BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 10:35 AM

You forget that most men are married, regardless of whether they have irrational fear and doubt.   If you don't have God to tell you how to live you still have a wife.

Joking apart, there are people out there who actually think that not being religious is vanity.   Honestly, hanging is too good for them...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 10:02 AM

It's not fair, really. We religious people have to work HARD for many years to form a good relationship with God. We have to engage in study, contemplation, self-examination ("the unexamined life is not worth living"), meditation, prayer, good works, self-discipline, the development of a degree of humility, recognition of the divine not only in oneself but in others too, acceptance of responsibility toward others as equals...it's a long and arduous course.

While all the atheist has to do to find God is...look in the mirror!

This is what my father did every day. He got up, looked out upon His worldly dominion with satisfaction, knowing He that was sovereign over all of it, went to the washroom, and looked at the face of God in the mirror while He shaved Himself. He then exercised His Godly and omnipotent powers over all the poor fools, dullards, and other lesser beings in His world for the rest of the day. Every day. He ruled!!!

It's so much simpler and less demanding than the religious life! And you get to be "Number One". And you're always right, and other people are always wrong. Bonus! No wonder it's become such a popular lifestyle choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:36 AM

I wonder if the thoughts of men
Who wax so scientific,
Are really just religious ploys
For causes beatific;
And whether gods are playing games
With darkness tenebrific,
And mortals locked in helices
Of soundings so specific.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:36 AM

No sooner said the Earth is round,
And formed from dark and void,
When up spake Harry in the back,
'You twit, it's ellipsoid!'

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:09 AM

One of Jack's main moans is that I'm inconsistent. But all he ever does is say I'm inconsistent. Whenever I ask him how I'm being inconsistent he never answers. It's literally what a parrot does: chunters out the same phrase again and again but can never expand on it. I suppose I could take the Jack/parrot analogy further but I'll leave it there for now...


There's nothing religious about atheism, which is esentially the belief that a particular spiritual proposition has been found wanting for lack of evidence. Let's not go distorting definitions just for the sake of argument.

Well I might substitute "conclusion" for "belief" but otherwise that'll do me, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:34 AM

Hey! Yes you! As a Mudcat member, you too can have a hobby!

All it takes is these two simple steps;

1. Start a thread in full knowledge it will insult the intelligence of rational people.

2. Attack everybody who points this out.

You too can be the centre of attention at all the parties you throw at ___________ (insert address or ship name) and after all, this has at least one advantage over self abuse, it won't impede your passage to heaven! Win, Win!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:30 AM

"Ah yes, a typical Stim post! So witty, yet so bereft of content! Would you at least admit that, unlike you, I put a bit of effort into mine? "

I don't think that is evident at all.

"I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead."

So wrote Mark Twain.

You don't even try to keep your opinions consistent within threads. You constantly repeat yourself. What ever bubbles up in your snarky mind seems to find its way directly through your fingers to this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:25 AM

Please read the article Amos. I think you will find it interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 11:22 PM

There's nothing religious about atheism, which is esentially the belief that a particular spiritual proposition has been found wanting for lack of evidence. Let's not go distorting definitions just for the sake of argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:35 PM

Stim, better to keep silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and prove it...

Do let us know when you have anything you'd like to discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:11 PM

Better to be be witty and bereft of content than protractedly so.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:28 PM

I do tend to post little, one-point posts, Steve. I find that it's better than posting big, pointless ones.

Ah yes, a typical Stim post! So witty, yet so bereft of content! Would you at least admit that, unlike you, I put a bit of effort into mine?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:26 PM

I post this because it refers to a survey that I see related to the topic. (Hopefully, it contributes to the discussion, rather than takes away from it).

The only information I get from the site host is he seeks increased political influence for Athiests and Agnostics. This seems to put his affiliation in a political camp, rather than a religious one - does it not?

It seems puzzling to me is some Athiests/Agnostics (or at least the one hosting the site) see those who identify as having no particular religious affiliation as being "in the same camp". To me, this is a big "leap of faith",(excuse the pun;) and such a determination would require much more investigation - as I suspect it is more complex than that.

   


Pew report

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 06:59 PM

Don
My problem with some of the old atheists on this thread is their insistence on some sort of an ideal scientific mindset . Many of the qualities describing the supposed "dogmatic mindset" here are actually essential to the working scientist -rigidity certainly is. Sometimes a scientist has to be stubborn in the face of new ideas- remember there was that UK scientist last year who swore to eat his underpants if a CERN experiment disproved Einstein. Even faith to some degree : in the course of their work scientists have to be confident that they're not completely off the mark in their experiments ,after all .

The real problems for science aren't mediaeval mindsets, but present-day lack of resources. Science isn't geared towards looking to the Universe . Almost all scientists are busily engaged in trying to secure work in industries that have little or no interest in new ways of looking at anything other than ways of staying afloat. When industry has no need for scientists , state funding for the teaching of science in schools dries up.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 05:19 PM

Stringsinger


It is apparent that you have not read the article, or the thread. You read two words, attached your own assumed meaning to them and dismissed them with self-referential logic. Thank you for your opinion, such as it is.

BTW here is a commonly accepted definition of "religion."

Please can you please provide a definition that requires the use of "unilateral thought to guide it" whatever that may be?

re·li·gion
/riˈlijən/
Noun

    The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
    Details of belief as taught or discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 05:06 PM

There is a misinterpretation of militant atheism which I don't think is real. Any refutation of religion is going to be interpreted by believers as militant as it offends what they think people should believe.

Dawkins has been accused of being "militant" when I think he is just reasonable.

Atheism can never be a religion because there is no unilateral thought that guides it.
Every atheist is slightly different in their objection to religion.

Every atheist I know, and I have known quite a lot, is not militant but searching and seeking a rational way to view the world. They are open to science which is always evolving and changing and never as dogmatic as any religious tenet.

This "militant atheism as a religion" is a propaganda device delivered by those who object to anyone who objects to their religious beliefs as being "universal".

You can't use science to support something that isn't real but is only in the minds of believers.

The logical fallacy remains, you can't support a negative in a discussion. The existence of a god is a negative. You can't prove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:33 PM

I do tend to post little, one-point posts, Steve. I find that it's better than posting big, pointless ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:04 PM

"I merely have to ask you for proof of your belief and that settles that."

Yet you have yet to do so. Because you would rather mock and snipe? Very irrational.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:13 PM

Hello Sailor!

Thanks for repeating my post. Perhaps if you type it out next time rather than cut and paste, it might just? ... Naw.

Militant? What do you mean by that? You're the one with the position to defend. I merely have to ask you for proof of your belief and that settles that. Militant? No. Just rational.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:01 PM

Just thought I'd throw this in here as a semi-relevant interest item:

'Atheist' shoe company claims U.S. Postal Service is discriminatory
By Stephen C. Webster
Wednesday, March 27, 2013 14:00 EDT

Using an incredibly clever infographic, a shoe company in Germany revealed this week that they conducted a study which found that boxes shipped to the U.S. with tape that reads "ATHEIST" were much more likely to be delayed or lost en route than packaging without the label.

The company, which is actually called Atheist Shoes, specializes in selling ostensibly handmade shoes that declare one's nonbelief in a deity.

"We have lots of customers in the USA, but sometimes the shoes we send them take longer than they should to arrive, or even go missing," a post on the Atheist Shoes website explains. "And when some of our customers asked us not to use ATHEIST-branded packaging tape on their shipments, we started to wonder if the delays were caused by the US Postal Service taking offence at our overt godlessness…"

They planned to test this theory with an ingenious bit of marketing zeal: they would mail two packages to 89 different people in 49 states, one with the ATHEIST tape and one without, and see how many arrive and how long it takes.

The results: Packages with ATHEIST tape took three days longer to arrive on average, and were 10 times more likely to never make it to their destination. The company added that they conducted similar tests in Germany and across Europe that exhibited no such bias.

"Interestingly, this seems to be a national problem — traditionally less religious and more liberal states also saw high levels of delay and disappearance," they wrote. "Sadly, many of our customers who took part in this experiment were not surprised by our findings, even thought tampering with post is a Federal Offence."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:00 PM

"You do not "use" science to support anything."

I don't know who the "you" is that Mr. Shaw is talking to. But Mr. Steve Shaw on this forum does it all the time.

Silly Billy.

Everything (except God, of course) is of science. It's a nonsense to say that you support things with science. The things are science. It's like saying my bones support my skeleton. Notions and assertions can be tested against the scientific method to see whether they make the evidence bar. If they do, it doesn't mean they are supported by science. It means they are worthy of being called hypotheses, or theories, that's all. It means they are supported by some evidence. Note the implicit uncertainties. 'Tis those that make science such a joy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 02:15 PM

""The words "dogma" , "dogmatic" "doctrine" and "doctrinaire" only ever seem to get used these days in their negative, pejorative senses - to denote hidebound, uncritical ways of thinking.""

Not just the word in many cases Mick, but also the systems they describe, and the people whose mindset they describe, are hidebound and uncritical.

Almost every scientist is busily trying to change previous theories by gaining new knowledge and producing new ways of looking at just about everything in his own area of expertise in the Universe.

Hardly hidebound or uncritical and definitely neither doctrinaire, nor a follower of dogma.

Can you say the same of those who rely on "You've got to have faith"?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 02:01 PM

"You do not "use" science to support anything."

I don't know who the "you" is that Mr. Shaw is talking to. But Mr. Steve Shaw on this forum does it all the time. Keep and eye out for it folks. You will see it soon, even though after reading this he will try his best not to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:56 PM

Science is only what can be observed.

That is the first time I've seen that wacky notion expressed here. Science cheerfully and openly expresses its shortcomings and gaps in knowledge. Science acknowledges that certain phenomena have yet to be properly observed because we have yet to develop the means to properly observe them. Science accepts that theories have to be under constant review as new knowledge comes to light. Good science knows no dogma. Dogma is the enemy of good science. Wow, Jack. Doesn't all that make your little sentence above look so dismal. It's a good job you don't actually think it. And neither does anyone else.

I can proudly use Science as an ally to support my atheistic arguments.

You do not "use" science to support anything. Science is neutral. What you do is to subject assertions made to you to the rigour of science. Now whilst science acknowledges its own gaps (see above), it is still perfectly valid to check assertions made to you against the bar of evidence. It can be quite a high bar. Your assertion may not satisfy every demand of evidence but it may do so sufficiently to be allowed as a hypothesis or theory. Those two words simply express notions that are of interest to science because, at least in part, until further evidence comes to light, they can yield to exploration via the scientific method. All good stuff. But it is possible to make an assertion that can never yield to scientific enquiry. The existence of God is one such. He is defined in such a way as to be not only outside the laws of nature but also to be beyond investigation. Now this is quite a serious matter. It doesn't take the average scientist long to accept that there isn't much point pursuing the existence of God as a scientific project. Do you see? Science at this juncture has parted company with God. They don't even connect tangentially. They can't communicate. You can't use science either to prove or disprove God because the two simply don't see each other.

Now my problem as an atheist is, who actually defined God in that way? Was it people? Or did someone come down to primitive Man in a chariot of fire and permanently imbue him with the God notion? I'm a little suspicious that God was deliberately designed to be both above all natural laws and inaccessible. A God of that kind can never be challenged. His truth cannot be undermined. Those tenets are enshrined in the major religions. Further embellishments to the story turn God into someone who intervenes and who can be quite authoritarian. That is also rather useful to big religion. So my suspicions stack up. I turn back to the only rational means I know, the scientific method, to assess all the evidence. And find it wanting. Absent, in fact. That's what makes an atheist an atheist. Note that at no time do I say that God does not exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:21 PM

The thing is, Steve, you tend to trash others, and what you imagine their beliefs to be, rather than simply expressing your own. You tend to tilt at windmills, which, can either be amusing or annoying, depending on the weather...and so it goes...

You post little one-point posts on the whole. A couple of times recently you've posted condescending stuff such as the above. The irony of your trying to trash me in this manner, whilst at the same time complaining about my alleged trashings, is completely lost on you, I suppose. My posts tend to be a bit more involved than yours, picking up on what someone has said and dissecting it carefully. If you think that amounts to trashing I might have to disagree. In the cases where, weak sod that I am, I respond to silly posts with sarcasm, it still isn't trashing. The poster of the silly post has already trashed himself before I even get there. Now why don't you just address things point by point as they come up?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:21 PM

Musket,

There is a difference between wanting others to show some maturity and not piss on my bonfire and having them actually show some maturity and stop doing so.


Musket said..

"Although look at those who complain when someone pisses on their bonfire."

Perhaps we ought to consider the credibility and motives of those who consider their own contributions to the discussion as "pissing on a bonfire."

Musket said...

"Sailor Jack wants to be left alone to discuss religion with his mates.

Fair play.

But publicly posting on the BS section of Mudcat precludes blinkered debate as the grown ups may want to join in.

As is their right.

I have a fascination with religion. I remain fascinated how intelligent people can see it as relevant.   I have every right to explore my fascination and others have the right to tell me to bugger off.

Snag is, I remsin curious because if your God is omnipotent rather than impotent, he / she should be able to brush off the carping and ridicule of immature idiots like me.

Do why be so touchy? Why keep looking for protection and finding ways of dreaming that lack of superstition is some sinister plot?

You started the bloody thread. Don't complain about where it is heading. . "

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:54 PM

MtheGM

I can't recall having seen you chase your own tail in these arguments. I can't recall you being militant or mean when you engage in them.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:51 PM

The words "dogma" , "dogmatic" "doctrine" and "doctrinaire" only ever seem to get used these days in their negative, pejorative senses - to denote hidebound, uncritical ways of thinking. But there is an element of dogma and doctrine in all systematic attempts to explain the world, whether the attempts are scientific or mystical: the passing-on of any firmly held opinion through teaching must necessarily involve dogma and doctrine to some extent. The early doctors of the church taught and passed on a body of knowledge to seminarians, doctors of science did, and still do, the same thing. The notion of the world being supported on the back of a giant turtle was dogma for people in some parts of the world, as was the Garden of Eden myth for Christians .Things have moved on, but I wouldn't deny that the idea of humans being descended from lower life forms isn't dogma for those who espouse the theory of evolution. It is for me, because without that central idea, the whole theory of evolution collapses.


The problem I have with new atheists is about the insulting language they use to religious people, not the fact that they hold strong opinions on the issue of evolution. I agreed with a lot of what the article said, but thought that it over-emphasized the similarities between the supposed "rigid mindsets" of protagonists on either side of this debate. By putting an equals sign between two sets of rigid "doctrinaires" it could leave readers with the impression that the evolution versus creationist controversy is really nothing more than two sets of blinkered antagonistic dogmatists slugging it out over which side of the same coin is more valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:46 PM

The thing is, Steve, you tend to trash others, and what you imagine their beliefs to be, rather than simply expressing your own. You tend to tilt at windmills, which, can either be amusing or annoying, depending on the weather...and so it goes...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:43 PM

Not sure how 'militant' an atheist I might qualify to be, Jack; but an avowed and convinced atheist is certainly what I am; and I have not, to the best of my recollection, mentioned the word 'science', or any synonym thereof, on this thread until now. I have no need of any sort of science to indicate to me what concepts I find unacceptable to what seems to me any world view of any conceivable rationality or intellectual respectability.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:06 PM

I can't think of militant atheist on this forum who haven't is some way or another put forth BOTH of these ideas.

Science is only what can be observed.

I can proudly use Science as an ally to support my atheistic arguments.

Until they reconcile these things in their heads they will remain the intellectual equals of puppies chasing their tails.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 11:48 AM

Ever explored all the possibilities love can bring??....Oh, it must not be....you can't see it








..unless you have eyes to see it.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:26 AM

It explains not being willing to look outside one's usual favorite habits and assumptions. It also means thinking that your usual way of doing things is the ONLY valid way of doing things, and that no other approach to life is even worthy of your consideration.

For instance, you might get a person who respects nothing except math and science and logic...and material things. (like my father)

How is he going to assess what is a good poem and what is not a good poem? Math, science, and logic will not assist him in doing so.

My father was incapable of assessing what is a good poem and what is not a good poem (and he freely admitted to this on one occasion I remember)...because it didn't fall in an area he could relate to...or wanted to relate to.

This didn't mean, ipso facto, that there are no good or bad poems, and it didn't mean that poetry has no value. It just meant he had no comprehension of what constitutes good poetry, and he never would, and his math, science, and logic couldn't do a thing to change that.

They are not the answer to everything in life. They are just the answer to some of the things in life, in the particular areas where they can effectively be applied. To think they ARE the answer to everything is to adhere to a form of fundamentalist dogmatism that is quite similar to the most dogmatic forms of religion, in that it thinks it already has all the answers to all the questions worth asking.

It doesn't. And it never will.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Musket
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:16 AM

It means the same as anything else where the supernatural and metaphysical has to be shoehorned into rational debate....

Considering "science" doesn't justify anything other than what is observed and deduced, and considering no branch of science has, to my knowledge, proved that there is no intelligent force somewhere behind observing rats running in cages, it means Sailor Boy has been looking up words in his dictionary. In fact, all "science" has proposed is that the evidence doesn't fall in line with the scriptures organised religions depend on.

And that pisses off a few people. Mainly those who have comfort blankets and especially those who sell them.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:08 AM

Dogmatism about Science to justify atheism.

Anyone care to explain what this means?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:04 AM

Well I take you seriously. I respond carefully to what you post. Just because you may not like it, it doesn't mean my response wasn't serious. It means "I don't agree with you, and here's why..." I suggest that if you don't take seriously someone who takes you seriously, you'd better be careful that you're not taken for a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:39 AM

Militant atheism has become a religion


I'll believe that when it has a tax-free status.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:02 AM

I am never truly offended by anything you say, Steve, because I don't take you very seriously. I hope you're not offended by that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:01 AM

Dogmatism about Science to justify atheism. Dr der Waal would be pleased!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:22 PM

The most important bit of your two posts is the phrase "Outside the practice of science itself..." Vital to remember that charlatanism in science is not of science.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:09 PM

""I can still recall vividly how Freud said to me, 'My dear Jung, promise me never to abandon the sexual theory. That is the most essential thing of all. You see, we must make a dogma of it, an unshakable bulwark' ... In some astonishment I asked him, 'A bulwark-against what?' To which he replied, 'Against the black tide of mud'—and here he hesitated for a moment, then added—'of occultism'.""
— Carl Jung,Memories, Dreams, Reflections

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:02 PM

""Outside the practice of science itself, scientists have sometimes been the greatest offenders in adhering to dogmatic ideas against all the evidence"".
— Mary B. Hesse, Science and the Human Imagination: Aspects of the History and Logic of Physical Science (1955).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:47 PM

I might if I expected your             to make sense.


Heheh...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:21 PM

"Aren't you both scratching your heads?"

I might if I expected your to make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:08 PM

religion is....the primitive mind's solution for what we can't yet grasp.

I note that both Jack and Stim appeared to have taken offence at this, yet it is the exact position of religion, ironically, virtually as religion defines itself. We are not to question that which is beyond science. No matter how improbable, no matter how he breaks all nature's laws, God is God and faith must trump questions. Our feeble minds cannot grasp it. We must, instead, relish the mystery! It's a shame you don't care for what Peter said, considering that it's the very basis of and rationale for all religious belief. Aren't you both scratching your heads?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 08:58 PM

All you're missing there, Stim, is that there is no equivalence. Atheism is a logical response to everything we know; religion is wishful thinking: the primitive mind's solution for what we can;t yet grasp.

You beat me to it, Peter. Equivalence between religious belief and the shunning of same is a completely bogus invention of religion. If it weren't for the fact that we are undeniably flesh and blood, we would be no more than a figment of the imaginations of the faithful. And if there were no faithful, we, without doing a single stroke, wouldn't exist at all, and not one scrap of philosophy would have been lost.

And, actually, switching sides is not a radical conversion, because you're still playing the same game.

And what game would that be? Atheists, Stim, are not tacticians. We don't even make up teams. To play a game we need a pitch, but we have none. The only pitch is on your turf, which, of course, is exactly where you want us. But our evanescence will continue to elude you. We are only here because you need us here, a foil to your insecurity of belief. There is no game! There are no sides, no pitch, no teams, no tactics! We don't compete! Not much of a game, eh!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 07:48 PM

""It is rigid dogma that destroys truth; and, please notice, my emphasis is not on the dogma, but on the rigidity. When men say of any question, 'This is all there is to be known or said of the subject; investigation ends here,' that is death.It may be that the mischief comes not from the thinker but for the use made of his thinking by late-comers. Aristotle, for example, gave us out scientific technique ... yet his logical propositions, his instruction in sound reasoning which was bequeathed to Europe, are valid only within the limited framework of formal logic, and, as used in Europe, they stultified the minds of whole generations of mediaeval Schoolmen. Aristotle invented science, but destroyed philosophy.""
— Alfred North Whitehead, Dialogues of Alfred North Whitehead

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 07:19 PM

Thanks for proving the point, PeterK!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 06:41 PM

>>>...it is as possible for people to be rigid, dogmatic and doctrinaire on any side of any issue.

All you're missing there, Stim, is that there is no equivalence. Atheism is a logical response to everything we know; religion is wishful thinking: the primitive mind's solution for what we can;t yet grasp. <<

Interesting that the point is proved in the argument against it, name calling, rigidity and dogma in a single sentence.

Calling our minds primitive has no basis in fact and undermines your claim to logic.

As Bill D said, some things cannot be proven one way or the other. Claiming that you know absolutely is rigid dogma. Not even Mr Shaw, who you say expresses your views, goes that far.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 06:26 PM

...it is as possible for people to be rigid, dogmatic and doctrinaire on any side of any issue.

All you're missing there, Stim, is that there is no equivalence. Atheism is a logical response to everything we know; religion is wishful thinking: the primitive mind's solution for what we can;t yet grasp.