BS: Spirituality

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I'd Rather Be an Old Time Christian
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 08:25 AM

I just read this full thread for the first time and find it hard to get a handle on what is going on. I even have a hard time trying to figure out "spirituality" is. I can understand your concern, Raptor, if this is someone you care about. And, I think the advice of keeping yourself available if the person wants to turn to you is right on target. Truth is, though, (I think) we can't always "save" other people from doing something really stupid and self-destructive. Most everyone who has responded to this thread has done plenty of stupid, self-destructive things in their lives despite friends and family telling them that they were heading for trouble. I know that I have. Sometimes, you just have to do what you can, recognize that we are all limited in how much we can affect the lives of others, and then let it go. Anyone who has raised children and gone through their teenage, young adult years with them knows that at some point, you just have to let go and if it's your own approach to "spirituality" put them in prayer. Just "be there" if they need you and turn to you.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 04:47 AM

Seems to me that some of the people on this thread have either judged you or your friend on what you have written but I find little to form an opinion of substance either way. I do however agree that as this person is your friend, you should offer a caring front and subtly get the message across that you are there if needed. Be a friend to your friend whatever, and try not to be judgemental. If you find out some facts about the organisation which cause you great concern, confront your friend (in as sensitive a way as possible) tell him about your findings and leave it with him....still being there for him...whatever.
I wish to make clear here that this is an opinion based on little knowledge and is "perhaps" what I would do in your situation.
Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 04:30 AM

Don't blame it on spirituality. That makes about as much sense as invading Iraq to get even for 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 01:00 AM

Art:

Beautiful sentiments for their truth, and their humor too!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 11:58 PM

Schizophrenia beats dining alone. And once you get used to it, insanity can be the most normal thing in the world.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Raptor
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 09:29 AM

I have been noticing that the people who talk about spirituality and needing healing are people who would greatly benifit by just accepting who they are and stop wanting to change themselves to be something they think they should be!

I've taken up Hand drumming and Dayla and I have found a couple of drum circles to attend one of them is full of people who seem to act like professional victoms the are in need of some sort of healing for being downtrodden. They are a huggy group and seem very phony. They speak about love and happiness but to talk to them at lunch after the drum circle they are a pissed off back bitting group of people!

I have also met people who are very happy with who they are and seem to be doing great and those are the people who are a pleasure to be around!

I'm not knocking spiritual persuits, I find yoga to be a great way to relax the mind and body and I know many people who benifit from Ti chi and chi gong, and find zen writings a great way to open up the mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 09:19 AM

Know a guy who joined a Jesus Cult back in the '70s. Said everything they did was done by Jesus through them, and the feeling of "belonging" was wonderful. He had no fears, no doubts.

Then one day he realized he'd just said, "Thank you, Jesus, for tying my shoes." It hit him that just maybe, maybe, Jesus and/or God the Father had lots of more important things to do than tie his shoes.

At that point, he walked out and back into what, for him, passes for a normal life.

Maybe this will happen.

Just be there.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Raptor
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 09:03 AM

42 the "pious asshole comment" is about a PM I recieved that you did not see!

As for the cult situation I was worried that this group of people are after more than the spiritual advancement of the folks that seem to be enchanted by the leader. There is no indication that they have asked for money yet! And I feel that mentioning thier name might be slanderous!

If they are genuine good for them and good for him! I wish them well!
I was just worried about someone I cared about!

And yes I probably am just feeling hurt and betrayed but the cause for concern was that said friend WAS looking like shit, And becomming more of an introvert, and these have indicated depression in him in the past! And depression is a very scary thing (my wife had it for years before she died)

Most people shrug it off and say thet they are doing thier own thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 07:56 AM

Ellenpoly, I know the people and a little about the spiritual group in question here, and I unfortunately have a bit of personal experience with being waylaid and used by a psychically powerful, charismatic "guru" type . (Freightdawg's most accurate description above brought back some chilling memories shiver shiver) In light of all that, I do think you are right on in your interpretation of the situation Raptor is concerned about.

People who feel a longstanding deep-seated discontent with themselves or their lives, or who are dealing with traumatic life experiences can develop unhealthy attachments and dependencies, not only upon "gurus" but upon friends.

I'd like to assure all of you good-hearted Catters that I while I'm 99% positive all is well I am keeping a watchful eye on the situation, and that the people involved continue to receive the very best of my "prayerful" efforts and intentions.

You are a wonderful bunch!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: 42
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 07:49 AM

Raptor - there is a ring of selfishness in your posts...your friend doesn't want to hang out anymore...you're lonely.

I certainly don't feel like a mindless idiot and am trying to respect and trust the exploration of my version of your friend.

I'm with Ellenopoly on this one and I think discussing this with your friend in a somewhat less aggressive manner might set your mind at ease.(or at least let you feel less responsible for setting them on the "right" path)

"Act like a pious asshole" ??What's that about? It seems to me you are indulging in a little personal peity yourself...what you think works for you may not be the answer for your friends.

j

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Gurney
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 07:27 AM

I had a pal do that. It turned out that the cult AND the moodiness were symptoms of a physical health problem that was worrying him, and that he died of. Didn't twig until too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 04:03 AM

I think there is more going in here than a lot of us are aware of.

Little Hawk, if you do indeed know the person in question, and if you are intimating that the problem lies possibly more with the person who began this thread and his inablity to accept change happening to a friend...then I wish you'd make that clear.

Raptor, I am getting that you feel very hurt over this, and betrayed. But to feel these things towards someone you like, or liked, is quite different than thinking that he has been badly influenced by a "cult".

Cults of all kinds can indeed be dangerous, and I'm not defending what I know can be very difficult situations with friends and family...but I'm feeling from your last post, and from the one Little Hawk wrote, that this isn't really the case. The guy has disappointed you personally more than your concern that he is being controlled by this unnamed spiritual group. You've offered little in the way of facts about it, and again, though I understand your feelings of having lost a friend, please try not to make this into something it may well not be.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Micca
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 03:31 AM

I have found This Frame very useful in deciding if something is a "cult" or just for generally evaluating organisations that seek to exercise some control over its followers

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 01:33 AM

Raptor:

Do you know what this practice is that he has submerged himself into?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Raptor
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 11:06 PM

Apparently this guy now believes that all his old friends are somehow beneth him and are mindless idiots not worth his time.

Spirituality more often than not involves people triing to be something that they are not in the belief that if they act like the people they want to be they will somehow be better!

Wearing a loincloth and painting a dot on yer head doesn't make you Ghandi.

Burning tobacco and sage doesn't make you native!

Bottom line Try to be a good person to those around you and you will be rewarded! Act like a pious asshole and you are worth nothing!

I used to feel sorry for this guy cause he was always triing to be someone else,Something that he wasn't. But he let me down and seems to be more selfish than I gave him credit for and if thats his idea of being a better more chalenged person, so be it.

At this time in my life I need friends that I can count on, not people that will let you down.

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 09:44 PM

How about seeing a good mental health doctor?

This person sounds mentally ill.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 09:17 PM

Tough line to walk here. You can't come off as judgemental because his "guru" has allready warned him about "folks like you" and that will only drive a wedge...

...but you can't not tell him that you are concerned about him.

You do need to confront your friend in an indirect manner that is not threatening.

"Gee, _______, you seem to going thru some though times. Hey, if you ever want to talk about stuff call me any time." Then pause, look him straught in the eye, put your hand on his shouder and say, "I mean this very sincerely."

Then leave it alone but continue to keep yerself avilable to him/her.

And yer prayers for your friend might help, too...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 08:59 PM

Okay, here's the key:

1. Find out if they are engaging in human sacrifice.

2. Find out if they swear blood oaths.

3. Find out if they employ the uses of rodents in what could be termed an unusual manner.

4. Find out if they hate football and are bored by hockey.

5. Find out if they bow down before graven images of William Shatner.

If so...prepare to mount an extremely hazardous rescue operation. Your friend's sanity could hang in the balance.

Several other disturbing signs:

a)A reduction of interest in watching TV.
b)A reduced tendency to play computer games till 3 AM.
c)Going to bed early and rising early.
d)Practicing Qui Gong.
e)Meditating.
f)An alarming tendency to read "serious" books, as opposed to crime novels.
g)Totally not giving a shit what anyone else thinks about all of the above (a-f).

These disturbing sings could indicate that your friend is slipping rapidly out of the grasp of what is termed "normality". It may be possible to save him/her, but it will not be easy. Be prepared for the worst!

***(Lest anyone think I am being insensitive in bringing humour to this matter that Raptor has brought up...well, I know the friend in question...and that's why I am doing so. I have reason to.)

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 08:24 PM

Raptor:

Do you know the name of the "spiritual" practice he is pursuing?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Janie
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 08:15 PM

Without more information about his behavioral changes it is impossible to guess what might be going on. You sound like you are really concerned for him. If the changes are extreme, especially with the irritability and the religiosity, then he may need evaluated by a mental health professional. He could be going through a particularly severe episode of Major Depressive Disorder, or even showing signs of Bipolar Disorder. Both can really mess with one's thinking.

Or...he may just be really crabby about something.

If you know someone in the MH field, or have a local community mental health center, you may call and describe your concerns to them and see if they recommend that you try to get him in to see some one. Otherwise, feel free to PM me with more details and I may be able to tell you if it is critical for him to be evaluated.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: freightdawg
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 08:01 PM

Bouts of depression, moodiness, separation from friends, isolation: you used just about every word that describes a cult. The problem with cults is that they always have a very charismatic leader (the guru to whom you refer) and he/she exercises a tremendous amount of guilt/manipulation/power/control over the people in their "family." Of course your friend cannot see what is going on, because every time you try to point something out to him he will report it to his guru who will then use every manipulative trick in the book to overcome your concern, and turn your friend against you in the process. The problem is the more you confront, the more the guru will try to cut you out of your friend's life.

The only way to completely help your friend is to remove him from the guru/cult for a period of time long enough for him to see how he has changed. Every day he is in the group it will be harder. It can be done, but if he has any contact with the "family" your work will be destroyed. Some cults can be particularly physical with someone they consider to be wavering, so be careful.

Every church/synagogue/mosque/prayer circle/spiritual group exhibits some of the same characteristics, but with a major difference in focus. Legitimate groups want the spiritual health of a person to increase, not decrease. They should be concerned with the whole person, not just one aspect. Also, most healthy spiritual leaders encourage dialog on spiritual matters, they do not seek to eliminate it.

Best of luck. I am by no means a specialist, but I may (repeat, may) be able to help in some way. PM me if you want. I would need to know more about the emphases of the particular group your friend is associated with.

My thoughts are with you.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 08:00 PM

You could just ask him what it is that worries him.....


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: freda underhill
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 07:49 PM

hi raptor

what a good friend you are to him. just being there for him if it falls apart is the best thing you can do. if it doesn't, well, its working for him.

i would take him to a comedy club occasionally. that'll knock some reality into him!

good luck

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 07:47 PM

Be a good friend, in small ways, to keep contact. What might that look like?

Be honestly curious about what he is experiencing, and ask questions from that place, not trying to "de-goof" him. Support HIS thought process-- don't angle for him to change it for yours-- so that he can think about things for himself.

Remember that it's his life and that he can handle it, and remain a loving and available support person even if he disappears for awhile-- be a good place to come home to when he's ready.

Be a good model of having a sense of humor about oneself. Cults are so SERIOUS. Be fun, off the topic of the concerns.

(And maybe at the same time, quietly investigate the situation and see if you have any information about illegal activities of the higher-ups, that you can pass along to the right people?)

~Susan

Subject: BS: Spirituality
From: Raptor
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 07:40 PM

I'm worried about a friend

He has taken up a spirituality phase that seems to be doing him more harm than good!

Before he got serious about this stuff he was calm, easy going,relaxed, and enjoyed many different things. Now he looks 20 years older seems more stressed out about the simplest things and is not very scociable at all, When out he is more arguementitive and tends to seem to get pissed off and leave early.

If spirituality is about bettering yourself why should it seem to be bad for him?

My major concern is that the guru guy he seems to be following might be after financial gain to fund part of a Toronto chapter of his cult or whatever this thing is.

My buddy seems to be cutting himself off from the friends that really care about him!

He goes through bouts of depression and won't realize that he may be being sucked in to some false reality while being isolated from the real world!

Any advice would be apriciated!

Raptor