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BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats
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BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 May 00 - 12:55 PM I don't know if Tomás Ó Crohan even spoke English.
Anyway the word-for-word translation was Myles na Gopaleen's, one of a few passages included in an anthology called The Best of Myles na Gopaleen, published by Picador. The other one I quoted from is by Robin Flower, in an edition published by the Oxford University Press, a very nice edition, with some great pictures. P> I can't tell how good Flower's translation is, since I haven't the Irish. It reads well anyway - but looking at Myles literal word for word transposition of the Irish into English, I think the tidied up version must lose a lot of flavour. I don't know too much about contemporary books in Irish - but anybody who gets with reaching distance of Tomás Ó'Crohan, or Maurice O'Sullivan (Twenty Years a-growing) would be far far better than 90 per cent of the books written in English any year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Hollowfox Date: 24 May 00 - 12:29 PM CDB, and its sequel CDC, were written by William Steig, if anybody's looking for them. Compulsively yours, hollowfox |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Áine Date: 24 May 00 - 09:11 AM Kevin, I have An tOileánach only in Irish. Did Ó Criomhthain also write a version in English? Or is your translation above from someone else? Either way, I'd love to find the version i mBéarla that you're quoting. Can you send me the information on it, please? And as far as any criticisim of the older works in a syllabus of Irish literature -- how they hold up to a critical examination today does nothing to decrease the fact that they preserved the traditions and language of a world now lost forever. And as I read the most current "literary" offerings as Gaeilge, I'm often disappointed that these modern authors do not have the same emotion and sense of the language that the older writers had. It seems that many of the new authors feel a need to see who can be more esoteric and use the most archane words possible, instead of just telling a good story the best way they can. Jumping off my soapbox now, Áine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Vixen Date: 24 May 00 - 08:07 AM Eddie-- CDB is hilarious. I have that one too. I wonder why I didn't think of it. CRS or something, I'm sure! V |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 May 00 - 07:45 AM "which many people did not rate highly" - but Myles/Flann/Brian did not share this opinion, so far as I am aware. Parodying something doesn't mean you disdain it, as a glance through the Digital Tradir=tion demoinstrates.
My understanding is that when, for example, he died the occasional word for word translation of a passge of Irish, insofar as there was any aim behind it over and above sheer fun, he'd have been demonstrating how inadequate such translations into English were at conveying the full wealth of the Gaelic. For example: I was a day in Dingle and Paddy James, my sister's man, in company with me and us in the direction of each other in the running of the day. A man he was that would not have a glass of whiskey long between the hands, or a pint of black porter either, without shooting them backwards; but he got no sweet taste ever on the one he would buy himselt, and great would be the pleasure with him that another man should nudge him in the back to ask him to have one with him.
From An tOileánach, by Tomas Ó Criomthain (The Islandman by Tomas O'Crohan.
And here is the same passage in a translation by Robin Flowers
I was in Dingle one day with Pats Heamish, my sister's husband, and we kept together all day long. He was the sort of man that couldn't keep a glass of whiskey or a pint of porter long between his hands without pouring them down him, and he never enjoyed the taste of anything he paid for with his own money, but like it well when another man jogged him in the back to have one with him.
I somehow doubt if Myles/Flann/Brian would ever have thought that the The Islandman was not fit to be put on a syllabus of Irish literature.
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: GUEST,Crazty Eddie Date: 24 May 00 - 06:45 AM Myles was very much a satirist. He also wrote a book called, "An Beal Bocht" [The Poor Mouth], which took the pee out of various Gaelic autobiographies,which were on the Gaelic syllabus as 'literature' but which many people did not rate highly. I havent seen this 'Gaelish' before, but I have seen the reverse. During the late nineteenth & early twentieth century, Gaelic was not taught in schools, but was still fairly widely spoken. As a result, there were many people who could SPEAK both Gaelic & English, but who could READ only English. Somebody (I have no idea who) published books which were Gaelic, but spelled phonetically in English. I guess it was an attempt to promote the use of Gaelic, among those people who were literate in English but not in Gaelic. As someone who had learned to read both languages, I found this hybridised version really difficult to puzzle out. I wonder if Myles was 'extracting the urine' out of these sincere but misguided publishers? Anyone know anything more about these English-phonetic-Gaelic books? Eddie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Mark Cohen Date: 24 May 00 - 01:53 AM 1 Dorf hull! I'm reminded of another little gem, not quite as sophisticated: CDB? My favorite item from that book was a little man lying on the ground, obviously exhausted, with the caption: IFNNENRG. Struck a chord with us medical students... And, Mrrzy, if the Gaelic in your piece makes half as much sense as the French in Mots d'Heures, it's a turd afores! Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Vixen Date: 23 May 00 - 02:18 PM Gak-- ignore the first bluicky, it doesn't work. click the v in the second message, and it does. I DO NOT GROK HTML!!! V |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Vixen Date: 23 May 00 - 02:16 PM v |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Vixen Date: 23 May 00 - 02:12 PM It seemed to me that we had talked about all this before somewhere... deja vu, crs, or, I've lost my marble. another thread on the same topic V |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 May 00 - 01:37 PM Hit this train May King sane Soviet hi-fi end! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Vixen Date: 23 May 00 - 11:01 AM Om high cod! Disease one door full! EWER one door full! Eye bin luck in four moors tough lye kiss! Money tanks! Key pit come in! V (woos bin thin king know won butter lye kit is sore tough weird ploy!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 23 May 00 - 10:38 AM LOL, and in French to boot! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 May 00 - 07:32 PM There are another two books in the series (all published by Angus & Robertson) - one is N'heures souris rames
The other is Guillaume Chequespierre and the Oise Salon>/I> "an anthology selected and edited by John Hulme".
It includes works by Guillaume Chequespierre, and also by Jean Quittce, Guillaume Bleque, Henri Longuevelo and a number of others.
For example here is a poem by Guillaume Bleque, with the annotations supplied by John Hulme::
Tailles guerre, tailles guerre, beurre naine brailles-te
Tailles guerre:"War waists" - a popular name for tye Paris fashions during the 1870-71 siege (cf "to tighten one's belt").
beurre naine brailles-te: To brawl.A female dwarf arguing over some butter is compared to a drilling machine.
Un deux g=foreuse; t'ouef de nailles-te?
Coude-frais : "Cool elbow" - a slightly warmer version of the cold shoulder.
me taille fiere foule si; mettre-y!: "Put it there!" She says she is proud of her waist-line in any crowd, and invites him to shake on it.
It all feels frighteningly plaussible to me...
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Hollowfox Date: 22 May 00 - 06:55 PM If you like "Mots...", then try the German version: "Morder Guss Reims: the Gustave Leberwurst Manuscript" by John Hulme C.N. Potter, pub. 1981. For what it's worth, my library has this under the subject heading "macaronic literature". Also, years ago, the Pick'n' & Sing'n' Gather'n' (a fine folk music club) put "Ladle Rat..." and some song lyrics (Lath Thing Thumb Thongs) in their address listing. If I can find my old copy, I'll see if I can put them up. Somebody said that they were part of a psychology test dealing with language perception, I believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 22 May 00 - 10:55 AM Rackin frackin HTML again, the italics were supposed to close at the end of the French phrase. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Mrrzy Date: 21 May 00 - 09:16 PM Thanks for the blicky, McGrath of Harlow, and GuestPhilippa, I hope that answers your question. However, Mark, I didn't mean it would "make sense" in Gaelic any more than Mots D'Heures make sense in French - Un petit d'un petit is footnoted as "the inevitable result of a child marriage" but it takes a sense of humor to call it "making sense," quoi. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Mark Cohen Date: 21 May 00 - 08:07 PM Mrrzy, thanks for the memory jolt...I first found "Mots d'Heures: Gousse, Rames" as a college freshman in 1970. I don't think it's ever been equalled. Now I have to go rummaging through boxes of books to see if I can still find it! I presume by your reference to "Mots d'Heures" that the Gaelic in your piece makes "sense" (loosely, I imagine) in Gaelic, as well as sounding like English when read aloud. I have noticed sometimes when listening to Irish or Scottish Gaelic songs that what sounds like an English phrase will suddenly "pop out." To carry that out for pages and pages would be a real tour de force. Wish I knew the language and could appreciate it fully. By the way, I recall once hearing some of the poems from "Mots d'Heures" read on the radio. It might have been an interview with the author, but I wonder if they've ever been recorded. Might be fun with music! Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Áine Date: 21 May 00 - 01:20 PM Thanks for the corrections, Kevin -- I can see where I was having a problem -- my Irish is out of the North, so I was pronouncing the "Gaelish" words differently to begin with, and then trying to put them into "southern" Irish on top of it all. So that would have me doing four translations in the end? And you're exactly right that it's a great game to 'get your head around' it all. Kinda reminds me of the "ní cheapaim" jokes . . . -- Áine
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 May 00 - 01:06 PM It's "striking a match" , Áine, I think, and Manuel Labour is taken to be a Portuguese Agitator.
But it's great exercise getting your head round Myles na Gopaleen's Gaelish. And the sneaky thing is every now and again he'll do things like having a conversation between one fella speaking Gaelish, and another speaking proper Gaelic.
But I still think we're only getting half the joke, and that there is some kind of tortured alternative meaning to be teased out if the passage if you treat the words as if they really were Irish. And the thread which started all this, and explains about Ladle rats and "Mots d'heures" and all that, is the one aboutSpoonerisms |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Áine Date: 21 May 00 - 10:50 AM Well, here's my best shot at a translation for ya: "I know a man who is so lazy that he sleeps in his clothes, wears a beard, and does not smoke because of the trouble of (straigeing a meaits). It is so long since he did an honest day's work that he thinks "manual labour" is the name of a Portugese auditor. I didn't get all of it, as you can see -- Would "straigeing a meaits" be something about "bumming one of his mate's" cigs, perhaps? But I agree with McGrath, it is pretty funny! -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 21 May 00 - 04:34 AM Mrrzy, can you explain more about the references to Ladle Rat Rotten Hut and Mots d'Heures Gousses Rames? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Mrrzy Date: 20 May 00 - 10:22 PM You're a better Gunga Din than I... And, eould someone who actually speaks Gaelic translate, pretty please? And I don't mean give the English (pronunciation) that would make sense if I could read Gaelic, I mean the nonsense you'd get if you tried to read this in Gaelic. I'd like to get a picture... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 May 00 - 09:31 PM I remembered Myles n Gopaleen when that stuff about Ladle Rats and so on came up - and like Mrrzy I decided against posting a quote, for the same reasons. The Gaelicised English is hilarious, but you need to take it in a fair quantity to appreciate it. And an understanding of how the Gaelic spelling words is not intuitive, one might say.
But here's a bit anyway, to give people an idea what it's all about: Aigh nó a mean thú ios só leisaigh dat thí slíps in this clós, bhears a bíord, and dos not smóc bíocós obh de trobal obh straigeing a meaits. It is só long sins thí did an anasth dea's bhorc dat thí thincs "manuil leabear" is de neim obh a Potuguis arditeatear
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Mrrzy Date: 20 May 00 - 05:52 PM I love the Anguished Languish, don't you? Familiar with a terrific peom called something like Card and Ward and Work and Fork? It has to be read very slowly... and is a superb example of why dyslexia is so rare in languages spelled phonetically! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Margo Date: 20 May 00 - 01:04 PM I'm not sure what you're talking about, but it sounds really interesting! One word meaning so many things could lead to terrible confusion. I guess you would need to know the context of what was being expressed. I came across the following: 22 REASONS WHY THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE IS HARD TO LEARN 1) The bandage was wound around the wound. 2) The farm was used to produce produce. 3) The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse. 4) We must polish the Polish furniture. 5) He could lead if he would get the lead out. 6) The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert. 7) Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was time to present the present. 8) A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum. 9) When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes. 10) I did not object to the object. 11) The insurance was invalid for the invalid. 12) There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row. 13) They were too close to the door to close it. 14) The buck does funny things when the does are present. 15) A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line. 16) To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow. 17) The wind was too strong to wind the sail. 18) After a number of injections my jaw got number. 19) Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear. 20) I had to subject the subject to a series of tests. 21) How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend? 22) The Indian took a bow after tying a bow in the string of his bow Margo |
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Subject: Gaelic 'Mots D'Heures' or Ladle Rats From: Mrrzy Date: 20 May 00 - 12:42 PM I found it! In a thread I cannot now locate (yes, I tried the Forum search for what I thought it was about), I mentioned that I had a Gaelic something that is along the lines of Ladle Rat Rotten Hut, or (more closely) Mots d'Heures Gousses Rames. Anyway, I found it today: it is from Myles na gCopaleen, aka Flann O'Brien, according to the handwritten note on it. It goes on for pages and PAGES. I cannot read Gaelic any more (when I was in Ireland it kind of came to me) so I can't appreciate it myself. And it's WAY too long to copy. Anyone interested can send me a fax number, though, it is really very interesting. Looking through it now, I see that it also has some paras in English, one of which is a little dissertation on how Irish peasants (I'm quoting here) have a vocabulary of 40,000 words or so, whereas the Eglish get by with a mere 4000...One claim is that "it is a nice speculation to what extremity one would be reduced if one were locked up for a day with an Irish-speaking bore and bereft of all means of committing murder or suicide... There is scarcely a single word in the Irish (barring, possibly, Sasanach) that is simple and explicit...Cur [can mean] ... a heron's boil, a leprechaun's denture...the scum on the eye of a senile ram... a goat's stomach-pump ... " It's a howl. |