BS: brexit matters

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 09:14 AM

"Even as armchair warriors"

Speak for yourself. I am active in my local community socially, culturally and economically and attend public meetings, hustings, planning committee meetings and talk to local councillors, engage with the town council and frequently write to my MP.

So there.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 08:42 AM

I can only repeat what I said on 07 Sep 17 at 09:31 AM

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

And before anyone says anything about dreams vs reality remember that none of us are doing anything whatsoever to improve the situation by posting on here. Even as armchair warriors, posting on an obscure forum of interest only to a small minority, we are way down the food chain. We are neither informing anyone of anything new nor improving anyone's lot. At least we can be honest and say what we would like to see.

Pretty much like folk singers perfoming protest songs...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 08:16 AM

My point is the global village only exists as a utopian dream. You can see the reality each time you update the news.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 08:05 AM

All well and good until your village has something that my village wants.

My village IS your village. You seem to have missed the point of the phrase "We are now a global village". Of course when the Phenglions from Betelgeuse turn up we may have a different set of problems...

Not sure what your point is about "the only grown up thing" is. I did say we should have grown up enough . Not that we have.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 07:28 AM

"We are now a global village" All well and good until your village has something that my village wants.
Resource wars are only just beginning while opposing sides joust for position.
The only thing "grown up" about it is that the biggest bully aims to take all!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 07:10 AM

""Freedom of movement" was a parasitic economic policy."

No it wasn't. One example: It enabled a seamless exchange of skills and expertise at the highest levels of scientific research and development and gave the UK a competitive edge when developing new technologies.

That's one huge advantage being pissed away.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 07:10 AM

If I want to leave, I have to agree to pay them £300-plus to remove the bulk tank.

Perfectly reasonable.
What equivalent expense will the EU incur when we leave?

If we were a net beneficiary, would they be demanding to pay us money before negotiating trade?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 06:38 AM

We are now a global village. The worlds resources are limited and should be used to their best advantage globally. This includes labour. Borders and boundaries were created by men in a time when we needed to defend our own resources. We should have grown up enough to realise that we now need to pool them. Sadly, judging from attitudes on here and elsewhere, that does not seem to have happened. I doubt it will in my lifetime and as long as people maintain their selfish parochial attitudes I have fears it ever will. :-(

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 06:11 AM

The social consequences were never even contemplated.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 06:07 AM

"Freedom of movement" was a parasitic economic policy.

What do you not understand about that? "To make us more competitive in the global economy!"......Mr A Blair (Labour)

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 05:43 AM

"Steve Shaw wrote: It is not about tit-for-tat
But it does seem to be about tit for tat, doesn't it?

You're leaving so you get nothing."

What I meant is that being in the EU is not necessarily about getting a return pound for pound monetarily or in material goods. It's more about being in a bloc of nations that share similar ideals in terms of human rights, democracy and the rule of law and with whom we can freely trade and enjoy freedom of movement. Not saying that a lot hasn't gone pear-shaped, but that's the idea. And during our membership we have embraced almost all EU laws with very little dispute. In the amended words of Joni, many of us won't realise what we had 'til it's gone.

Had a letter from Calor Gas yesterday containing my renewed contract. If I want to leave, I have to agree to pay them £300-plus to remove the bulk tank. I don't like it, but If I ever do leave (unlikely as it happens) I have to stump up, don't I? After all, I did agree to it. No unseemly squabbling, as we're seeing Davis and his sorry ilk engaging in.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 05:40 AM

Mr Parsons. Well Done Sir!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 05:34 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 05:30 PM

The EU wants the money they think we should be paying.
No, they appear to have picked a nice round figure out of thin air.
If you have good reason to dispute the amount they're asking for, let's be having it, preferably without the little Englander hubris.
If they won't tell the UK how this figure has been arrived at, how can we dispute it, either in total or line by line?

And it's perfectly right that they want a financial settlement resolved before discussing trade arrangements. Why would any rational negotiator want those two issues enmeshed?
Maybe we should agree the payment in order to get things moving, and then re-negotiate it later. But better yet, let's get on with things.
The EU may not want the two items enmeshed, but they need to take account of their own instructions.
According to European Council (Art. 50) guidelines for Brexit negotiations "2. Negotiations under Article 50 TEU will be conducted in transparency and as a single package. In accordance with the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, individual items cannot be settled separately."

So, by their own rules, set out at the start of the process, we are not able to agree (and be bound by)their claim for an 'exit payment' at this point in the negotiations.

I do like your line Why would any rational negotiator want those two issues enmeshed? as I have made clear above that it is the EU that has enmeshed the two, and so, are being described by you as irrational!

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 03:33 AM

"that's probably when I first became an internationalist..."
When I first moved to Manchester one of the cinemas had just started an Ingmar Bergman season - I saw every one of them (sometimes two a day) - have been a manic depressive ever since!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 07:24 PM

I caught the end and will watch the whole thing on catch-up.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 07:21 PM

When I was 13 I'd stay up late for BBC2's European movies... 😜

that's probably when I first became an internationalist...

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 06:25 PM

The chance would be a fine thing.

Is no one watching BBC 4 right now?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 06:23 PM

I wouldn't mind some tit for tat... i've got plenty of tat cluttering up the house i want rid of...
but not enough tit...

I must say i do prefer european tit to British... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 06:18 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: It is not about tit-for-tat

But it does seem to be about tit for tat, doesn't it?

You're leaving so you get nothing.

Tit for tat.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 06:10 PM

"Well in our 40 years of membership we have contributed towards all sorts of Hardware Projects like actual buildings and real estate. Are we to walk away from these with nothing?"

This remark betrays the fact that you have no understanding of the mutual benefits of our forty-year membership. It is not about tit-for-tat. It's about being part of a union that works to the mutual benefit of all the members. That means that the richer members contribute more, but, in return, they benefit more than they would have done had they been outside. Germany is the single biggest contributor to the EU, and, is also, by a country mile, the most prosperous member. Go bloody figure.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 05:58 PM

Well in our 40 years of membership we have contributed towards all sorts of Hardware Projects like actual buildings and real estate. Are we to walk away from these with nothing?

In most divorces she gets the CDs and he gets the player. The house is sold and the money split. He pays her money but she brings up the kids. The pot is divided. The EU seems to be suggesting that we leave with nothing and give away all the money.

I assume that you approve of this.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 05:30 PM

The EU wants the money they think we should be paying. If you have good reason to dispute the amount they're asking for, let's be having it, preferably without the little Englander hubris.

And it's perfectly right that they want a financial settlement resolved before discussing trade arrangements. Why would any rational negotiator want those two issues enmeshed? The trouble with people like you and Teribus is that you still seem to think that England rules the bloody waves. Well you have a very rude shock awaiting.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 05:30 PM

Stan - I don't trust your over optimism.. and I'm sure your counterparts may be a tadge over pessimistic...

so where and how do we plot a sensible median line....?????????

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 04:51 PM

The bottom line is, the EU wants our money. £11 billion a year will take some replacing. Germany already coughs up a lot. France won't want to increase it's contribution. Greece, Italy and Spain can't afford to pay more.

I know we get a part of the £11 billion back but there will be a lot of sticky EU fingers with nothing to grab.

They want our money. That is what the 'Divorce Bill' is all about. It's an attempt to get our money first so that money is out of the equation before they talk about a trade deal. They don't want us to be able to use our money as a bargaining tool.

If they stick to that we could well crash out without a deal in 2019. Without a deal we can do very well in the long term. Do you know how much food prices are inflated because of EU tariffs?

To be honest I can't put a figure on it myself but my understanding is that we will be a lot better off after leaving.

The Japanese car factories are already better off from the devaluation of the £. Their profits will probably remain viable trading on world trade rates.

The doom and gloom all comes from people who did not want us to leave. So far all doomy gloomy forecasts have been proven false. You'll still be able to take your foreign breaks. They'll still want our money. Chill.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 03:54 PM

Don't delude yourself, Bill. The EU will do very nicely thank you without us, and they know that a shabby, watery compromise will make the other 27 very unhappy. In other words, we're stuffed, and, once out, we're going to find that that good old Empire of ours is no longer there for us to exploit. I have to go - more later.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 03:47 PM

I'll be watching the whole match on me iPhone, Mike. If you wear a very large pink carnation and wave a copy of The Guardian over your head every time a camera gets anywhere near you, I'll know it's you!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 02:57 PM

"the actual rich in England are a very small number."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-divided-society-social-mobility-commission-alan-milburn-a7811386.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 02:53 PM

I think our "political" representatives would love to "fudge" it, whatever that means, but they know for certain that if they do the electorate will not forgive them at the ballot box next time round.

I think the EU will attempt to string things out and the end result of that will be the "No deal" option in March 2019 - the UK will leave the EU, Customs Union and Single Market and the EU will have lost one of it's best customers inside the market and their second biggest net contributor.

The next round of talks to see how things progress after that will be driven by what Germany industry wants and Juncker and Bernier will be told to keep their mouths shut.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: MikeL2
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 02:40 PM

Hi Steve

<" I think we're going to see brexit fudged out of existence. ">

I fear that you are right.

I voted to leave for what I think are good reasons but I don't believe that our political representatives don't seem capable to deliver.

Cheers
Mike

Ps On a lighter note - Got tickets for Man City v Liverpool on Saturday. Should be exciting to watch.

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 02:36 PM

the actual rich in England are a very small number.
they really bugger up this country though.
i suppose, we'll get all that bollocks about how they pay the majority of the income tax.
but that's only because the sods have kept incomes so low.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 01:35 PM

Keith, on this side 'brexit matters' is a double entendre.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 11:56 AM

Sigh - still trolling Ake
"you hate rich people don't you?"
Perhaps he lives in part of teh world that Mad Maggie cut adrift during her reign of terror
It's always those who have who confuse natural justice with class envy
Go look at the staedily growing gap between those who have and those who need
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 11:30 AM

Unregulated "Freedom of movement within the EU" was a parasitic economic policy designed to use poorer countries from Eastern Europe to make Western developed nations more competitive. It had the added ingredient of keeping wage rates here low and saving money on real re-training programmes.
It was a huge disgusting con and anti Socialist in every way imaginable.
No wonder then that it is cheered by the faux socialists on this forum. Jim says to his credit that it is the best bad option, but he is wrong, the best option is to walk away and watch Europe beg for a deal. The remoaners are Europe's fifth column and should be treated as such.
Corbyn argued against the EU all his political life he now ditches his principles in favour of the chance of transient power.
My advice to Mr Corbyn is watch your back, the people who tried to knife openly are now standing immediately behind you.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 11:28 AM

Brazil, Russia, India and China have consistently given the best returns on shares over the past few years as you know if you studied the Stock markets.

I somehow doubt if your little Englander approach extends to not making a bob or three out of investment in these markets.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 11:17 AM

The problem with shares?

Hate to burst the bubbles of all the usual moaners but if any of you are retired and are receiving pensions from your former employment as opposed to a State Pension, it is the investment of your company or unions pension fund in shares that actually pays your pension. In it's day the NUM were one of the Stock exchanges biggest investors.

But I forgot Big Al, your rather poorly placed - you hate rich people don't you? (You've stated that in previous contributions) So your own prejudice would hold you back.

"Brazil, China and India spring to mind." - The workings of your mind Raggy? Never noticed any evidence of it ever working at all based on what you post.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 11:13 AM

"you lend your money to rich people"
Sort of like the Banks, only with shares you get interest and the more you have the more you get
"There's nothing surer,
The rich get rich and the poor get poorer
In the meantime, in-between time
Ain't we got fun"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 10:36 AM

the problem with shares.....you lend your money to rich people - as i understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 10:32 AM

I wonder where the companies are that Teri-towelling holds shares in.

Brazil, China and India spring to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 09:35 AM

Jean-Claude Juncker has voiced concern about the "stability and accountability" of David Davis and his political mandate to conduct Brexit talks, saying that Davis's "apparent lack of involvement" in talks "risked jeopardising the success of the negotiations". They're laughing at us, aren't they?

Business not jittery? So how come some bosses of the UK's biggest companies have refused to sign a letter put out by May asking them to give her public support for her approach to brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 09:31 AM

How can a country have an opinion Keith? I am sure that there are plenty of individuals who share my views.

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 09:13 AM

Dave,
Immigration restrictions are commonplace. We should be working on improving that situation so there is true international freedom of labour movement.

Your opinion is not shared by any country I can think of.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 08:38 AM

"my shares have increased in value by 22.26%"
Dong-ding, I'm on the bus
Just been watching the BREXIT CIRCUS
The Government are intending to draw on laws brought in by Henry VIII to avoid having to discuss aspects of the withdrawal in Parliament
Jim Carrolll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 07:56 AM

U.K. growth is less than half that of the Eurozone. Inflation is far outstripping the ability of "business" to keep pace via pay increases. Your shares? Good for you!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 07:56 AM

Okay mighty one! What are you going to DO about Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 07:55 AM

Teribus - as a bloke who stopped formally studying economics 35 years ago,
I'd suggest the level of jitters depends on the nature of the business...???

.. and make the most celebrating your shares value today... who on earth knows what they may be be worth in a post brexit future...?????

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 07:22 AM

Business jittery?

Don't think so in the 20 months since my shares have increased in value by 22.26%. UK Manufacturing at a three year high.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 06:37 AM

"I think it's possible Brexit might not happen"
I sincerely hope it doesn't, for the sake of those who will be effected adversely (if they have not been already)
I remember being in a conference full of ballad enthusiasts from all over the world (including Britain) who universally condemn it.
I am no great fan of the EU, as it stands - it is no more than an assembly of capitalist states attempting to do the best (under the system) for their people - what happened to Greece underlined its dangers and weaknesses.
However, while the present system remains, it is, as Churchill once said about Capitalism, "the best we've got until something else comes along".
It isolationism being aimed at now has brought out the worst aspects of of the system we live under - racism being to the fore.
The same applies to Trump's America with its Klan marches and Mexican wall - methods of 'divide and conquor' all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 05:07 AM

I think it's possible Brexit might not happen. It's obvious two years is not long enough to negotiate a withdrawal without serious damage to the economy. Business is very jittery about the consequences about the ending of free movement of people as it's about to decimate the workforce. Labour and the tories could have restricted immigration if they wanted to, they chose not to.

Also, this government's attitude to EU nationals living here is reprehensible. I have friends who are very concerned about the future and very aware of the hostility directed toward them by the nastier members of our society. These are people's lives.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 04:56 AM

I think that more and more people are seeing what many of us knew from the outset, that brexit is a disaster in waiting. The party leaders are dragging their feet, pretending that they're somehow defending democracy (oh, and hanging on to those meal-tickets, Jim) by sticking to the pro-brexit line. I think that will change, at least among non-Tories, as we watch that arch-buffoon Davis continue to screw up and get laughed at by the EU big knobs, who are having a great time now that they realise that our leaving is going to destroy us but will leave them almost untouched. No skin off their noses if we don't "get a deal." The Tories can't change their position because of their backbenchers, May's paralysis and the spectre of a UKIP resurgence, but I think Labour can. We've already seen the call for retained membership of the single market and customs union during a transitional phase. I think we're going to see brexit fudged out of existence.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 04:51 AM

Sadly you are right, Keith. Immigration restrictions are commonplace. We should be working on improving that situation so there is true international freedom of labour movement. We are now a global village and anyone should be able to work where they are most needed.

DtG