Sea shanties for fiddle

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 11 Jan 26 - 05:50 PM

“...there are some twenty-seven full-paged chromo-lithographic illustrations, showing Great Eastern, and her Government consort, the Terrible, in every interesting position; the machinery for paying out , bringing back, and splicing the cable the lowering of buoys, and, in fact, every circumstance of interest or amusement in the expedition; for, in the latter light, we must regard the plate illustrative of weighing the anchor of the monster ship, with the fiddler on the capstan head inspiring the straining throng to active duty….”
[Review of Russell's Atlantic Telegraph, The Albion, 1866]

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 11 Jan 26 - 05:28 PM

Another from the Great Eastern: Origin: The Girl I Left Behind Me

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 25 - 02:56 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W0OipeVVh0 program about shanties

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 23 Sep 25 - 01:53 AM

Litton/Litten table of contents here: Tune Add(& Origins): Bacon and Greens.

Long repost from one of the closed threads:

Huntington, Gale. William Litten's Fiddle Tunes: 1800 – 1802, Vineyard Haven, Mass.: Hines Point Publishers, 1977.

“"William Litton’s Fiddle Tunes 1800-1802" ~ extracts from the introduction by Gale Huntington, pages 6 & 7

This collection of fiddle tunes was made by William Litten at sea on a vessel, or on two different vessels, of the British India fleet in the years 1800, 1801, and 1802.

Everything that we know about the man is from disjointed material on the inside front and back covers of the manuscript book and from scraps of information on the pages of the book itself and from the music. The notes in the text are difficult to decipher because Litten’s handwriting and spelling are both very bad, and in places the paper has bled. On the other hand the tunes themselves were transcribed without too much difficulty, for Litten was a good musician.

The manuscript is in the library of the Dukes County Historical Society* in Edgartown, Massachusetts, on the Island of Martha’s Vineyard.

Here are some of the facts that we can gather from the scattered notes. The British India fleet sailed from England May 27th, 1800, and arrived in China February 10th, 1801.

(Note: the author in correspondence with ~ John Compston, E.D., D. Litt. of Australian National University, says that the fleet visited Australia and may have made other stops during the passage.)

The fleet consisted of sixteen war vessels. The names of the vessels and of six of the captains of them are listed on the inside back cover of the book. ~ We can not be sure which ship Litten was on on the voyage out, but on the return voyage he was evidently on H.M.S. Gorgon, for he mentions a stop of that vessel at St. Helena on June 3rd, 1802. Litten’s duty was that of ship’s musician. At that time there was no chanteying on British war vessels, for chanteying was considered much too undignified for His Majesty’s service. Instead of a chanteyman all war vessels of any size carried and official fiddle player whose music helped to lighten some of the heavier work. A little after Litten’s time the cornet began to compete with the fiddle.
~
The manuscript was brought home to the Vineyard by Allen Coffin of Edgartown. His name appears on the inside cover of the book. Allen Coffin must surely have been younger than Litten. But they may have been shipmates, if not on that voyage perhaps on a later one. Coffin was born in 1788. But many boys did go to sea at twelve or thirteen in those days, and many American were serving in the British navy, usually because they had been pressed into the service.

James Coffin, Allen’s father, had been a seaman and then a shipmaster. But by 1800 he had retired from the sea and was an Edgartown merchant and a man of real wealth for the Period. He had a fleet of small merchant vessels that sailed to all parts of the world. Such men as James Coffin often did send their sons to sea at an early age to learn the business.

We cannot be sure that Allen Coffin played the fiddle but he probably did or why would he want Litten’s book? Also there were a great many more fiddle players a hundred and seventy-five years ago than there are today. (1970s) We do know that Allen’s family was a musical one, tow of his daughters played the violin and played it well. It could be just that fact that accounts for the book’s survival.

Allen Coffin is mentioned several times in Jeremiah Pease’s diary for the early years of the 19th century. Jeremiah was a singer and he and Allen were friends. They used to go fishing and eeling through the ice together. Perhaps they made music together too.

But about William Litten we do not know even whether he was English, Scottish, Irish or American. There are some very good Irish tunes in the book and some equally good Scottish and English ones. However Litten did not seem to care too much for the typically Scottish dotted eighth and sixteenth note combination. In fact, some of his Scottish tunes play like Irish versions of them. There are even some almost American tunes in the book. That "almost" is because American fiddle tunes were rare in those days and even some tunes that we think of as American had their origin in the British Isles. # Posted by ceolachan 8 years ago.”
[Boring The Leather (jig)]
*The Martha’s Vineyard Museum

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 22 Sep 25 - 10:45 PM

On some ships, fifers and /or fiddlers were employed in place of chanteymen. There are a number of examples both in documents and illustrations.

One good collection made by such a fiddler is “William Litton’s Fiddle Tunes 1800-1802” ~ extracts from the introduction by Gale Huntington, pages 6 & 7
This collection of fiddle tunes was made by William Litten at sea on a vessel, or on two different vessels, of the British India fleet in the years 1800, 1801, and 1802.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Sep 25 - 11:51 AM

A friend of mine had an old wooden fiddle case with the handle in the middle of the lid rather than on the side. He said that layout was to make it stow nore easily on shipboard. I didn't see how. Does that make sense?

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 20 Sep 25 - 08:38 PM

Here's another. The S.S Great Eastern during the laying of the first transatlantic cable in 1862. 150-180 men, depending on the source, working three capstans:

Lyr Req/Add: Slap Bang, Here We Are Again

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 29 Jun 23 - 05:59 PM

Orpheus will not be joining the chat. Jane's 15-day post history and her first respondent here was good for a chuckle. Might be she just forgot where she left her computer.

All four of the linked songs above were dance & show tunes before they began turning up as capstan & sailor songs. The word "shanty" does not appear in the same sources.

Having a fiddler or fifer on board was an upper/middle management decision when the ship's company was being formed up on dry land. If you were to be the song leader (boatswain &c) the choice was, at least partly, your own. If you were just another shlep on a capstan bar, you did what everybody else did.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 29 Jun 23 - 04:01 PM

'Apparently "Jane of 'ull" was left speechless by the response to what she probably thought was an innocuous question ... !'

In fairness, she asked the question fourteen years ago, she has probably worked something out by now or moved on altogether.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: meself
Date: 29 Jun 23 - 03:46 PM

Apparently "Jane of 'ull" was left speechless by the response to what she probably thought was an innocuous question ... !

No one has mentioned, btw, that Captain Bligh recruited a fiddler for the Bounty, infamously to ensure that the crew would get enough exercise(!), by dancing.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 28 Jun 23 - 11:33 PM

Needs better glossary. There never was an 'official' governing body to define chantey/shanty for real-world maritime usage. Otherwise, salty fiddlers go clear back to Orpheus.

So, if one Googles: “fiddler on the capstan” - one of many returns will be the current Sea Shanty wiki with an image of a ...black fiddler accompanying heaving at the capstan, from The Quid (1832).

Lyr Req: Sailor's Hornpipe
Lyr Add: Moll in the Wad
Origins: Off She Goes
Lyr Add: I Am a Brisk and Sprightly Lad

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 07:48 AM

Another thought

finish with a fast hornpipe that makes everyone smile

Sailors or trumpet.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 05:17 AM

Jane - take care with the key you play them in if you hope other people ( other than yourself ) will sing along. Wrong key - you may find they go too high / low for many singers.

2 dead easy ones - I used to play them for a singing morris side to join in - were drunken sailor and whip jamboree - start with a b note but next note is e - and play in e minor. DG melodeons can then also play along. This key seems to work for most singers.
Enjoy.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: GUEST,crowdercref
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:17 AM

Yup. Fiddles were traditionally held together with water soluble fish paste glue. Nonetheless, the employment of ships fiddlers was established by the time of Boscawen's French Canadian campaign. Admiral Boscawen wrote to his wife telling that memories of the country dances they had enjoyed together in former years were stirred up by the ship's music of the fiddle, fife, and drum. Based in Portsmouth from 1738, Boscawen had courted Frances Evelyn, of St Clare, Kent. They married in Dec. 1742. Boscawen's letter tells us that the music of his (working class) ship's fiddler in about 1755/6 was similar to the country dances tunes he enjoyed presumably from 1738 onwards. The account affirms that this type of music and dance crossed social and class boundaries. Country dance tunes such as Boscawen's Frolic and the Admiral Boscawen's Hornpipe surely refer to the Admiral's military fame, but may also reflect his affinity to the genre.

Inter alia, a Rowlandson cartoon shows a ships fiddler among sailors celebrating the Battle of the Nile of 1798. The role was extant in 1799 when Joseph Emidy was freed from pressed service as a ships fiddler. A painting in the Royal Cornwall museum shows the Great Eastern laying the transatlantic cable in 1866, with a fiddle player seated on the capstain.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 09:07 AM

I have a lovely version of Allan taylor's Roll On The Day, sung by a Dutch Shanty Choir called Together W. FR. with the late great John Wright as lead singer. It is sung in English. There is a lovely fiddle player on it and it worked so well.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: doc.tom
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 08:38 AM

Oh dear - In the Short, Sharp Shanty Project, there's Jackie Oates playing fiddle on A-roving, Banks of Sacramento, Mr. Tapscott, Mr. Stormalong, One More Day, Rowler Bowler, Tommy's Gone Away, and Won't You Go My Way (and we haven't finished yet)! We must be being BAD!!!

Seriously though - if renditions have to be authentic then they have to be sung on board and for work - with maybe some passengers for audience. They need to be understood for what they were, and personally I hope that renditions/recordings don't compromise what they are about (there are some recordings about that completely 'lose it'.

Apart from that, there is no reason not to be creative - after all, the shantymen always were within the restrictions of the job the songs were doing.

TomB

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 07:59 AM

Fiddlers were even press ganged solely for their musical prowess.A freed slave was heard playing classical music and returned to slavery in the navy!

back to top
Joseph Emidy, Acclaimed Teacher and Performer

Those who made a name for themselves in the world of professional music often came from a background of enslavement. One such musician was captured by the Portuguese from the Guinea coast and sold into slavery in Brazil. Around 1795, 'Josh Emede' (as he is called in the ship's records of the Indefatigable) was forced by the British navy to play reels and jigs for the crew. Later known as Joseph Emidy, he settled in Falmouth, a cosmopolitan community at the time. A classical musician, he earned his living as a music teacher, giving lessons for a variety of instruments, including the piano, violin, cello and flute. Emidy's skills as a teacher and concert musician seem to have been in high demand, as requests for his services appeared in Falmouth and Truro newspapers.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Crane Driver
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 07:34 AM

The history of the concertina is one of those contentious topics best avoided in detail, but essentially they were developed largely independently in England and Germany around the 1830s. The English (and later Duet) systems were indeed quite expensive, intended primarily for the drawing room, and at sea would most likely have been owned by officers, whereas the German, which became the Anglo-German or just Anglo, was originally a more 'cheap & cheerful' instrument which would be more within the reach of crew members. There were no doubt many exceptions to this.

Andrew

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 07:17 AM

I'm with Barry Finn. I can't think of any shanties that wouldn't go well with a fiddle.
Here is an imaginary, and probably unlikely, scenario:
(two sailors, one a fiddler with his fiddle, having a little rest on deck)
SAILOR 1(sings, with fiddle) I thought I heard the old man say
Leave her Johnny leave her
SAILOR2 Stop that this instant, don't you know you are not allowed to sing shanties with a fiddle?

Anyway, never mind fiddles. Here is a shanty acompanied by accordion and conga drum, and at the end(do hang on till the last verse) trumpet, clarinet and trombones.
Shallow Brown

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Old Vermin
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 06:06 AM

The story of my wife's paternal grandparents first meeting about 1900 is that she had gone somewhere on Tyneside to take message to one of the men in the family. May have been at Seamen's Mission. There she saw a Norwegian sailor, in his sea-boots, smiling as he played the concertina.

Use of the concertina by seafarers has to be relatively recent. Was it a decade or so after Waterloo that they were developed?

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 03:40 AM

I've a vague recollection of hearing Stan Hugill say that the association of sailors with concertinas was largely a myth, and they weren't very common at sea, because they were relatively expensive, didn't stand up to marine conditions very well, and because of their shape were liable to roll about. However Dan Worrall's research seems to contradict this. Of course by the time Stan was at sea the concertina had already begun to decline in popularity.

In his Preface to Shanties of the Seven Seas he describes his father singing sea songs and shanties, accompanying himself on a button-accordion, so there is a historic precedent for using instrumental accompaniment, for entertainment if not in a working context.

Sailors at sea seem to have played every imaginable type of (portable) instrument. The fiddle was certainly prominent among them.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: GUEST,Katedu
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 11:25 PM

I meant to add that in Peter Cooke's "The Fiddle Tradition of the Shetland Isles" we hear that "...each Greenland ship used to carry a fiddler, sometimes a Southerner, sometimes a Shetlander, to play to the men while at work to enliven them."

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: GUEST,Katedu
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 11:14 PM

Read "The Concertina At Sea: A History of a Naval Icon" by Dan Worrall. There's a lot of great information in the article about concertinas. However, Worrall did a survey by searching Google's digital books written from 1860-1900 (the heyday of concertinas) for "fiddle," "concertina," and "ship." He concluded:

"By far the most common item on board ship in the late 19th
century was the fiddle/violin, which was recorded in nearly
every instance where there is a concertina on board, and in
many more where it is not. The ranking of the fiddle in the
top spot should prove a surprise to no one who has read
much literature of the sea."

In "Shanties from the Seven Seas" Stan Hugill gives several references showing that fiddles (and fifes) were in fact played at the capstan in the early 19th century.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 03:46 PM

De gustibus non disputandum. Most of those you accompany, Steve, are forebitters not shanties. Most of those you don't accomapny, Steve, I think cold be done with fiddle, but if you like 'em without, do 'em without.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: GUEST,Phil Beer
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 03:19 PM

I've just done the entire Tall ships race in the Baltic armed with a cheap Chinese Fiddle which I'd like to report has stood up very well. It has fiddled the ship (Pegasus) into and out of every port. Has been played at sea. Has done a dozen ships concerts and singarounds and has been used to accompany every shanty and sea song I know. I wouldn't have taken any of my more delicate instruments but this one has held up brilliantly!

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 08:56 AM

Generally speaking the shorthaul shanties with a single line and response are more suited to unaccompanied singing and are more effective that way. Even contemporary folkscene performances generally reflect this. Whereas the capstan shanties, heaving shanties, tend to have a stirring lengthy chorus much more suited to even elaborate accompaniment, such as Oyster Band's performance of South Australia. It's far too fast for a shanty anyway, but so what!
Here's a list of shanties I accompany on either melodeon or concertina
Drunken Sailor
Liverpool Judies
Leaving of Liverpool
John Kanaka
Shenandoah
A-Roving
New York Gals
Rio
Blow the Man Down

Unaccompanied
Hogs-Eye Man
General Taylor,
Johnny Come down to Hilo
Leave her Johnny
Whiskey
Blow Boys Blow
Long Time Ago
Stormalong
Paddy Doyle
Santy Anna
Poor Old Horse
Ranzo
Alabama
Sally Brown
Sally Racket
Jaul away Joe etc.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 08:45 AM

Jane-

Just be aware of the history of shantying and fiddling, and then decide what you want to do.

Forebitters from Mystic occasionally use a fiddle for some of their sea songs. And I certainly would welcome one on some of the sea songs that my group Roll & Go does.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 08:01 AM

I think Paddy Doyle's Boots would be a bit tricky.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 06:33 AM

I am with Barry Finn earlier: I can't think of any shanties that wouldn't go well with a fiddle.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 06:05 AM

sailortown, a poem written by C Fox Smith,Written early 20 century,has this verse.
I can hear the gulls a cryingand the cheerful noise
of the concertina playing and a singers voice.
Sailortown[wordsC Fox Smith]music Dick Miles.
can beheard on Around the Harbour town, cd
available from website here

http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Paul Burke
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 01:56 AM

A (German?) sailor playing the concertina is mentioned in one of Q's novels- Sam rowing across Troy harbour to stow the "tea" in the hulk in "Troy Town" I think- which would push the association back to 1888.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 08:24 PM

'squeeze boxes are no more traditional for sea songs than any other instrument.'
Not sure about that, Steve. My friend the distinguished folklorist Bob Thompson [with whom I visited, & collected from Harry Cox - see the definitive Topic "Bonny Labouring Boy" Harry Cox collection] once said to me that he thought the association of seamen with the concertina was one of those bits of 'folklore about folklore', no older than Bert Lloyd's partnership with Alf Edwards; but he changed his mind when I pointed out the concertina-playing pirate in Barrie's 'Peter Pan' [1904], and the ref to sailors 'dancing to the wheezy music of the concertina' in the penultimate paragraph of Somerset Maugham's 'The Moon & Sixpence' [1919]. The concertina is a small but robust, portable but powerful instrument, small enough to fit into a sailor's dunnage without taking up too much of limited fo'csle space, &, unlike the harmonica to which it is so closely related [particularly in its anglo avatar], usable by a singer for simultaneous accompaniment.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 08:14 PM

Jane-

Just be aware of the history of shanty singing, and then decide what you want to do.

I'd love to hear a good fiddler on some of the shanties our group Roll & Go sings, and some of the sea songs which are not shanties.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 06:08 PM

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: open mike - PM
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 03:25 PM

fiddles might object to the humidity and salt
and may not have been taken to sea--
concertinas are more likely compatible
with ocean environment[endof quote]
sorry,concertinas are very temperamental and extremely sensitive to weather conditions,fiidles are a little better suited,but still not ideal,jaws harps are excellent,as are nose flutes.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 05:54 PM

In 99% of cases sea shanties no longer function as work songs. They are entertainment/pleasure. There is absolutely no reason why ANYONE should not add any accompaniment they want to. Most of the wankers who say shanties have to be unaccompanied have never been to sea anyway. As it happens I simply prefer to sing most of my shanties unaccompanied but I'm certainly not averse to being joined by a fiddler on any of them and squeeze boxes are no more traditional for sea songs than any other instrument.

As a squeezebox player who contemplated playing on the Brid pleasure boats, I was put off by the previous player complaining his reeds were rusting. Jim Eldon and his fiddle have been playing all summer through on the Brid pleasure boats for at least 20 years.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 02:46 PM

Pedant Alert !!

Sea Shanties were Unaccompanied Work Songs , so a fiddle playing a shanty would NOT suit the Folk Police at all !

However as Shanties were NOT approved of on Royal Navy vessels , a fiddler would often be utilised to keep the men pulling together .

Any suitably rhythmic tune would serve this function , but if you have a shanty singer who is NOT a purist and wants a fiddle accomp . Go For It !

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 04:22 PM

PS, without being too picky about exactly what a sea shanty is, both "the Drunken Sailor" and "Whip Jamboree" run nicely with fiddle.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 04:20 PM

Four bitters? Yes please!

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 03:49 PM

I understand fiddles were played on ships - East Indiamen come to mind? Concertinas weren't an option before the 1840s. I'm not sure about playing to shanties though- four bitters perhaps- Liverpool Judies would suit a fiddle.

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: RTim
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 03:36 PM

I think if I started to sing a shanty - and someone played a fiddle to it, I am not sure how pleased I would be?

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: open mike
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 03:25 PM

fiddles might object to the humidity and salt
and may not have been taken to sea--
concertinas are more likely compatible
with ocean environment

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 03:12 PM

I can do you one better: Rap songs that are good to play on fiddle.

Sarcastic Sahib

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 02:07 PM

I can't think of any true shanties that wouldn't go well with a fiddle

Barry

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Stewart
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 01:38 PM

Here's a good sea song (not a shanty) with a sing-along chorus that goes well with fiddle.

Quare Bingle Rye

Cheers, S. in Seattle
Seattle's fiddlin' maritime singer

Subject: RE: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Beer
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 09:45 AM

There are a number of artist that sing and play "Let Me Fish of Cape St. Mary's" on You Tube. Here is one of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grazMzjpP1o

The words are beautiful and done on a fiddle is a definite added bonus.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: Sea shanties for fiddle
From: Jane of' ull
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 09:20 AM

Can anyone recommend any sea shanties that are good to play on fiddle? Preferably ones that people can join in with at sessions.