Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 May 21 - 05:37 PM

Look forward to hearing it, but I have to say Chappell's tune very much looks to have been copied from Motherwell note for note. I'm pretty certain what Chappell was referring to in Bagford was a version of the broadside sans music. That tune may well date back to earlier times, or it may be that Motherwell's informant simply put the ballad to another ballad tune. I'll be able to give a more informed opinion when I've heard your rendition. I don't sight read but I have a pretty good ear.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Dave Rado
Date: 22 May 21 - 05:36 PM

PS - I think it's almost certain that Chappell didn't get the tune from Motherwell, because Chappell wrote:

"A copy of the ballad is in the Bagford Collection, entitled "A lamentable ballad of Little Musgrove and the Lady Barnet, to an excellent new tune." It is also in Wit restored, 1658; in Dryden's Miscellany Poems, iii. 312 (1716); and in Pcrcy's Reliques, series 3, book i.

I can't imagine why he would cite all those sources and yet omit mentioning Motherwell if he had really got the tune from Motherwell.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 May 21 - 05:34 PM

Chappell seems to be deliberately evasive about where he got the tune. What was "usual" about it?

Karen Macaulay might know the real scoop.

https://claimedfromstationershall.wordpress.com/tag/william-chappell/

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Dave Rado
Date: 22 May 21 - 04:36 PM

Thanks all – fascinating discussion.

Chappell's Wikipedia bio is here. It doesn't mention that he ever lived in Edinburgh and he certainly seems to have spent most of his life in London and clearly thought of himself as a collator of English folk songs. He also clearly thought (based on his writing that "the tune is the usual traditional version") that that tune he published was considered to be traditional in England by 1855.

The fact that the same tune was published in 1827 by William Motherwell in Glasgow doesn't prove that it originated in Scotland or that Chappell got it from Motherwell. If it was traditional as Chappell claimed it was, then he wouldn't have had to get it from any written source.

I don't see why it couldn't have been considered to have been the traditional tune for the song in both England and Scotland by 1827. And if it was considered to be traditional in England by 1855 when Chappell published it, as he claimed it was, then it would almost certainly have been around since much earlier than 1827.

The fact that no one here has been able to find it in Bagford doesn't prove it's not there. Chappell said that it was, and not all of Bagford has survived and not all of what has survived appears to have been digitised. The only way to prove that the tune isn't in Bagford would be to find the words of the ballad in Bagford, and if there is no tune with the words then that would prove the tune isn't there. Until then, surely the jury is out?

Anyway it seems to me that:

• By 1855 the Chappell/Motherwell tune was considered to be traditional, probably in both England and Scotland, and it definitely dates back before 1827, as Motherwell did not claim to have written it when he published it then; and it may possibly date back to the 17th century, as Chappell implied that it did. For the sake of anyone new to this thread, the Chappell/Motherwell tune is here in PDF format; and there is a recording here of the first verse sung to that tune by my friend James Eisner.


• As far as I can tell, every British recording of Little Musgrave that has ever been made has either been sung to the traditional American tune that Joan Baez sang the song's American cousin Matty Groves to; or to a tune written in 1970 by Nic Jones, which was based on and is closely related to the tune that Joan Baez sung it to; or to a traditional American tune for another American cousin of the song called "Shady Grove" (which is the tune Fairport Convention sang Matty Groves to); or (as in the case of Martin Carthy) to a traditional folk tune taken from a completely unrelated song.


• The Chappell/Motherwell tune is the only traditional British tune that has survived to the present day, yet seems to have been completely forgotten by the folk singing fraternity.


• I therefore think it's time to revive it! I'm certainly going to start singing Little Musgrave to that tune and I hope others will too.

Dave

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 May 21 - 02:02 PM

There are several American tunes, better known than the British ones. Once a folk band sets a tune to a ballad, be it American or of their own construction or taken from another ballad, it soon gets pounced on by other performers and becomes the 'accepted' tune. They are simply imitating what often happened in oral tradition. It would be better for us if performers told us where they got their versions but it's not written in stone.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Reinhard
Date: 22 May 21 - 12:27 PM

Subject: RE: Matty Groves
From: Sandy Paton - PM
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 06:11 PM

Yeah, and they did it to the tune of Matty's disreputable brother, "Shady Grove."

Sandy

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 21 - 11:54 AM

Tangentially, does anyone know the source of Fairport Convention's tune for 'Matty Groves'?

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 May 21 - 11:02 AM

Good question, Jack. Yes it is exact. So Chappell got it from Motherwell. My Motherwell postdates Chappell so the question is, did the tune appear in Motherwell's first edition. Motherwell's copy is in Bb and Chappell's is in G with bass harmony.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 May 21 - 10:10 AM

As it looks like both the Chappell and Motherwell tunes are accessible to those with better technology than me - are they the same?

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 May 21 - 09:48 AM

I have some volumes of Bagford but it's not in any of the ones I've got. There are plenty of 17thc versions at UCSB EBBA site so it's worth having a look at all the versions there to see if any relate to a known tune.

If you want my opinion, this is highly unlikely. Jack says 'sometimes they printed that tune'. Whilst a small number did, the majority of these had no relation to the ballad whatsoever and were just there for cosmetic appearances.

Regarding Chappell's tune, it's quite probable that the ballad was still being sung in polite circles in Chappell's youth and that might have been a source of his tune. Chappell also lived in Edinburgh for much of his life so again it may well be a Scottish tune. His family business was based in London so a look into his life story might give a better picture. Wikipedia?

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 22 May 21 - 09:27 AM

https://archive.org/details/bagfordballadsi01ebswgoog/page/n7/mode/2up

I don't know if that will be of help. I looked for 'Little Musgrave' in the three indices and came up empty, but possibly one of you who know about this stuff will be able to get something out of it.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 May 21 - 08:07 PM

Looks like Chappell was just quoting the long form of the title, which ended like many broadside ballads "... to an Excellent new Tune". Sometimes they printed that tuune and sometimes not.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Dave Rado
Date: 21 May 21 - 07:56 PM

Also the tune Chappell published seems to be the only surviving traditional English tune for this song; and as the song originated in England I'd far rather sing it to an English tune than a Scottish one.

I don't read music, so a friend of mine, James Eisner, has made a recording of the first verse sung to the tune published by Chappel, and has kindly uploaded it to Soundcloud here - so that I could link to it, in case anyone else who doesn't read music would like to hear it as well.

Many thanks again to Steve for unearthing it.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Dave Rado
Date: 21 May 21 - 07:44 PM

Well Chappell states "A copy of the ballad is in the Bagford Collection, entitled "A lamentable ballad of Little Musgrave and the Lady Barnet, to an excellent new tune.""

So Chappel seems to have thought that the tune was in the Bagford collection.

What remains of The Bagford collection is in the British Library, but much of it has been lost, according to the BL website. And it doesn't appear to have been digitised.

In any case Chappel also states "The tune is the usual traditional version." Which implies to me that he thought the tune was already old - one doesn't refer to a recently written tune as traditional. He wrote this in 1855 so that implies he thought it was written much earlier than 1827.

It seems to me at the least to be highly probable that the tune is pre-19th century and likely that it is 17th century.

Dave

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 May 21 - 05:55 PM

The only Bagford Collection I know of consists of broadsides only, without tunes. However that doesn't mean there aren't any tunes in there. Where is the Bagford Collection held? UCSB might give us some clues. Roxburghe is in the BL, duplicated on UCSB. Chappell is not infallible, by the way.

The ballad was one of the most printed pieces in the 17th century. Just about all of the major printers had it, and in the most common form of 34 stanzas/17 doubles it carried on into the mid 18th century.

In Ebsworth's Roxburghe Ballads Vol 6 he gives several texts from the 17th century. On p633 he gives a version 'To an Excellent New Tune' In brackets after it Ebsworth put 'See Popular Music p170'.

What is very curious is that Simpson gives no mention of the ballad.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 May 21 - 02:56 PM

Places that index Bagford do it in too complicated and indirect a way for me to follow on this phone. Got a direct link?

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Dave Rado
Date: 21 May 21 - 01:33 PM

Hi Jack

Chappel says the English tune was in the Bagford collection, and Bagford died in 1716, so it must surely be a 17th century tune.

Dave

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 May 21 - 08:17 PM

Bronson says the text was first quoted in a play from 1611. Motherwell's tune from 1827 is the earliest one known.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Dave Rado
Date: 20 May 21 - 05:17 PM

Many thanks to both of you. I'd rather go with the English tune than the Scottish one, though, because I think the song almost certainly originated in England.

Many thanks for your scan Steve. I subsequently managed to find and download the entire Chappel book in PDF format from here, and created a 1-page PDF from it of page 170, with the sheet music for the tune, and I've uploaded that to here.

I think it's amazing that this tune was clearly considered to be the traditional one in England, from when it was written in the 17th century up until at least 1855 when Chappel 's book was published - and yet it seems to have been completely forgotten by folk singers of the 20th century - as far as I can tell no one has ever recorded Little Musgrave to that tune!

Steve, can you tell how old the tune is? I assume from the notes in Chappel that it must be 17th century, but can you place its likely date more accurately than that?

Anyway, I'm going to start learning the song to that tune now. Many thanks for all your help! I really appreciate it.

Dave

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 May 21 - 09:57 AM

Hi Dave,
Don't forget you are dealing with a song at least as old as 1620 and 'little' could have several contemporary meanings, not necessarily small in stature. I would suggest perhaps 'young' or even 'lower status' than the Barnards. There may be other possibilities. It could also even be just a term of endearment.

Conversely, it could be a nickname or irony as in 'Little John' of Sherwood fame and of the same period.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 May 21 - 06:14 AM

Motherwell's "Minstrelsy" (1827) is online so you can find the old Scottish tune there.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Dave Rado
Date: 19 May 21 - 08:10 PM

Sorry about the typos in my last message - of course it should have said "an English song", not "and English song"; and it should have said "do you think" not do you thing".

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Dave Rado
Date: 19 May 21 - 08:07 PM

Many thanks to you both. I've PM'd Steve for the sheet music scan.

Interesting that there are so many documented American tunes for what was originally and English song - and yet, it seems, only one traditional English one! I hope I like it.

Also interesting to learn that Musgrave was an aristocratic family and that Lord Barnard and Musgrave were not necessarily based in Barnard Castle or Little Musgrave. So do you thing the "little" in "little Musgrave" in the song was a reference to his dimunuitive stature after all?

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 May 21 - 07:29 PM

Bronson gives 74 variants all from North America. He mentions Chappell and an 1827 tune from Motherwell but doesn't print them.

British antecedents he claims for some of the North American ones are "Gypsy Laddie", "The Boyne Water" and "Drumdelgie".

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 May 21 - 06:35 PM

There is what is presumably an old English tune for the ballad in Chappell's Popular Music of the olden Times at p170.

It would be impossible to pin down geographically Musgrave and Barnard as they are both very old aristocratic families who held widely spread properties in both England and Scotland. The earliest versions go back at least to the 1620s. Even if the ballad was based on some real event there have probably been numerous liaisons between the 2 families over the centuries. If you want to PM me with your email I can scan you a copy of the tune.

Subject: Tune Req: Trad. English tune for Little Musgrave?
From: Dave Rado
Date: 19 May 21 - 05:48 PM

I grew up loving Joan Baez's recording of Matty Groves, but I recently decided to research the song in order to sing it in public - and discovered that Matty Groves is actually an American variant of a much older English song, Little Musgrave (and Lady Barnard) - and that Little Musgrave is a place fairly close to Barnard Castle, and that both names are probably a reference to the towns the protagonists lived in, and therefore that "Little" was part of a town's name rather than a reference to the person's stature.

So as I live in England, I decided to learn and sing the English song instead. But I can't find a traditional tune for it!

Almost all the recordings of Little Musgrave that I could find are sung to a tune written by Nic Jones and first recorded in 1970, but which is based on and closely related to the American tune as sung by Joan Baez.

Nic's sleeve notes said: "Musgrave's tune is more a creation of my own than anything else, although the bulk of it is based on an American variant of the same ballad, entitled, Little Matty Groves."

I would rather sing it to the Joan Baez tune, as at least it's a traditional tune for the song - albeit an American derivation of it - than to a tune derived from that American tune but written in 1970. I might feel differently if I strongly preferred the Nic Jones one to the traditional one - but I don't.

But I'd far rather sing it to a traditional English tune for the song, if such a tune exists.

Nic Jones' recording is here, and the following recordings all use the tune Nic wrote: Planxty, Christy Moore, Martin Simpson and Tinto Singing School.

Martin Carthy sang it to a very different tune (his recording is here), but he wrote in his sleeve notes: "The tune I pinched from a version of the Holy Well." So that's not a tune traditionally associated with this song either.

Raymond Crooke sang it to a different tune again his recording is here) but he says in the comments: "This tune is based on a shortened American adaptation of the song, known as "Shady Grove"." So that's another American adaptation.

Does anyone know if any traditional English tune for this song has survived?

It seems odd if not, because that would imply that for a long period the English song stopped being sung altogether - and presumably the English song would have been completely forgotten had the American Matty Groves variant of it not survived and continued to be sung.

Any insights into this would be greatly appreciated.

Dave