Fretted Fiddles

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 07:32 AM

I wouldn't give up too easily GUEST, Highway 50 - cut out the middle man, and try contacting the link I gave in the opening thread, to Peter, who later posted on this thread. When I ordered mine it turned up promptly, and it seems to work pretty well.

As John in Kansas says, you have to finger on the fret rather than below it, unlike guitars etc, but, as a total novice with a fiddle, I find it seems to be easier to get a clean note.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 06:51 AM

This seems to be a thread I missed early on, but perhaps a comment is still worthwhile(?).

With frets on a fiddle, it really isn't necessary to finger "behind the fret" as one would on most other instruments. For most fretted instruments, you pluck once and there is no further input to the string, so it's desirable to have the string undamped, to "ring" with as much sustain as possible. Increasing the "sustain" or "after ring" quite probably was a major reason for adding frets to the banjo.

While "beginner" or otherwise less accomplished players might have appreciated the easier "finding the spot" with the frets, the real reason for frets on the banjo was to MAKE IT LOUDER (As if it needed it.) - i.e. to make each note last a bit longer and get rid of the "plink-plink" characteristic sound of the (primitive) unfretted banjo.

More modern banjos, fretted or unfretted have been pushed toward improving the sustain and "tone quality," so the difference between fretted and unfretted probably is less apparent than when frets first began to be used a lot.

With a fiddle, you have a continuous and sustained "power input" to the string from the bow, so the damping that comes from holding the string down with a "squishy finger" really doesn't matter much. Fingering directly on top of a fret should give almost exactly the same result as fingering behind the fret.

While it's not possible to be sure from the pictures linked here, older but similar "clip on fretboards" that I've seen (very rarely) had frets much too low/small to effectively be called frets in the usual sense of the word, and provided only a "center" for the finger on the string. In the very few cases where I've talked to anyone who was using one, they were fingering directly on the "bump miscalled a fret" and were not actually "fretting" the string in any usual sense.

Whether it's a helpful learning tool, or an impediment to learning, was - and presumedly is still - much debated. I've only seen it used by beginners, none of whom to my knowledged progressed very far, but then a lot of fiddle beginners don't get very far regardless of the learning/teaching methods used.

John

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:26 AM

MIA ?

missing in action ?

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: GUEST,Highway 50
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:42 AM

I just got a message from the store I just bought my fiddle fretter from and they told me the manufacturer is MIA. i guess that's that.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 04:50 PM

LOL, Malcolm. But let me tell you, that was NOT my teacher's attitude.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 04:06 PM

But I'm sure that there were people playing and teaching fretless banjos who would have felt precisely the same about frets being introduced and vandalising their beloved instrument. And with more justice too, because nowadays fretless banjos are few and far between - and I don't think there is any likelihood of that happening to unfretted fidles.

Let a hundred flowers bloom...

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 03:37 PM

And, my 'violin' teacher was appalled at anything! Geared tuners, fine tuners, steel strings, fiddle music in general. I can't even imagine what she would have to say about carbon fiber bows, light up bows, electric violins......I'm sure she is spinning in her grave.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 03:12 PM

Nice to see the "maker" in here. While the fretted may be a good idea for some adults, I would be concerned about a child getting used to using them, thus NOT training their ear.

My early violin teachers would have been appalled at the thought of frets, no offence, Peter. They might be useful for a very young child, such as my almost 4yr old grandson who wants to hear a tune as soon as he picks up his fiddle but doesn't quite have the patience for how to do that, yet. He does have a good ear, though, so I think we'll stick with the tried and true learn by ear.

McGrath, I look forward to your posting after you've had a chance to try it out.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 02:51 PM

I have to jump in here and say something as I am the one who makes the Fiddle Fretter. I was first a guitarist then I took up piano, banjo, mandolin. It was only a few years ago I had a stab at the fiddle. I really just wanted to be able to play a few tunes but I found it painfull to hear those "slightly out of tune notes" (and sometimes not so slightly). I had heard of Fretted fiddles but couldn't find anyone who made them. SO I did a lot of measuring cutting, sawing etc and installed mandolin Frets on my violin. My playing improved dramatically and I was happy with the result. My dear wife looked at what I had done to my violin and said " Why did you hack your fiddle to pieces? Could you not just stick something on that would have the same effect without damaging the instrument? Ah the wisdom of women!
That is when I developed the Fiddle Fretter.
It is not everyone's cup of tea but it effectively frets your violin.
"Permanent" Fretted violins can be obtained from Wood Violins in California.      www.frettedfiddle.com

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 07:05 AM

Here's a site I found which looks as if it could be pretty useful for learning the ropes. Or rather, learning the strings and the hairs. World Fiddle Music

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: Stewart
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 06:41 PM

Vibrato?
Don't fret it,
just relax and
let it come naturally.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 05:59 PM

Vibrato? Something to endure rather than to encourage I feel, either in playing or singing. As with all rules there are of course some exceptions. Some.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: Grab
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 08:40 AM

What about vibrato?

I quit learning violin as a kid because my left arm simply would *not* do vibrato, and it was required for grade 6. My wrist/elbow just wouldn't do it, and after 6 months+ of hassle and getting nowhere, all the fun had gone out of playing and I quit.

Now I fake it with a rock-guitar-style vibrato instead, moving my finger side-to-side instead of moving my hand along the fingerboard from the elbow or wrist. It doesn't sound the same but it's good enough for folk, and it's something that I *can* do.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: Stewart
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 05:07 PM

Yes, it's all in the bowing!

The fingering is mostly mechanical
once your fingers learn where to go.
But where the bow hair meets the string,
that's where the sound comes from (good or bad).

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 11:10 AM

Mcgrath,yes the bowing is very important,there are a number of books,that help with traditional styles.Bowing styles of Munster fiddle players,by David Lyth.
How to Play FolkFiddle by GeoffBowen,are two.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 11:02 AM

A few months back I restrung a ukelele and tuned it in a fiddle/mandolin tuning, and have been playing around with it. It's great fun to play. (Someone here suggested I call it a mandolele.)

I just checked and found it is exactly the same scale length as a fiddle - which explains why, when I picked up the fiddle the other day I found my fingers seemed to be in pretty well the right place. I think the main interest with the Fiddle Fretter, when it comes, will be to find whether I prefer the sound, in line with that quote I gave earlier from the Oxford Companion to Music about frets - "they exist on viols and lutes in order to give the strings, when 'stopped', the resonance of open strings, i.e.to obviate the 'softening effect of the finger tips."

The big stumbling block for fiddling surely isn't really so much the intonation, even without frets, it's use of the bow.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: nickp
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 07:03 AM

Further to BanjoRay's comments. I too have a fiddle fretted by our mutual friend. I also have an unfretted one. The fretted one has its uses and may well be helpful to learners. However, as a mandolin player I had hoped it would be of more use to me but the scale length is slightly different and my finers don't go down as accurately as I would like. Interesting though.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: Art Thieme
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 12:50 AM

Gordon Bok plays his Cellamba (spelling?)a fretted cello of sorts) with good effect. It's on several of his recordings.

Art Thieme (the standard violin has nothing to fret about! ;-)

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 07:06 PM

Grab-
I tried machine pegs, many years ago; I found that the added weight at the tuning head definitely made the instrument less comfortable to play. And, believe me, I like to make things as easy as possible (like fine tuners on all the strings).

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: Grab
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 04:01 PM

Dick, as far as I can tell, the main reason for friction pegs is the inability of violin-makers (and violinists, to be fair) to imagine that improvement on Stradivarius is possible. :-(

Re fretting a violin, you could maybe try the old-fashioned fretting method of tying gut strings round the neck as a fret. No need for a new instrument.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 03:44 PM

Frets makes for a different instrument, true enough. On the other hand you could say precisely the same in respect of the banjo. Or the trumpet, which exists in both slide and valve form.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 03:28 PM

The violin is like the trombone,in that, to play in tune you have to listen to the sound you make and correct it very quickly if you are out of tune,you have to be able to hear whether you are flat or sharp.
It requires completely differnt learning skills to a fretted or fixed note instrument.
Fiddlers can also play quarter notes[notes between say g#and A]if you put frets on a fiddle ,this will be lost,fiddle players can also play in mean as well as equal temperament, [important for early music]this too will be lost if you fret your fiddle,fretted instruments are designed with equal temperament in mind[that is how I understand it].
in my opinion if you cant play in tune on a fiddle,you need to get a fiddle teacher to spend hours developing your ear,or play a lot with a fixed note instrument.
Vibrato is debatable,it is a matter of taste in traditional music,personally I like it if it is not overused.but to have an istrument that limits you from using it,would not suit me at all.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 03:57 PM

I looked up "frets" in The Oxford Companion to music and it made an interesting point about frets:

"It must not be assumed that the object of frets is merely to aid incompetent performers to find their notes; they exist on viols and lutes in order to give the strings, when 'stopped', the resonance of open strings, i.e.to obviate the 'softening effect of the finger tips."

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 09:03 AM

I wouldn't fret about it.

(Sorry, Da Debbil made me do it!)

Looking at that C16 engraving on that Wiki page reveals that the instrument as drawn had very square shoulders...

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 08:30 AM

I love my machine gears. Maggie seldom goes out of tune, and is very easy to get back IN tune when she does. I've not noticed the weight being a problem. Changing strings was a bugger til I rigged a ratchet string winder. Snap On, 13 mm socket I think.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: BanjoRay
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 07:29 AM

A friend of mine from Devon, who's also a banjo player, has put frets on his fiddle, and it's definitely improved his intonation. I suspect it's made him addicted to the frets, so he'd have difficulty playing another fiddle. He seems to manage slides ok - they're obviously not as clean as a fretless would be, but his Old Time fiddling sounds fine.
Ray

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 06:38 AM

I decided for £15 it was worth having a go, so I've put in an order. I've been playing with frets all my life, so I think I've got more chance of getting a smattering of fiddle-playing with this. And I note that the Fiddle Fretter "can easily be removed anytime and put back on anytime."

I'll report back in a few weeks when it's reached me and I've had a go with it.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 10:49 PM

fiddle machine pegs have been around for a long long time. They're not popular because they're heavier than friction egs, and tend to unbalance the instrument.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: open mike
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 10:33 PM

speaking of violin innovations, Sorcha has a fiddle with machine tuners rather than the pressure-fit pegs.

here is a similar set of tuners on a viola
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977049067



here is a page i found which searching for a picture...
http://www.fretlessfingerguides.com/violin_tuner.html
there is a sound file that helps you hear the notes
that the 4 fiddle strings should be tuned to.. I do not
know what to do to help anyone who cannot tell if their
strings match those notes...

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 10:31 PM

i saw an electric violin with frets
in a guitarshop window in Denmark St
about 15 years ago

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 10:12 PM

White-Out - (stationary supply store) the liquid PEN (rappido-tube) is an outstanding marker for early violin students...it even leaves a small ridge to help younger, soft fingers...like a thread. The wood is not marred

As the student progresses - do not re-mark....for a time they will have a gradually deminishing set of "trainer wheels."

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 09:51 PM

Viols have sloping shoulders, violins have 90 degree ones. Frets aren't the issue with viols.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: sapper82
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 05:12 PM

Fretted fiddle? Thought they were called Viols.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 05:03 PM

No, as I said, but I'd sure like to try one

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 04:55 PM

McGrath-
Fretless banjos are fine-but it's hard to play along with anything except a fiddle.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 04:37 PM

But my question wasn't so much "Does it sound like a good idea?", but rather, "Has anyone out there ever played one of them? - and how did it go?"

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 03:38 PM

So why did people stop playing fretless banjos?

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 03:38 PM

I saw one on TV once, always wanted to get my hands on one. I can't see that it would be of much value really. And, there is the thing that a violin is a 'true' chromatic and diatonic instrument. ALL the notes are on there. For instance, an F## isn't quite a G.

Always said I could play a mando but the frets get in the way.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 03:32 PM

When I started playing the violin twenty something years ago my teacher put 2 coloured dots on the finger board, one where my first finger should go and one where my third finger should go. I seem to remember that I only had these dots for about 3 or 4 months....not long in the overall scheme of things. This worked because I could feel the dots, I didn't have to be able to see them.

I can't see how a fretted fiddle would work. Would it not be detrimental to the learner to have frets and then for them to be taken away?

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: Stewart
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 03:23 PM

Gregg B has said it very well.
You need to train your fingers to go where your ears recognize the right intonation. Fiddles are entirely chromatic, where guitars and other fretted instruments are not. Small adjustments in your fingers allow you to play in any key. Learning to play a fiddle with frets will not teach you how to do this. It does require a good ear, and the ear can be trained. And without frets you can do all those neat slides that make the fiddle more like the human voice.

"What about vibrato?"
Don't worry about it. It isn't necessary with traditional fiddling. It may develop in time, it may come naturally, but it's not worth worrying about.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: Greg B
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 03:04 PM

It seems to me that the argument that it will help beginners
learn correct intonation (so that they can subsequently go on
to get rid of the 'training wheels') doesn't quite work.

When you play a fretted instrument, you press down on the string
behind, not on, the fret. You can do this rather sloppily
as well, so long as you mash the string down.

Without frets, you press very precisely and consistently at the
precise point on the fingerboard which produces the desired tone.
If you're at the wrong place--- wrong tone. If you aren't square
or fret in any kind of soft fashion you can dull the sound.

For me, moving from a fretted to a fretless banjo wasn't just a
matter of putting my fingers where I always did--- I had to adjust
the position a bit. And I had to learn to hear the intonation
in order to learn what was correct.

That, to me, seems to be the key thing--- hearing the intonation.
The fiddle frets might help with that, but at the expense of training
the fingers to go down further towards the peg-head than they're
supposed to and to be rather imprecise besides. So the student
trained with frets may know he or she sounds like hell without
them, but may have quite a learning curve to gain back what is
lost, what with retraining all those brain cells and nerves to
do something very different without the frets.

P.S.: What about vibrato?

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 02:43 PM

The point with this one is that you don't look any more than you would playing a mandolin or a banjo with the same tuning as a fiddle.

Subject: RE: Fretted Fiddles
From: open mike
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 02:32 PM

some beginning fiddlers use colored tape to mark the finger placement.
then they have to look at the fingerboard to find them...seems akward
(almost as much as the spelling of that word) Awquird?

Subject: Fretted Fiddles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 02:11 PM

Any ever tried one of these? - Fiddle Fretter?

The FIDDLE FRETTER was developed to help students learn the early stages of violin playing. This is a critical time when many "give up" this difficult instrument due to frustration when trying to achieve the correct notes on the fingerboard. It also helps musicians who may already play instruments like the guitar or mandolin and have already developed an ear for music. For those players it is disheartening to be continually making flat & sharp notes when playing violin.

And also of course for anyone unfortunate enough to be in earshot.

I was having another go at my brother's old fiddle today, and a shortcut to getting some kind of music out of it sounds very tempting.