BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:59 AM

Food for thought, Larry. I once wrote a policy paper on the Social Discount Rate which, in part, postulated by way of analogy that western governments and oil companies should spend their money on oil exploration and research, develop reserves, but only bring enough of it to market to pay for these activities... until we use up every drop of "their" oil.

Simple aritmetics, really, but the catch is that we have to have lots of bullets when we say we are not going to compensate "them" for all the $'s they invested in our economy when their oil runs out.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:35 AM

All this talk about oil is just really silly.   Oil was discovered in Pennsylvania in 1859.   From 1859 to 1960 the USA was the largest producer of oil in the world.

We have currently used about 1 trillion barrels.   According to most experts we have 1 trillion barrels left.   We currently use 30 billion barrels of oil a year.   Do the math- that gives us 33 years. But its worse than that.   Due to India and China oil usage is increasing by 1 billion barrels a year.   Therefore we have less time.

70% of all the oil in the USA is gone.   All the major discoveries in the USA were in the 1930's.   The Gulf of Mexico and Alaska are relatively small (good finds but still small)   There are 4,500,000 oil wells in the world with about 3,500,000 in the USA.   There are no major discoveries to be made.   The only possibilities are Iran or Iraq where politics has not less us explore.   

Lets assume we are completely wrong and there are 2 trillion barrels left.   That only buys us another 11 years.   Meanwhile they are spending 10's of billions of dollars in the tar flats in Calgary to get oil.   Would the experts be spending that amount of money if there were other oil finds that were easy to get?

The point is that oil is running out in our lifetime.   Debating how to buy us another few years from Iraq oil is really silly.   Anyone making that argument clearly does not understand the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:32 AM

Hey TIA, thanks for the link! That's a very useful website. I betcha that if everyone was forced to go there first to logic-check the post they are about to submit, mudcat would have about a zillion fewer posts!! *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:21 AM

another one ..

When did you stop beating your wife?

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:18 AM

Your question is a classic logical fallacy: the False Dilemma.

Here's another - answer me this Mr. Hubby - Do you

1) walk to school, or
2) carry your lunch?

Well, which is it?

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:15 AM

SH... none of us are waiting for you to explain yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:10 AM

freda,


Please show me anywhere in this thread where I have personally attacked anyone.


I have only shared my opinion based on what I see as yours or anybody else's opinion.

If it's not true, then so be it.

I will not back down from my opinions just as I see you will not back down from yours.

I just ask for clarification on what you say. You can't have it both ways.

It's just more of the same....talking out of both sides of your mouth.




Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:03 AM

You define your own terms, Susu's hubby, within your own logic. But it has nothing to do with people here. When your comments descended to personal attacks, you lost the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:02 AM

"Actually, he is a wonderful Christian who loves everyone the same, and actually is more tolerant than most people on this website. While he was extreme with the view of people on welfare he did not actually mean that he thought that all of them are on crack or tramps."

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 09:57 AM

To all those who believe I called them a racist:


I gave you a choice between two options. Whatever option suits you the best is not my fault. It's what I read in your never-ending posts that tells me that it's got to be one of the two.

Now if that's not the truth then explain yourselves. Please tell us what the real truth is.



We're waiting.....







Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:25 AM

SH, you are being a total weasel. You DID call Bobert a racist (and me since my post was also above yours), and when he stood up to you you backpedaled. If you saw a picture of my family, you'd be thoroughly embarassed at having called me a racist (and you would see that I have no reason to be jealus of anyone over anything). Your mindless cut&paste retread crap posts have damaged your credibility, your accusations against me (and Bobert and others) shredded it. Don't bother apologizing... that also would have zero credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:24 AM

Oil companies at the heart of Iraq crisis. Before 9-11, US targeted Iraq oil

by Neil Mackay

    President Bush's Cabinet agreed in April 2001 that ''Iraq remains a destabilising influence to the flow of oil to international markets from the Middle East'' and because this is an unacceptable risk to the US ''military intervention'' is necessary.
    Vice-president Dick Cheney, who chairs the White House Energy Policy Development Group, commissioned a report on ''energy security'' from the Baker Institute for Public Policy, a think-tank set up by James Baker, the former US secretary of state under George Bush Snr.
    The report, Strategic Energy Policy Challenges For The 21st Century, concludes: ''The United States remains a prisoner of its energy dilemma. Iraq remains a de-stabilising influence to the flow of oil to international markets from the Middle East. Saddam Hussein has also demonstrated a willingness to threaten to use the oil weapon and to use his own export programme to manipulate oil markets.    Therefore the US should conduct an immediate policy review toward Iraq including military, energy, economic and political/ diplomatic assessments.
''The United States should then develop an integrated strategy with key allies in Europe and Asia, and with key countries in the Middle East, to restate goals with respect to Iraqi policy and to restore a cohesive coalition of key allies.''
    Baker who delivered the recommendations to Cheney, the former chief executive of Texas oil firm Halliburton, was advised by Kenneth Lay, the disgraced former chief executive of Enron, the US energy giant which went bankrupt after carrying out massive accountancy fraud.
    The other advisers to Baker were: Luis Giusti, a Shell non-executive director; John Manzoni, regional president of BP and David O'Reilly, chief executive of ChevronTexaco. Another name linked to the document is Sheikh Saud Al Nasser Al Sabah, the former Kuwaiti oil minister and a fellow of the Baker Institute.
    President Bush also has strong connections to the US oil industry and once owned the oil company Spectrum 7.
    The Baker report highlights massive shortages in world oil supplies which now leave the US facing ''unprecedented energy price volatility'' and has led to recurring electricity black-outs in areas such as California.
    The report refers to the impact of fuel shortages on voters. It recommends a ''new and viable US energy policy central to America's domestic economy and to [the] nation's security and foreign policy''.
    Iraq, the report says, ''turns its taps on and off when it has felt such action was in its strategic interest to do so'', adding that there is a ''possibility that Saddam Hussein may remove Iraqi oil from the market for an extended period of time'' in order to damage prices.
    The report also says that Cheney should integrate energy and security to stop ''manipulations of markets by any state'', and suggests that Cheney's Energy Policy Group includes ''representation from the Department of Defence''.
    ''Unless the United States assumes a leadership role in the formation of new rules of the game,'' the report says, ''US firms, US consumers and the US government [will be left] in a weaker position.''

by Neil Mackay, award-winning journalist with The Sunday Herald, Glasgow, Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:18 AM

Secret US Plans for Iraqi Oil

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:15 AM

Texas Oil Companies Bought Iraqi Oil
N. Y. Times. Published October 9, 2004.
By Judith Miller and Eric Lipton

(Begin excerpt.) Major American oil companies and a Texas oil investor were among those who received lucrative vouchers that enabled them to buy Iraqi oil under the United Nations oil-for-food program, according to a report prepared by the chief arms inspector for the Central Intelligence Agency.

The 918-page report says that four American oil companies - Chevron, Mobil, Texaco and Bay Oil - and three individuals including Oscar S. Wyatt Jr. of Houston were given vouchers and got 111 million barrels of oil between them from 1996 to 2003. The vouchers allowed them to profit by selling the oil or the right to trade it.

The other individuals, whose names appeared on a secret list maintained by the former Iraqi government, were Samir Vincent of Annandale, Va., and Shakir al-Khafaji of West Bloomfield, Mich., according to the report by the inspector, Charles A. Duelfer. (End excerpt.)

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:12 AM

I didn't read all the posts; sorry if I am repeating. As I have asked on a number of threads, didn't Saddam tried to assassinate Garge's old man? It's personal.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:06 AM

Published on Thursday, January 30, 2003 by the Independent (Cape Town, South Africa) All Bush Wants is Iraqi Oil, Says Mandela

Former president Nelson Mandela said on Thursday the United States was preparing to go to war because "George Bush wants to get hold of the Iraqi oil".

Former South African President Nelson Mandela lashed out at President George Bush's stance on Iraq January 30, 2003, saying the Texan had no foresight and could not think properly. "All Bush wants is Iraqi oil, because Iraq produces 64 percent of oil and he wants to get hold of it. "Bush is acting outside the United Nations and both he and (British Prime Minister) Tony Blair are undermining the United Nations, an organisation which was an idea sponsored by their predecessors."

Mandela also questioned whether the US was ignoring the UN because its secretary-general is black.

"Because they (America) are so arrogant, they killed innocent people in Japan during Hiroshima and Nagasaki," he said referring to the two atom bombs the US dropped on Japanese cities to end the Second World War.

'One power with a president who can't think properly, ... wants to plant the world into holocaust' The elderly statesman said he was pleased that the people of the world, including Americans, were opposing the US government. "He (Bush) is making the greatest mistake of his life by trying to cause carnage.

Copyright 2003 Independent Online

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:02 AM

have people forgotten already why GB invaded?

Top 10 reasons that George W. Bush invaded Iraq.

10 - Because Saddam was personally responsible for 9/11; I mean because the US was under imminent threat of attack from Iraq; I mean, Saddam had weapons of mass distraction, I mean destruction programs, that he was selling to the Al-Qaeda and Taliban. Oh, wait a minute, now it's coming to me. Because we wanted to liberate the Iraqi people against a ruthless and mean dictator. Yeah, that's it. Like we said all along, Bush just wanted to liberate the Iraqi people.

9 - What is our oil doing under their sand?

8 - Did we mention 9/11 yet? Not that there is any evidence connecting Saddam to 9/11 but we'll just keep mentioning it (but we won't talk about the oil).

7 - Just because you are a chicken hawk, doesn't mean you can't give out a serving of whoop ass (as long as you get others to do it for you).

6 - Bush thought, "What is the stupidest thing I can do to get the whole world's opinion against the United States?"

5 - His advisors thought it was a good way to get his mind off the red button.

4 - Because he heard that Osama Bin Laden was in Pakistan.

3 - It had absolutely nothing to do with oil. Repeat, absolutely nothing to do with oil.

2 - North Korea has the nuclear bomb and everybody knew that Iraq didn't.

And the #1 reason Bush Jr. invaded Iraq - Cheney made him do it.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 07:59 AM

hey Bobert - you are a good bloke.

BTW, Bush and his Coalition decide to invade..

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 07:53 AM

we shell not...

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 07:48 AM

Oils ain't oils...

President Bush establishes a clear link between Iraq & Al Qaeda

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 07:38 AM

"It is clear our nation is reliant upon big foreign oil. More and more of our imports come from overseas." —George Bush Jnr, Beaverton, Ore., Sep. 25, 2000
_________________________________________________________

Secret US plans for Iraq's oil; By Greg Palast; BBC Online

The Bush administration made plans for war and for Iraq's oil before the 9/11 attacks, sparking a policy battle between neo-cons and Big Oil, BBC's Newsnight has revealed. Iraqi-born Falah Aljibury says US Neo-Conservatives planned to force a coup d'etat in Iraq .. there were two conflicting plans, setting off a hidden policy war between neo-conservatives at the Pentagon, on one side, versus a combination of "Big Oil" executives and US State Department "pragmatists". "Big Oil" appears to have won. The latest plan, obtained by Newsnight from the US State Department was, we learned, drafted with the help of American oil industry consultants. Insiders told Newsnight that planning began "within weeks" of Bush's first taking office in 2001, long before the September 11th attack on the US. An Iraqi-born oil industry consultant, Falah Aljibury, says he took part in the secret meetings in California, Washington and the Middle East. He described a State Department plan for a forced coup d'etat.

Mr Aljibury himself told Newsnight that he interviewed potential successors to Saddam Hussein on behalf of the Bush administration.
The industry-favoured plan was pushed aside by a secret plan, drafted just before the invasion in 2003, which called for the sell-off of all of Iraq's oil fields. The new plan was crafted by neo-conservatives intent on using Iraq's oil to destroy the Opec cartel through massive increases in production above Opec quotas.

Former Shell Oil USA chief stalled plans to privatise Iraq's oil industry The sell-off was given the green light in a secret meeting in London headed by Fadhil Chalabi shortly after the US entered Baghdad, according to Robert Ebel. Mr Ebel, a former Energy and CIA oil analyst, now a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, told Newsnight he flew to the London meeting at the request of the State Department.

"We saw an increase in the bombing of oil facilities, pipelines, built on the premise that privatisation is coming." Philip Carroll, the former CEO of Shell Oil USA who took control of Iraq's oil production for the US Government a month after the invasion, stalled the sell-off scheme. Mr Carroll told us he made it clear to Paul Bremer, the US occupation chief who arrived in Iraq in May 2003, that: "There was to be no privatisation of Iraqi oil resources or facilities while I was involved."

New plans, obtained from the State Department by Newsnight and Harper's Magazine under the US Freedom of Information Act, called for creation of a state-owned oil company favoured by the US oil industry. It was completed in January 2004 under the guidance of Amy Jaffe of the James Baker Institute in Texas. Formerly US Secretary of State, Baker is now an attorney representing Exxon-Mobil and the Saudi Arabian government.

View segments of Iraq oil plans at www.GregPalast.com
BBC online, Thurs 17 March 2005

more here

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 07:03 AM

Asking someone if they are pedophile is not the same as calling someone a pedophile (Dianavan)

Maybe SH could used this clever sidestep and replace just 'pedophile' by 'racist'?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 12:35 AM

SH, I see you have repeated your cut and pasted disingenuous and downright deceitful information about conditions in Iraq. If you went so far as to read that, you must know that it is an unverified and simplistic compilation from various sources who apparently are quoting from each other.

If You Read That, Then Read This :

"January 4, 2004 | category: Ahmed Kharrufa • Voices from Iraq
If you are visiting from Snopes.com regarding what life in Iraq and the occupation is really like the following account from an Iraqi man provides a good overview of the U.S. occupation, although it was written in January of 2004 making it a year old. For more recent information about the U.S. and U.K. lead occupation and its actual results please read some of the following areas on our website."

Lots of links to pursue there- I know how interested you are in the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 11:22 PM

From your link, beardedbruce - "March 1 Iraq closes its northern crude oil export pipeline indefinitely due to sabotage concerns. The 600,000 bbl/d-pipeline, which runs from the city of Kirkuk to the Mediterranean port of Ceyhan has been the target of over 15 attacks since January 2005. The closure of the pipeline will make it difficult for Iraq to meet its targeted crude oil export level of 2 million barrels per day. (WMRC)"

Hmmm - Looks like Iraq has quite a large capacity to produce. Its just that this pesky war is getting in the way. If everyone would just simmer down and sell it to the U.S. at rock bottom prices everything would be fine, eh?

In other words - If the sabbotage ends, production goes up and Iraq will be dealing primarily with the U.S. to whom they will be indebted. You don't think the U.S. is over there fighting so that Iraq can sell their oil to the highest bidder do you?

Susu's hubby - You are looking more and more ignorant everytime you post. Bobert is not a racist and he probably has a higher level of education than you do. Did anyone ever teach you to think critically?

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 11:15 PM

Thankee, Alba, fir the support.... Good to hear other folks willin' to stand up to ignorant bullie/brownshirsts...

Hubby knew that we were nietherr jelous or racist but he played the "race card" anyway... That makes hubby the racist because hubby was the one that brought up race if folks didn't goose-step to his guys marchin' orders...

But, guess what? Americans are slowly but surely sayin' "Hey, wait just a danged minute" to Bush and his Neocon Radicals....

Yeah, lots o' folks thinkin' "Hey, maybe this weren't such a great idea" now that they ain't seein' them piccures on the TV of Saddamas stuff gettin' blowed up but seein' where our kids are gettin' blowed up....

...and, for the record, Hubby owes a lot of folks an APOLOGY...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Alba
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 11:04 PM

adjustment required..(my dyslexia stricks again, sorry Bobert even after 3 proof reads I still managed to miss something...sorry:>)

"Hey Bobert, your Education IS top notch"
Love
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Alba
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 10:55 PM

Hey Bobert, your Education if top notch.

You are not now, never have been and never will be a Racist.

Like I said on another thread...I now filter out the pro Bushites rants, if I NEED to know what they are saying...I know where to get that info.....cause someone else said it for them already so they just cut and paste.

As for Education...well, lol, that is definetly what conservatribes need. Guess they were some of the Children left behind.
Either that or they need to pull their heads our of their Butts and have a look at the REAL world.
Pathetic.
No sense in talking sense Bobert cause all youlle get back is nonsense from the Bush worshippers. They do really beilieve what they post here..They HAVE to....that's the saddest part of it all. They really do HAVE to believe the garbage they come in here with because for them to think otherwise would be so disturbing, embarrasing and shameful that it is best for them to just to blank out the Facts.

Yeah.. Iraq is Free...the insurgency is in it's last throes. ok ok ok..
fine...whatever they say. sheeesh

By the way Bobert you are owed more than an apology not just for the Racist remarks. You are also owed one for the insults directed at your intelligence, which as most of us know, is way above any Bushite that posts on the Mudcat.
That kind of low tactic is an example of one finger pointing at you Bobert and three fingers pointing right back at the person flinging the insults around.

I have always been more of a Non Fiction reader rather than a Fiction myself...that why I find Mudcat psuedo Conservatribe posts so uninformative and inaccurate.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 10:40 PM

Well, nice sidestep..... What I got out of yer post is that folks who disaggree with you are either "jealous" (which I am not) ot racist (which I am not)....

Maybe you need to rewritwe what you had on yer mind at the time of 1:31 post... If you didn't mean what you said, fine. I can live with that but accsuinf folks who don't agree with you as being eithe "jealous" or "racist" is gonna get yer lights punched out....

And I mean this...

Maybe you need to think about how you go about strutin' yer version of "either with us or against us" 'cause the way you put it up there was down right fu*ked up...

So you either gonna have to explain to folks here that you mghta messed up a little with that racist stuff or yer gonna have to deal wioth me... And I'll hound you withotu mercy 'cause that was wrong on yer part...

Yeah, I'm a Christain, like Jesus, I gotta a temper... You gonna stick with callion' folks racists because they don't agree with you or yer hero then it gonna be like the money changers in the temple...

YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY...

Ain't ''bout readin', Hubby....

You messed up, now time to fess up...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 10:23 PM

Bobert,

You're right. I'm sorry that YOU CAN'T COMPREHEND WHAT YOU ARE READING. Nowhere in this thread did I say "Bobert, you are a racist." If you need more schooling, then go back and sharpen those comprehension skills. It sure would save me a lot of time from having to explain everything to you. Besides, I'm sure other people have stuff they would like to add to the discussion besides reading your gas about how you've been "personally attacked."

Hell....I'm sure we'd all love to pitch in and help with the costs of the class if that's what's keeping you from doing it.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 10:10 PM

Nice cut and paste, Hubby... You still owe me and others an apology and if you don't come forth with it then you will be the one whio will be the RACIST because it will be you, NO ONE ELSE HERE, who resorted to callin folks racists if they didn't buy into her heros PR firms crap.....

Yeah, you'd love to change the subject but, hey, you talk about personal responsibility and it's time fir you to step to the friggin' plate, pal...

Yeah, name callin' ain't as much fun when someone is out there to call yer hand, is it???...

If you ever call me a racist again I will hunt yer sorry ass down and plant my fist right between yer eyes!!!!! And you can take that to the bank, or hospital... I am very serious here so don't side step me.... YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY...

YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY!!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 09:59 PM

Quagmire? I think not. Kennedy and LBJ put us in a quagmire. Nixon finally had the right idea and got us out. If we had let our military commanders fight the war instead of receiving bombing orders from the White House then that might have turned out differently as well. But I'll take this from another thread so we can all see what's really going on in Iraq.


Accomplishments in Iraq

... the first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has
graduated and is on active duty.

... over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their
fellow citizens.

... nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning.

... the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.

... on Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518
megawatts - exceeding the prewar average.

... all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes
and colleges are open, as are nearly all primary and
secondary schools.

... by October 1, Coalition forces had rehab-ed over
1,500 schools - 500 more than scheduled.

... teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former
salaries.

... all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are
open.

... doctors salaries are at least eight times what
they were under Saddam.

... pharmaceutical distribution has gone from
essentially nothing to 700 tons in May to a current
total of 12,000 tons.

... the Coalition has helped administer over 22
million vaccination doses to Iraq's children.

... a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000
kilometers of Iraq's 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked
canals which now irrigate tens of thousands of farms.
This project has created jobs for more than 100,000
Iraqi men and women.

... we have restored over three-quarters of prewar
telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable
water production.

... there are 4,900 full-service telephone
connections. We expect 50,000 by year-end.

... the wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles
to satellite dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are
coming to life in all major cities and towns.

... 95 percent of all prewar bank customers have
service and first-time customers are opening accounts
daily.

... Iraqi banks are making loans to finance
businesses.

... the central bank is fully independent.

... Iraq has one of the worlds most growth-oriented
investment and banking laws.

... Iraq has a single, unified currency for the first
time in 15 years.

... satellite TV dishes are legal.

... foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying
mandatory and extortionate fees to the Ministry of
Information for minders and other government spies.

... there is no Ministry of Information.

... there are more than 170 newspapers.

... you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like
every street corner.

... foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free
to come and go.

... a nation that had not one single element -
legislative, judicial or executive - of a
representative government, now does.

... in Baghdad alone residents have selected 88
advisory councils. Baghdad's first democratic transfer
of power in 35 years happened when the city council
elected its new chairman.

... today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business,
school and professional organizations are electing
their leaders all over the country.

... 25 ministers, selected by the most representative
governing body in Iraq's history, run the day-to-day
business of government.

... the Iraqi government regularly participates in
international events. Since July the Iraqi government
has been represented in over two dozen international
meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly,
the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today,
the Islamic Conference Summit. The Ministry of Foreign
Affairs announced that it is reopening over 30
Iraqi embassies around the world.

... Shia religious festivals that were all but banned,
aren't.

... for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala
thousands of Shiites celebrate the pilgrimage of the
12th Imam.

... the Coalition has completed over 13,000
reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of a
strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.

... Uday and Qusay are dead - and no longer feeding
innocent Iraqis to the zoo lions, raping the young
daughters of local leaders to force cooperation,
torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or
murdering critics.

... children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their
parents disagree with the government.

... political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured,
executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their
families die for disagreeing with Saddam.

... millions of longsuffering Iraqis no longer live in
perpetual terror.

... Saudis will hold municipal elections.

... Qatar is reforming education to give more choices
to parents.

... Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.

... the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first
time to an Iranian -- a Muslim woman who speaks out
with courage for human rights, for democracy and for
peace.

... Saddam is gone.

... Iraq is free.

But since GWB is in the White House, I guess none of that matters?

You don't even have to give GWB the credit either. Let's just say that it's America along with thirty other countries, Amos, that gave the Iraqi people their freedom. I'd be fine and happy with that from all of you. But if you can't even do that then you really didn't have any interest in the Iraqi people in the first place. As I've said before, I'm just looking for some consistency in your argument. Or does your blind hatred for our president prohibit you from seeing the good in helping another human?


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 09:48 PM

Yeah, CarolC, you'll love the last one... Apparently someone at Rush's office didn't check it out too well before sendin' it out to all the brownshirts and this one don't make Bush I or Bush II look too good...

I'm kinda surprised that bb didn't bother to check it out before postin' it. He really shouldn't trust Rush's staff these days as word on the street is that more than a few of them are hardcore druggies themselves...

And, just fir the record, unless yer livin' on Mars, bb, the observations I have made arwe very well supported by the Repub conrtolled mainstream media....

As fir violatin' a ceasefire agreement.... ahhhhh, are you talkin' about them occasionally tryin to bring down a foriegn oplane flying over their airspace??? Like maybe you'd like to allucidate on just how many planes they brought down???

As fir violatin UN resolutions??? What a joke... Maybe while yer in the mood, how many UN resolutions are the US and Isreal violating today??? Or have violated in ther last 10 years... Hey, if it makes it easier, jus' round it up to the nearest nummer with a zero on the end...

And don't give me that zero crap 'er I'll turn CarolC on you like the ugly and you'll find yerseff having to hide unner the bed....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 09:45 PM

bobert,

Unlike some here, if I find relevent information, I present it even if somre of it does not support my own desired viewpoint- I look for FACTS.

Care to comment on my 05 Jul 05 - 08:00 PM ?




CarolC,

Lucky you. I have seen no such documentation- it seems I am expected to take what is said as divine revelation, regardless.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 09:41 PM

"Meanwhile, still waiting on a friggin' APOLOGY from susu's Hubby fir callin' me a RACIST fir not buyin' into Bush's PR crap..."


No apology here, Bobster. I guess that means that you're just jealous?


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 09:30 PM

when you ask bobert for the documentation for his assertions.

or is it only the facts you don't like that you want to have evidence of?

I've already seen plenty of documentation for the things Bobert is asserting. I have not yet seen any documentation for the things you are asserting. I'll check out your links.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 09:22 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushprivate1.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 09:21 PM

Hmmmm, according to bb's charts it would appear that when the Repubs are in office the oil prices spike and when the Dems are in they are more stable...

Okay, I'm convinced.... Maybe we should have attacked Irag...

(But, Bobert, that don't make no sense... Why support the Repubs, or a needless war, when the oil price are gonna spike under "Big Oil" Repubs in control...)

Okay, I'm not convinced...

Maybe we need a few more bb links fir the reality of just how screwed we are under Bush to sink in...

Got anymore, bb???

BTW, you might wanta actually check them out before posting them 'cause that last one sho nuff din't help yer arguement on bit...

Meanwhile, still waiting on a friggin' APOLOGY from susu's Hubby fir callin' me a RACIST fir not buyin' into Bush's PR crap...

And I'd like one fir the other folks here who have been slandered for being, ahhhhhh, CORRECT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 09:10 PM

brarded bruce - Your link, "Houston-based Halliburton Co., the contractor hired by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to repair the dilapidated energy infrastructure, has been ordered to bring refined products into the country.

So far, U.S. taxpayers have spent some $562 million under the Halliburton contract to bring in gasoline and other fuels and make needed repairs to Iraq's gas distribution network, according to the Army Corps of Engineers. In fact, that effort has accounted for nearly half the $1.22 billion worth of work that Halliburton has performed in Iraq since the war.

Instead of blaming Iraqi fuel prices (which according to your link, have always been subsidized in Iraq) perhaps you should put a little pressure on Halliburton to do what millions of tax dollars have paid them to do.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 09:04 PM

When Bush visits Fallujah we will know the all clear has been sounded...

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushfalluja.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 08:59 PM

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/chron.html

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 08:45 PM

Susu's Hubby:

I submit that invading foreign countries unilaterally is about as wacko a policy as we have ever resorted to.

Like many here I protested the decision to prosecute Iraq for the sins of others not of Iraq; don't argue that this was not the case. In almost every speech he has made about the Middle East Bushbrain has tried to get people to associate the two things and insisted that invading Iraq was a reasonable extension of the "war on nounless generalizations".

I predicted that in doing so he would create a staging area for every disenchanted jihadist from the Med to Chernobyl to come take on the Great Satan. This may have seemed excessively clever to him, but I disagree. Consolidating a widely separated enemy is not usually a smart strategy.

Once the invasion was begun, I only hope we could end it quickly, but we could not, predictably. Especially because the Bushbrains in DC had no plan to follow up their inevitable overwhelm of the Iraqi army, and failed to understand how long reconstruction would take even without the insurgency which they so incompetently misunderestimated.

This has been one badass cockup from the gitgo, pal, and you know it.

If half the goddamn money that good-for-nothing poured down the drain in Mesopotamia had been spent on upgrading our energy independence we would be kissing Arab oil goodbye for once, instead of continuing to die for it.

And just by the way, ONE of the reasons Saddam's regime had to go is that they had promised their oil output to Elf Aquitaine, the French petroleum magnates.

A

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 08:42 PM

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/printstory.hts/page1/2122995

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 08:34 PM

when you ask bobert for the documentation for his assertions.


or is it only the facts you don't like that you want to have evidence of?

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 08:26 PM

We are buying oil from other countries and selling to the civilian population in Iraq at below our costs, to stabilize the government. The Iraqis are selling what oil they can get past the terrorists to the entire world, at market prices, as they were doing before.

beardedbruce, please provide some documentation for these assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 08:00 PM

Bobert,


How about because Saddam was in violation of the ceasefire agreement, multiple UN resolutions, and when given a FINAL chance refused to comply with his obligations under those terms and resolutions?


Or don't you think there should be any effective enforcement of ceasefire terms?

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 07:07 PM

Why would we invade Saudi Arabia, bb... They in tight with the Bushs... Been so going back everal deacades...

Okay, you tell me yer theory on why we're there, bb... This ougttta be interestin'....

Or if you'd like you can just pick from the evergrowing list:

1. WDM's

2. Mobile chemical labs

3. Nuclear weapons program

4. Drones capiable of dropping chemical weapons on us

5. Aluminum tubes

6. Ties to Osoma bin Forgotten

7. Saddam was a bad man

8. Ahhh, Iraq needs democracy

9. All of the above

10. None of the above but ____________________________. (fill in yer own here... Hey, you can't do worse than Bush who ain't even hit the target yet...)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 06:57 PM

The 05 Jul 05 - 06:48 PM Guest,CarolC post was from me.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 06:56 PM

Bobert,

Regardless of your accusations, you have never given any evidence that OIL had anything to do with it. Might as well say we are there for the sand- they have a lot of that, too. All I have asked for is some logic behind your wild comments.

We are buying oil from other countries and selling to the civilian population in Iraq at below our costs, to stabilize the government. The Iraqis are selling what oil they can get past the terrorists to the entire world, at market prices, as they were doing before. SO, where do you get the idea that the invasion was over oil or the control of oil? Did we invade Saudi Arabia? They have a lot more.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 06:53 PM

Screw you Hubby... Don't go callin' me no friggin racist because yer boy has an army disporportionately black killing other people of color in Iraq...

If there's any racism here it's on yer side of ther fence and you OWE ME AN APOLOGY...

I AM NOT A RACIST!!!!

But you won't give one. Why? Because you, like yer hero, think you can just say anything you want...

And, BTW, you OWE some other folks here an APOLOGY, too..

The gall...

I mean, this is about the dumbassedness thing you have ever said and that is sayin' somethin'...

Racist, my butt....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 06:48 PM

(This post is from me... I'll verify it when I can get in the front door.)

BTW, regarding this overly simplistic and totally wrong statement by you (and the two completely irrelevant choices that accompany it), "By your continued crying, you're really only saying one of two things"...

Just because you haven't thought about some things in depth doesn't mean that other people haven't. Don't think for me and I won't tell you how wrong you are.