BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:33 PM

The US claimed that Iraq had a nuclear weapons program that it didn't have and the US then went in and destroyed that country. Oops. It didn't have nuclear weapons. Had Iraq had any nuclear weapons, the US would not have attacked it.

On the subject of the Gaza blockade, yes, people are not able to get their basic survival needs met, and yet somehow the people firing rockets are able to get the components for those rockets. That shows that the blockade does not accomplish the purpose that it is ostensibly meant to accomplish (keeping the rockets from being fired from Gaza). However, some members of the Israeli government have said that the purpose of the blockade is to coerce the people in Gaza into getting rid of Hamas. That seems more like the real reason for the blockade, and that is collective punishment (and a war crime).

Members of the Israeli government said the same thing about Israel's bombing campaign against Lebanon in the early days of it. They were saying that it was supposed to convince the people of southern Lebanon to kick Hezbolla out. That makes Israel's bombing campaign on Lebanon a war crime as well.

I have seen conflicting reports of the location of the first attack when the Israeli soldiers were taken. I have seen reports that It was in Israeli territory, and I have seen reports that the Israelis were in Lebanese territory when they were taken. I have also seen conflicting reports about whether or not there were diversionary rocket attacks at the time that the soldiers were taken. I don't have a fully formed opinion on that one right now. But it is true that Israel had been committing raids, kidnappings, military overflights and other violations of Lebanese territory since it withdrew from its occupation of Lebanon. Israel has many hundreds of Lebanese people whom it has kidnapped, and is holding without any charges made against them, and no trails or convictions. Hundreds of these people are women and children.

Israel thinks it can justify bombing a whole country back into the stone age for a very small handful of soldiers, but if people in Lebanon take three soldiers in order to try to get back those hundreds of people, they are the bad guys. I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:13 PM

Hey CarolC,

Here's the Hezbollah attack on Israel on 12th July 2006:

12 Jul 2006        3 soldiers killed, 2 others kidnapped by Hezbollah terrorists crossing the border from Lebanon; among ground forces pursuing the terrorists across the border, 4 were killed in the bombing of a tank and 1 was killed during recovery following the bombing of the tank.

And here's the diversionary rocket attack that the raid was mounted under:

12 Jul 2006        Hezbollah rockets (120) fired from southern Lebanon into northern Israel, striking Shlomi and Shebaa Farms.

On the same day 16 Kassam rockets were fired from Gaza into Southern Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:54 PM

"So we know from experience that there is nothing Hamas or any other Palestinians can do that will make even one little bit of difference."

Nothing? How positive - you'd make a great politician with powerful ideas.

"Israel has no intention of allowing any Palestinians to remain living in Gaza"

What? Who said that? Probably just that super correct and balanced unbiased information in the Indifada website - I assume.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:53 PM

Hezbollah kept firing rockets continuously in the past six years after Israel withdrew from Lebanon. (Beardedbruce)

I think you confuse Hezbollah and Palestinian rocket attacks:

Hezbollah Attacks Since May 2000

Hezbollah is responsible for several attacks between 2000 and 2006, but a "continuous" firing of rockets is not among what they did.

Nevertheless, the correction to Carol's misinformation stands: The firing of rockets came before the bombing by Israel.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:34 PM

"The blockade of Gaza does not prevent rockets from getting into Israel. All it does is prevent Gazans from being able to live. As such, it is collective punishment and a war crime." - CarolC, 27 May 08 - 02:09 AM.

Bloody hilarious that CarolC, you have a very interesting take on things, you entirely miss the point that not only does the blockade fail to prevent rockets getting into Israel. The "blockade" also seems to fail in preventing the rockets, or components to make them, being delivered to Gaza. But somehow Hamas cannot get in food or medical supplies? Bloody strange that isn't it, particularly if you were under the rather misinformed impression that Hamas actually gives a flying f**k about the Palestinians living in Gaza.

War crimes eh CarolC? You and Guest David and guest Albert seem awfully concerned about war crimes. Is that sort of selective or does it apply across the board?

How about these war crimes:

- Indiscriminate targeting of civilians and civilian centres of population as practiced by Hamas and Islamic Jihad from Gaza, and by Hezbollah from South Lebanon.

- Embedding combat formations and heavy weapons in civilian areas, thereby using that civilian population as a "human shields".

Now according to Guest Albert such things do not happen, according to his accounts of events Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah have never fired a rocket into Israel in their entire existence.

Guest Albert I don't know if you actually opened up that picture link I sent of the town of Wesel, but that was the result of intensive bombing and shelling over a period of three days - You are trying to tell us that Gaza has been subjected to intensive bombing and shelling for over a year? You're havin' a bath aren't you.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:16 PM

Hi CarolC:

""Re Hillary Clinton and Iran
Clinton threatened to obliterate Iran if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons.
However ,Iran does not have nuclear weapons and has never attacked another country." - Guest David.

"Well Guest David if what you state there is correct then Iran is no danger whatsoever is it?" - Teribus

Clearly stated that the only way that the US is going to obliterate Iran is if Iran attacks Israel with nuclear weapons - I can think of no logical reason why HRC would lie about that, so what she said has to be taken at face value.

According to Guest David Iran does not have nuclear weapons and has never attacked another country (Not strictly true by the way). I know that no-one in their right mind believes that the current Iranian nuclear programme is purely peaceful (Russia and IAEA included) but as we took what HRC said at face value we should similarly take what Guest David has said at face value.

So hilarious as CarolC finds it logic would tend to suggest that if Iran does not have nuclear weapons then they can hardly attack Israel with weapons it doesn't have. So as there can be no Iranian nuclear attack on Israel, there can be no obliteration of Iran by the US.

I must admit I am absolutely dying to see how the UN wriggles as the President of the IAEA explains away Iran's first nuclear weapon test. That'll surely put an end to the Nuclear NPT and then won't the world be that much safer, it'll scare the hell out of Russia and China for certain and if you believe oil is expensive now, just wait, you'll find that you've never been born.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:10 PM

Hezbollah kept firing rockets continuously in the past six years after Israel withdrew from Lebanon. ( from a conversation in Aug. 2006)


So your claim is blatently false, as the act YOU have said started the war included rocket attacks on Iraeli civilians, BEFORE any Isralei bombing.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:07 PM

We have been told here that Hezbollah committed an act of war, but it wasn't really an act of war...it was a negotiating ploy. Pardon me if I find that logic more way more than a little flawed. I don't believe that Hezbollah gets to set the rules as to how the Israel responds to that kidnapping and shelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:05 PM

"You have to understand where this conflict started. As Labors foreign affairs spokesman Kevin Rudd said, Hamas and Hezbollah, the two terrorist organisations, launched rocket attacks on Israeli territory. Furthermore, Hamas and Hezbollah engaged in violations of Israeli territory, capturing and killing Israeli armed force members.

The current conflict began with the Iranian supplied missiles targeting only civilians in Israeli towns and cities. The Israelis enjoy a de   facto peace with the government of Lebanon and formal peace with Jordan and Egypt.

"

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:02 PM

Not only did they start the war by using the rockets ( while kidnapping the Israeli soldiers that YOU say were kidnapped BEFORE the IOsraeli bombings) but they also had been using the rockets previously, in bombarding civilian areas of Israel.



"The 2006 Lebanon War was a 34-day military conflict in Lebanon and northern Israel. The principal parties were Hezbollah paramilitary forces and the Israeli military. The conflict started on July 12, 2006, and continued until a United Nations-brokered ceasefire went into effect on August 14, 2006. Hezbollah was responsible for thousands of Katyusha rocket attacks against Israeli civilian towns and cities in northern Israel,[86] in which Hezbollah said those attacks were retaliation for Israel's killing of civilians and targeting the Lebanese infrastructure.[105]


The conflict began when Hezbollah militants fired rockets at Israeli border towns as a diversion for an anti-tank missile attack on two armored Humvees patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence, killing three, injuring two, and seizing two Israeli soldiers.[106"

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:44 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zar%27it-Shtula_incident

Zar'it-Shtula incident
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Date July 12, 2006
Location Lebanon-Israel border
Result Beginning of 2006 Lebanon War.

Belligerents
Israel Hezbollah
Casualties and losses
8 killed,
2 captured

The Zar'it-Shtula incident was a cross-border attack committed by Lebanon-based Hezbollah special forces on an Israeli military patrol on 12 July 2006 on Israeli territory. The operation was originally named "Freedom for Samir Al-Quntar and his brothers" by Hezbollah, but it was shortened to "Operation Truthful Promise".[1] Using rockets fired on several Israeli towns as a diversion, Hezbollah militants crossed from Lebanon into Israel [2] and ambushed two Israeli Army vehicles, killing three Israeli soldiers and capturing two. Hezbollah demanded the release of Lebanese prisoners held by Israel in exchange for the release of the abducted soldiers. Israel refused and launched a large-scale military campaign across Lebanon in response to the Hezbollah incursion. This marked the start of the 2006 Lebanon War.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:25 PM

By the way, right from the start (after they captured the soldiers), Hezbollah was saying "lets negotiate". They didn't want a war. They only wanted a prisoner exchange. The news reportage on the 12th bears this out.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:18 PM

We supply weapons to terrorist, too, even ones that are committing terrorist attacks on our allies, like Turkey. I don't think we're in a position to nuke or even attack another country for doing something that we do ourselves.


Re: Hezbollah rockets and Israeli bombing...I know the facts on that one. I remember the news reports at the time, too. I remember they reported bombing by Israel before they reported the rockets from Hezbollah.

But here's some documentation to back that up...


Hezbollah, under the leadership of Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, enters Israel and captures two Israeli soldiers on July 12. In response, Israel launches a major military attack, bombing the Lebanese airport and parts of southern Lebanon. Hezbollah retaliates by launching hundreds of rockets and missles—believed to have been supplied by Syria and Iran—into Israel.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/lebanontime1.html

2006 July - Israel launches air and sea attacks on targets in Lebanon after Lebanon's militant Hezbollah group captures two Israeli soldiers. Civilian casualties are high and the damage to civilian infrastructure wide-ranging. Thousands of people are displaced. In August Israeli ground troops thrust into southern Lebanon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/819200.stm

July 2006: Hezbollah militants cross into Israel, kill three Israeli soldiers and kidnap two others in a bid to negotiate a prisoner exchange, a demand rebuffed by Israel. Another five Israeli soldiers are killed after the ambush. Israel responds with a naval blockade and by bombing hundreds of targets in Lebanon, including Beirut's airport and Hezbollah's headquarters in southern Beirut. Hezbollah responds with rocket attacks targeting northern Israeli cities. Fighting leaves dozens of Lebanese civilians dead and coincides with a two-week-old Israeli military campaign in Gaza in response to the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier by Palestinian militants.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/14/israel.lebanon.timeline/index.html

July 12:

» Hezbollah captures two Israeli soldiers and kills eight.

» Israel launches air strikes and sends ground troops into Lebanon for the first time since its 2000 pullout.

-AFP

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/July_War06.asp


JERUSALEM (CNN) -- The Israeli Cabinet authorized "severe and harsh" retaliation on Lebanon after Hezbollah guerillas kidnapped two soldiers and killed three others in a cross-border raid Wednesday.

Israel quickly blamed the Lebanese government for the raid -- and charged it with the soldiers' safe release -- and the Israel Defense Forces began hammering Lebanon with artillery and airstrikes hours before the Cabinet met to discuss a response.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/12/mideast/

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:15 PM

CarolC

"It should be noted that Hezbollah didn't start firing rockets into Israel until after Israel had already started bombing Lebanon. Israel started the bombing in that war, not Hezbollah. "


False statement. Please check your facts.

Just because you want it to be true does not make it so.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:31 AM

David & Carole - it's a crazy world. Hard to believe governments can do stupid things that can kill a lot of people. - They do- all the time throughout history.
Nuclear arms should be abolished by all.
"I don't believe in any of this guff about any one particular nationality or religion being prone to suicide or martyrdom." - Suicide bombers call themselves martyrs all the time, and are celebrated by their families- it's no guff.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:20 AM

Iran makes it's jihad by supplying weapons to Hezbollah, Hamas, the Taliban and to insurgents in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:47 AM

Whoa there Arnie,
Remember Iran has never attacked a single country that I am aware of.Its war against Iraq was launched by Iraq with some help from the USA.

I am certainly not advocating a nuclear armed Iran ...that would be another nail in the coffin for the peoples of the Middle East.
But Iran is surrounded by hostile nuclear states.
Israel to the west which will not even acknowledge it has nuclear missiles pointed at Iran.

There is a American nuclear armed fleet just a few miles off shore in the Gulf [imagine an Iranian nuclear fleet in the Gulf of Mexico!] and there is also an unstable nuclear Pakistan to the east.

I dont believe in any of this guff about any one particular nationality or religion being prone to suicide or martyrdom. That smacks of a kind of euocentric orientalism of the kind Edward Said wrote about which is essentially a form of racism.

What about a nuclear free Middle East or would that be to much to ask of both the USA and Israel?
David

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:46 AM

Jihad

The Iranian Mullahs are more interested in preserving and maintaining their power than they are in Jihad. They are not stupid. They know that they will not be able to retain power if their country ceases to exist. And they know that their country will cease to exist if they attempt to attack another country with nuclear weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:34 AM

Of course CaroleC!!]
DAVID

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:21 AM

The difference between nukes in Iran and nukes in Israel is this: Iranians are jihadists who believe in martyrdom to achieve their goals. Suicide, murder, the death even of Muslims is good as long as it furthers this agenda. To have a nuke to use is a jihadist's dream.
Nukes in Israel - are a last strike resort and deterrence. ( If they wern't, they could have used them by now . There have been instances in Jewish history where Jews have committed suicide instead of being killed or forced into conversion, but generally Jews do not believe in suicide and martyrdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:24 AM

I wasn't disagreeing with you, David. The italicized parts of my post were quotes from other people. In the part that I think you are responding to, it was a quote from Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:11 AM

To Carolc
I don't know the extent or the immediacy of the danger that Iran finds itself in.

However it is clear that there are some at the highest levels in the Bush administation and in Israel who would like to launch an attack on Iran.

This would almost certainly take the form of an air attack and would be targetted at the nuclear facilities which Iran says are for civilian use.

I don't think America has the stomach or capacity for another ground war in the Middle East after the debacle it is involved with in Iraq.

It is a sort of awful joke that the USA with its thousands of nuclear missiles and bombs and Israel with its hundred plus bombs [thank you Jimmy Carter for reminding us about those ], can complain about another country developing nuclear facilities even though Iran has stated time and time again it is not developing nuclear weapons but only civilian nuclear technology.

Iran has had the nuclear inspectors in several times to check out their facilities and these inspectors cannot find evidence of nuclear weapons although this morning the Guardian reported that the pressure from America remains .

It is worth noting that Israel will not allow nuclear inspectors into its Negev nuclear facility and will still not allow Morechai Vanunu to leave the country although he has not be inside a nuclear facility for over 20 years.

What does this have to do with the thread? Israel is one of the most militarised countries in the world.It has one of the world's most powerful military forces which have been unleashed without a qualm against civilians time and time again.Only two years ago Israeli warplanes raced of the Syrian president's palace as a reminder of what he can expect if Syria does not behave itself.
A few months ago Israeli war planes attacked a Syrian military facility in the north of the country.

The Israeli military machine is currently strangling Gaza and could launch further attacks at any time.Meanwhile back in Iraq the US has turned parts of Baghdad into a free fire zone.

These are not the actions of rational countries.These are the actions of violent racist governments who pay little or no heed to the well being of Palestinian or Iraqi people. Would Bush think any differently about the Iranians ...I doubt it.

Bush could still launch an attack before November in the hope of playing the patriotic card and scuppering the democrats for their lack of machismo and loyalty to the flag.And there would be voices in Israel urging him to do so.
david

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:18 AM

Interesting article from an Israeli Holocaust surviver on the subject of anti-Semitism...

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=172

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:32 AM

During the Lebanon war I wrote freguently--exchanged words--with the Israeli Foreign Ministry via e-mail. At the time I suggested that it would be good if Israel simply stopped waging war for THREE days, and if the rockets continued, then take the gloves off and hit the targets hard.

It should be noted that Hezbollah didn't start firing rockets into Israel until after Israel had already started bombing Lebanon. Israel started the bombing in that war, not Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:28 AM

If Hamas declared today they would stop all rockets and attacks and recognize Israel's right to exist immediately, this would all end fast. Israel would in turn stop attacks and enter into peace negotiations. Economic relations would follow. Israel has no interest in fostering the kind of hostilities coming from Gaza. The will has to be there on both sides - not one side.

Although it wasn't as complete as it is now, the blockade was in effect before Hamas was elected. The Palestinians in Gaza did not have control of their borders, shoreline, or airspace after Israel withdrew from Gaza (or before, either). The Gazans were being kept as prisoners there long before Hamas was elected. It's because of this that some of them are firing rockets.

Hamas agreed to a ceasefire, and they even kept it, unilaterally, for a year. The only thing they got in return was targeted killings of their leaders (along with a lot of collaterally killed civilians). So we know from experience that there is nothing Hamas or any other Palestinians can do that will make even one little bit of difference. Israel has no intention of allowing any Palestinians to remain living in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:17 AM

"ELECTRONIC INTIFADA" - definitely no bias in that webpage!

One could give the same response about websites like that of the ADL as well. (Ironic name for an organization that spends a large amount of time and resources defaming people.)

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:09 AM

A little detail you overlooked that must have slipped your mind, guest David, is rockets, David, being fired from Gaza at Israel, does that ring a bell, David? Over 830 rockets and 840 mortars fired from Gaza have struck southern Israel since the beginning of the year (January - April 2008).

The blockade of Gaza does not prevent rockets from getting into Israel. All it does is prevent Gazans from being able to live. As such, it is collective punishment and a war crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:03 AM

Well Guest David if what you state there is correct then Iran is no danger whatsoever is it?

LOL!!!


It's the countries without nuclear weapons that get attacked, not the other way around!

LOLOL

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:57 AM

I haven't forgotten you, Teribus. I'm writing a long one. It's going to take me a couple more days, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:55 AM

The conflict stems from the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people from their homeland.I believe the Zionists used the term population transfer.

The Palestinian people and their children and grandchildren are now living in refugee campa across the Middle East and there can be no peace and no justice until they win their right to return if they want it.After all every Jewish person in the world [bar Finkelstein it seems ]has the right to go to Israel.

That is most unlikely to happen under the extreme right wing government that is in power in Israel.

The solution the government proposes is still more attacks,assaults ,theft of land,facts on the ground,illegal settlements on the West Bank,the Apartheid Wall and the slicing up of remaining Palestinian land into strips controlled by the Israeli military.Israel intends to break the Palestinians.

This is where decades of Zionism has led .Israelis now one of the most violent and distorted places in the world.A place where an illegal armed settler can drive by a palestinan and shot him down with barely a word said.Ir is a place where Zionist thugs can beat up and break the arms of Palestinian kids without punishment,it is a place where the majority of the male Palestinian population of the West Bank has been detained or imprisoned by the Israeli state.It is a place where observers to the thousands of houses being demolished by giant bulldozers can be shot dead by snipers or have their backs broken under the blades of those dozers.

albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:49 PM

"And we wont forget the monstrous bombing of Lebanon which destroyed thousands of homes,flattened apartment blocks,massacred convoys of fleeing civilians, wrecked hospitals and bridges and so on."

Just as the Israelis won't forget years of murderous attacks on their civilian population. NO ONE will forget. You won't. They won't. Does this make you happy?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:34 PM

I want to try ONCE more, then forget trying again.

Until such time as Hezbollah and Hamas stop the rocket attacks and suicide bombers, there will be no peace. I suspect that H and H know that, so they keep doing it. The Israelis respond in a predictable manner and the losses are high on the Gaza/Palestinian side because the Israeli war technology is better by a long shot. That said, I think Israel would welcome peace.

During the Lebanon war I wrote freguently--exchanged words--with the Israeli Foreign Ministry via e-mail. At the time I suggested that it would be good if Israel simply stopped waging war for THREE days, and if the rockets continued, then take the gloves off and hit the targets hard. They wouldn't accept that line of reasoning, and I guess if I'd been in Israel, I wouldn't have accepted it either. Peace is never a unilateral thing. It will take two 'sides' to achieve peace, and there are many more than two sides involved. It is not in the interests of Hezbollah to let peace happen. I do wish the Israelis would forget targeting any civilian areas and send hunter/killer teams after Hezbollah targets. Find them and kill them. Period. Than maybe Hamas COULD sit down to talk peace. Maybe the answer is for Hamas to shut down Hezbollah. But I tend to think the people who claim to want peace in the Middle East really mean they want Israel destroyed as a precondition to peace talks. Then the factions will talk to each other, without Israel.

Unless Hezbollah is reined in, there will be no possibility of peace. Period. I wish it were otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:05 PM

"The will has to be there on both sides - not one side."

How true.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 May 08 - 07:57 PM

Regarding Normal Finklestein: I was in error and I appologize. This was not a publicity stunt, although He appears to be getting some good publicity out of this. I heard him interviewed about it on CBC radio today. He was not going to Israel to give lectures or speeches, He was going to visit a friend in the West Bank which he has visited over the last 15 years. According to him, Israeli authorities questioned him and held him there for 18 hours when they decided to put him on a plane back home and told him not to come back for 10 years. He has no idea why they decided to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 26 May 08 - 07:17 PM

The notable American mathematician, David Mumford, winner of the 2008 Wolf Foundation prize for Mathematics has announced that he is to give the 100000 dollar prize to the Palestininian Bir Zeit university near Ramallah in the occupied West Bank and to the Israeli organisation Gisha set up to help Palestinians travel freely.

His donation has gone to the university to highlight the enormous difficulties Palestinian young people face when being educated under Israeli occupation.
david

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 26 May 08 - 06:34 PM

Ah Teribus,
Atrocities committed against the civilian population of Gaza and you, mealy mouthed, seek to divert attention elsewhere as if it were of no importance whatsoever.

You only have to look at the television screen over the past year or so to have seen the huge amount of damage cause by the indiscriminate shelling of Gaza....and if it wasn't indiscriminate it must have been targetted.

You mentioned several cities bombed   during the war but of course you have not mentioned those closer to Israel....like....for example Beirut ....destroyed by Israeli shelling and bombing in the early 1980s and again in 2006.

And who was the "Butcher of Beirut"? Why none other than that old war criminal himself Ariel Sharon who went on to become the political leader of Israel.

Thousands died in Beirut the first time round.Victims of Israeli shelling and bombing.And then of course the Israelis arranged for its fascist falange allies to go into the refugee camps populated largely by old men,women and children to slaughter with knives and machine guns.
An Israeli tribunal held Sharon responsible for this atrocity but was he placed in the dock? Was he hell!

And in 2006 Israel once again went on the rampage in Lebanon bombing ,shelling from the air ,land and sea.Who can forget the dozens of women and children slaughtered at Qana by Israeli warplanes or the UN observers blown to bits or the car convoys of terrified refugees strafed with rockets and shellfire? Thousands died as the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon was destroyed.
Teribus ,Jimmy Carter has redirected the world's attention to Gaza ...and the destruction of that city is a terrible war crime !
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 08 - 05:33 PM

"The intensive bombing and shelling of civilians in their homes and apartment blocks." - Guest Albert

"The demolition of Palestinian homes by the thousand." - Guest Albert

Albert, have you got even the vaguest inkling of what that would look like if indeed it were true?

How about this Guest Albert - this article mentions "intensive bombing of civilians in their homes":

Thousands Killed in Bombing Raids!

The Blitz was a campaign of intense bombing of not only London and Coventry but many other major cities and towns where factories and other key manufacturing industries were built. But because bombing was not accurate many of the bombs fell on streets and houses killing thousands of civilians and destroying hundreds of houses and other properties.

From the 7th September 1940 until 16th May 1941 the German Luftwaffe carried out an intensive bombing campaign on British cities and it's industries.

London was attacked on 57 consecutive nights between 7th September and the 2nd November with over one million bombs dropped in two months with further raids in December 1940 as well as from March to May 1941.

Fifteen other cities also suffered major bombing attacks such as Coventry, which caused widespread damage.

Over 41,000 civilians were killed during this period in Britain with a further 137.000 people reported injured.

Or alternatively look at Valetta in Malta a much smaller area with far poorer defences, it got hit three times worse than London for a far longer period.

If you want to see the results of "intensive bombing" Guest Albert have a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wesel_1945.jpg

Intensive bombing and shelling of civilians in their homes for over a year eh Guest Albert. Any idea what the casualties have been Guest Albert? I mean they must number in the hundreds of thousands Guest Albert, intensive bombing and shelling for over a year, the place must be totally flattened like those pictures of Wesel in 1945.

Yet you know its odd Guest Albert, because I haven't read of anything remotely akin to what you describe, nobody's reported it, nobody's photographed it. Now how could this be Guest Albert? Or is it just a emotive load of complete and utter bollocks wrapped up in typical left-wing socialist exaggeration.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 May 08 - 04:35 PM

If Hamas declared today they would stop all rockets and attacks and recognize Israel's right to exist immediately, this would all end fast. Israel would in turn stop attacks and enter into peace negotiations. Economic relations would follow. Israel has no interest in fostering the kind of hostilities coming from Gaza. The will has to be there on both sides - not one side.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 26 May 08 - 04:15 PM

But Israel is completely unreasonable! What else could you call the siege of the   city of Gaza for over a year.

The intensive bombing and shelling of civilians in their homes and apartment blocks.

The unleashing of assassination squads across the West Bank.

The confinement by the Israeli army of seriously ill and dying civilian patients in Gaza when they need urgent medical treatment elsewhere.

The demolition of Palestinian homes by the thousand.

The illegal occupation of the West Bank and its settlement by armed fanatical zionist paramilitaries one of whom shot dead over 40 muslim worshippers some years ago near Hebron.

And we wont forget the monstrous bombing of Lebanon which destroyed thousands of homes,flattened apartment blocks,massacred convoys of fleeing civilians, wrecked hospitals and bridges and so on.

Unreasonable...Nobel peace prize winner Jimmy Carter thinks Israel 's siege of Gaza is a war crime and it is one of many committed by Israel.
ALBERT

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 08 - 04:13 PM

Back to you, G of E. Shalom aleichem.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 26 May 08 - 03:50 PM

"Don't start with facts, bobad. The only facts allowed on this thread are facts that make Israel look like it is completely unreasonable."

I was just thinking what an oxymoron the title of this thread is.

I've had about as much as I can stand in this forum. I'll spend my time working for peace, not arguing with the zealots of this forum.

Shalom. Saalam. Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:51 PM

By your consent, perhaps, David; I don't consent.
BTW, I notice that you are still a Guest after posting here for years. If you would register, I could then PM you with this purely personal answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:48 PM

"ELECTRONIC INTIFADA" - definitely no bias in that webpage!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Amos
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:28 PM

Gee- what a lot of ad hominem argumentum.

I think T is right when he points out that on the scale of things, Darfur surely outweighs Gaza as a humanitarian crisis and a crime against the species, by the species.

Oh, and speaking of land acquired through military force, I seem to recall places with funny names like Florida, Oklahoma, Texas....




A

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:20 PM

But surely by common consent the worst president ever is the current president G Bush?

david

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:14 PM

Guest David: My question was purely rhetorical. Mr. Carter's comments have zero impact on me. As I mentioned in a previous post, he is the worst president in my lifetime (going back to FDR), and has become the worst ex-president in history, having inserted himself into US foreign policy, or any policy, unbidden.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:12 PM

"A little detail you overlooked that must have slipped your mind, guest David, is rockets, David, being fired from Gaza at Israel, does that ring a bell, David? Over 830 rockets and 840 mortars fired from Gaza have struck southern Israel since the beginning of the year (January - April 2008)."

Don't start with facts, bobad. The only facts allowed on this thread are facts that make Israel look like it is completely unreasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:10 PM

"For all those who seem to advocate Israeli withdrawal from the Golan to the pre-Six-Day War boundaries on the basis that it is land taken by force of arms. Can you explain why it is therefore perfectly acceptable that Syria is entitled to retain land taken by force of arms?"

The silence on this is kinda deafening isn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:09 PM

Hind Al Ashkar, from the Palestinian refugee camp at Al Nuserat in Gaza died on sunday after being refused permission by the Israeli army to leave Gaza.The Israeli army controls the crossing into and out of Gaza.
She sought permission to leave several times for life saving medical treatment because of a kidney condition but her request was always refused.
With her death the number of Palestinian patients who have died as a direct reult of the siege of Gaza now stands at one hundred and sixty three.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:00 PM

"Former US president Jimmy Carter has branded the Israeli blockade of Gaza as "One of the greatest human rights crimes existing on earth right now".

Well I see that the man's perspective of things remains as faulty as ever. Without any shadow of a doubt the greatest incompetent to hold the Office of the President of the United States of America. Nice man he may be, a leader he most definitely was not, in fact the only reason I believe anyone would follow this man, would be out of some misplaced feeling of curiosity.

"Israeli blockade of Gaza - Greatest human rights crimes existing on earth right now"

OK "Peanut" how's about these? where do they rate on your radar:

- Darfur: 400,000 killed; 2,500,000 displaced. Here is what "Peanut" Carter had to say about it - The United States is exaggerating when it described the Darfur conflict as "genocide," former US president Jimmy Carter has said, warning that the use of the term was legally inaccurate and "unhelpful". This (Darfur) by the bye was what that other useless, ineffectual chatterer Kofi Annan described as, "The gravest humanitarian crisis facing the world today", I think that was back in 2003 - Still haven't managed to do anything about it.

- Tibet: Back in 1980, Jimmy Carter led the boycott of the Moscow Olympics in protest against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. But when asked if he supported a boycott over Chinese aggression in Tibet, he replied:

"That was a totally different experience in 1980, when the Soviet Union had brutally invaded and killed thousands and thousands of people," he said, rejecting the idea of boycotting the Beijing games to protest China's crackdown in Tibet.

He did not address whether just the opening ceremonies should be boycotted. China invaded Tibet on March 10, 1959. According to Tibetan sources, since then 87,000 people have been died. China has carried out a policy to destroy Tibetan culture through destroying Tibetan cultural/religious centers, transplanting millions of ethnic Chinese there, brutally repressing opposition, and forcing into exile the Tibetan leader.

- Burma: According to Carter - "Western nations have very little influence, if any, in Myanmar. The two major countries that do have an influence are India and China. And China is philosophically and politically averse to interfering in the internal affairs of any other country - because they don't want anybody to interfere in their internal affairs.

So I don't think that's a possibility. My hope is that eventually, the sooner the better, the military regime in Myanmar will see the advantage to themselves to open up the society to more freedom."

Now to anyone with any sense of perspective Darfur, Tibet, Burma and Zimbabwe rank way ahead of Gaza in terms of humanitarian concerns for the international community. So why did "Peanut" head for the Middle-East at the particular time that he did. Basically to muddy the water and ruin whatever chances of advancing the situation being explored by the current US Administration. It is not the first time that he has done this, his inept "meddling" in North Korea during the Clinton Administration was at odds with what Clinton actually warranted him to do; the US got suckered into an aid programme while North Korea developed its nuclear weapon. Iran is now the problem it is because of Carter's incompetence.