Discount CDs at gigs

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Hamish
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:11 AM

I feel insulted if the act charges too much. I've been to gigs where they've asked £13 or £14 which, in addition to maybe £10 or £12 entrance is taking the p1$$. £10 is the going rate, and I feel like I'm getting a good deal, if it's a well produced CD.

I have huge sympathy for Tom's point about down time. The way I look at it is that many musicians take a full day's effort to do a gig, what with travelling time. Certainly enough time that doing a day job on gig days (and often the next day, too) as well is unthinkable.

--
Hamish

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:06 AM

Matt - in that calculation you're not taking into account the costs of the recording studio (and possibly accommodation), the production team, any guest/session musicians (MU rate is a minimum of £114), mastering, graphic design - or even the cost of the ink. Some of us can do much of this ourselves of course, (but very few can do all of it, well) and even if we can, our recording and graphics kit has to be paid for. And if it's our job, then our own time should really be costed in as well.

Are your CDs actually CDRs? These sound much the same, but are not acceptable to some shops and radio stations because they don't play reliably in all machines. Fine for demos, as you say, but no good for serious 'product.' You may get CDs for that but I doubt it - glass mastering usually costs that much, and then you have the blanks and replication to pay for. There's also a problem with card and paper sleeves because they can get damaged before sale (damp CD tables caused by beer spills are the main enemy).

Even a fairly simple CD by a solo artist with no multi-tracking could cost up to a grand to record and master properly. My out-costs are more like £2-3k, and if I costed in my own time (I do my own graphics) it would be double that. Even at a tenner a pop it takes a good while to break even.

Tom

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: matt milton
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:51 AM

To those without record deals, who press up their own CDs:

1.        The most expensive part of CD duplication is the packaging. If you get your CDs duplicated at a pressing plant, you will save a significant amount of money if you just order CDs on a spindle: ie the CDs alone, without any wallets or jewel cases. Buy your own wallets or jewel cases (or whatever) separately, and, if you have time, print them yourself at home with your printer. I'm about to get 1000 CDs duplicated and it will cost me £350. I'm going to use paper sleeves (which cost 3p each). Jewel cases aren't bio-degradable anyway; not very green. I'm printing onto them at work, using the work printer. This means I can sell CDs at anything from 50p upwards and make a profit. A CD for £5 is a 500% profit.
2.        If you're registered self-employed, then the costs of CD production are a tax-deductible expense. Any CDs that you give away are promotional; also a tax-deductible expense.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:41 AM

An interesting point

When someone enquires, why not ask them why they should want one of yours?

If I did not want one in return I'ld say

'Thanks, but , no thanks, my wife wont let me swap, she makes me pay her for every one, nor will my 3 kids, who incidently havent eaten today'

or' Nah, dont like your gear'

or
'Aint got room, thats why I'm having to sell these'

I never say I have CDs, I always wait until someone asks, and they usually do, then again sometimes not.

I regard selling a CD as a bonus, not an expectation, certainly not a right.

Its an opportunity but as I have gotten my fee I have already been rewarded.

I always make sure the club does not make a loss wherever I gig as I wish to leave it in as good or better financial situation than when I arrived, then I hope to return sometime, unless I am forced to take more than I deserve which can make me feel guilty,for a short while, but accept it graciously, I think.

For me its all about cooperation and sharing

Boy this beer is good stuff

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Acorn4
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:14 AM

This is slightly off thread but connected to the topic .

What do you do when someone suggests swapping CDs?

I don't sell my CDs in great quantities, but occasionally get requests to swap by other performers. Sometimes it's a bit embarrassing because, although the CD suggested may be a good one, sometimes it might be not quite my "cup of tea".

My normal reaction is to say OK, but if I suggest swapping myself, it's normally because the person concerned has expressed some kind of interest in my songs, and has perhaps shown an interest in buying a CD and I like what they are doing so suggest the swap. It's not normally a big problem and can often be worth it to maintain folk cameraderie.

I was, however, once caught out when I agreed to a request to swap without any great enthusiasm, to be greeted by:-

"Mine's twenty pounds because it's a double"

Must have seen me coming!

I'm fortunate because I don't have to sell CDs as part of making a living, but I was wondering how people who do deal with this situation tactfully.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:53 AM

Sorry Tabster, didnt mean to miss you out

Good idea, re-invest without taking a cut, thats the way,

to starve according to some!

I guess you are from over there, yes?

I am in the wood !

sorry to be cryptic, just felt like it.

do check out Tom Bliss

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:48 AM

Part Three

bloody phone went , sorry for that and what did I hear when I picked it up

'And when did you last review your gas and electricity tarifs..'

It was an aaaaautomated messge.!! I'm being spoken to by a machine, and it doesnt do washing up, so I puts phone down

now where was I?

ah yes , back to the plot



Seamus, a good old welsh name to be sure

Guess you be from over there, barrack-land, all hecklers welcome

Boom Boom

worth 2 in the bush

dont know if venues/clubs/fests here charge a commission on artiste's Cd sales , but I did think about it for my club at one time, but dropped the idea. I did have some concerns as Villan mentioned.

I remained 'open minded' but objected to floor singers and resident plugging their CDs when we had a main guest and felt the same if a floor singer did that to me when I was a was a headliner, 'hey , this is my gig, get out'

Get rid of the packaging so reduce costs and pollution, its the songs we want !



Thanks one and all

Have a nice day

yuck

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:34 AM

part two

Barry Finn

well said sir, hope they are listening and inwardly digesting

No go nads
no cheap , just affordable for a bus pass holder

Steve
dun you, bugger off

Capt Birdeye

Hello Dick and welcome, well seeing as you appear on all the best threads I waswondering what took you so long.

Thanks again for your input coming as it does from a 'pro perspective'
I reckon youve checked the £ rate by now, you've been done, again, have you not? to be sure.

So you did that gig for Cicily!, was it an offer you could not refuse !! '

greg

go solo

backwoodsman, you beat me to it thanks, now capn may believe us, to be sure

Lizzie, you can clain your prize when you see me in Padstow on may day


jed

thanks for your input and insight, do you really give away 500 to radio stations etc?

I agree wholeheatedly with 'a good show and something to remembera moment one wants to cherish' well sayd

your crystal gazing leaves me bewildered but not yet I hope

Chuck em, raffle prizes, freebies, pigeon frighteners for allotment holders and gardeners.
chuck em
Windscreen deflectors!!

and I dont believe you only sold one CD!! [joke]
No they steal the veg !!{joke]

Big Mick

[avoid the obviou

jump down off the stage, break down the barracades, cross the divide

Splat oringe

its the pollen count

must be a singers club which is where Anahata plays, so thats why he's grumpy

Dear Dick

you need to get out and about more, good luck

WYSIWYT

I so agree, its the song , not the ego driving it.

padstow may day susan



Vill

nearly vin garbut night at Faldingworth, I've got another 40 people coming , Vin said they could, he's entitled to 40 free admissions, and the local T V crew are coming

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:11 AM

Morning all. what a fantastic response. I have read everyones post and made notes, so by the time this gets sent up the mad may have gone off line.

starting with the earliest,


Steve, I dont have an hourly rate just a pension now so its out of my hands, the last job was a 'job rate' and you had to moove from one to the other at your own expense, 2 years, 70 hour week, for maybe £300, in the nend I was sacked for 'attitude' when I wasnt allowed to use the bog at one client's place and I threatened to use his front door!!. In college, as an agency lecturer for 12 years , the hourly rate was set and you had no choice, take it or nothing.

Tom. I really appreciate the insight to how you work , thanks for being so open, so keep on touring until you empty those boxes please, maybe they will be reduced if you have so many, Some great songs there.

Annie Hat less

One of the country's greatest exponents on m'deon, concertina ,cello and Mary H. -dont forget the banjo- a trad Welsh instrument carved from the oars of a coracle, the banjo that is.
Dont mention the 'grand slam' thats when Mary ........
This guy and his Welsh woman are the best
You sure do play some very low paying clubs ! But thank you.
Yes some of them do cahrge only £3 but possibly they are 'singers' clubs, then again us organisers do/did want our clubs to be economically viable and put on great shows
Thanks and all the best
Blwyddyn newydd dda xxxx

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Anne Lister
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:50 AM

I, too, have moved to card wallet packaging for my most recent albums and it's a great way to cut the weight out of dealing with CDs.

A point no one else has made (so perhaps it's just me) is that my CD sales money normally goes into the fund for making a new album. In the past (before my "angels" project) it was to repay the loan on the previous one. These days it's money for the next one. So if I discounted the albums at a gig it would make it all the more difficult to make future recordings.

And yes, I have been charged a percentage at a festival and a concert to sell my stuff. Not good.

Anne

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:29 AM

Jed, I've found that even if the jewel-case isn't cracked, sometimes the little hinge lugs are broken off, rendering the case useless.

My CD wallets are the same length and width as a jewel-case, they even have a spine with the title printed on it for shelf-stacking at radio stations (or at home).

And when I travel to a festival across the country, I ship boxes of my CDs ahead of time via USPS or UPS to the gig.

Invariably a lot of the jewel-cases are damaged, but not the wallets.

I've got about 7 of my 12 CD titles in the wallet format; it means re-formatting the artwork, but that's why I have a graphic-designer son!

Have you ever been charged a percentage at a festival or concert for the 'right' to sell your stuff?

Seamus

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: JedMarum
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:36 AM

The standard jewel case is what I still use for radio distribution. Their libraries are typically sized for standard plastic jewel cases and I want to be sure mine get a chance to stay in there! I do like some of the other packaging and would certainly drop that case if I didn't aim a significant portion of each manufacture run at radio.

I am miffed by the obvious "shelf damage" CDs can take, after being lugged around from festival to festival. I also, mark a cracked case down, even though the CD and the contents are good. I've not had actually broken cases.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 11:45 PM

Jed, Mick, Susan, DebC -

Great points. I also practice the discount for multiple purchases, with $15 being the cost for one here in the U.S.

Tom Bliss's explanation of expenses is also pretty accurate.

I play at festivals and concert venues that take up to 20% for allowing us (the performers) the privilege of selling our CDs.
Their rationale is that they are providing a retail platform for us to sell, therefore they are entitled to charge us for said privilege.

At some venues, sales are wonderful, so I don't mind paying the 20%;
at others sales are horrible, so I resent paying the 20%, but I still have to pay it if I want to sell at all.

I've begun dropping the jewel-case format, and moved to paper/cardboard wallet format with my CDs. They are lighter, narrower (therefore you can fit more to a case), cheaper to mail, and they don't crack or break.
Something that bothers me is a person refusing to buy a CD because there's a crack in the jewel-case - even though the CD itself is unscathed. In those cases, I'll knock a couple of bucks off the price.

Ultimately, I'd love to have some format at a show whereby I can sell downloads of individual songs to purchasers ( folks at my shows usually buy a CD because of one particular song they've heard) in the same time that it takes to sell a CD.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:35 PM

Good info ~Susan - thanks!

Agreed The Villan, if you're asking top price, you should be selling the full, professional package.

As far as I know, discs are still required for radio distribution, in the folk/celtic world. For me that's about 500 copies. I don't CDs are going to disappear soon - but their growth is stunted!

And it is true as Dick says, for the most part their financial justification is for the performer, selling from the stage. That accounts for may 70% of my sales - still.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM

I think that an artist should charge what they are comfortable with. However at £10/12 a shot, it should mastered properly shrink wrapped and professionally done. I think it is not acceptable to sell CD's at that price if they are not up to the standard that you would expect if you go into a CD shop.

One of the very best examples of a beautifully produced CD was Steve Tilston's latest CD Ziggurat. So well done Steve for thinking of your customers. If you don't know what I mean, buy it and you will find out.

What I'm mindful of at my venue, is that there should never be any pressure to buy a CD. Not everybody has a load of money and they need to walk out of the venue having enjoyed the evening without feeling guilty becuase they didn't buy a CD.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

Hi Debra

I may try the discount thing that you and Anahata suggest. I have boxes of CDs all over the house that I want to get rid of before I stop touring in July, cos as Dick says, I won't sell many (any?) after that.

I've got the two most recent cds with CDBaby (and through them to iTunes) and may release more tracks through them in future. I agree with Jed that CDs are on the way out - though I'll go on making them if I go back to touring, because..

people want to buy
before the tears are dry

Tom

Tom Bliss on CDBaby

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: DebC
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 01:11 PM

Hi Tom,

I know a number of performers that use the "heg-veg" method (never heard it called that before. My buddy Andrew McKnight, calls it the "Honour Envelope", though he spells honor the Merkin way :-)

I give discounts for multiple CDs and that seems to sell a number of 'em. $50 for 4, $40 for 3.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 01:09 PM

no, I dont agree,
admission fee does not necessarily have a bearing on payment.I recently did a couple of gigs in Sicily with Richard Grainger.
at one of these gigs there were 300 people present,they were an attentive appreciative audience,and there was no charge,however I got a good fee,plus my travelling expenses.
I dont care what the admission fee is,providing I get a good audience and get my fee,in fact I would rather play to 300 people[if its free] than 30 people paying a tenner.
if an organiser can get subsidies[all well and good] and pass it on ,it means the less well heeled can appreciate and afford entrance.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 01:08 PM

For you giggers and CD-sellers, here's a word from a buyer. Others' mileage may vary, but....


1. A big reason to buy (and a big reason people have bought them from me at functions where I've helped run an artist's CD sales table during the crush) is because "X could not come tonight and she would SO love to have heard THIS song and THAT song, which CD is it on?" And/or "Which CD has X type of music I know my friend likes?"

2. I cannot tell you how many times I have looked on a CD insert to try to find the artist's website and/or CD purchase site for their earlier (or later) work.

3. If I have not already fallen in love with at least one CD, I am not at all likely to want to download an artist's MP3s, but when and if I do I will be song-driven more than artist-driven by that time-- I'll want to hear song samples to choose among their work to get the songs I will love. (I will trust their taste in material.)

4. These reasons are one big reason why CDBaby works for me, and, to a lesser extent, Amazon. I can hear the work and not have to wade thru Facebook invitations or an artist's self-promo stuff. If I have already heard that artist and fallen in love with the songs, the promo stuff becomes part of the "mere artists' patter." CDBaby is the simplest place to hear the tunes (tech process for user), and usually has the longer clips.

5. The CDs I have loved the most have been the ones someone else gave me who knew my taste in songs (and life), and so I think highlighting them at gigs, as potential gifts, is a great way to build an audience base and CD sales. Church research on tape ministries also shows the power of having a tangible item to give, if one wants to introduce a listener to something good. The tangible creates the urge to gift.

6. Digital media is now a great approach for me as a user, but as a gifter, I want jewel-cased portability because not all my recipients may have digital tools. That means that when I buy now for myself, the CD is usually gifted on to someone else eventually, who lacks digital capability (and who then often wants to know how to get more of the same and looks for a snail-mail artist/distributor address on the CD insert).

7. Once I download digital from a known and loved performer, that soon becomes my preferred buying habit for that artist. Although the whole chain of my buying has started with a CD-- if I get more of them, they very quickly go to someone else who doesn't know that artist's work at all, who I think will like the music (and hopefully buy more later on their own).


~Susan

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: treewind
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 12:55 PM

"indicative of a society where nothing has much value anymore and people have come to expect everything on the cheap"

Well said, SC
A.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 11:50 AM

From a practical viewpoint, the only CDs a performer is apt to sell (or at least 90% of them) are at gigs. And the only economic reason for the CDs in the first place is to supplement performance fees.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 11:04 AM

No particular disrespect intended to Sneezy, but I think the OP is indicative of a society where nothing has much value anymore and people have come to expect everything on the cheap. My belief is that if you want something, you pay the going rate. If it means you have to go without something else, you make the choice about what matters more to you. Musicians aren't charities and neither should they be. That's one reason I'm always shocked when I go to see a decent act at a folk club and its only three quid or something to get in. Fees must be bloomin' low...

I'm sure I valued my music more when I was a teenager and only had enough money to chose one LP when I went music shopping, as opposed to now, when generally, if I want a CD or a download, I can afford to just get it (at the cost of driving a beaten up car, mind you...). back then, I sweated those decisions about what album to get and I was gutted when I got it wrong.

Meanwhile, Jed hit the nail on the head about the glut of CDs in people's lives. My shelves are shocking and they pale compared with some folks I know. It's overkill out there...

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:38 AM

I'm usually at the mercy of people's honesty! Standing about hopefully near the CD table is not high on my priorities either, so I work the 'hedge veg'* system. People eventually find me with their money, specially if they want a signature. I've only had one CD not paid for in all these years.

Tom

*Do you have that in the States? It's common in the Channel Islands - just leaving surplus courgettes and spuds in a trug on the hedge for a donation. No-one even steals the coins!

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:32 AM

Yes Mick - there is no getting around it, the environment for CD sales makes all the difference. I have played some events where the stage is as you have described and I know there is no chance of sales happening, in any reasonable number.

I do try to set up the sales area to my benefit, when I can.

Festivals normally provide good space and often help (for which they take a piece of the sales). Concerts almost always do the same and sometime do NOT take a percentage. Pubs, you're on your own! As a solo performer, mostly - I have to place a low priority of my time to CD sales - I am somewhat at the mercy of the environment.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:26 AM

Other then price and economy, there are two reasons for the industry-wide drop in sales.

First of all, people are saturated! We have too many CDs in our homes already! Where do we put them? How do we manage them? There are only so many CDs we manage well anyway, keep near the CD player or in the car. What do we do with jewel cases when there 10 or 15 of them in the car? Or 150 of them in the living room?? And what about those 20 or 30 CDs that turned out to be crap, or the ones I just don;t want to listen to anymore?

CDs are a pain-in-the-ass. I really want to be sure I'm going to listen to it, if I'm going to buy it.

And Secondly we are rapidly moving to alternate media for music. I am certain a majority of people reading this thread have some music on their PCs and at least half of them have it on their iPods and similar devices. Yes, CDs can be the initial delivery mechanism to those alternate media devices (ie, buy the CD then rip, store and download MP3s to your computers, iPods and other devices). So people don't have to just buy CDs anymore.

I've started putting out business cards with my CDs and telling people to go and find my albums on iTunes. I'd rather they bought the CDs from me, of course - but especially the younger ones, they would prefer to right to their iPod.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM

I believe you are dead on it, Jed. The venue also has a lot to do with it, which ties into both of your points. I have found that when we are playing a venue that is not conducive to the performer being able to capture the crowd, sales suffer. For example, one Festival we play has a main stage and a number of smaller stages. When we play the main stage, which is physically removed from the crowd (above them and separated by a small fence), surrounded by the market tents, we sell far fewer CD's than when we play the "pub" tent, or the satellite stages. I believe it is because there are fewer distractions and we have the ability to capture the audience much better.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:12 AM

I have experimented with prices for years for CD sold from the stage. I am certain that I do not sell more CDs at $10 then I sell at $15 ($15 is the US standard price). No matter what the price of admission has been.

BUT I have found that people are more likely to buy multiples with a little discount incentive. What's worked best for me is offering CDs at $15 for the first, and $10 thereafter. People almost always buy two, where they would have bought one. Some buy 3 or more.

There is not getting around it; by far the most important incentive for CD sales is not price, but an exciting or otherwise moving show. I believe there are two reasons for that - 1) people want to remember and relive the experience through the CD and 2) people want to reward the artist and show their appreciation for the experience.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:15 AM

From breezy:"

If i pay £10 admission , or even £8 should not the artiste ask a more inviting price for their CDs e.g £5 as they will already be getting a fee?...I was very impressed with Anthony John Clark's approach as he would only ask for £5 for a CD, that way he hoped to sell more and get his songs and him out to a greater audience....just a thought
..yes I know they dont have access to retail outlets, so what"


breezy, are you being 'serious' here, or merely playing Devil's Advocate?

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:01 AM

"so I would be stupid to sell my cd for 5 sterling[3 euros],wouldnt I?"

Summat up wi' yer maths I reckon, Dick.
GBP 5.00 x (current X-Rate per FT) 1.10 = Euro 5.50 n'est-ce pas?

But I understand and agree with the points you make in your post.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:56 AM

Fees are often very low, and CD sales help a lot. The Boat Band sells at £10 on a gig(thanks, Will Fly!), and honestly doing it for less would not be a good idea for a number of reasons. Obviously if people have a salary from a day job they can afford to give them away for a fiver, but I really can't. I honestly don't think that lowering the price would generate enough extra trade to make it worth while.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:40 AM

Breezy.why have I been invoked
Artists should sell them for whatever they think appropriate.
its a mistake [imo],to suggest that because a performer is getting paid for a gig,he should sell his cds for less.
if a performer wishes to do that ,thats not my concern,that is the performers.
what performers get for a gig is variable,if I was getting a generous fee,I might be more inclined to reduce my cds,but I dont feel I should be duty bound to do so.
most performers in my experience, dont get paid enough anyway,and cds sales help to keep the wolf from the door.
I believe that 10 pounds is a reasonable price to pay for a cd,but with the way sterling is at the moment against the Euro,I need to charge 12 pounds to get the real value,likewise all my prices for English gigs has now been devalued.
But I cant break my agreements and now ask for more,for my gigs because of the sterling fluctuation,so I would be stupid to sell my cd for 5 sterling[3 euros],wouldnt I?
again I can only bring a certain amount of cds over on a plane,so bringing 50 cds is unpractical,I am better off selling 25 cds at 10 sterrling than 50 at 5 sterling.Iwont be increasing the price of mycds because of the devaluation of sterling ,neither should I be expected to reduce them,I have to live.
http://www.dickmiles.com
I live very frugally.
most professional folk singers like myself have become masters at penny pinching.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:04 AM

No dont think the artist should reduce the price unless they really want to. Performance is one thing and CD sales are another. It seems that performers are always expected to reduce both performance fees and give CDs away for nearly nothing. Its a day job they are doing to earn a living wage.
Breezy, are you prepared to reduce your hourly rate at your day job?

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 06:50 AM

The performer can always take a less amount to do the gig, get more folks in the door & sell more CD's at the table. Of course they can also lower the price of the CD's too & owe at the gig's end. Soon they may have to pay the patrons drinks to boot, just to get them through the door.

Barry

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 06:15 AM

In my own experience, reducing the price will only have so much effect on the number of sales. More important is the number of punters who actually want a CD. If they don't want it enough, you'll struggle to give it away.

From a punter's perspective, I'd also be wary of buying a CD that's priced too cheaply, particularly from an artist I didn't know. It suggests to me that it's been cheaply produced and isn't worth as much as a full-price album (only £5 CDs I've seen at gigs are home-produced, not-available-in-the-shops short-run CD-Rs)

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: treewind
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 05:57 AM

If we sold CDs for £5 we'd make a dead loss against what we paid for them, never mind all the other overheads etc.

We do sell for less than the Wild Goose RRP (£12 vs. £13)
We offer a discount if you buy more than one (£10 each)
We charge purchasers exactly the same price (including quantity discount) via the web site, absorbing transaction and postage costs, which is really quite generous.

And to add to Tom's answer, look at it this way: the ability to make some profit from CD sales (and it's always a gamble - you never know how many or few will sell at a gig) means performers can charge a lower fee that they would otherwise have to, and there's already pressure, from club organisers to keep fees (often unrealistically) low.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 05:41 AM

Breezy - yes, it's very easy to get caught up with enthusiasm at a concert gig and buy the CD, regardless of price! To be honest, I'm very choosy about the events I go to, so rarely get a duff one, or one that's blatantly overpriced.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: gnomad
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 05:37 AM

As Tom says each artist can calculate a unit cost for a disc, which will vary considerably depending on a range of factors. To sell below this price is to incur a loss; something one might decide to do, but not generally a good plan.

The calculation then becomes more subtle: is the artist one who wants to get his work better known (as AJC above) = downward pressure on price; is the evening's deal with the organiser one which leaves the artist with little to gain other than what can be made from merchandising = upward pressure; what price do the audience expect to pay, and will varying that price have a significant effect on sale numbers; the artist can reduce unit costs by selling more, but how many more potential buyers are out there, and how big a reduction.

Economic hard times are affecting us all, audiences and artists alike. I don't feel there can be a right to expect cheap goods at a performance, there are too many factors at play which may make it impossible, but of course I appreciate it when I find them.

Incidentally, the "Sultans" disc is back to £12.69 at Amazon now, damn them.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 05:25 AM

I produce my own DVDs for sale on the 'net, which involves:

1. Creating the original video tracks to HD standard & stereo sound
2. Burning the original, and copying from this master, in both NTSC (US) and PAL (Europe) formats
3. Designing and printing the CD/DVD sticky labels
4. Designing and printing the case insert
5. Assembling the final product

That's a summary of my time. The costs, apart from my time, include:

6. Cost of slip cases
7. Cost of label materials (paper & CD/DVD stickies)
8. Cost of ink
9. Cost of DVD blanks
10. Cost of CD/DVD packaging for the post
11. Cost of postage -airmail for non-UK, 1st-class for UK

I also provide, where appropriate, free downloadable tab/chord/SN sheets from my website, to match some of the DVD pieces. The DVDs sell, through PayPal, for £6 in the UK and $12 (which currently works out at around £7) in North America. I've never worked out the profit because the DVDs are sold to those who want a better quality of my demonstration & educational pieces on YouTube. My guess is that it's around £0 per item! (But that's my choice, as the aim of my YT stuff is free educational).

However, it does support the strength of Tom's argument. There's no such thing as "dead" time for a professional, working musician.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 05:21 AM

It's not a red herring when it's your only source of income, John. Most people know what they earn per year, and can tell you how many hours they do to earn it. If I divide my annual income by the number of hours I spend doing the things I need to do to ensure good quality performances and CDs (and, yes, you do normally include 'captive down time' in that calculation) I get a figure below the minimum wage. If I knew I'd sell more than twice the number of CDs at £5 that's what I'd charge. But at the moment that's not the case. T

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 05:09 AM

Hi Will

Cheers for your contribution

I realise £10 is the going rate but would you agree that on occasions one a can be caught up in the hype of the evening.

I got it, dont buy drinks , buy a CD, it'll last longer.

Should go down well with landlords and room letting officers

Its still foggy so I'll not be going out just yet.

I can spekk justifying

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 05:04 AM

Thank you Tom for your input.

However I do think that justifyibg the price with an 'hourly figure' for all 'add-on' costs is a red herring. Nice try though, 'hanging around time', you sound like a car delivery driver!! We called it down or dead time so we had a cuppa, you could write a song and make it productive ;0]

Is it not better to sell more rather than less and though we may regard ourselves in one light, hey , you even called me a 'professional' - wow, -
the big british pubic havent got a clue and couldnt give a shit.

BTW I do like your songs and think you are a comtenp source for material and I can see others gleaners adding your songs to their repertoire, as for me I'm still listening.

Any others out there wish to add to thos discourse about CD costs at gigs?

Capn Birds?

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:59 AM

Oh - and should have added:

The Boat Band "A Trip To The Lakes" - £10 (£12.69 at Amazon, etc.)

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:56 AM

CDs bought at concert gigs recently:

Richard Durrant - £10 (£10.79 at Amazon, plus postage)
Waterson-Carthy - £10 (£13.98 at mazon, plus postage)
Sultans of Squeeze - £12 (£6.99 at Amazon plus postage)

From this list, it's clear that John Kirkpatrick & Chris Parkinson's "Sultans of Squeeze" CD would have been much cheaper from Amazon. However, the evening had been so good, I didn't actually care on this occasion, and was able to drive home with the tunes from the concert playing away in the car.

A tenner seems to be the going rate for CDs sold at gigs.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:45 AM

Hi John

It's not quite as simple as that. Some artists have to buy their CDs from their record company, so simply can't lower their price.

For those of us who run our own labels; if you subtract your costs (fuel, equipment, strings, phone bills, website, printing - and the unit cost of the CD, including recording and printing etc) from the fee, then divide by the number of hours you've spent preparing, organising, driving, hanging about and performing, you get an hourly figure some way below the minimum wage. So it's tempting to sell CDs at the 'market rate' of £10 or so pounds. That said, I do sell some old unwrapped CDs at £5, and I'm aware that I would sell more units if I dropped the price of my current CDs to £5. But the increased uptake would not be enough to make up the difference (I know because I've tried it). The break point is about £8. But that would mean carrying around a big bag of coins and faffing about at the CD stall - and life's too short!

However, as you suggest in your other thread, the economy may change these figures, so I'll keep an open mind.

Tom

Subject: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:31 AM

If i pay £10 admission , or even £8 should not the artiste ask a more inviting price for their CDs e.g £5 as they will already be getting a fee?

I was very impressed with Anthony John Clark's approach as he would only ask for £5 for a CD, that way he hoped to sell more and get his songs and him out to a greater audience.

just a thought

yes I know they dont have access to retail outlets, so what