." "Una foglia d'insalata. Bella brunetta, etc. Una foglia d'insalata." 3 "Ch' e cena avvelanata!" [as before] "Andade a chiamra lo notaro." 4 Che t' e le fa lo notaro? "Pe' fa lo teshtamento." 5 "Che ce lassa a patto ?" ". . . ." 6 "Che ce lassa a mammada?" "Lo bastone della vecchiaja." TRANSLATION. 1 "Where did you go last night, Pretty brunette? Tell me, fresh rose, and poor little rose. Where did you go last night ?" "I went to a supper, Pretty brunette, etc. I went to a supper." 2 "What did you have for supper " [as before] "A leaf of salad." 3 "Which is a poisoned supper!" "Go and call the notary." 4 "What is the notary for?" "To make my will." 5 "What do you leave to your father?" " . . . ." 6 "What do you leave to your mother?" "The staff of old age." Asked whether there might not be different words for the refrain in the second half of the verse, the singer answered that she thought she had dictated it correctly. When asked why she said "a farla" and not "a fare una cena," she answered "Because it is past." "Patto" and "mammada" are for "tuo padre" and "tua mamma." Similarly, in another of her songs, "maridomo "stood for" mio marito." I must leave it to those who may be skilled in the dialect of Piperno, Romagna, to explain other difficulties. An obvious emendation is to read "scena" (in the sense of "cena") wherever the word occurs. But as I am not competent to edit the text, consisting of dialect infected with literary Italian, I have not touched it. -A. M. F. "L'Avvelenato" of Dr. Bolza's collecting begins: "Dove si sta jersira, Figliuol mio caro, fiorito e gentil? Dove st std jersira?" "Sen sta dalla mia dama; Signera Mama, mio core sta mal! Sdn std dalla mia dama; Ohime! ch'io moro, ohime!" and a Venetian version, also quoted by Child, (from whose Ballads the above verse is taken), gives a very similar refrain to the second half of the stanza. Probably, therefore, Dominica Persi's repetition of "Bella brunetta, etc.," has replaced some forgotten words of the same kind as those beginning "Signora Mama."-L. E. B. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: GUEST,jag Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:15 AM Apologies if this doesn't belong, but as the "Henry my son" variant has been mentioned is this relevant Henry my son, George Dunn, Staffordshire,1971 ? It has a different set of 'contents' to the Irish version above. When does 'Henry my son' first appear? Do we know where the stripped down 'green and yeller' parody as sung by Pete Seeger came from? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:46 AM Hi, Curiously, and as could be expected, the same modern Irish version was disseminated during WWII and it was sung on the march by men of a battalion of the Wiltshire regiment stationed at and near Devizes in 1941 (see: Lord Randal My Son by J. H. P. Pafford Folklore, Vol. 63, No. 1 (Mar., 1952), pp. 26-29.). Here's the first stanza: 1. Where have you been all day Henry my son? Where have you been all day my beloved one? Fields, dear mother, fields, dear mother O make my bed for I've pains in my head and I want to lie down. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 09:30 AM Hi, This "pretty boy" Irish text is from 1848. It's included in the following complete text with notes from Joyce 1909 in his Old Irish Folk Music and Songs. At the end Joyce also translates a stanza of the Gaelic version I posted earlier in the thread: 812. WHERE WERE YOU ALL THE DAY, MY OWN PRETTY BOY? This ballad, in various forms, and song to different airs, is found all over Europe. In all cases the subject of the ballad is a victim to poison. In England it is "King Henry, my son," who comes home to his mother to die of poisoned food given him by his sweetheart. (Ballad recently published by Miss Lucy Broadwood in "English Traditional Songs and Carols.") In Scotland it is "Lord Ronald" (for which see "Wood's Songs of Scotland "). In Germany it is "Grandmother Adder-Cook"; and there are versions in Italian, Swedish, Dutch, Magyar, and Wendish. We have it in Ireland also, and in two distinct versions; one in the Irish language, the other in P'nglish. The Irish ballad, as recently taken down in the Co. Roscommon by the Rev. Father John MacDermott from an old man named Rogers, has been published with an interesting notice by Dr. Douglas Hyde, in "Eriu," ii. 77. As to the English version: — I took down both words and music about the year 1848 from Peggy Cudmore, a little peasant girl of twelve or thirteen years of age, endowed with extraordinary musical taste and talent. I gave both to Dr. Petrie; and a version of the air will be found with my name in the Stanford-Petrie collection (No. 330). My copies are still among the Petrie papers, which are inaccessible to me; but I remember the following four verses and the whole of the air, which I give here, and which differs somewhat from the setting in Stanford-Petrie. Dr. Hyde informs us that a version of the English-Irish ballad was taken down in 1881 from a woman named Ellen Healy, who learned it from a Kerry girl in 1868: and I find the three verses he gives (in "Eriu") are almost identical with Peggy Cudmore's version. This air was first rescued and written down by me, and words and air are now brought together for the first time. I should also remark that I find, by a brief reference on a stray leaf of the Pigot collection, that Mr. Pigot had a copy of the air in one of his books; but I have not seen it. Peggy Cudmore's version here. "Where were you all the day, my own pretty boy? Where were you all the day, my truelove and joy?" "I was fishing and fowling: mother, dress my bed soon; There's a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down." "What did you get for dinner, my own pretty boy? What did you get for dinner, my truelove and joy?" "Bread, mutton, and poison : mother, dress my bed soon; There's a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down." "What will you leave your mother, my own pretty boy? What will you leave your mother, my truelove and joy?" "A coach and four horses : mother, dress my bed soon; There's a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down." (He goes on— as questioned by his mother— leaving various bequests to his relations, till, in the last verse, he comes to his wife, who had given him the poisoned mutton.) " What will you leave your married wife, my own pretty boy? What will you leave your married wife, my truelove and joy?" "A long rope to hang her: mother, dress my bed soon; There's a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down." The translation of the first verse of the Irish version, as given by Dr. Hyde in "Eriu," is:— "What was in the dinner you got, my fair-haired heart-pulse and my treasure? What was in the dinner you got, thou flower of young men?" "An eel that Nuala gave me with deadly poison in it; Oh, my head! — it is paining me, and I want to lie down." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 08:51 AM Hi, In "The Complete Collection of Irish Music," Volume 1 (1902) George Petrie gives a melody for the ballad "Where, were you all the day my own pretty Boy" given him from Joyce. The modern Irish adaptation of Henry my Son follows. This one is by Frank Harte, "Dublin Street Songs" listen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPRVpGX9Npw "Henry my Son," Irish street ballad adapted by Frank Harte, 1967. 1. "Where have you been all day, Henery me son? Where have you been all day, my beloved one?" "Away on the meadow, away on the meadow, Make my bed I’ve a pain in me head and I want to lie down." 2. And what did you have to eat? Poison beans, 3. And what will you leave your mother? A woolen vest, 4. And what will you leave your father? A watch and chain, 5. And what will you leave your brother? A blue suit 6. And what will you leave your children? The key of heaven, 7. And what will you leave your sweetheart? A rope to hang her, * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 08:14 AM Hi, One of the earliest collected verses of the Irish-Scotch "pretty boy" versions appears in "Poems" by Mary Boddington, 1836, p. 313. She gives only one stanza and writes several more. According to Boddington: "The first verse belongs to an old ballad, of which I could never find any more; the air, without being of remarkable beauty, is soft and characteristic: I do not know its Irish name." "Oh, where were you all day?" Irish--Air "Oh, where were you all day, My own pretty boy? Oh, where were you all day, My comfort and joy? Fishing and fowling, mother: make my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart, and I fain would lie down." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 09:56 PM Hi, Grieg-Duncan E is melody no text and F and G are single stanzas of very similar text with melody: F. Lord Ronald- sung by Mrs. Margaret Gillespie (b. 1841), of New Deer, sister of Rev. Duncan. "What had ye for supper, Lord Ronald, my son, What had ye for supper, my jolly young man?" "A plate o' black fishes, mother mak my bed soon, For I'm weary wi huntin, an' fain wad lie doon." G. Lord Ronald- sung by Beatrice Alexander of Uday "What had ye for supper, Lord Donald, my son, What had ye for supper, my jolly young man?" "A plate o' black fishes, mother mak my bed soon, For I'm weary weary wanderin, an' fain wad lie doon." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Lighter Date: 24 Jul 18 - 09:49 PM My guess is that "floonery" is an error of some kind for the sensible "flooery." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 09:27 PM Hi, Greig-Duncan D, single stanza with music, was sung by Mrs. Lyall who also recorded for Carpenter. It's a middle stanza (cf. Alex Robb). D. "Lord Ronald," sung by Mrs. A. Lyall (b. July 18, 1869) of Moss Croft, Lyne of Skene, Aberdeenshire. She got her ballads from her mother, Mrs Ella Roy, nee Florence. Ella Florence's father was a fiddler and singer. "I doot[1] ye are poison'd, Lord Ronald, my son? I doot ye are poison'd, my jolly young man?" "Oh yes, I am poison'd, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart and I fain wad lie doon." _______________ 1. fear |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 08:56 PM Hi, Here's Greig-Duncan C which was taken from Buchan singers. Single stanza with music. C. "Oh Mak' My Bed Easy." Sung by George Riddell, shoemaker and fiddler from Rosehearty, Aberdeenshire. Collected Greig about 1907. Oh mak' my bed easy Oh mak' my bed soon For oh but I'm weary And fain wad lie doon. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 06:24 PM Hi, Thanks Steve, good info, there is flowery fields in a Stewart version but I haven't looked at the newer Scottish versions yet. I thought of the famous battle at "Flodden Field" near the Scot border which is somewhat similar. This is Greig Duncan A (thanks for sending) and it's an Irish/Scotch version that was learned in Aberdeenshire which probably dates conservatively back to the late 1800s. It has only the "will" stanzas. The title, "Henry, my son" is still sung in Ireland-- the identifier is "my pretty one." Henry, my Son- sung by James Matthew Brown and Miss Jeannie Brown, of Glasgow, learned in Aberdeenshire. Collected Duncan around 1907. 1 "What'll ye leave to your mother, Henry, my son, What'll ye leave to your mother, my pretty one?" "I leave her all my jewels, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and I fain wid lie doon, For I'm sick to the heart, and I fain wid lie doon." 2 "What'll ye leave to your father, Henry, my son? What'll ye leave to your father, my pretty one?" "I leave him all my land, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and I fain wid lie doon." 3 "What'll ye leave to your brother, Henry, my son? What'll ye leave to your brother, my pretty one?" "I will leave him all my money, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and I fain wid lie doon." 4 "What'll ye leave to your sister, Henry, my son? What will ye leave to your sister, my pretty one?" "My gold watch and gold chain, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and I fain wid lie doon." 5 "What'll ye leave to your sweetheart, Henry, my son? What'll ye leave to your sweetheart, my pretty one?" "The rope and the halter, that hangs on yon tree, And it's there she shall die for poisonin' of me." Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Steve Gardham Date: 24 Jul 18 - 06:15 PM floonery A long shot but there is well-known Highland song by Dr. Norman McLeod called 'Farewell to Fiunary'. Among other places it is given by Ford in 'Vagabond Songs' p208. He states 'By virtue of use and wont, 'Fiunary' to the Western Highlander is just another name for home.' However Aberdeenshire is on the opposite side of the country. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 05:48 PM Hi, This is from Keith Greig's Last Leaves, p. 13-14 and represent possibly an earlier generation or two-- however, the text is the same, the title slightly changed to Lord Donald. Only one version from Last Leaves has "[Lord] Henry" which is Keith Grieg 3 by James M. Brown (one stanza but Greig Duncan A, 5 stanzas) which are only the "will" stanzas. Lord Donald- recited by Bell Roberston of New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire. Collected by Grieg about 1906. 1 "Where have ye been a-huntin', Lord Donald, my son? Where have ye been a-huntin', my jolly young man?" "Oh yes, I've been a- hunting, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, an' so fain would lie doon." 2 "Have you got ony supper, Lord Donald, my son? Have you got ony supper, my jolly young man?" "O yes, I've got supper; mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, an' so fain would lie doon." 3 "What kind was the supper, Lord Donald, my son, What kind was the supper, my jolly young man?" "A dish of small fishes, mother mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, an' so fain would lie doon." 4. "What kind was the fishes, Lord Donald my son? What kind was the fishes, my jolly young man?" "Black backs and speckled bellies, mother make my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, an' so fain would lie doon." 5. "O where did you dine, Lord Donald, my son? O where did you dine, my jolly young man?" "I dined with my sweetheart; mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, an' so fain would lie doon." 6 "I think ye are poisoned, Lord Donald, my son, I think ye are poisoned, my jolly young man," "O yes, I am poisoned; mother make my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, an' so fain would lie doon." 7 "What will ye leave to your father, Lord Donald my son What will ye leave to your father, my jolly young man?" "My land and my horses, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, an' so fain wad lie doon." 8 "What will ye leave to your mother, Lord Donald, my son? What will ye leave to your mother, my jolly young man?" My gold and my silver, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, an' so I fain would lie doon." 9 "What will ye leave to your sister, Lord Donald, my son? What will ye leave to your sister, my jolly young man?" "My gold watch and gold chain, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, an' so fain would lie doon." 10 "What will ye leave to your sweetheart, Lord Donald, my son? What will ye leave to your sweetheart, my jolly young man?" "A tow an' the halter, that hangs on yon tree, That's what she'll get for poisonin' me." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 04:59 PM Hi, The last two are versions of Child 12 are James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/34, Disc Side 034, 00:00 Lord Randal- sung Mrs (Margaret) Vass - no text transcribed and it's hard to hear and sounds like another song. And--- James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/B, p. 11502. Lord Ronald sung by Mrs John Baird. No text just the melody. __________________________ Some brief conclusions and I'll be working on other British versions and can perhaps better comment on how they fit into the Scottish timeline. Lord Ronald is the overwhelming favorite name for the poisoned one and title. The location is usually vague: he's gone hunting or wandering- or, is at his sweethearts. Specific locations includes "wildwoods," "green meadow" "floonery (flowery?) fields" or the "woods." Many of the versions do not establish that Lord Ronald has gone to his sweetheart's (some do in the first stanza) until it's discovered when his mother asks when he got his dinner. He eats a variety of poisoned fish (sometimes black or "black fishes wi spreckled bellies") and eels which are usually "eels boiled in brew." Only two versions have his bloodhounds missing because they've eaten the poison and swelled then died. As soon as it's established that he's eaten poison fish/eels and is dying, he makes his will giving his father, mother, brother and sister (usually in that order but it varies) different gifts. The gifts are all fairly standard. His sweetheart usually received a rope (tow) and a halter and will be hung on yon tree but sometimes she is poisoned then if she survives, is to be hung. The 23 versions posted here are Scottish except one version is from the US (seems Scottish) and another (no source given) from Sweden (Den Illas Testemente). Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 04:11 PM Hi, I finally found the Cruickshank version, maybe had name wrong. It's located at James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/K, p. 05606. This is one of only two Carpenter versions with the bloodhound stanza- it also has "wildwoods" which is also unusual. Lord Ronald- sung by W. C. Cruickshank of Cortes Gardens, Lonmay, Aberdeenshire. Learned about 1881 from his sister. 1. "Oh whar hae ye been, Lord Ronald my son, Oh whar hae ye been, my handsome young man?" "I hae been to the wildwoods, mother, mak my bed soon, I am weary wi huntin and fain would lie doon." 2. "Whar got ye your dinner, Lord Ronald my son, Whar got ye your dinner, my handsome young man?" "I dined wi my truelove, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm weary wi huntin and fain would lie doon." 3. "What got ye to[at] dinner, Lord Ronald my son, What got ye to dinner, my handsome young man?" "I eels boiled in brew, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm weary wi huntin and fain would lie doon." 4."What became o your bloodhounds, Lord Ronald my son, What became o your bloodhounds, my handsome young man?" "O they swelled and thye died, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm weary wi huntin and fain would lie doon." 5. "I'm afraid ye are poisoned, Lord Ronald my son, I'm afraid ye are poisoned, my handsome young man?" "O yes, I am poisoned, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart and fain would lie doon." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 03:23 PM Hi, Steve-- her versions from her mother have been old (see Two Sisters), this phrase reminded me of "flowery fields" from the Stewart (Aberdeen) line, I guess it was an instinctual comment, I'll have to look at it further, glad you pointed that out. Following are two single stanza Carpenter versions with music: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/6/5/B, p. 09624 Lord Ronald- sung by Mrs. Isabella Reed of Port Gordon, Banffshire. 1. "Where have you been huntin Lord Ronald, my son? Where have you been hunting, my handsome young man?" "O, I've been a-hunting, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm weary wie huntin', and fain wad lie doon." * * * * Very similar text, one stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/Q, p. 08592 Lord Ronald- sung by a Woman singer (soft voice) given by Mrs Andrew Thompson of Spey Bay, Banffshire. 1. "Where have you been hunting, Lord Ronald, my son? Where have you been hunting, my handsome young man?" "O, I've been a-hunting, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm weary wie wandrin', and fain wad lie doon."
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Steve Gardham Date: 24 Jul 18 - 03:19 PM What are 'floonery fields' and why is it archaic? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 02:56 PM Hi, From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07509, this version has an archaic sounding phrase "huntin' in floonery fields," which makes it seem older. The first two stanzas have "handsome young man" while the rest have "jolly young man" which suggests a composite. Lord Ronald- sung by Mrs Mary Stewart Robertson of 6 Auchreddie Road, New Deer, Aberdeenshire, Scotland. Learned from her mother. 1. "O faur hae ye been a' the day, Lord Ronald, my son? O faur hae ye been a' the day, my handsome young man?" "A huntin' in floonery fields, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the hert an' fain would lie doon." 2. "Fat got ye for supper, Lord Ronald, my son? Fat got ye for supper, my handsome young man?" "A dish o sma fishes, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the hert an' fain would lie doon." 3. "Fat color wis that fishes, Lord Ronald, my son? Fat color wis that fishes, my jolly young man?" "They were reid purple yellow wi lang spackled bellies, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the hert an' fain would lie doon." 4. "I doot ye are poisoned, Lord Ronald, my son? I doot ye are poisoned, my jolly young man?" "Oh yes, I am poisoned, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the hert an' fain would lie doon." 5. "What'll ye leave tee your father, Lord Ronald, my son? What'll ye leave tee your brother, my jolly young man?" "My houses an' lands, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the hert an' fain would lie doon." 6. "What'll ye leave tee your brother, Lord Ronald, my son? What'll ye leave tee your brother, my jolly young man?" "My bright gowd stars, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the hert an' fain would lie doon." 7 "What'll ye leave tee your sister, Lord Ronald, my son? What'll ye leave tee your sister, my jolly young man?" "Gowd earrings, gowd brooches, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the hert an' fain would lie doon." 8. "What'll ye leave tee your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son? What'll ye leave tee your sweetheart, my jolly young man?" "The block and the rope, that hung on the tree, An' cold water an' poison that she's gied tee me, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm weary at the hert an' fain would lie doon." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 02:14 PM Hi, There is a version in Carpenter's Collection of Den Lillas Testemente or The Child's Last Will, (VWML Song Index SN23926) which is the Swedish version. The text is simiar to the two versions I posted but it's clearly different: https://www.vwml.org/search?q=%20Den%20Lillas%20Testaments&is=1 If anyone knows the source please let me know, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 12:38 PM Hi, The version Grieg printed in his newspaper article c. 1910 (Folk Songs of the North East, p. 112) is: Lord Ronald- sung by William Ross of Old Schoolhouse, Balquhindochy. It was transcribed several posts back. There are some very minor edits. This new transcript is from: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/Q, pp. 08583-08584 Lord Ronald- sung by William Morrison of Wardhead, Bieldside, Aberdeenshire, Scotland. Learned c. 1927 from Bailie at Hill of Phiddis, Udney. 1 "Oh, where have you been to, Lord Ronald, my son? Oh where have you been to, my gallant young man?" "I've been away hunting, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon." 2 "Have ye gotten supper, Lord Ronald, my son? "Have ye gotten supper, my gallant young man?" "Yes, I've got supper; mother, make my bed soon, For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon." 3 "What had ye for supper, Lord Ronald, my son? What had ye for supper, my gallant young man?" "I've had a few fishes, mother make my bed soon, For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon." 4 "What kind were the fishes, Lord Ronald, my son? What kind were the fishes, my gallant young man?" "They were black backed an' spreckled bellied, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon." 5 "I doot ye've been poisoned, Lord Ronald, my son, I doot ye've been poisoned, my gallant young man," "Yes, I've poisoned; mother make my bed soon, For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon." 6 "What d'ya leave to your father, Lord Ronald my son What d'ya you leave to your father, my gallant young man?" "My houses in London, mother make my bed soon, For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon." 7 "What d'ye leave to your mother, Lord Ronald, my son? What d'ye leave to your mother, my gallant young man?" My purse and my savings, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon." 8. "What d'ye leave to your brother, Lord Ronald, my son? What d'ye leave to your brother, my gallant young man?" "Yon horse in yon stables, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon." 9. "What d'ye leave to your sister, Lord Ronald, my son? What d'ye leave to your sister, my gallant young man?" "My gold watch and chain; mother, make my bed soon, For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon." 10 "What d'ye leave to your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son? What d'ye leave to your sweetheart, my gallant young man?" "Yon rope and yon halter, that hangs on yon tree, An' that's what she'll get for the poisoning of me." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 11:52 AM Hi, Two stanzas with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/Q, p. 08577 Lord Randle- sung by Mrs Jeanie T. Durward of Viewfield, St Fergus, Aberdeenshire; dated 1932. "Where have you been, Lord Randle, my son? Where have you been, my handsome young man?" "I'se been a- huntin', mother make my bed soon, I'm weary wis huntin' and fain wad lie doon." "What got ye for dinner, Lord Randle, my son? What got ye for dinner, my handsome young man?" "I got eels boiled in brew, mother make my bed soon, I'm weary wis huntin' and fain wad lie doon. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 10:59 AM Hi, Yes Steve, there are a number of versions by the same informant that are in Greig-Duncan (Lyle), Greig-Keith and Carpenter. Greig-Keith (Last Leaves) only gives one full text, for this ballad its Bell Roberston's. The Alex Robb text in Greig-Keith is melody with only one stanza of text. There are differences-- some are quite different as the informant has learned from other versions. The Willie Mathieson version (first posted in this thread) is also in Scottish School of Music (1952) collection so he was around for all as were a few other informants. The other publication with Grieg's versions is Grieg's newspaper articles circa 1910, which you have. Some newspaper versions are reprinted in Carpenter too. The newspaper article versions also vary. * * * * Single stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/Q, p. 08575 Lord Ronald- sung by William Duncan, who may be the husband of Mrs. William Duncan, who is from Tories, Oyne, by Turriff, Aberdeenshire. Dated c. 1931. Where have ye been a-huntin, Lord Ronald, my son? Where have ye been a-huntin, my handsome young man?" Down in yon green meadow[1], mother make my bed soon, I'm weary, weary wanderin' and fain wid lie doon. __________________ 1. original has "meadey" * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Steve Gardham Date: 24 Jul 18 - 10:42 AM What would make a really useful study is where Carpenter collected from Grieg's informants, any differences in the versions recorded, with the 25 year interval. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 10:36 AM Hi, Single stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/6/6/G, p. 10079 Lord Randal- sung by Peter Christie of 21 Shore Head, Stonehaven about 1931. 1 "O where hae ye been, Lord Randal, my son? And where hae ye been, my handsome young man?" "I've been at the greenwoods, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary wi' hunting, and fain would lie down." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 10:27 AM Hi, Fragment from the US from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07514. Fairly close to the Scottish versions. Lord Randall- sent in by Evelyn Grant of Plantersville, Miss. Learned from her mother Mrs. J.S. Grant, no date but around 1938 1 "O where have you been, Lord Randall, my son? O where have you been, my handsome young man?" "I've been to the woods, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary with hunting, and fain would lie down." 2 "Where did you get your dinner, Lord Randall, my son? Where did you get your dinner, my handsome young man?" "I dined with my truelove, Mother make my bed soon, For I'm weary with hunting, and fain would lie down." 3 "What did ye have for dinner, Lord Randall, my son? What did ye have for dinner, my handsome young man?" "Eels fried in butter, Mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary with hunting, and fain would lie down." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 10:13 AM Hi, Fragment from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07507, has an unusual last line. Young Donald- sung by Mrs A. Cameron of Keeth, Scotland, 1931. 1. "What got you for supper, young Donald, my son? What got you for supper, my gallant young man?" "I'm afraid I've got poison, mother make my bed soon, For life is a burden, an' I'd fain lay it doon." 2. "What'll you leave to your father, young Donald my son What'll you leave to your father, my gallant young man?" "My gold and my silver, mother, make my bed soon, For life is a burden, an' I'd fain lay it doon." 3. "What'll ye leave to your brothers, young Donald, my son? What'll ye leave to your brothers, my gallant young man?" "My boxes and property, mother, make my bed soon, For life is a burden, an' I'd fain lay it doon." 4. "What'd ye leave to your sweetheart, young Donald, my son? What'd ye leave to your sweetheart, my gallant young man?" "The rope an' the gallows, that hangs on yon tree, And she will get that for the poisonin' o' me." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 09:56 AM Hi, From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07506 Lord Ronald- sung by Jean Esselmont of Cuminestown, Scotland, 1931. 1 "Where have you been, Lord Ronald, my son? Where have you been, my gallant young man?" "I've been to see my sweetheart, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain wid lie doon." 2 "What had you for supper, Lord Ronald, my son? What had you for supper, my gallant young man?" "A plate of nice fishes, mother make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain wid lie doon." 4 "What kind of fishes, Lord Ronald, my son? What kind of fishes, my gallant young man?" "Black backs and white bellies, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain wid lie doon." 4 "I fear you've been poisoned, Lord Ronald, my son, I fear you've been poisoned, my gallant young man," "Yes mother, I've been poisoned; O make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain wid lie doon." 5 "What'll you leave to your father, Lord Ronald my son What'll you leave to your father, my gallant young man?' "My horses and stables, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain wid lie doon." 6. "What'll you leave to your mother, Lord Ronald, my son? What'll you leave to your mother, my gallant young man?" My purse and my silver, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain wid lie doon." 7. "What'll you leave to your brother, Lord Ronald, my son? What'll you leave to your brother, my gallant young man?" "My gold watch and chain, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain wid lie doon." 8. "What'll you leave to your sister, Lord Ronald, my son? What'll you leave to your sister, my gallant young man?" "My books and my bible, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain wid lie doon." 9. "What'll you leave to your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son? What'll you leave to your sweetheart, my gallant young man?" "There's a rope in yon stable, and she'll hang on yon tree, That's what she'll get for the poisoning o' me." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 09:34 AM Hi, The text/music of Lord Ronald sung by W. C. Cruikshank of Cortes Gardens, Lonmay, Scotland is missing. It is listed in the James Madison Carpenter database but is not in the VWML. From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07505. The following version has the bloodhound stanza, rare among Carpenter versions. Lord Ronald- sung by Hector Campbell of Ythanwells, Aberdeenshire, Scotland about 1931. 1 "O have you been hunting, Lord Ronald, my son? O have you been hunting, my handsome young man?" "O yes I've been hunting, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wanderin', and I fain wid lie doon." 2 "O who were you with, Lord Ronald, my son? O who were you with, my handsome young man?" "I've been with my sweetheart, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary wi' huntin', and fain wid lie doon." 3 "What had ye for your dinner, Lord Ronald, my son? What had ye for your dinner, my handsome young man?" "I had for my dinner, fried eels in a pan, For I'm weary wi' huntin', and fain wid lie doon." 4 "What became of your bloodhounds, Lord Ronald, my son? What became of your bloodhounds, my handsome young man?" "They swelled up and they died, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary wi' the huntin', and fain wid lie doon." 5 "I afraid you've been poisoned, Lord Ronald, my son, I afraid you've been poisoned, my handsome young man," "O yes, I've been poisoned; mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary wi the huntin', and fain wid lie doon." 6 "What leave you to your mother, Lord Ronald my son What leave you to your mother, my handsome young man?' "I leave to my mother, my houses and land, But I'm weary wi' the huntin', and fain wid lie doon." 7. "What leave ye to your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son? What leave ye to your sweetheart, my handsome young man?" "She'll get arsenic and water, the thing she gie me, And if that dis nae sair her, she can hang on a tree." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 09:05 AM Hi, From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07503, recorded melody also in in Keith/Greig. This is Greig-Duncan B, c. 1907 collected by Greig. Lord Ronald- sung by Alexander Robb of New Deer, Aberdeenshire, Scotland about 1931. 1 "Where have you been a' day, Lord Ronald, my son? Where have you been a' day, my gallant young man?" "O I've been a- hunting, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm wearied, wearied wandering, and fain would lie doon." 2 "What got ye tee your supper, Lord Ronald, my son? What got ye tee your supper, my gallant young man?" "Black fish wi white bellies, mother make my bed soon, For I'm wearied, wearied wandering, and fain would lie doon." 3. "You're poisoned, you're poisoned Lord Ronald, my son, You're poisoned, you're poisoned, my gallant young man[1]," ["O yes, I am poisoned; mother make my bed soon, For I'm wearied, wearied wandering, and fain would lie doon."] 4 "What'll ye leave tee your brother, Lord Ronald my son What'll ye leave tee your brother, my gallant young man?' "My houses and lands, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm wearied, wearied wandering, and fain would lie doon." 5 "What'll ye leave tee your sister, Lord Ronald, my son? What'll ye leave tee your sister, my gallant young man?" My books and my Bibles, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm wearied, wearied wandering, and fain would lie doon." 6 "What'll ye leave tee your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son? What'll ye leave tee your sweetheart, my gallant young man?" "The tow and the halter, that hangs on yon tree, And well does she deserve it for the poisoning o' me." For the poisoning o' me, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm wearied wi' wandering, and fain would lie doon." _______________ 1. I've added an approximation of the two missing lines which follow. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 08:47 AM Hi, Fragment with music from: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07502. Extended last stanza. Lord Ronald- sung by Miss Elsie Miln of The Cottage, Kennethmont, Scotland, about 1931. 1 "What ails you, what ails you, Lord Ronald, my son? What ails you, Lord Ronald, my jolly young man?" "O mother, I'm poisoned you'll mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the hert, an' I'd fain lie doon." 2 "What got ye for supper, Lord Ronald, my son? "What got ye for supper, my jolly young man?" "A dish o' small fishes, mother mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the hert, an' I'd fain lie doon." 3 "What'll ye leave tee your brother, Lord Ronald my son What'll ye leave tee your brother, my jolly young man? "My hooses an' lands, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the hert, an' I'd fain lie doon." 4 "What'll ye leave tee your sister, Lord Ronald, my son? What'll ye leave tee your sister, my jolly young man?" My horses and my carriage, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the hert, an' I'd fain lie doon." 5. "What'll ye leave tee your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son? What'll ye leave tee your sweetheart, my jolly young man?" "A tow an' a halter, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the hert, an' I'd fain lie doon." 6. "A tow an' a halter, for tee hang on a tree, A tow an' a halter for the poisoning o' me." "A tow an' a halter, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the hert, an' I'd fain lie doon." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 24 Jul 18 - 08:32 AM Hi, From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07501. This was the version Grieg printed in his newspaper article c. 1910 (Folk Songs of the North East, p. 112). Lord Ronald- sung by William Ross of Old Schoolhouse, Balquhindochy, by Turriff, Aberdeenshire, Scotland. Collected by Carpenter about 1931. 1 "Where have you been Lord Ronald, my son? Where have you been, my jolly young man?" "I've been a- hunting, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon." 2 "And have you got supper, Lord Ronald, my son? "And have you got supper, my jolly young man?" "O yes, I've got supper; mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon." 3 "What got you for supper, Lord Ronald, my son? What got you for supper, my jolly young man?" "A dish of small fishes, mother make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon." 4 "What like were those fishes, Lord Ronald, my son? What like were those fishes, my jolly young man?" "Yellow backs an' sprackled bellies; mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon." 5 "I fear you are poisoned, Lord Ronald, my son, I fear you are poisoned, my jolly young man," "O yes, I am poisoned; mother make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon." 6 "[What] will you leave to your brother, Lord Ronald my son [What] will you leave to your brother, my jolly young man?' "My gold watch an' gold chain, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon." 7 "[What] will ye leave to your sister, Lord Ronald, my son? [What] will ye leave to your sister, my jolly young man?" My purse and my silver, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon." 8. "[What] will ye leave to your mother, Lord Ronald, my son? What will ye leave to your mother, my jolly young man?" "My house and my rents mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon." 9. "[What] will ye leave to your father, Lord Ronald, my son? [What] will ye leave to your father, my jolly young man?" "My horse an' my stable; mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon." 10 "[What] will ye leave to your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son? [What] will ye leave to your sweetheart, my jolly young man?" "Yon tow an' yon halter, that hangs on yon tree, An' that's what she gets for the poisoning o' me." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richard Mellish Date: 23 Jul 18 - 04:18 PM > the form is remarkably similar in each language. Remarkably similar indeed, with random variations in the details, for example the first Swedish one above having the interrogation by the stepmother and the poisoning by the nurse! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Steve Gardham Date: 23 Jul 18 - 03:57 PM Okay so the details vary somewhat and the narrative is very slim, it being all dialogue with lots of re-iteration, but it doesn't matter what language it turns up in the form is remarkably similar in each language. Off hand I can't think of another international ballad that does this. The norm is for ballads in different languages to use a common story or to have motifs in common. Remarkable! Perhaps another candidate would be 'Maid Freed from the Gallows'. I would go as far as to offer this ballad has possibly inspired the other 'will making' ballads like 'What is that Blood', 'Lizzie Wan'. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 23 Jul 18 - 02:11 PM Hi, This is Swedish version from Ostergothland in 1837 (my translation below). I've fixed the notes some but there are still errors from google translate. From: Svenska fornsånger, en samling utg. af A.I. Arwidsson. 3 deler by Svenska fornsånger, 1837 88. Den Lillas Testamente Jemte melodit fran Ostergothland. — Uppfinningen och anord- niogen af denna tradition ar markbart olik den som forekommer bland Svenska Folk-Visor, III, 13. P2 sednast namde stalle uppgifves "dotter liten kind" hafva blifvit forgiftad, vid ett besok hos sin amma; uti nedanfore meddelade slag verkslalles detta hos brodern af bennes amma och styfmoder. Ofvannamnde Svenska folkvisa ar ofversatt af Studach, i Schwedische Volksbarfe, s. 98 samt af Mohnike, bland Volkslieder der Schweden, I, 5. — Diktningar hos fremmande folkslag som likna denna, aro: Grossmutter Schlangenkochin, i Des Knaben Wunderhorn von Achim v. Arnim und Cl. Brantano, Th. I, s.19, (pa Engelska uti Illustrations of northern Antiquities, from the earlier Teutonic and Scandinavian Romances (by H. Weber and R. Jamieson 8. 320), och slutet af The cruel Brother, or, the Bride's Testament, hos Jamieson, 1. c. I, 66, hvaraf en skiljaktig uppteckning forekommer hos Gilchrist, 1. c I, ao5. Borjan deraf bar afven likbet med: Lord Randal, uti W. Scotts Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border (uppl. 5), II, s. 267, (Ofversatt af Grimm, bland Drei Altschottische Lieder). 1. "Hvar har du va't sä länge?" — Lilla dotter kind! "Jag har va't i bänne, "Hos broderen min!" Aj, aj, ondt hafver jag, jag! 2. "Hvad fick du der att äta?" -- Lilla dotter kind! "Slekter äl och peppar, "Styfmoder min!" Aj, aj, ondt bafver jag, jag! 3."Hvad gjorde du af benen!" — Lilla dotter kind! Kasta dem for hundarne, Styfmoder min!" Aj, aj, m, m. 4. "Hvart kommo de hundarne?" — "Remna i femton stycken, Hundarne smä, m, m. 5. "Hvad ger du dä din fader?" — "Godt korn i lador, Faderen min!" 6. "Hyad ger du dä din broder?" — "Vida skepp i floder, "Broderen min!" 7. "Hvad ger du dä din syster?" — "Guldskrin och kistor, "Systeren min!" 8. "Hvad ger du din styfmoder?" — "Helvetes bojor, "Styfmoder min!" 9. "Hvad ger du da din amma?" — Lilla dotter kind! "Helvetet samma, "Amman min!' Aj, aj, ondt hafver jag, jag! _____________ Swedish songs, a collection of A.I. Arwidsson. 3 parts by Swedish singers, 1837 88. The Child's Testament (Will) Along with a melody from Ostergothland. The invention and arrangement of nine of this tradition are markedly different from that of Svenska Folk-Visor, III, 13. P2, considering the last stall name given "daughter little child" was poisoned at a visit to her grandmother; in the following version, this was done with the brother at the stepmother's and stepmother's nurse. Mentioned above in Swedish folklore is over rated by Studach, in Schwedische Volksbarfe, p. 98, and by Mohnike, among Volkslieder der Schweden, I, 5. - Dictations of versions similar to this, such as: Grossmutter Schlangenkochin, des Knaben Wunderhorn von Achim v. Arnim and Cl. Brantano, Th. I, p.19, "English in Illustrations of Northern Antiquities, from the earlier Teutonic and Scandinavian Romances (by H. Weber and R. Jamieson 8, 320), and the end of The Cruel Brother, or the Bride's Testament, at Jamieson, 1. c. I, 66, of which a discernible record appears at Gilchrist, 1. c I, 205. The ballad of the same was as follows: Lord Randal, in W. Scotts Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border (Ed. 5), II, p. 267, (Overstated by Grimm, Among Drei Altschottische Lieder). 1. "Where have you been so long now Little daughter child?" "I've been to Banne, "With brother mine!" Oh, oh, sore pains have I, I! 2. "What did you get there to eat, Little daughter child?" "Roasted eels and pepper, "Stepmother mine!" Oh, oh, sore pains have I, I! 3. "What did you do with the legs, Little daughter child?" "Threw them to the dogs, Stepmother mine!" Oh, Oh, m, m. 4. "What became of the dogs?" "Bursted in fifteen pieces, The dogs are small, m, m. 5. "What do you give your father there?" - "Good grain in barns, Father mine!" 6. "What are you giving your brother?" "Big ship in the river, Brother mine!" 7. "What do you give your sister there?" - "Gold boxes and chests, "Sister mine!" 8. "What do you give your stepmother?" - "The bowels of hell, "Stepmother mine!" 9. "What do you give your nurse?" - Little daughter child! "Hell the same, "Nurse mine!" Oh, oh, sore pains have I, I! * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:38 PM Hi, There are at least two similar Swedish versions titled, Den Lillas Testamente. This is from "Svenska folkvisor" Erik Gustaf Geijer och Arvid August Afzelius, 1816. The translation below is from "Lord Ronald in Italy," by Carrington 1886. 1. »Hvar har du varit så länge? — Dotter, liten kind! — »Jag har varit hos min amma.» Kär styfmoder min! — För aj aj! ondt hafver jag — jag. 2. »Hvad fick du der att äta?» — »Ett par små randiga fiskar.» 3. »Hvad gjorde du af benen?» — »Dem gaf jag lilla hunden.» 4. »Hvad önskar du din fader?» — »Himmelen den glade.» 5. »Hvad önskar du din moder?» — »Himmelen den gode.» 6. »Hvad önskar du din broder?» — »Ett gångande skepp i floden.» 7. »Hvad önskar du din syster?» — »Gullskrin och kistor.» 8. »Hvad önskar du din styfmor?» »Helvetet det svåra.» 9. »Hvad önskar du din amma?» — »Den önskar jag det samma.» 10. »Jag hafver icke tider, Att tala mer vid er; Ty himmelens små klockor De ringa efter mig.» För aj, aj! ondt hafver jag — jag. * * * * 1. “Where have you been so long[1] My dearest child?” “I have been to see my nurse, stepmother mine.” Ouch, ouch, I have a terrible pain, ouch! 2. “What did you eat there My dearest child?” “Pepper roasted eel, stepmother mine ”Ouch, ouch, I have a terrible pain, ouch!” 3 “What did you do with the bones?” ”I gave them to the dog.” 4 ”What happened to the dog?” “It blew up in fifteen pieces.” 5 ”What will you give your father?” ”Loads of good barley.” 6 ”What will you give your mother then?” ”Heaven ´s delight.” 7 ”What will you give your brother?” ”Big ships out in the sea.” 8 "What will you give your sister then?” ”Gold case and chest.” 9 ”What will you give your stepmother?” ”All of Hell's burden.” 10 ”What will you give your nurse?” ”Hell's fire. ___________________ 1. The transcription above is not literal and the first stanza could more accurately be: "Where have you been so long, Daughter, little child?" "Sure with my old nurse I've stayed, My step-mother mine! For oh! oh! sore pains have I— I!" * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:06 PM Hi, From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07497 Performer. Inconsistent dialect. Lord Randal- sung by Mrs William Duncan of Oyne, Aberdeenshire about 1931. 1 "Where hae ye been hunting, Lord Randal, my son? Where hae ye been hunting, my handsome young man?" "Down in yon green meadows, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wanderin' an' fain would lie doon." 2 "Who did you dine wi, Lord Randal, my son? Who did you dine wi, my handsome young man?" "I dined wi my sweetheart, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wanderin' an' fain would lie doon." 3 "What had you for supper, Lord Randal, my son? What had you for supper, my handsome young man?" "I got veal fried with ashney, mother make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wanderin' an' fain would lie doon." 4 "What became of your greyhound, Lord Randal, my son? What became of your greyhound, my handsome young man?" He swelled an' he died, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wanderin' an' fain would lie doon." 5. "I think ye are poisoned, Lord Randal, my son, I think ye are poisoned, my handsome young man," "O yes, I am poisoned; mother mak my bed soon, For I'm weary, wi wanderin' an' fain would lie doon." 6. "What'll ye leave to your father, Lord Randal my son What will ye leave to your father, my handsome young man?' "My land an' my horses; mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm weary, wi wanderin' an' fain would lie doon." 7. "What will ye leave to your mother, Lord Randal, my son? What will ye leave to your mother, my handsome young man?" My gold an' my silver, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm weary, wi wanderin' an' fain would lie doon." 8 "What'll ye leave to your sister, Lord Randal, my son? What'll ye leave to your brother, my handsome young man?" "My box an' my jewels, mother mak my bed soon, For I'm weary, wi wanderin' an' fain would lie doon." 9. "What'll ye leave to your sweetheart, Lord Randal, my son? What'll ye leave to your sweetheart, my handsome young man?" "A dish o' rank poison as she gaed to me, Gin that disna dee her, she'll be hanged on a tree." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 22 Jul 18 - 08:36 PM Ty Lighter, There are a couple one stanza Carpenter versions too :) From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07499 Lord Ronald- sung by Mrs James Pirie of Kirktown of Alvah Banffshire about 1931 1 "O where hae ye been Lord Ronald, my son, Where hae ye been wandering, my jolly young man?" "I've been a- hunting, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm weary at the heart, an' fain would lie doon." 2 "What will ye have for dinner, Lord Ronald, my son? What will ye have for dinner, my jolly young man?" "I dined wi my truelove; mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, an' fain would lie doon." 3 "What got ye for dinner, Lord Ronald, my son? What got ye for dinner, my jolly young man?" "I got fishes biled in bree; mother mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, an' fain would lie doon." 4 "Wha gae ye the supper, Lord Ronald, my son, Wha gae ye the supper, my jolly young man?" "My girl an' my sweetheart; mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, an' I fain would lie doon." 5 What's become o your hoonds Lord Ronald, my son, What's become o your hoonds, my jolly young man," "They swelled an' they died, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, an' I fain would lie doon." 6. "I fear ye are poisoned, Lord Ronald, my son, I fear ye are poisoned, my jolly young man," "O yes, I am poisoned; mother mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, an' I fain would lie doon." 7 "What will ye leave to your father, Lord Ronald my son, What will ye leave to your father, my jolly young man?' "My land and my [houses]; mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain wad lie doon." 8 "What will ye leave to your mother, Lord Ronald, my son? What will ye leave to your mother, my jolly young man?" "My cows an' the byre, mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain would lie doon." 9 "What will ye leave to your brother, Lord Ronald, my son, What will ye leave to your brother, my jolly young man?" "My horse an' his stable mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain wad lie doon." 10. "What will ye leave to your sister, Lord Ronald, my son What will ye leave to your sister, my jolly young man?" "My box an'my rings; mother, mak my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain would lie doon." 11 "What will ye leave to your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son? What will ye leave to your sweetheart, my jolly young man?" "A rope an' the halter, that hangs to the tree, An' lat her hang there get for the poisoning o' me." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Lighter Date: 22 Jul 18 - 07:28 PM This is probably the shortest version known. It may be a kind of joke, however. The Scottish music-hall star and character actor Will Fyffe (1885 - 1947) sang it in the movie "Rulers of the Sea" (1939) to the tune of "The Laird o' Cockpen": Where have you been, young Ronald my son? What got you for dinner, young Ronald my son? Eels boiled in broo, mother, make my bed soon. I fear you are poisoned, young Ronald my son! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 22 Jul 18 - 07:14 PM Hi, Two stanzas with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/Q, p. 08578 Lord Ronald- girl singers (Scotland) no date or location about 1931. 1 "O Whar hae ye been Lord Ronald, my son? "Whar hae ye been, my gallant young man?" "I've been away hunting, mother, mak my bed soon, For gin weary wi' huntin', an' fain wid lie doon." 2 "What got ye for supper, Lord Ronald, my son? What got ye for supper, my gallant young man?" "A dish o small fishes, mother, mak my bed soon, For gin weary wi' huntin', an' fain wid lie doon." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 22 Jul 18 - 01:08 PM Hi, I'm trying to transcribe the following version, I'll ck it later (Gotta go play jazz for three hours). What is chiappa' ? It should be "What did she give" feminine. Suggestions? "awake" in the first line is too literal, not sure how to fix it tho. Canti popolari della Montagna lucchese [Folk Songs from the Mountains of Lucchese] by Giovanni Giannini, 1879 L'AMANTE AVVELENATO [The Poisoned Lover] Dove sei stato a veglia, [Where have you been awake] Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil? [My rich, wise and gentle son?] Mi fai morì'! [I am dying] Ohimè! [Alas!] Dove sei stato a veglia, [Where have you been awake] Gentil mio cavaliè'? [My gentle knight?] — A casa della dama. [At the lady's house Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, ma male mi sta: [Lady mother, my heart is hurting, and it pains me] Il mio cuore se ne va. [My heart is dying (leaving)] Cosa ti ha dato a cena, [What did she (he) give you for dinner,] Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil? [My rich, wise and gentle son?] Mi fai morì'! [I am dying] Ohimè! [Alas!] Cosa t'ha dato a cena, [What did she give you for dinner,] Gentil mio cavaliè'? [My gentle knight?] — Un' anguilletta cotta. [A small cooked eel] Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, ma male mi sta: [Lady mother, my heart is hurting, and it pains me] Un' anguillina cotta: [A small cooked eel] Il mio cuore se ne va. [My heart is dying (leaving)] Dentro du' te l'ha chiappa', Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil?[My rich, wise and gentle son?] Mi fai morì'! [I am dying] Ohimè! [Alas!] Dentro du' te l'ha chiappa', Gentil mio cavaliè'? [My gentle knight?] Nel boschettin dell' orto. [In the garden grove] Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, ma male mi sta: Nel boschettin dell'orto: [In the garden grove] Il mio cuore se ne va. [My heart is dying (leaving)] Dentro du' te l'ha cotta, Figlio mio ricco savio e gentil? [My rich, wise and gentle son?] Mi fai morì'! [I am dying] Ohimè! [Alas] Dentro du' te l'ha cotta, Gentil mio cavaliè'? — 'N del penturin dall'olio. [What part did she give you?] Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, ma male mi sta: [Lady mother, my heart is hurting, and it pains me] 'N del penturin dall'olio: 'L mio cuore se ne va.[My heart is dying (leaving)] Quala parte t'ha dato, [What part did she given you?] Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil? [My rich, wise and gentle son?] Mi fai morì'! [I am dying] Ohimè! [Alas] Quala parte t'ha dato, [What part did she give you] Gentil mio cavaliè'? — [My gentle knight?] La testa e la coda. [The head and tail] Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, marnale mi sta: [Lady mother, my heart is hurting, and it pains me] La testa e la coda: [The head and tail] 'L mio cuore se ne va. — — Cosa lassi alla serva, Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil? [My rich, wise and gentle son?] Mi fai morì'! [I am dying] Ohimè! [Alas!] Cosa lassi alla serva, Gentil mio cavaliè'? [My gentle knight?]— — Lo strofinel de'-p-piatti. dishes] Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, marnale mi sta: [Lady mother, my heart is hurting, and it pains me] Lo strofinel de'-p-piatti: 'L mio cuore se ne va. [My heart is dying (leaving)] Cosa lasci al fratello, [What will you leave your brother,] Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil? [My rich, wise and gentle son?] Mi fai morì'! [I am dying,] Ohimè! [Alas!] Cosa lasci al fratello, [What will you leave your brother,] Gentil mio cavaliè'? [My gentle knight?] Pantaloni e giubba. [Trousers and jackets.] Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, marnale mi sta: Pantaloni e giubba: [Trousers and jackets.] 'li mio cuore se ne va.[My heart is dying (leaving).] — Cosa lasci alla madre, [What will you leave your mother,] Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil? [My rich, wise and gentle son?] Mi fai morì'! Ohimè! Cosa lasci alla madre, [What will you leave your mother,] Gentil mio cavaliè' ? — [My gentle knight?] — I gli occhi per il piange'. [My eyes for crying] Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, ma male mi sta: I gli occhi per il piange': [My eyes for crying] 'L mio cuore se ne va. [My heart is dying (leaving).] — Cosa lassi alla sorella, [What will you leave your sister,] Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil? Mi fai morì'! Ohimè! Cosa lasci alla sorella, [What will you leave your sister,] Gentil mio cavaliè'? —[ My gentle knight?] — Cento scudi per maritalla. [One hundred shields --] Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, ma male mi sta: Cento scudi per maritalla: 'L mio cuore se ne va. [My heart is dying (leaving).] — Cosa lasci alla dama, [What will you leave to the lady,] Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil? [My rich, wise and gentle son?] Mi fai morì'! Ohimè! Cosa lasci alla dama. [What will you leave to the lady] Gentil mio cavaliè'? — [My gentle knight?] — Un cordin per appiccalla.[A rope to torment(hell)] Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, ma male mi sta: [Lady mother, my heart is hurting, and it pains me] Un cordin per appiccalla: 'L mio cuore se ne va. [My heart is dying (leaving).] ____________________ |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 21 Jul 18 - 09:55 PM Hi, From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/Q, p. 08581. This is also titled "Lord Ronald" in another MS. Stanza 2 is the only one with "gallant young man?" Lord Rondal - sung by Jean Ironside of 5 Auchreddie Road, New Deer learned from a singer in Gyne District. 1. "Where have you been, Lord Rondal, my son? Where have you been, my handsome young man?" "I've been to my sweetheart's, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary wi' wanderin' and fain would lie doon." 2. "Oh, have you had supper, Lord Rondal, my son Oh, have you had supper, my gallant young man?" "Oh yes I've had supper, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary wi' wanderin' and fain would lie doon." 3. "What had ye for supper, Lord Rondal, my son "Black fish wi' white bellies, mother, make my bed soon, 4. I'm afraid you've been poisoned, Lord Rondal, my son "Oh yes, I've been poisoned, mother, make my bed soon, 5. "What will you leave to your father, Lord Rondal, my son, "My sheep and my cattle, mother, make my bed soon, 6. "What will you leave to your brother, Lord Rondal, my son, "My horse an' my stable, mother, make my bed soon, 7. "What will you leave to your sister, Lord Rondal, my son, "My rings an' my jewelry, mother, make my bed soon, 8. "What will you leave to your mother Lord Rondal, my son, "My books and bible, mother, make my bed soon, 9. "What will you leave to your sweetheart Lord Rondal, my son, What will you leave to your sweetheart, my handsome young man?" "There's a rope in the stable, hang her on a tree, And that's what she'll get for the poisonin' o' me. Oh mother, dear mother, please make my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart and fain would lie doon." |
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