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BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: dianavan Date: 12 Mar 05 - 07:05 PM I am beginning to believe that Sgrena was considered an enemy of the U.S. govt. and was targetted. From a former U.S. intelligence officer: "I also believe that a clear motivation for preventing Sgrena from telling her story is quite evident. Let us recall that the first target in the second attack upon the city of Fallujah was al-Fallujah General Hospital. Why? It was the reporting of enormous civilian casualties from this hospital that compelled the US to halt its attack. In other words, the control of information from Fallujah as to consequences of the US assault, particularly with regard to civilians, became a critical element in the military operation. Now, in a report by Iraq's health ministry we are learning that the US used mustard, nerve gas and napalm in the manner of Saddam against the civilian population of Fallujah. Sgrena, herself, has provided photographic evidence of the use of cluster bombs and the wounding of children there. I have searched in vain to find these reports in any major corporate media. The American population, for the most part, is ignorant of what its military is doing in their name and must remain so in order for the US to wage its war against the Iraqi people. Information, based upon intelligence or the reporting of brave journalists, may be the most important weapon in the war in Iraq. From this point of view, the vehicle in which Nicola and Giuliana were riding wasn't simply a vehicle carrying a hostage to freedom. It is quite reasonable to assume, given the immorality of war and of this war in particular, that it was considered a military target." Jerry Fresia is a former US Air Force intelligence officer. He now lives in Italy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: dianavan Date: 12 Mar 05 - 06:52 PM From news24.com - "Mario Marioli, a deputy commander of the US-led coalition troops in Iraq, was quoted by the Italian newspaper La Repubblica as saying: "I asked Calipari if I should inform our American allies of the hostage-freeing operation, but his reply was that under no circumstances was the ally to be informed." Sounds about right. Blame it on the dead guy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: GUEST,Mr. Guest Date: 12 Mar 05 - 05:51 PM isn't it interesting how Troll, like his esteemed leaders so often do, chooses to use quotes but leave out the line that doesn't support his self centered viewpoint? (thanx don firth) so it's not really a lie (and i'm sure Troll would be self-rightously horrified if it were so characterized) but merely a distortion of the actual message of the quote. by the way since you don't speak to those who don't "identify" themselves (as you do with your distinctive name "Troll") just call me MR.guest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 12 Mar 05 - 04:46 PM Robo, I mentioned Russia's role in the war only becaue you referred to the Stalin-Ribbentrop pact. And I'm not sure on the evidence so far that I have a better opinion of Sgrena than you have. People can be flaky whatever their political affiliations. Orwell took (I would say stole) the idea for Animal Farm from Gertrude Elias, an Austrian who fled to the UK before WW2. During the war she submitted a proposal to the BBC, where it was read by Orwell. She included illustrations in which people were shown as animals - pigs the leaders, horses the workers, etc. All of which would be completely irrelevant except that her satire was against fascism, not communism. Orwell's book could be against whatever you want it to be against, but for sure it's against totalitarianism of any sort. Books on the subject can be heavy going unless you're a political anorak, but there are less intimidating sources. In case you don't have access to it, I'll PM you the Encyclopaedia Britannica entry on eurocommunism. In France, communists were getting as much as a third of the popular vote in the early 1950s. But needless to say, they were not voting for a monster in the Stalin mould. No doubt they were helped by a reaction to France's pro-fascist stance in the war, but their electoral strength is something many in the US (I'm not saying you) find impossible to comprehend. As far as religion goes, I'm all for putting respect for fellow human beings ahead of respect for whatever gods people choose to worship. On the question of religion v socialism you could try Tawney's study, "Religion and the Rise of Capitalism." It presents a persuasive picture of a very unsavoury alliance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Don Firth Date: 12 Mar 05 - 12:49 PM Correction: If I am not for myself, who am I? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now, when? —Rabbi Hillel Respectfully submitted, Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: dianavan Date: 12 Mar 05 - 11:50 AM Troll - "...anyone can talk to a soldier who is just back from Iraq and get the real story of how the Iraqi people feel. But no, it's so much more satisfying to have ones predjudices reinforced instead of actually thinking for ones self." So how does talking to a soldier help you think for yourself? I repeat, since when does a soldier think for himself? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: robomatic Date: 12 Mar 05 - 10:42 AM Hey Peter: A somewhat better post than your previous one, so I'll try to be nice: Blaming all communists for Stalinism is like blaming all Christians for the Inquisition. It is tarring with one brush, yet there is a lot of blame to go round. Dragging in the fact that Russia did yeoman's work to defeat the Germans in WWII has little if anything to do with Communism. If you know much about the war you'll know that the Germans were first welcomed as liberators by Ukrainians and Russians until they learned there could actually be something worse than Communism. I'm not so worried that every Communist is as you have determined Stalin to be "paranoid psychopath - probably certifiable". Maybe that's true, but the guy ran the largest country in the world for about 30 years, had nuclear weapons, and managed to die in bed. The Communists with him as their leader had one-party rule by terror for the whole of that time and a generation after. So I'm worried about the millions of people who FOLLOWED the "paranoid psychopath - probably certifiable" and were so blind as to write praises to him and his ilk. You managed to spend more words than my original post saying a lot less. I also put forth that Communism was much more than a political party, it sought to supplant religion, philosophy, and to a point, science (unless it could be shown to serve the state, one guess as to who made that determination). As for books, you advise me to read some but you didn't bother to point out a one. Some folks local to me gave me a book by Marcuse which I found unreadable. So may I commend to you Orwell's "Animal Farm", "1984", and Koestler's "Darkness At Noon". Is the fact that there are eurocommunists now any different from the fact that there are euronazis now? As far as does knowing that a reporter is or has Communist sympathies informative of bias, I think it profoundly IS. And while waiting for more facts of this affair to come out, I think we have already seen Ms. Sgrena having problems with facts and no fear of asserting opinions as facts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Troll Date: 12 Mar 05 - 10:14 AM Dinavan, you say "nationalist" like it's a nasty thing. As Hillel said, "If I am not for me, who is? And if not now, when"? It was the failure of the Soviet Union to recognize the deep feelings that people had for their own countries and traditions (language, religeon, currency, etc.) These feelings caused them to have to have troops in nearly every country under the Communist rule, ostensibily to protect against a NATO (or whatever) attack. In reality, they were there to keep the populance in line and to keep nationalism down. As history will note, as soon as they could, they declared their independence and became their own nations again. Yes, I am a Nationalist. I love my country and want it to be first among nations. If this gives me a "very limited world perspective" , oh well. Under our system of government, you are entitled to express your opinion. For whatever it's worth. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 12 Mar 05 - 08:52 AM Robomatic, I would have thought your last post makes it plain enough that you think all those who call themselves communist are tarred with one brush. OK,so you've never heard about eurocommunism and its split with Stalinism - that much was obvious. So read a bit, or travel a bit, and take a look at how the eurocommunists have engaged in mainstream politics in countries like France and Italy. And don't be frightened - some of them have behaved quite responsibly. It doesn't all come down to the Stalin Ribbentrop pact, and incidentally if you're going to attach such weight to that, it would be reasonable to remember that it was Russians, putting their lives on the line on a scale never seen before or since, that saved Europe from fascism. (OK, Russia joined battle only because Germany declared war. But then it was Hitler declaring war on the US that put an end to America's evasions too.) I know a number of journalists who are happy to call themselves communist. On the whole, they are rational, thinking, open-minded and conscientious people. If it turns out that Ms Sgrena is unreliable or untrustworthy, then that will be a personal weakness and not - as you imply - the consequence of her being a communist. Stalin was a paranoid psychopath - probably certifiable - and an out-and-out despot. To assume all commies are like that is as absurd as to assume all capitalists are like the war-mongering George Bush Jnr. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 12 Mar 05 - 07:11 AM I don't have any real problem with the US putting it's interests first - I am - like many others - just pissed off that OUR stupid wankers of Politicians are so easily bribed as to ALSO put U.S. interests ahead of Australian (or any other of their own country's) ones! I have heard in news here that there was definitely no tank - just humvees (this misunderstanding could have been due to a translation glitch) - and I still don't know just what the hell that nasty looking object is on top of the nice Humvee piccie linked to above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: dianavan Date: 12 Mar 05 - 01:22 AM troll - "The real reason was that we are the most powerful nation on earth and they want the whole world to be islamic. And they TOLD us this and the fools wouldn't listen. "No, they said, It must be something we did." Spoken like a true Nationalist and a person who has a very limited world perspective. Since when did a soldier think for himself? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Troll Date: 12 Mar 05 - 12:00 AM Fionn, I said nothing about her being a communist. What I was referring to was her anti-American background. Raedwulf, anyone who is working in a war zone, especially as a war correspondent, is going to know the difference between a tank and an armored humvee. If they don't, thare suffering from lethal stupidity and/or the people who sent them there without a proper briefing are guilty of criminal neglect. My point about the tank I will repeat since some missed the point. If she had been targeted by the US for whatever reason, AND a tank was present, then the tanks maingun would have been used to take out the car and the death of everyone aboard would have been asured. Foolestroupe, I'll ansewr you since I won't recognize those too cowardly to identify themselves. The US in it's relationships with other countries on this planet has and should always put its interests first. I know that this horrifies all you "lets not offend anyone at any price" types but it is typical of governments since the beginnings of recorded history. It is not the job of this or any American administration to make the world love America. It is their job to protect the citizens of this country from outside forces and if they don't do it, you may rest assured that our country and our way of life are doomed. I remember after 9/11 how some people wondered why the bin Laden and his cohorts hated us so. What had we done to arouse such hatred? And the answer was that we were overbearing and interferring and greedy and a whole host of similar claptrap. The real reason was that we are the most powerful nation on earth and they want the whole world to be islamic. And they TOLD us this and the fools wouldn't listen. "No, they said, It must be something we did." That the Iraqi people and the whole middle east is better off with the fall of Saddam is evident to everyone except those who want the US, or the Bush administration, to fail. They KNOW that success will only strengthen the US and so they report only the disasters and everyone watches (or watched) Dan Blather and his ilk telling us how badly we are doing and how much our credibility has slipped when anyone can talk to a soldier who is just back from Iraq and get the real story of how the Iraqi people feel. But no, it's so much more satisfying to have ones predjudices reinforced instead of actually thinking for ones self. And why we should worry about what the world thinks is beyond me. Europe will not love us until the EU is the world power no matter what we do or say. Africa and South America want out aid so they generally keep quiet. India and China are quietly working to overtake us and they may well do it. But not for quite a while yet and anyone that thinks that all the worlds countries are not acting solely in their own interest is too damn naive to be allowed out without a keeper. I'll close now. I haven't told you anything that you didn't already know about either yourself or the current situation troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Don Firth Date: 11 Mar 05 - 08:00 PM John PMed me. I PMed John. Everything's copacetic. That's the civilized way. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: robomatic Date: 11 Mar 05 - 07:16 PM Peter: Here we have some regular guys trying to act like gentlemen and talk TO each other rather than past each other. Then you chime in with a rather supercilious air and assure me that all is well without really saying anything. I don't recall the 'Eurocommunist party' ever really existing. I recall various Communist parties. I recall the Stalin-Ribbentrop pact and a few other things that maybe you don't take too seriously, but I think they affected Europe more than you seem to. You had a chance to spread some light which was what I was trying to elicit, but instead you brought some grease. I don't like grease. It tends to spread a lot of smoke around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Don Firth Date: 11 Mar 05 - 06:34 PM I should undoubtedly stay out of the BS section, too. The whole place seems to generate more heat than light. It tends to get me hot under the collar, accomplishes little, and wastes an incredible amount of time. I have nothing but respect for musicians, artists, and crafts persons who chose to try to make it self-employed. Been there, done that. It's a rough row to hoe, but even a modicum of success can bring an immense amount of satisfaction. John, even though we often disagree here in the BS section, I have always considered you one of the more reasonable debaters, and I have no wish or intention to treat you in a condescending manner. If I seem to have done so, I'm sorry. Just for kicks, I checked your pix in the "Member Photos and Info" section (one of these days I'm going to get off my duff and put my mug-shot in there). You do darn nice work!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Ebbie Date: 11 Mar 05 - 06:30 PM I re-read the thread John Hardly linked to and it seems to me that Don Firth's voice and views were among the more moderate. Voices were raised in a number of places and from various people but I don't see condescension there. In fact, because of his strong opinion Strick's attitude - as he acknowledged - was a bit over the top; he insulted a number of people. Not the best thread, imo, to illustrate your point, John Hardly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: John Hardly Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:39 PM I don't like 'em either -- feuds, that is. For a over a year I had my settings set on "no BS" here, and I prolly shoulda kept it that way. Yeah, we talk past each other. Yer a peach. Everybody knows that. I'll just not shake your tree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:20 PM Robomatic (and Raedwulf up to a point), eurocommunists have been participating constructively for very many years in democratic politics at parliamentary level in varioius European countries, not least Italy. They do take the view that nobody should have a lot until veryone has enough (as I do), but it's an aspiration they pursue through the democratic process. To imply that eurocommunists ever took their orders from Moscow is absurd. And in the case of Tito, who called himself a communist and was widely regarded as such, he made his defiance of Stalin (easily the most difficult of all so-called communists to defy) public knowledge. The story about Gorbachev and a supermarket obviously means a lot to you, Robo. I hope no grown-up comes along and spoils it for you by letting slip that it might not be true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Don Firth Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:12 PM Okay. Not "disdain," John. Nor "condescension." And I don't see that I "own the ball." Once again, you're reading things into it that I don't intend. We seem to be talking past each other, which is why I don't see that there's any point to continuing. I don't like feuds. And I didn't start this. But I'm perfectly willing to talk about it with you if we can come to some point of agreement, and to me, that would seem to be having enough respect for each other to at least attempt to avoid misinterpretation. So where do you want to go from here? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: John Hardly Date: 11 Mar 05 - 04:48 PM Well, since you took the prerogative (as opposed to prerogainetive -- BIG hairy difference) to, " see no point in prolonging this discussion", I guess it would be presumptuous and impolite for me to, you know, respond. I'm never sure how to play with the guy who has owns the ball. You seem to be a swell guy. Sorry we never were able to get past my offense and your disdain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Don Firth Date: 11 Mar 05 - 04:13 PM John, I reread that whole thread, and granted, I got pretty steamed (mostly at people accusing me of saying something that I wasn't saying at all, not unlike this thread), but I can't find anything that I said to Strick, or anyone else, that qualifies as "character assassination." Others on that thread took issue with him far more vociferously than I did. In fact, I found instances where you attacked me pretty strongly, accusing me of "cutting and pasting" to avoid thought, which I corrected you about, and you acknowledged that you had been wrong. Strick, on the other hand, deliberately misinterpreted several things I wrote, including a semi-humerous reference of mine, trying to undercut my argument by accusing me of getting my philosophical position from an episode of Star Trek. If there was any "character assassination" going on there, it wasn't coming from me. I invite anyone who has the time, the inclination, and the stomach for it, to click on your link, read the thread, and judge for themselves. I see no point in prolonging this discussion. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Raedwulf Date: 11 Mar 05 - 03:23 PM Troll - Please at least do the rest of us the courtesy of reading the thread properly! The tank question has already been more than dealt with. Every report states that Signor Calipari was killed by a bullet (not a shell fragment). Tanks mount machine guns as well as main cannon, so a tank could quite easily have been present & active. And for those who are not overly conversant with military terminology, I'm damn sure that a Humvee looks rather more like a tank than a family saloon car. Especially when it's shooting at you! The one question that I am sure every contributor to this thread would like answered (regardless of nationality or political leaning) is: "Why is Signor Calipari dead?" May I suggest (it'll be ignored, I know... *grin*) that we stop bitching at each other until some better answers are available? Because, at the moment, we all seem to be agreeing that we need more data, & yet argue anyway! Regards, R |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Raedwulf Date: 11 Mar 05 - 03:10 PM Peter - I blush slightly. Ta! What I meant by "twice over" is that first, she is a journalist, & second she apparently holds a relatively extreme political p-o-v. Journalists are not policemen & are not employed to be truthful. They are employed to write saleable copy. Judicious manipulation of available facts can produce an extremely good story without ever coming remotely close to either pole of Truth or Lie! If she is also a follower of a particular political ideology, particularly an extreme & one-sided ideology such as communism, she is extremely unlikely to be entirely objective or rational in her interpretation of events. Especially events that she personally participated in. Hence, deliberately or otherwise, her version of events is going to be distorted. To be blunt, I do not disbelieve Sgrena's version of events, but neither do I trust it, particularly since her story has been "evolving", shall we say. Some of this, undoubtedly, is down to post-trauma effect as Wolfgang has noted. However, no-one with a grain of intelligence could possibly claim her inconsistent testimony is the "unvarnished truth". Of the three possible versions, Sgrena's is the least reliable in my opinion. Regards, R |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: John Hardly Date: 11 Mar 05 - 02:31 PM Don, You're right in that, most of the time, you are merely condescending. But you indeed make it a regular practice of characterizing what others think for them. I was going to look back through my archives to find this kind of exchange between the two of us but, in 5 years here I've amassed over a thousand posts. It was too cumbersome. Fortunately, though, I stumbled upon this pretty quickly into my search. Your character (assaination?) of Strick in this exchange is pretty much "pigeonholing". If not, it's close enough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Don Firth Date: 11 Mar 05 - 01:09 PM John, the only place I can think of where we have had a protracted exchange recently was in the "'Strengthening' Social Security" thread. I've reread that thread quite thoroughly, and although we don't see eye to eye on the matter of Social Security and Bush's push for private accounts, it looks to me like a fairly reasonable discussion. I see nothing that would indicate to anybody that I am "pigeon-holing" you. In fact, others on that thread are responding to you in a much harsher and more personal manner than I ever did. Are you sure it's me you're thinking of? Or possibly someone else. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Don Firth Date: 11 Mar 05 - 12:47 PM John, point out a few instances where I have pigeon holed you. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: John Hardly Date: 11 Mar 05 - 07:20 AM Having suffered much pigeon-holing at your hands, Don, I find your posts quite ironic. Ironic and humorous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: robomatic Date: 11 Mar 05 - 06:20 AM Well, as I grew up and navigated the 'isms' Communism seemed to me to be a perversion of Socialism with totalitarianism thrown in as a sort of bonus. I know there were variations, such as Stalanism and Trotskyism and I suppose Leninism, and we haven't even journeyed back to Marxism (I never heard of Engelism but by now I'm on a roll). Communism also suffered from its adherents giving information to and taking direction from foreign governments, unless they happened to already be in Russia. In short, Communism seemed to be whatever the boss and his henchmen said it was. As the bosses got older along with the workforce, it seemed to peter out until Gorby made his legendary visit to an American supermarket. Communism also claimed to be proudly atheistic while yet suffering all the disadvantages of slavish beliefs without evidence. (And Communists didn't believe in Darwin). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:52 AM And Vietnam only pretended to be 'Communist' after WWII when its pleas to the Western Powers for help went unheeded, and the Colonial Attitude prevailed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:46 AM Some in the west, and in in particular very many in the US, seem to have been brainwashed into believing that anything to do with communism is automatically bad. Troll's post above typifies this attitude. (Strangely, some of those who subscribe to it still manage to be impressed by those who stood out against the HUAC witch-hunt in the US.) There is a world of difference between eurocommunism, which is the predominant strand of communism in Italy, and Stalinism. By most estimations Tito's regime in Yugoslavia was communist, yet it brought a period of stability to the region unprecedented in the past 200 years. And among all the warring factions in Croatia, Bi-H and Serbia in the 1990s, the one thing they all had in common ws respect for Tito. If you have to rush to judgment on Ms Sgrena, Troll, try to judge her for herself rather than against whatever stereotypes you've filled your head with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 Mar 05 - 04:07 AM Well put GUEST! The US Political Administration just keeps on shooting itself in the foot with regard to its credibility - the And some Americacans (interesting Freudian typo that one!) wonder why much of the rest of the world is cynical... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: GUEST Date: 11 Mar 05 - 03:11 AM "The reason that the US is instantly at fault in matters like these is that there are those who hate whatever administration is in power and want to see it fail, even at the expense of innocent people. There are others who hate America for political reasons..." god am i sick of you "hate america" morons. the reason many people suspect the US government in cases like these is because america has been involved in many covert and overt operations resembling this type of thing for, like, DECADES! many have been proven and many have even been admitted to by the gov't (many years after the fact, of course). read a history book! many people in other parts of the world hate america because america has intervened in their soverign affairs and manipulated their governments to the USs own advantage! in other words, to simplify for the morons, the US has a credibility problem. for americans to realize this and point it out does not mean they "hate america". it means they are fulfilling their duty as citizens to reign in a corrupt regime. our own. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: dianavan Date: 11 Mar 05 - 01:51 AM Has anyone heard if it was during the day or at night? I have also heard that her kidnappers would not accept a ransom. Wow, is this story a mixed up mess. I think its what Hunter Thompson referred to when he wrote, "Myths and legends die hard in America. We love them for the extra dimension they provide, the illusion of near-infinite possibility to erase the narrow confines of most men's reality." This is the industry of deception and ethically altered politicians. To most of the world, it seems to be America's biggest export. Its not as if its the first time the U.S. administration has lied. I certainly don't blame the soldiers. How easy it is to withold information as a means to an end. How easy it is to follow orders. How easy it is to kill someone with friendly fire if you perceive that person to be a threat. Its war. Shit happens. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Troll Date: 11 Mar 05 - 12:30 AM The reason that the US is instantly at fault in matters like these is that there are those who hate whatever administration is in power and want to see it fail, even at the expense of innocent people. There are others who hate America for political reasons, so America is alwaye wrong, even if they have to tell the most outrageous lies to achieve that goal. I am not saying that the US, the Bush Administration, or anyone else is perfect, but I have noticed over the years that we are always persumed guily by certain groups even if proven innocent. This incident could be investigated by Saddam himself and if the US was found to be not at fault, there are those who would stridently complain that it was a whitewash job. I have seen several different accounts of the incident. In one Ms Sgrena said that they were going slow and in an earlier account that they were going so fast that the driver was having trouble keeping the car on the road. I don't reacll if she said the road was wet or not. Then theres the questiom of the tank. If a tank had fired it's cannon at the car and hit it, there would have been NO survivors. I am sure that everyone has seen, over the past years, light vehicles hit by tank fire and no, an armored Humvee is not a tank. It doesn't even look like a tank. I post my own conspiracy theory at this point. It all happened according to any one of a half-dozen possible scenarios and Ms. Sgrena saw an opportunity to blacken the US eye and increase her own standing in the anti-American media community. A win-win situation for her unless she can be proven a liar. From the different stories she's been telling, that may not be too difficult. We shall see. troll BTW Wolfgang, the fact that she writes for a moderate German magazine doesn't negate her stated political leanings. And the German Govt. didn't pay the ransom. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Don Firth Date: 10 Mar 05 - 10:18 PM We're okay, then. Carry on. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Mar 05 - 08:25 PM Don, I was wrong in my interpretation of your comment- I apologize. 8-{E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: GUEST,Don Firth Date: 10 Mar 05 - 08:00 PM Yes, BB, you did misinterpret. When lots of people seemed to assume automatically that the Italian reporter was telling the gospel truth and that the Americans tried to kill her because they don't like her views, I have been essentially defending the troops who fired on the approaching car. You would know this had you read my posts. When Doug leaped to the conclusion that everybody was condemning the troops, I pointed out to him that not everyone was. But I also pointed out to him that we don't know yet if they were as lily-pure as he assumes they are (as is his wont). I have said several times that in the light of conflicting stories and the fact that none of us knows definitively what actually happened, anything anyone says on this thread is pure speculation. In short, I have kept saying all along, don't jump to conclusions. And to you I say, don't jump to conclusions about my views about anything unless I say specifically what I think. If you try to label and pigeon-hole me, you will most assuredly be wrong. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Mar 05 - 07:06 PM "You are right, but at the same time, let's not exonerate anyone prematurely. " seems to imply that there is some guilt to be given. Pardon me if I misinterpreted. I may be oversensitive when it comes to the attitude here that the US is ALWAYS at fault, and can be blamed without any evidence, but all others are to be presumed innocent until absolute proof has been presented- even then, it remains the fault of the US, it seems. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Don Firth Date: 10 Mar 05 - 07:03 PM Beardedbruce, you obviously have not been reading what I have posted. Where the hell did you get that? Out of thin air? That's what I've been saying all along!! Fer Chrissake, read what I have written before you start popping off at me! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: robomatic Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:59 PM And I wondered how we were going to while away the time while we waited for the facts! Seriously, someone mentioned that it might be an issue that Ms. Sgrena worked for a Communist publication. I don't know where Communism has 'gone to ground' since the Big Kahuna fell at the end of the millenium. So, are there a lot of Communists left in Europe these days? Is there an issue over Ms. Sgrena representing such a publication? Is she a free-lancer? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:58 PM Raedwulf, I've been noting much good sense in your posts, so was surprised to see you saying: "she has a twice-over natural bent for distortion." Is this a reference to the susceptibility of post-trauma recollection as explained by Wolfgang, or are you hinting at something else? By the way, Wolfgang, just to go back to the point I took up with Robomatic, and which you queried.... I had taken Sgrena's claim that there was no warning to be, inter alia, a contradiction of the US claim that warning shots had been fired. I still think a back-seat passenger could have formed a view about that. If the first shots she heard were the ones that hit the car, then she is entitled to say she thinks no warning shots were fired. I take the point that she has subsequently turned out to be a bit inconsistent about whether there were any other warning signals. I'm pleased to see DougR seconding my suggestion that we give the inquiry a chance. I don't think it will be the cynical exercise that some are fatalistically expecting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:35 PM Don, So, innocent until proven guilty can only apply to those that you support, and those you oppose are guilty until proven innocent? UNTIL there is some proof, perhaps the US forces should be taken at their word, and the incident considered an accident. Investigation is required, regardless. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Don Firth Date: 10 Mar 05 - 12:41 PM You will note, Doug, that this is what several people here, including me, have been saying all along. So far it's all speculation based on conflicting stories. Everybody has an ax to grind. You are right, but at the same time, let's not exonerate anyone prematurely. Wait and watch. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:25 PM I wholly agree with Doug about it being wrong to rush to any kind of judgement, either way, in the absence of clearer information. The only clear thing is that this should not have happened - what eactly did happen, and why it happened, are still very much open questions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: DougR Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:41 PM What a rush to judgement! Why not wait until the investigations are completed BEFORE hanging the U. S. soldiers? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: robomatic Date: 09 Mar 05 - 05:26 PM There's nothing inconsistent if you re-arrange the words in her story to make them match with the soldier's reports. It all makes so much sense now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Mar 05 - 04:00 PM In any case there is nothing particularly inconsistent between reading the Koran and praying, and not being "strict Muslims". Just transfer those comments to Christians you know. There are plenty of people who might read the Gospels, and say prayers, especially in a time of crisis, are far from being regular church members, or "strict Christians". Muslims come in all sorts, the same way as Christians or Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Wolfgang Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:45 PM The kidnappers appeared to be very religious, continuously praying on the Koran. (Sgrena in Guardian atricle) The kidnappers were not strict Muslims (Sgrena in interview translated in German newspaper) Normal, very very normal. Eyewitnesses, in particular after having had fear for their lives (or having felt strong emotions for encountering something unexplainable to them), adapt their recollection of the event to the script they later consider the most likely to have happened to them. In particular, during the first days the story often changes. Some days later, in particular for people retelling the story quite often, the story settles for a more permanent version. Not because of herself Ms Sgrena cannot be trusted to report each detail correctly, anybody in her situation would be like her. BTW, for those liking to point out that she was working for a communist newspaper, she was also working for DIE ZEIT, the most respectable very middle of the road German weekly newspaper. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:40 PM Precisely - it's all very unclear, and even after the investigations have been caried out, it'll still be far from clear, these things always are. But what is clear, and what ought to be the central issue, is that a fair number of ordinary Iraqis have been killed in these kinds of incidents, and nobody seems to have been giving it the attention it deserves. Every now and again a story makes it into the press, and if it's bad enough there are promises about inquiries - and that's it. Kicked into touch, and the world moves on. And there are no indications that anything has been learned from the tragedy to stop it all happening next time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Wolfgang Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:18 PM Thanks, McGrath, for pointing to the contradictions in the Italian versions of the incident. Ms Sgrena first said in an interview that there was no warning signal, now in the Guardian article she skips over that point and writes I can only remember gunfire (quite in line with what robomatic assumed about the perceptual abilities of a backseat passenger, BTW) Berlusconi says the Italians stopped immediately when seeing a warning signal. BTW, Italian secretary of foreign affairs Gianfranco Fini yesterday: "Nobody has given a sign to stop." The Italians don't seem to agree yet about that detail. Murky, yes, but not more than usual in such situations. Contradictory accounts and even the same people giving slightly different accounts at different times is normal. Sgrena (last night in Italian TV): "I have never said that the Americans wanted to kill me". Wolfgang |
