BS: Do you believe in fate?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 08:16 PM

It's certainly part of his real personality. Bottled-up emotions that don't normally get expressed will tend to come out under the influence of alcohol. A lot of people suppress their sorrow or their anger or their lust, etc....and they'll reveal it much more clearly when they've had a few drinks. This is one reason why people want to drink, it helps them let go of bottled-up emotion.

I think that if your friend was not angry, he wouldn't get that way when he drinks...so the question is, what's he angry about? And are there are clear ways of resolving what causes that anger? He must be angry at women, for one thing.

Liquor seems to make me get merry, relaxed, and cheerful...but I've never tended to overdo it.

The classic stages of heavy drinking are said to be:

1. the "happy" drunk
2. the maudlin drunk
3. the angry drunk (worst stage!)
4. the comatose drunk

I've never gone past the "happy" stage.

By the way, I enjoyed the video with the scientist. I don't really agree with him in the larger sense of what he's saying, but I think what he was saying worked fine within the vert close parameters that he clearly wanted it to remain within. It was "true", but probably not the whole truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 07:41 PM

A friend of mine changes personalities completely when drinking...even small amounts. When he is sober a really nice, reasonable family guy. When drinking, argumenative, nasty and pushy with women.    I often wonder if the drunken personality is the real person inside?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 07:09 PM

I think, Ed, that there is some truth in what you say, but only some, and that we are not as mechanistic as you suggest, but do have a very considerable measure of genuine free will. Sure there are influencing factors which move us in various directions and set up our probable reactions, so that's part of it. We are autonomous nevertheless...to the extent that our own nature is willing to be autonomous. Some people are far more robot-like (and thus predictable) in their behaviour than others...suggesting that they have less ability to use their own free will and think for themselves.

It's well-known that a stupider person tends just to "react", whereas a wiser person tends to think things over and often override an instinctive reaction for ethical or logical reasons that would not even occur to a merely instinctive creature.

So we're a mixture of both the reactive and the creative. We can rewrite the script at any time.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 06:43 PM

A good perspective on what we are actually concious of, when decisions are made by us:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkaS5JWZ1hY

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 06:27 PM

Our actions (or lack of them) can change a personal outcome (or our perception of an outcome). But, our actions are a result of reactions that I our subconcious, (genes) and past experiences (or our perspectives of them)   determines. Our perception of what choices we have and what change has occured is likely also subjective. ....What do you think of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 04:32 PM

I think dreams probably arise out of thoughts and feelings that are stored in both the conscious mind and the subconcious mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 04:31 PM

Pass it over here, Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 04:22 PM

Or, are dreams c ompletely separate from thoughts and feelings?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 04:20 PM

Do thoughts and dreams follow feelings, or do feelings follow thoughts/dreams?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 04:13 PM

ALLLLVVVVINNNNN!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 03:58 PM

None of that's really about God. It's just about people having semantic arguments over their own favorite assumptions, whatever those may be. It's like listening to a couple of chipmunks fighting over a peanut they found.

When vacationing in the land of the Chipmunks, though, you must take care not to arouse their collective wrath...

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 03:44 PM

It was of course Aquinas who most notedly postulated the problem of evil — either God couldn't stop evil happening so he wasn't all-powerful; or he he could but let it continue for his own arcane purposes, so he wasn't all -loving. He was lucky they made him a St rather than burning him, wasn't he? The sort of thing that could have gone either way back then in C13. He would almost certainly have been burned going on like that a couple of centuries later, when the Inquisition had really got going...

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 03:37 PM

I guess it depends on what you think "all powerful" means, Paul...and what you think "God" means...or what you think someone else thinks "God" means...there are any number of possible interpretations.

I don't imagine God as some sort of being who runs around the Universe looking for things to intervene in so as to demonstrate His (Hers) (or Its) "power". ;-) Seems like a ludicrous concept to me, because it posits a God that is somehow separate from the rest of Creation, and that doesn't even make any sense, at least not to me.

What would the term "All-powerful" mean, and how would it take effect, and when and where? And upon what reason or purpose?

You either have free will or you don't. (and it's bloody well obvious that we do) If you have it, then no one can stop you from using it...to the extent that is limited by your own abilities within the situation, of course.

If, for example, I tred to use my free will to convince you of the existence of God....I wouldn't succeed. ;-) I can try, and no one can stop me from trying, but I won't succeed. At least, that seems likely to me.

If people imagine a God that is separate...then they must start debating about things such as "is God all-powerul"? I don't see any reason to debate about it, because I don't think of God as separate to anyone or anything, therefore it isn't a question of exercising "power", at least not in the usual sense that people would think of it.

Does life have power? Unquestionably. Is life all-powerful? Perhaps...because if you and I weren't alive, we'd have no power within ourselves to even be discussing this as we would not be consiously experiencing any of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 08:24 AM

So God is not all- powerful? Is a god who isn't all- powerful a god at all? ===

GOD KNOWS

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 07:14 AM

And no one can stop you from so doing...not God

So God is not all- powerful? Is a god who isn't all- powerful a god at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 10:36 PM

Gwshundeit to you and yours, Skipper, and if you think that's a joke, it's snot.

The answer is always Thou.


Somehow.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 06:05 PM

Who dealt this mess?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 05:45 PM

Wouldn't that stuff that's supposed to help you quit smoking...Nicorette, be eschewing gum?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 02:23 PM

Sounds like you need a Kleenex, Kendall.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 02:20 PM

I try to eschew obfuscation

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 12:37 PM

I have been known to pimp for certain nomenclatures. Beware!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 01:05 AM

I am, yes, but if the right nomenclature should appear I cannot be responsible for the consequences...

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 10:43 PM

"Amos is far too erudite to obnubilate the nomenclature."

I'll have you know he's a very happily married man!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 10:36 PM

ummmm.... maybe.. the tone of your laugh seems forced and insincere. I shall brood...

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 08:40 PM

I heard it the first time, dear Bill, but it hadn't sunk in yet. Here's your overdue reward: MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


There. Better? I hope so.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 08:39 PM

Did I really waste that line up there⚨?

"Selves are like onions, huh? Does that mean I can only ♫"ken John, peeled"?♫"

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 08:02 PM

Well, Little Hawk, nothing new there. As a being you can turn in your body and wander around and find one that suits your plans and proceed accordingly without feeling particularly dead at any point in the process.    If you are wholly identified with the body, of course, then you have to go through the black wall of death before you shake off the shock and loss and knowingly or unknowingly start something else going.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 08:00 PM

I don't believe in predestination. It's luck of the draw. A bunch of atoms slammed into each other and here we are.
Now, I'm even more of a Deist. Fuck it, I want to go home.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:59 PM

naaawwww, Ebbie...Amos is far too erudite to obnubilate the nomenclature.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:08 PM

He was speaking of your donkey, Bill D. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:04 PM

Wiener dogs would be a LOT quicker. Just one standard sized wiener dog can do the job if he's a fierce one.

The Rap music is an exquisitely evil touch. It's guaranteed to turn any animal vicious. Even sea cucumbers and guinea pigs get violent when exposed to too much Rap music.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 04:53 PM

Playing the rap music would do it for me, without the pit........but maybe that wouldn't be optional.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 04:50 PM

Weener dogs would be quicker, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 04:45 PM

"...mock not that which ye do not comprehend, .."

I thought I 'almost' comprehended some of it, until you explained it.

Selves are like onions, huh? Does that mean I can only ♫"ken John, peeled"?♫

Ouch! Now I need a band-aid on my ass!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 04:41 PM

Oh, wait...I know...death by hamsters is optional. To achieve it you have to acquire a very large number of hamsters...several thousand, I would think...and put them in a deep pit or an empty swimming pool. You then play loud Rap music to the poor things to drive them into a killing frenzy. You then strip off all your clothes, utter an inchoate shriek, and dive bodily into the pit or pool full of frenzied hamsters.

It's not a pleasant way to go, but it is optional, because you have to do it yourself. No one else will do it for you. It's too much trouble. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 04:37 PM

bobad was talking about John F. Weldon.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 04:18 PM

Ah, yes. I understand you perfectly now on that part. And I concur.

What did you mean by the other part "Death is optional, and has very low ROI"

ROI is "return on investment" I presume? Which type of death are you suggesting is optional?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 03:32 PM

No mystery to it, LH. Selves form in layers like onions. What you invent as your fate from the outside manifests itself as fate on the inner side, except it looks like someone else is doing it because of the abandonment of the creative levels from which it was initially generated.


As for changing the suit, I think that idea comes from the Bhagavad Gita concerning the changing of bodies between life cycles...

Bill D, mock not that which ye do not comprehend, lest your own ass be bitten....



A

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:43 PM

Gosh, no, bobad... whoever could that be? >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:42 PM

Could you expand on those thoughts a bit, Amos? I feel you are being overly mysterious.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:37 PM

Great cartoon gnu. BTW did you notice the name of the story consultant in the credits?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:37 PM

I can't bear that Yogi guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:33 PM

Why, Amos...I didn't realize you were channeling Emily Dickenson and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi at the same time!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:26 PM

Fate is just our little way of reminding ourselves what we were thinking the last time we were being ourselves. Death is optional, and has very low ROI; better just to change the suit you are wearing.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:14 PM

The cat......

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:13 PM

My fav cartoon vid of all time Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:09 PM

♫"The cat came back, the very next day..." ♫

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:04 PM

Great poem!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:48 PM

By fate or chance? My friend, not a Mudcatter, just sent me the following. What a beautiful gem it is, imo, and somewhat apropos this thread:

    I shall be coming back to you
    From seas, rivers, sunny meadows,
       glens that hold secrets:
    I shall come back with my hands full
    Of light and flowers...
    I shall bring back things I have picked up,
    Traveling this road or the other,
    Things found by the sea or in the pinewood.
    There will be a pine-cone in my pocket,
    Grains of pink sand between my fingers,
    I shall tell you of a golden pheasant's
       feather...
    Will you know me?

    From "I Shall Come Back"
    Hilda Conkling (age ten), 1922

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:34 PM

Well, yes, death is the ultimate escape. ;-) No question about that. But how can I escape the inevitable Obit thread that follows death? I suppose I will have to arrange for a mysterious disappearance, the way Judge Crater did.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:30 PM

LH... "I probably should never have joined this danged forum in the first place, because now there is no escape from it."

Death?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:26 PM

Like I said - ESCHATOLOGY - there is no escaping those 4 Bloody Last Things .....

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:16 PM

And I'll leave a note that says:"Hi, Bill!

*g*

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:15 PM

By the way, it sort of bugs me that after I go someone will no doubt start an "Obit" thread about me here. Sheesh. I'd much rather leave so quietly that no one even noticed I had gone. I probably should never have joined this danged forum in the first place, because now there is no escape from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:09 PM

LOL!!! That's a wonderful idea, Bill. Do it. ;-)

And I'll instruct someone...if I go first...to leave a note in my name on Mudcat saying: "Bill, you were absolutely right! There's nothing at all after death. Zippo. Zilch. I am not even here. In fact, disregard this message."

The illogicality of it all really appeals to my sense of humour, and think how exonerated it would make you feel.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 12:16 PM

"Bill believes in fate.." yeah...right... *grin

Since I have a piece of paper that sorta semi-officially allows me to pontificate on these matters, I will...(not that I wouldn't anyway.)

Asking "Do you believe in fate?" doesn't even phrase the question well enough. Kendall sorta asked why HE was ok and others weren't. That's not exactly the same as asking if those on the crashed plane were 'destined' to be there.
   There are 'chains of causality' which put you in one place rather than another at some particular time...(if you hadn't stopped to get a drink of water before leaving home, you wouldn't have been in that intersection when the truck ran the red light)... but the confusion arises when we start asking (or asserting) that some 'force'/'higher power'/'destiny' wanted you there....or not there.
   You can say accurately that billions of prior events, including your own decisions, put you 'there', but just using loaded words like destiny makes the entire incident feel different...and somehow, people like to add "I believe that XYZ..." to their stories, as if that settles the matter.

I, personally, have been fortunate to have a few close calls in traffic, but no serious accidents. If I change 'fortunate' to 'lucky', the feel of the incident seems to be different. If I, (as some do), use words like 'granted' to describe my escape from danger, there's a whole new realm being implicitly assumed. This is where you get one survivor of a plane crash that kills 127 saying "God must have been with me". And God was too busy to save the other 127? Or to show that mechanic the electrical short that caused the plane to crash? Or in the case of the flight right ahead of Kendall's, to have the plane de-iced again after sitting too long on the runway? (I watched the rescue attempts live as they were happening a few miles from my house).

Donuel & Little Hawk comment about 'leaving a note from beyond the grave'....well, *I* have seriously contemplated leaving instructions with some trusted, healthy, younger person on how to access my computer and my Mudcat account, and posting a note in the middle of my OBIT thread, from me, saying, "I told you there was nothing here after death!"

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:44 AM

Fair enough. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:42 AM

I find it of interest too, LH; I didn't suggest I wasn't: & I am not in a religion either. Just that I felt this thread was getting rather bogged down in philosopho-theological minutiae so that the trees were beginning to obscure the wood.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:35 AM

Why does one have to be in a religion to be interested in stuff like that? I'm not (in a religion, I mean). I am interested, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:31 AM

Eschatology = the part of theology concerned with death and judgment, Heaven & Hell - the '4 Last Things' in the RC catechism, I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:10 AM

"the ballsachingly eschatological"????

I think I must consult the dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 12:39 AM

I suppose it was fate that this thread would degenerate into the obscurely philosophical & the ballsachingly eschatological.

Ho-hum. Think I'll go back to bed...

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:54 PM

Put it another way, Donuel...I figure I've already died in so damn many ways by now that it would be futile to try to list them...assuming I could remember them, which I fortunately can't. The only one I remember with real clarity was dying slowly of exposure in very cold and deep water (a miserable experience). The best thing about that was, it ended. When it did, I felt just fine except for worrying about some other people nearby who weren't "dead" yet...I felt very bad for them, because they were really suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:46 PM

Have I tried death? Yeah, I think I've tried it many times, but not in this life so far.

I would leave a note more like this:

If you are reading this now, I am dead, and let me tell you it turned out to be pretty wonderful. No one tells me what to do here. There are no bosses, but there are many friends. I see things with such greater clarity now, and no longer feel lonely, small, and vulnerable. The things that worried me during my recent "life" seem like mere phantasms now. There's no physical discomfort of any sort. I've had a chance to review all the events of my recent life, and I see now what the point was to it all, and it finally makes sense. If I'd had any idea it would be this good, I might have been tempted to die a lot sooner. Don't worry about me, because I have never felt any better than I do now.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:36 PM

Close calls are fun to talk about    for the survivors.

For the dead victims it just palin sucks.

LH said maybe the dead are better off, who knows, have you tried it?



I reccommend leaving behind a note from beyond the grave ... not like a Will but more like an angry rant
.
for example:


If you are reading this now I am dead, and let me tell you it really sucks. There is a guy here who is telling everyone what to do. Who made him boss? Everything is dark with a wierd blurry outline around everything that can pass through everything else. By the way everthing hurts. Its like whenever you try to move you hit a funny bone. This shit ain't funny. Time is totally fucked here. I can smell farts before they were blasted. I can see the far hidden side of objects as easy as the front. Not only can I move up and down and back and forth but I can sort of go in and out in a way that is just too wierd to explain. Being dead really blows. I had a bunch of programs on my DVR I haven't seen yet. The sky here reminds me of a Bikini Bottom sky but instead of flowers, there are strange changing fractal patterns. Whoa, up ahead and inside there is this sprialing white hole that is...hey I am writing you this note. Man, like being an infant , none of this makes any sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:17 PM

LOL, LH.

Hey, Bill believes in fate. Who'da thunk it?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:55 PM

Yeah, my eyes are sort of brown. But not exactly. They've got a brown part, a sort of bluish or greenish outer ring...and so on. Most people would say they were brown, I guess, but I can't decide what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:44 PM

!!!!!...****...and not only that, &&&&&&&!!!!! besides...#####

further, deponent sayeth not.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:32 PM

You have brown eyes, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:27 PM

You can exercise free will at any time, thus altering your unfolding path of fate to some extent...however, you can also exercise your free will to declare: "I have no free will." ;-) And no one can stop you from so doing...not God, not Nature, not the laws of physics, nothing. They can stop you from doing it tomorrow by killing you pre-emptively today, but they cannot stop you from exercising your free will in the manner you decide to at the moment you decide to. You free will is merely limited to what is actually possible at the time, and that is all. The notion that a being having free will would argue that he hasn't got it is kind of hilarious, but it just shows how much independence we have! Plenty. We can assert absolutely anything we wish to. And we do.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:08 PM

HA. I do that by free will.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 04:26 PM

It is my fate to disbelieve in fate.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 04:26 PM

When people think about fate, they are usually thinking about the biggest events in their lives, such as finding the person with whom they will fall in love, or perhaps the time and circumstance of their death.

We are especially tempted to think about fate when we contemplate that those things aren't completely under our control, though we would like them to be.

So it's natural to wonder, are they under the control of someone (or something) else? A benevolent (but inscrutable) God, perhaps, or the laws of physics? If we can't control the major events of our lives in the ordinary way—by making careful plans and carrying them out—then maybe we can control them in an extraordinary way, by propitiating the gods, or by using some hocus-pocus to see what fate has in store for us, so we can at least be better prepared.

It seems to me, if you accept determinism—that things happen either by the will of God or by the laws of nature—then you have to accept that not only the big events of our lives are predetermined, but also the most trivial, because big events depend on many little ones. ("For want of a nail, the shoe was lost...etc.") In other words, we have no free will.

Personally, I find determinism impossible to "believe in"—but let me define "believe in." I can't believe in determinism in the same way that I believe in justice or forgiveness, that is, to use it (or try to use it) as a guiding principle of life. I can believe in it in an abstract sense, the same way I believe that the galaxy is 100,000 light years side from side—but I would live my life the same way whether I believed it or not.

Note: I am not saying "I can't believe it, therefore it isn't true." That would be a non sequitur. I really mean "I can't believe it, therefore I can't help but pretend it isn't true."

In other words, I am forced (predetermined, if you will) to act as if I believe I have free will, even though (maybe) I don't.

Does that make sense?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Becca72
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 04:05 PM

Amen to that, Hawk

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 03:22 PM

No, you won't. (unless a truck hits you) ;-) I have never gotten a flu shot in my life, and I'm still here. This last flap about the flu was the usual hysterical sales program, and I bet it made someone a whole lot of money.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: gnu
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 03:17 PM

Like Tug, and Bugs Bunny, said... ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances.

Yosemite Sam forced the outcome of fate with Bugs and... shoulda kept his two bits.

Que Serum, Serum... if I don't get the flu shot will I die...

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 03:11 PM

Some of these are coincidences, and I always liked what that Cardassian tailor said, that while he *believed in* coincidence (coincidences happen every day), he didn't trust coincidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 01:35 PM

Could be a bit of both. ;-)

GfS - You asked, "Do you think they would be afraid, if they connected to where they came from......before they entered into this life?"

No, I think in that case they would not be afraid...or they would at least be less afraid, depending on how attached they had become to the things in this life.

When people get very attached to other people or various things here, then they are most reluctant to leave. When they reach a point where they're not much attached to anything here any longer...or even tired of the whole scene...then they become far less reluctant to leave.

I see this a lot in old dogs and old people. They reach a point where "the thrill is gone" and they are fairly much inclined to just sleep most of the time (providing they have what they need). That is a passive and willing movement toward embracing death...whether or not it's consciously recognized as such.

People who say they "don't believe in fate" are expressing a form of very solid faith they have in a certain philosophy they hold about reality. How would I express that philosophy? Well, I guess it would be..."Everything is separate, and there's nothing going on here that doesn't proceed on that basis of separation." Would that be it? Or...? Hmmm. It's not an easy one to pin down in words. I think they're of the "what you see is what you get (and it's all you get)" school. That is, they look for the obvious...the physical...and they figure that that is all there is. It's a self-sustaining philosophy since its conditions of observation predetermine its conclusions and exclude any other possibility. Like a circle that completes itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 01:22 PM

No, YOU are what makes you...

However, if it is your fate to be decidely apathetic, believing that fate can't be altered, well, then you will become what fate decides to make you.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 01:08 PM

No, Lizzie — Fate is what it makes you.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 11:45 AM

Fate is what you make it...

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 11:31 AM

Good one, Tug. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 09:25 AM

Do you beleve in fate?
Do I have any choice?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Becca72
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 09:00 AM

I would be more apt to believe it was "fate" had you originally been scheduled on the flight that went down and been switched for some reason. Being the next plane in line seems pretty random.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 07:47 AM

I can't help but think it is all luck of the draw.


Back in 1912 the Titanic was about to sail from England and an American named Jack Johnson was refused a ticket. He was refused because he was black. The fact that he was heavyweight champion of the world meant nothing. We all know what happened on that trip. Racism saved his life, and I wonder if he ever said to himself, "Screw you Honkys, I'm still on top."

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Janie
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 07:05 AM

Oh. Sorry, GfS. I was referring to Kendall's original post.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 02:01 AM

Huh??....I meant connecting consciously, if possible..and it is, with where you were, who you were, as in the consciousness you had(or have), before you entered this life, in this form. Only in 'time' do we have this dimension of what we perceive as physical, or matter, as we know it.
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Janie
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 01:19 AM

No. Assuming by fate you mean predestined.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 12:52 AM

Little Hawk: "What they fear is what they do not know."

Do you think they would be afraid, if they connected to where they came from......before they entered into this life?

BTW, yoho!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 12:20 AM

Death seems to obsess this thread — understandably: LH's post above is typical. Mrrzy deals with marriage, but the karma here turned out a bit no-no. My own marriage was the result of just having caught a boat which my family & I almost missed — ferry from St Malo to Dinard about midday 18 Oct 1956. The boat was pulling away from the quay when two English girls drew attentn of crew to some English people hurrying to catch, and the crew most obligingly [& such crews, French or otherwise, not always so obliging, esp when there will be another boat along in only ½-hr] put back the 10 metres or so to let us board. Long-story-short, I spent a blissful ½-century married to one of those girls, until her death a couple of years ago.

Don't know about 'fate' - BUT if girls not so helpful, if crew not so obliging, if girls not so polite as to agree to a drink with us that evening on my father's grateful insistence, who knows how my life would have turned out? I certainly shouldn't be sitting right where I am now, doing what I am doing, typing this into this thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:57 PM

Donuel, it's RIGHT HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:48 PM

I'm inclined to think that we plan our lives out to a large extent before we come into the body, and if that's the case, what may seem like fate might just be the perfect unfolding of our own plans.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:47 PM

Holy cow the Haiti thread is gone!
I guess there is too much hate even here to speak of a human disaster , while we are "AT WAR".

Oh well I had some good observations whileit lasted.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:43 PM

wrong thread

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:41 PM

Haiti in 1492 was where Columbus became grounded.

The Haitian slave revolt in 1791 was like THe sparticus slave revolt EXCEPT they beat the emporer Napolean. After the many defeats in Haiti and Canada, Napolean decided France was over extended and decided to sell their territories. The United States purchased the land offerd by Napolean in an event we now call the Louisiana Purchase. Haiti was instrumental in the growth of our nation.


After fighting the Spanish, the English and then France, Haiti is the second oldest nation in the western hemisphere after the United States and led the way for free nations in the rest of SOuth America.

I wonder if Haiti frightened the slaves owners of America since Haiti had the only sucessful slave revolt that led to a soverign nation???

I think we have as a nation punished Haitian audacity for being so uppity as to win a slave revolt.


THe US has attacked Haiti no fewer than 3 times to protect our interests by "stabilizing" the region.

For the last 40 years the US has had a less tolerent imigration policy than the one we have toward Castro's Cuba.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:07 PM

I don't but the first time I saw my spouse-to-be the whole world flew away from the tunnel between our eyes, and it was completely mutual. I stuck it out as long as I could... but finally had to take the twins away from the abuse. What a miserable life my would-be soulmate ended up living, at least it was short.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:04 PM

I pretty much agree with LH, but I also believe in reincarnation and that we make choices as to what or who we come back to, i.e. parents, etc. Each time there are lessons to be learned.

I also agree with Donuel when he said "I respect premonition and practicing intuitive caution..."

I've always told my kids never to doubt if they seem guided to take an alternate route to work or wherever when driving or in other activities of their days and nights. There were times when we would come upon a pileup of cars and know, had we taken our usual route, we would have been part of the melee. It's just automatic with us all, now. We go the way which *feels* best. One ting else I taught them was to surround anyone in trouble with a healing light, i.e. ambulances, car wreck victims, etc. It doesn't hurt anyone and it may just help.

Fate, to me, is something people use as an excuse...a set-in-stone excuse. If you weren't on that plane, that day, Kendall, you weren't supposed to be...the Great Spirit had other plans for you AND, as LH says, we also may exercise our free will.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 10:21 PM

"Run run Rudolph
I'm reelin' like a merry go round"

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 10:08 PM

Well said, Rudolph.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 10:07 PM

"Insofar as man considers himself within the world of natural things and events, he will find it impossible to escape the conclusions of [Einstein's] theory of relativity. But if he does not want to lose himself in mere relativities, in what may be called an impotence of his inner life, if he wants to experience his own entity, he must not seek what is 'substantial in itself' in the realm of Nature, but in [the realm] of transcending Nature, in the realm of the spirit.

       "It will not be possible to evade this theory of relativity for the physical world, but precisely this fact will drive us to a knowledge of the spirit. What is significant about the theory of relativity is the fact that it proves the necessity of a science of the spirit that is to be sought in spiritual ways, independent of observation in nature. That the theory of relativity forces us to think in this way constitutes its value within the development of world conception."

Rudolf Steiner, The Riddles of Philosophy

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 09:59 PM

Since everyone dies...what's more important: the time of death? or the manner of death? Or would that depend entirely on the individuals involved?

Dying might be the best thing that ever happened for some people. You never can tell. Everyone "here" assumes that death is a bad thing...but how can they be sure of that if they haven't experienced it yet?

What they fear is what they do not know.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 09:52 PM

The fellow for whom I was working back in 1996 was on standby for ValuJet Flight 592. His ticket was for a later flight, but he'd finished his business and was trying to get home a few hours earlier. Fortunately, the flight was full so wasn't able to get on. If there'd been a no show, he'd have been one of the 110 people who died when it went down in the Everglades six minutes after takeoff.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 09:11 PM

Do I believe in fate?

Yes....

But I also believe in free will. Effective use of free will can significantly alter one's fate in a brand new fate. It's usually a question of how effectively people DO use their free will. In many, if not most cases....that's not terribly effectively, I'd have to say.

I'll explain it this way. Say life is a river. Say you're floating down that river in a small boat...to an unknown fate. You have a paddle, a sail, and a rudder. The question is, do you use them? And how often? And with what degree of focus and skill and purpose?

The path of your boat on the river is the path of your personal fate...in the relative absense of the creative use of free will. If you just sit around in the boat, look at the scenery going by, and wait for something to happen or someone else to do it for you...then the river will bear you inevitably to some predetermined fate that awaits you.

If you start using the paddle, however, you will alter that fate into some other fate. The more you use the paddle, the rudder, and the sail, the more you will alter the course of your original line of fate into some other fate.

Really effective and focused use of the paddle, rudder, and sail, can steer you directly to a fate of your own visualization and your own choosing. Vague or haphazard use of the control devices will not have nearly so useful an effect, and will probably lead you to a fate not so much of your own choosing.

And so it goes.... ;-) Life is a mixture of "fate" (established patterns of situational probability) and free will. Free will is the way of power. Passively drifing around according to fate is the way of powerlessness.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 08:41 PM

Years ago - about 53, to be fairly exact - I was in a car travelling from Michigan to Oregon. The driver, my sister in law, had her two children in the car and I was along to help take care of them.

We stopped in a drive-in movie in Fremont, Nevada, so SIL could have a nap and I would have something to do in the interim.

Well, it got really stormy- the winds gusted and rocked the car, lightning flashed about so horrendously that I was afraid to put the receiver out the window onto its post.

One by one ALL the cars started their motors and left the lot. And we were the only ones left.

Eventually SIL woke up and we continued on our way. On the radio it said that two tornadoes had touched down in Omaha 30 miles away. Tornadoes hadn't even occurred to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 08:31 PM

Nah! you were miles away.


I was on a flight from Saudi Arabia to Bahrain, normally a ten minute flight. Well there was a thunderstorm over the airport at Bahrain, and the pilot tried to land, we were bounced about all over the sky. Luggage bins were popping open and the staff were rushing up and down pushing the bags back in and closing the. After about fifteen minutes of this he went back to Dahran and waited for the storm to pass. It wasn't 'till a few years later that the airlines got concerned about wind shear.

Now That's a close call.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 08:04 PM

"I recall seeing a news broadcast when a passenger plane crashed through the ice of a Washington D.C. river (Potomac?). The film crew showed a fellow on the water surface who pushed a lady onto the ice from which she was rescued. The next picture was of an empty place where the guy used to be. He drowned. "Bravery" is much more common than most of us suspect. Much of it goes unnoticed."

I posted that at 7:46 PM as in 12 minutes ago and 7 minutes before your initial post, Kendall. Scary, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 08:02 PM

I respect premonition and practicing intuitive caution but fate is beyond my grasp. Perhaps you are referring to close calls?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 08:00 PM

Funny: I just posted something about that on another thread.

In answer to your question, no!

Subject: BS: Do you believe in fate?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 07:53 PM

Here's one to start.

On this day in 1982 I was sitting on a plane in Washington DC waiting to take off for Maine. Suddenly there came an announcement over the intercom that Air Florida flight 90 just crashed into the Potomac river. We sat there listening to the gory details and I was wondering, What the hell am I doing here"? I was in the next plane ready to take off. Was that a close call?