BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 05:11 PM

I know that, Jack, but I also know that no one read the article. And no one read Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer", either.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:45 PM

"The use of terms like "militant", "atheist" and even "religion" is an attempt to put people in a box that's convenient for the opinion that the author wishes to express. "

I don't think that you need to be insulted by this. I think it was aimed at Chris Hitchens and those doing the same work.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:40 PM

"The thing that some of you don't seem to understand is that over the last 40 years or so, a lot of religious fundamentalists, the "True Believers" have crossed over to the other side. Unfortunately, many of them have brought their dogmatic mindsets and their obsession with doctrine with them. They just embrace a different doctrine."

This is one of the points explored in the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:36 PM

" merely questioning whether they are as prolific as the article suggests"

I don't think that the artist suggests that they prolific at all. I think that he points out that the do exist, that he is curious about them and that he saw some at a conference and he commented about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:20 PM

I'm just telling you how it is, Steve. What you think is, as always, your own business. As for myself, I will point out that it is as possible for people to be rigid, dogmatic and doctrinaire on any side of any issue.

And, actually, switching sides is not a radical conversion, because you're still playing the same game.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:08 PM

"the only people who really frighten him are not those who have no faith or belief but those whose belief is so steadfast that they have stopped searching"

Well put. Most of the religious people I know are continually searching and asking further questions. That's why I enjoy being around them, because they are continuing to search, and they are not resting on their laurels or clinging to rigid dogma. This is also true of the non-religious people I most enjoy being around...that their minds aren't all made up and aren't tied to any absolute dogma, but are continuing to look to further possibilities.

It's the ones who figure they've got it all neatly tied up and have no further questions to ask who worry me. So I agree with the bishop you mentioned, "leveller".

I've always been a freethinker. That's a person who thinks freely, for himself, realizes that he doesn't have all the answers, continues to search, continues to ask questions, is not constrained by official lines of dogma..........whether religious or otherwise. A freethinker may be religious, he may be secular, he can easily be either one or the other.

My point being, M, that freethinkers are found within the religions as well as outside them. Some of the most courageous and thoughtful freethinkers I've ever know are also religious.

The enemy of the freethinker is the dogmatist, and dogmatists are found both within and outside of religions. The thing they all share is the rigid presumption that their way is the ONLY right way...and that everyone else is wrong, perhaps even evil! You see these dogmatists in extreme political movements of all kinds, acting with or without any connection to religion. You also see them in extreme religious sects and proponents of extreme philosophies. There is in them a strong element of fear allied with an intent to dominate others. They are the enemies of both freethinking religion AND freethinking secular life.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: saulgoldie
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:01 PM

I heerd a few years back that the evangelist was knocking on doors, looking for converts. He knocked on the door of a Unitarian (probably didn't see the "question mark" hedge in the front yard). He asked her if she was a Christian. She said, "Oh, I'm at least that!"

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 02:36 PM

"when someone asks me my religious beliefs, I say that I'm a free-thinker"...
,.,.,..
I just say I haven't got any.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 02:19 PM

The use of terms like "militant", "atheist" and even "religion" is an attempt to put people in a box that's convenient for the opinion that the author wishes to express. It's a well-known totalitarian strategy: only when you can classify and categorise people can you criticise and, ultimately, control them. Don't get me wrong, many people like to be in a box – it gives them their sense of identity and belonging. For me, it's the ultimate insult. So, on the very rare occasions when someone asks me my religious beliefs, I say that I'm a free-thinker. Politically, I'm a utopian anarchist. This allows others to form their own opinions, which it's easy for me to refute, whilst, at the same time, it allows me to modify what I think in line with any new information I come across or when I have a 'lightbulb' moment.

And whilst on the subject of modifying your beliefs, one of the most pertinent things I ever heard from a religious person was whilst listening to Thought for the Day on Beeb 4 some years ago. A C of E bishop, whose humanity and intellect I respect (but whose name, unfortunately, for the moment escapes me) said something to the effect that the only people who really frighten him are not those who have no faith or belief but those whose belief is so steadfast that they have stopped searching.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 01:18 PM

The thing that some of you don't seem to understand is that over the last 40 years or so, a lot of religious fundamentalists, the "True Believers" have crossed over to the other side. Unfortunately, many of them have brought their dogmatic mindsets and their obsession with doctrine with them.

Well if this is true (and I seriously doubt that it's a widespread phenomenon, to be honest), I think your analysis here is facile. What are you calling a "dogmatic mindset" exactly? The term sounds suspiciously like a derogatory characterisation of people who like to speak their minds but who you've fallen out intellectually with. Why not call them people of conviction instead? Atheism, whether you like it or not, does not possess dogmatic equivalence with the authoritarian aspects of religious teaching. Actually, apart from our uninterest in God, there is no dogma at all (and even that isn't really dogmatic, as long as you're a real atheist - sorry, McGrath! - who acknowledges doubt). It isn't the right word. Really, calling atheists dogmatic is no more than irritated, aimless lashing out, is it? I'd even quarrel with "mindset". Anyone who has made the sea-change you refer to has smashed their mindset to smithereens. I can hardly think of a more radical conversion, and you can't achieve that by retaining a large part of your previous mental stiffness: you really do have to change everything in your thinking. Perhaps you think that a certain kind of person has mindset-rigidity built into their genes and the trait will manifest itself in whatever walk of life their next hobby-horse rears its head. And perhaps I'll disagree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 01:00 PM

I like to be left alone to intelligently discus my religious feelings with my friends on the Mudcat. But Evangelical atheists keep coming on threads and as Steve Shaw puts it "taunting me"

You post an article about a currently contentious matter in the already-contentious arena of discussion of religion - and you want to be left alone?? Jack, dear fellow, the content of the article you posted is highly controversial. It's about atheism and atheists and it is critical of a certain category of atheist (as defined by the author). Are you really telling me you expected the atheists that you know inhabit this forum to step aside while you and your fellow-believers have a cosy little natter about us, in public, in a thread, right in front of us?

Incidentally, I'd be obliged if you could point out to me the post where I put it that "evangelical atheists" were "taunting you". I don't recall making such a remark.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:57 PM

I can attest to the fact that he is absolutely right. The thing that some of you don't seem to understand is that over the last 40 years or so, a lot of religious fundamentalists, the "True Believers" have crossed over to the other side. Unfortunately, many of them have brought their dogmatic mindsets and their obsession with doctrine with them. They just embrace a different doctrine.

Back in the 60's, a friend of mine was fond of pointing out that just because somebody grew their hair long and smoked pot didn't mean that they'd stopped being a jerk. The rule still applies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: saulgoldie
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:45 PM

I don't care what religion or atheism anyone practices, as long as s/he does not force it on me by compelling me to perform certain acts or paying for it through my taxes. If Sikhs want to wear turbans, that is their business. If Muslim women choose to wear burkas, that is their business, and I am not hurt by it.

HOWEVER, if Christians want ten commandments--which ten, by the way?--placed on public ground, then it is an imposition on my freedom from religion. And I DO take offense at that. But militant? Like what, "preventing" them from believing in a diety? Or forcing them--how, by the way?--to say prayers or make pledges that are not their own? Or forcing them to ordain women?

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:26 PM

IMO, it seems reasonable that there are a variety of perspectives among those who indicate thay believe in a God. Similararily, I expect there is a wide spectrum of perspectives among people who indicate thay do not believe in a God. My observation is there a whole lot of folks in the middle in both camps, who remain uncertain.

I suspect that more vocal folks in most movements are in the minority, not the majority. Rather than merely being comfortable with their own perspective, the actions of some seems to lean towards demonstrating some form of "surperior reasoning"? It seems to me that the focu is often to convert others to "see the light" of their viewpoint, rather than learning something from the perspectives of others?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 11:58 AM

Perhaps it's just that these atheists are getting more organized, but I come across them all the time in Ireland - particularly in left-wing and academic circles. Some of them can be very insulting to religious people. About this time ,last year there was a "crucifixion party" organized as an alternative to Good Friday in Dublin by people claiming to be atheists . The crudest stuff imaginable and all done in the name of freedom of speech . A lot of these new atheists started to make their presence felt in support of the Danish anti-Muslim cartoons a few years ago, then started turning their attention to Christians .

I do agree that we're not witnessing the birth of a a new religion as such , but people could be forgiven if they see eratz religion : the proselytizing ,all the talk about secular ethics , the organizing of atheist Sunday services etc.......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:29 AM

An interesting perspective on Buddhism, which some see as a religion, but may be more of a philosophy of life. I link it because, I observe that some Athiests are "coming together" and making initiatives to develop a form of life philosophy.

Buddhism-Religion or Philosophy of life?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 10:14 AM

I'm not saying they don't exist - merely questioning whether they are as prolific as the article suggests. They don't seem to be a major force in the UK despite the fact that a majority of people do not now consider themselves to be religious and only 9% of the population regularly attends a church. That there are "a load" of "militant" atheists out there who are creating a new religion is totally fatuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:23 AM

There are a load of these new proselytizing atheists out there, Leveller - they certainly DO exist.Very serious people intent on disproving the existence of Bertrand Russell's teapot.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 05:50 AM

Sailor Jack wants to be left alone to discuss religion with his mates.

Fair play.

But publicly posting on the BS section of Mudcat precludes blinkered debate as the grown ups may want to join in.

As is their right.

I have a fascination with religion. I remain fascinated how intelligent people can see it as relevant.   I have every right to explore my fascination and others have the right to tell me to bugger off.

Snag is, I remsin curious because if your God is omnipotent rather than impotent, he / she should be able to brush off the carping and ridicule of immature idiots like me.

Do why be so touchy? Why keep looking for protection and finding ways of dreaming that lack of superstition is some sinister plot?

You started the bloody thread. Don't complain about where it is heading. .

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 04:24 AM

"theleveller

Your post is very cryptic."

Simply pointing out that, if you look for them, you can find all kinds of strange beliefs expressed on the internet and on t-shirts. That doesn't mean they are are prevalent. Most of my friends are non-believers; I read widely about religious subjects - but militant athiesim, as expressed in this article, is not something I've encountered. So I'm saying that this article is, in my opinion, based on a small minority of people. He may just as well have chosen flat-earthers to write about, or those who consider Startreck is a religion. But then, it is based on what happens in the USA. In Britain we don't take religion anything like as seriously. Seems to me he's just a journalist scratching around for a contentious subject to write about to make a fast buck.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 01:47 AM

"For the most part, they just want to be left alone."

I like to be left alone to intelligently discus my religious feelings with my friends on the Mudcat. But Evangelical atheists keep coming on threads and as Steve Shaw puts it "taunting me" so when I saw the article I thought maybe this guy has seen what I have seen.

But no. His experience is different from mine in many ways. But the article had several interesting ideas, and the guy is a primatologist and I am a big fan of bonobos and monkeys. So I posted it anyway.

Some people were interested. Some people took it personally. Some people expressed tangential opinions. That is in my opinion how we got to this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 01:04 AM

Here's a very pious-sounding wish from the Pope Francis thread:

I can only hope---no I don't have the temerity to call it pray---for humans to continue to evolve psychologically past the social virus called religion.
Atheism, freedom and truth await.

Yes, I'll freely admit that there is much harm done in the name of religion, especially in the name of my Catholic denomination. Still, I know a huge number of intelligent, fair-minded, loving people for whom religion is a very important part of their life. They are quite possibly just as intelligent and insightful as our poster. But for them, religion has meaning and value. However, they have a different perspective than has our poster, and our poster finds that unacceptable.

If you look around at the religious people at Mudcat, very few of them have any desire to proselytize, or to "lord" it over anyone. For the most part, they just want to be left alone.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:21 AM

I don't think that the editors at Salon who created that title meant to be precisely literal. As I said before, it seems that they were being provocative.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:12 AM

I guess we cross posted there. Your speculation about my "faith" is at least as far off as mine about Hawking.

I promise not to mock it with broad condescending stereotypes :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TIA
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:11 AM

Atheism cannot possibly become a religion if you understand both of those two words.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:08 AM

BTW the author of the link I posted makes some arguments against Hawking's statement as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:07 AM

Jack, your belief in what you think Hawking said is uplifting to uphold. Please don't be led astray by what is there on the printed page in his last book. Faith is a wonderful thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:05 AM

Peter K. I owe you an apology. Apparently Dr. Hawking did make the argument much as you described it Here it is.. I also commend you for not going that far.

It is a profoundly stupid argument. It can be easily counted with "Where did the singularity and all of the physical laws unfurled by the Big Bang come from?"

His very definition of time is as a measurement of time is basically the measurement of change in this Universe. It has no meaning before the Big Bang. But obviously the singularity existed to Bang before the Universe we know existed and something made it go Bang. And by his own definition of singularity he has no possible source of information about what caused the bang or how long it took to cause it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:43 PM

"An "atheist" who professes absolute certainty is not a proper atheist, just a twit"

To that "twit" definition I would a and atheist who bullies and taunts people about things he claim not to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:39 PM

I find it much much less likely that you quoted him accurately. Because, if he did that he contradicted his own definition. Do you have any idea how many times some jackass misquotes a celebrity on the internet or even more common how many times a celebrity's name is falsely put on a quote?

Whoops, the problem I have with faith is with you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity

"According to general relativity, the initial state of the universe, at the beginning of the Big Bang, was a singularity."

I have read Dr. Hawking say that we cannot know what is in a singularity because NO INFORMATION other than gravitation force escapes from a singularity. For the Big Bang singularity there was not even an external universe from which to measure it. You are saying that somehow, now by claiming that he has somehow measured or deduced the lack of the passage of time from measurements within this singularity and positively reported that there was none and that therefor there is no God.

I heard no report that he has a brain tumor and therefor I don't believe you. Sorry. Do you have the book? can you give me an exact quote so that I can look it up?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 10:37 PM

Me: "I do not go as far as Stephen Hawking, who has argued that no god could have brought about the big bang because before the big bang, time did not exist and therefore there was no time for any god to do his work."

Jack: If find this highly unlikely.

Whoops - that must be blind faith, Jack, as the evidence that Hawking has put forward exactly that argument is there for all to read in The Grand Design, which he co-authored and you have obviously not read.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:52 PM

though Steve Shaw, for instance, is one of a kind, there are many who use that name, so Googling doesn't help much).

Just add the name of the instrument I play to "Steve Shaw"! If nothing else it'll persuade you that I'm a real geezer. You do have to wonder about some of the people round here... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:38 PM

I would class your position as being agnostic, Peter K. And that I would not describe as a faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:34 PM

The difference between agnostics and atheists is that the latter do have "a faith", by which I mean a settled belief about how the world works. If it's only provisional, a matter of "probably", or even "almost certainly", they are agnostics.

An "atheist" who professes absolute certainty is not a proper atheist, just a twit. So, going from that and from what you say, there are not really any atheists at all. Certainly, Dawkins doesn't fit the bill, and neither do I. But I'm not bothered. In any case, "atheist" is an unfortunate word with negative undertones and I'll shed it without regret if you insist. But that leads to your next problem in that what you're left with, "agnostics", is woefully inadequate in expressing the spectrum of convictions from the debating almost-certain thinking near-atheist right down to the don't-give-a-shit-about-none-of-that-stuff bloke down the pub, with plenty of in-betweens. My view is that "agnostic" bears too much connotation of unsure fence-sitting blending to apathy. There a brand of lily-livered-ism, too, that passes for "agnostic", the insurance policy brigade. Just a thought. I can't really be arsed to argue the point, to be honest.   

While in many parts of the world atheists may reasonably see themselves as battling against "a massive tide", that is hardly the case in England, at least in metropolitan England if anything it's the other way round, it. Is believers who are in that situation.

It depends on whether you open your mouth. In our local paper yer in Cornwall where church and chapel hold sway, a brave chap frequently gets an atheistic polemic printed in the letters pages (lovely chap though he has too little regard for outcome, unfortunately). He gets plenty of flak and not a lot of support. I know we don't get shot at much or locked away for heresy these days. I'm not especially aware of believers having to fight back the tide. Not round here anyway. One thing you do NOT bring up down the pub is religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:16 PM

QWhich country? ANY country.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:13 PM

When asked, "Where is that smell coming from?" my biochemist roommate launched into a lesson about putriscine, cadaverine and the decarboxylation of lysine. He did not, however, explain why he'd put a raw chicken in a pan and left it in the cabinet next to the stove for a month.
This, to me, has always been the problem with science.

Hmm. Perhaps, in a kind way, he was gently persuading you to up your game a bit and learn enough science for you to avoid being taken in. It behoves us all, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:11 PM

"Me neither. I just don't think his experience is typical of the whole country. "

Which country? In the article he talks about an Englishman (Hitchens) at a conference in Mexico.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:08 PM

We, Mr. Hawking included, I would hope, who accept the definition of a singularity make no presumptions about what can occur within a singularity because by definition, we cannot know.

That's fine, as long as you will also agree not to think up the most unlikely fantasy-ridden stuff that breaks all the laws of nature and then tell us that we can't know it wasn't in that singularity. Chocolate teapots going round Mars and all that, you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:57 PM

It is quite remarkable, having just got in after a long day, to see how the perpetrator of this thread has handled himself. First, he posts a link to a very long article from which he quotes about two lines and adds no comment of his own (why the hell did he post it at all, I wondered, apart from to say that here's a bloody great big long article which I agree with and I think I'll let it do all my work...) Then, of course, and risibly, when I responded he accused me of not reading it (odd, that, as it had occurred to me from his opening post that he'd only managed a quick bit of cherrypicking himself, but, as I didn't know that for sure, I thought better about saying it). During the day he's done what he should have done at the outset (stung into getting off his arse?) and revisited bits of the thing in order to comment on it.

Now I said that the article was of little interest and was a pain to wade through. Yer ex-Catholic, atheistic author simply expounds the tired old reactions to the alleged new atheism that has been trotted out so many times before. We neo-atheists (has he paused, by the way, to consider the inflammatory insult-potential of that stupid expression? Thought not!) are vehemently opposed to religion and resent its privileges in society. These atheists don't think that disbelief should be kept locked up in the closet. They speak of "coming out," a terminology borrowed from the gay movement, as if their nonreligiousness was a forbidden secret that they now want to share with the world. Well I never! He and Jack ought to get together, get out more and find us some of these miserable people. It is a lamentably poor characterisation, not even a caricature. In fact, they don't exist (and I know a lot of atheists who make so bold as to not keep conveniently silent about it). The writer's thesis that activist atheism reflects trauma. The stricter one's religious background, the greater the need to go against it and to replace old securities with new ones…… is just about the most stale part of a very stale article. The good old "bitter ex-Catholic" notion will always fill the gap nicely for a lazy non-thinker such as yer man, and why not take it a demonising step further and imagine that we're traumatised into the bargain. Nutty or what. We have inner demons to be kept at bay... in the same way that firefighters are sometimes stealth arsonists and homophobes closet homosexuals, [why] do some atheists secretly long for the certitude of religion? Not only do we harbour demons (so who needs demonising!), we lust after certitude. I told you, Jack, up the thread that neither Dawkins nor Shaw demands or requires certitude. Certitude is the enemy of atheism, stripping it of all its rationality. The article is full of absurdities but that one is the most wrong-headed of the lot. In this conversation all the certitude lies in the laps of believers (with honourable exceptions such as Joe). Your prayers, your hymns, your edicts, your traditions, what you tell your kids, and our towns and cities full of religious symbolism everywhere, are replete with certitude. Yet the most militant "neo-atheist" in the world says only that there is probably no God. Next, we are "poor listeners", then he goes on to ridicule a big university debate he went to. Well I'll tell you what. YouTube is full of Richard Dawkins debating religion and atheism in their various facets with all manner of eminent opponents, and I challenge you to find a more careful listener than he.

Jack, your article is more of the same old poppycock that says nice atheists are quiet and well-mannered (we can put up with them, they're OK) while the other sort are just petulant, demon-ridden, noisy morons. In a world in which religion is the default mode even in allegedly "secular" countries (which all have their mosques, synagogues and churches, decorated with God-glorifying symbolism shouting its questionable message to the world, not just to the flock, and "faith" schools to which parents may choose to send their unfortunate offspring in order to be indoctrinated just like they once were), you should be welcoming those few voices (and it ain't that many of us, let's face it!) that might just get a few more people not joining us (we ain't like that) but at least beginning to ask some of the right questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 08:20 PM

> I have no doubt he has witnessed these things.

Me neither. I just don't think his experience is typical of the whole country.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:34 PM

"De Waal must live in a unique area. "

According to the article, suburban Atlanta. I have no doubt he has witnessed these things.

"Why are the "neo-atheists" of today so obsessed with God's nonexistence that they go on media rampages, wear T-shirts proclaiming their absence of belief, or call for a militant atheism?"

three quick Googles convinced me that they exist to some degree.

It is just one point in a much longer book.

I love the book title The Bonobo and the Atheist

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:11 PM

In college I had a friend who was a "vocal" atheist... who then became a "Jesus Freak", including the smiley button. I figured he had become an atheist to spite god and then repented. Whatever..

I spent 8 years in Catholic elementary school and finally gave up trying to be devout, or even Catholic. The hypocricy was more than I could stand... including my lip service to the dogma. The fact was and is that I just do not believe in any form of theology... that requires some faith, which I just do not have.

As long as someone doesn't try to shove their beliefs onto me, it's let's agree to disagree... don't put your religious dogma into laws that affect me... don't bomb folks who believe differently than you...

My feeling is that waging war over religion is as stupid/insane/pointless as fighting over belief in the tooth fairy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:55 PM

> "Why are the "neo-atheists" of today so obsessed with God's nonexistence that they go on media rampages, wear T-shirts proclaiming their absence of belief, or call for a militant atheism?"

De Waal must live in a unique area. For every outspoken atheist I've seen on American TV (few if any of whom I'd describe as "militant" and none wearing atheist T-shirts), I've seen a score of clergymen and lay fudamentalists, some of them raving about a so-called "War on Christmas" (which allegedly has been going on for at least a decade with no obvious success) and now a follow-up "War on Easter."

They seem to believe that Christians are, really, a persecuted minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:30 PM

theleveller

Your post is very cryptic.

Please consider that I was quoting Mr der Waals argument about the source of the dogma. I think he made a reasonable point. I remember repeating that dogma myself and being very surprised to find that ancient Greeks had thought that the world was a sphere and had calculated the diameter.

I hope I addressed the correct point in this reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM

"I do not go as far as Stephen Hawking, who has argued that no god could have brought about the big bang because before the big bang, time did not exist and therefore there was no time for any god to do his work. "

If find this highly unlikely. It would indicate that Mr. Hawking does not know what a singularity is and that would be a surprise to me because I learned what a singularity is from Mr. Hawking's writings.

We, Mr. Hawking included, I would hope, who accept the definition of a singularity make no presumptions about what can occur within a singularity because by definition, we cannot know.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM

Jack, existence does not equal prevalence.

For instance:

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/


http://www.zazzle.co.uk/flat_earth_society_shirts-235093236610040717

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:14 PM

Compelling arguments from Steve Shaw here. Obviously he has the not insignificant advantage that logic is on his side but, even so, his comments are extremely well expressed; not least his quarrel with Little Hawk's misappropriation of vocabulary.

Several times I felt moved to chip in with thoughts of my own, only to find that Steve has already expressed them. So it remains only for me to take issue with McGrath, whose characterisation of me as a person of faith is offensive. (The fact that I believe in no god makes me - if words mean anything - an atheist. Atheism, according to McG, is a faith.)

Wrong, McGrath. I interpret the evidence before us all as establishing that our universe evolved from a big bang. Many religious people accept the same. But that's sod-all to do with faith. If I am asked what came before the big bang or what caused it, I can say only that no supernatural force was necessary but that a supernatural force could nevertheless have been involved.

I do not go as far as Stephen Hawking, who has argued that no god could have brought about the big bang because before the big bang, time did not exist and therefore there was no time for any god to do his work. I don't go that far if only because I know the answer: God can do anything.

On what basis does McG presume to say that my thoughts about all this, or Hawking's for that matter, are a faith?

Incidentally I did read the linked article and considered it thoughtless. It doesn't need rocket science to understand why some atheists fight their corner more forcefully than the article's author apparently does.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM

Excellent! Stim!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:49 PM

When asked, "Where is that smell coming from?" my biochemist roommate launched into a lesson about putriscine, cadaverine and the decarboxylation of lysine. He did not, however, explain why he'd put a raw chicken in a pan and left it in the cabinet next to the stove for a month.

This, to me, has always been the problem with science.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:46 PM

TheLeveler,

The last part of the article revolves around a conference in Mexico where the author witnessed such things.

I think it is fair to say that things have happened which you have not witnessed. You lack of experience with them does not mean these things do not exist.

I am going to Google it.

Search 1 "Neoatheists

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism

"The term is commonly associated with individuals such as Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens (together called "the Four Horsemen of New Atheism" in a taped 2007 discussion they held on their criticisms of religion, a name that has stuck),[2] along with Victor J. Stenger,[3] Lawrence M. Krauss and A.C. Grayling.[4] Several best-selling books by these authors, published between 2004 and 2007, form the basis for much of the discussion of New Atheism.[5]"

I have seen the "media rampages" myself on Youtube. Haven't you?

Search 2: "Atheist tee shirts."

There are plenty of them for sale. I can only speculate about who is wearing them but I suspect that many are being worn by atheists trying to push their point of view.

Search 3: "Call for militant atheism"

This video appears to be Richard Dawkins calling for militant atheism. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxGMqKCcN6A

I am satisfied that the author has made a point worth considering. If you read his arguments and consider them in context.