Message to CarolC

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 May 01 - 02:18 PM

Carol, you are speaking in general and I am speaking about a specific group of people. The DC area folkies are a wonderful and diverse group. They are warm and welcoming of strangers. Maybe you are trying to force your music into venues where it doesn't fit? I ask that with all respect, not in a challenging fashion. Perhaps if you gave people a bit of an intro and explained your genre to them as something that is generally not seen as a traditional art, but your scholarship has found it to be. That type of approach might work. And, of course, there are sometimes just those snobbish pricks you can't get around. But most, by a factor of 99+%, folkies that I have met would never ostracize, and would be very respectful. Especially the DC folkies that I have met.

And the general statement stands. Don't walk in with preconceived notions, you might be limiting yourself.

Mick

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Fortunato
Date: 08 May 01 - 02:03 PM

Carol that's great! See you in June Maybe.

Carol and MTed. I may have overstated. I think the folk community here welcomes most instruments however unusual. But I have felt ostracized because I brought an electric guitar on stage at some events to play first early country and then western swing. My forays in those genres and Rockabilly in the decidedly non-folkie DC Bar Band scene have made me invisible to many here.

I only meant to say I understood the subtle discrimination that takes place.

Cheers!

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 01 - 02:00 PM

Big Mick,

I appreciate your thoughts, but I respectfully disagree. I can't speak about anything that goes on in the DC folk music scene, but my experience has been that it can be very difficult to introduce new musical elements into a well established and entrenched musical millieu.

It requires persistance, dedication, and a very thick skin. But it's also a very good learning experience.

Carol

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 May 01 - 01:40 PM

I have been watching this one...........pretty interesting. I would like to add two things.

Carol, no musician worth their salt would ever denigrate another persons instrument or genre. We do it in jest sometimes, but I would like to tell you that whenever I am in the presence of a good musician playing any style of instrument or music, I love watching them. I think I would find the circus music genre to be fascinating in its history and practice. Good for you.

MTed, I have experienced the folkies in the DC/Baltimore area and have never found them to be closed or clannish. They are welcoming, and they are tolerant of diverse styles. I would recommend that you not take anyone else's opinion of these folks. You never know what has transpired. I say this from personal experience here in Michigan. A person who is a friend, and a respected musician, told me about a certain group (I am being vague on purpose here)that he indicated were very snobbish, blah, blah. I avoided these folks for a long time. Turns out that there was indeed one person with a very snobby attitude, you know the type. A master on their own instrument or very accomplished in their scholarship, and scornful of everyone who isn't. But the rest of the group are wonderful people and I am very upset that I listened to my friend because I could have been making music with these folks a lot earlier. That cost me in terms of my own musical journey. I still love my friend and love playing with him. But I resolved to make my own judgements on these things. Human nature is just to fickle to do anything else. Our own Mudcat is the greatest testament to that I have ever seen. I think you would love the DC area folkies. I know I do.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 May 01 - 01:30 PM

Three accordions in a band? No--I play guitar and other similar instruments(for Balkan Music, I played Tamburica)--

Ted

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 01 - 01:22 PM

M. Ted, Do you play the accordion? I saw that you said you played in a band with accordionists, but I can't tell if you said you played yourself.

Carol

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 May 01 - 01:12 PM

Fortunato,

I moved to the DC area a couple years ago, but my time has been heavily committed, and so I haven't really connected with the folk music scene here--I am disheartened to hear that it is as narrow as you say, since I had always heard that it was a fairly diverse sort of deal--I am also curious as to what instrument that you play, and what sort of music--

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 08 May 01 - 12:55 PM

Now it's only Hare you gotta worry about, Bert!

Skipjack

PS Cags, you know I'm on the same soapbox, you speak for me too.

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Bert
Date: 08 May 01 - 12:47 PM

Burke, Thanks.

Actually I wasn't at all offended, I knew exactly what you meant and deliberately took it wrong just for fun. (And Mudcatters get automatic forgiveness anyway, especially the pretty ones.)

I wasn't wanting to identify anyone and I'm really sorry that you identified the occasion. It was just a story that I used to try to cheer Carol up a little, and wasn't intended against you.

Thanks again for the apology. What a great person you are. Hope to sing with you again soon and I hope that you are still my friend.

Love Ya.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 01 - 12:13 PM

P.S. Fortunato, what kind of music and musical instruments are you playing that the DC folkies don't like?

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 01 - 12:07 PM

I think I'll write more later, but I just want to say, this is great!

Keep it up, guys!

Fortunato, I'm practically in your back yard! I live about an hour and a half away from you in Shepherdstown, WV, and my father lives in Wheaton (soon to be moving to Leasure World). I'll be down there for my son's high school graduation in early June. I'll PM when I know more details.

Carol

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 May 01 - 10:21 AM

This is the first thread that I recall where there have been discussions of the dreaded "Bulgarian" music, and some of you have heard. danced, and even played it--perhaps there is hope for Mudcat yet!

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: hesperis
Date: 08 May 01 - 10:19 AM

Hmmm... eeeenteresting!

That's the music I DON'T know how to play - odd-beated cool stuff... I even wrote something in 7/8, and find myself unable to finish it. (Of course, I had to make the thing syncopated, too... :shakes head: )

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 May 01 - 10:02 AM

I seem to recall that "Lassus Trombone" is an instrumental standard for circus music (and bands). Whether European or North American I don't know.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Fortunato
Date: 08 May 01 - 08:58 AM

Hi Carol C., it is I, Chance Shiver aka Fortunato.

I don't know where you live, but I am saddened that folk (or any) musicians anywhere would be exclusive or disencouraging. I think perhaps the discrimination you experience is rather like racial discrimation, it takes many forms and may be suble, yet damaging. Ethnic jokes are frowned upon by us but jokes about instruments are 'acceptable' somehow. Though I haven't made jokes about accordians, I have told a few banjo jokes. I meant no harm. But perhaps harm was done. I'm sorry I hadn't thought of the disencouragement, however subtle, that could occur. Thanks for making me think. I can relate somewhat. I have experienced a subtle, yet real ostracism by the folk community in Washington, DC. because I have played music and or instruments that some considered, not traditional or not folk. Though I have labored to provide venues for folk music in our town for 20 years, volunteered for years at our festival and served on the commitees, my performing is largely ignored by the folk community here. One pays a price for pushing the edges of genre to bring new life into the experience.(Or perhaps they just don't like it!) I encourage you to bring European circus music further into the folk tradition. Please PM me if you are near or come to Washington DC. I would like it if you would come to our house and make music us.

kind regards, Chance

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: John P
Date: 08 May 01 - 08:27 AM

I actually got up the nerve to take my accordion to a music party recently. There were a couple of box players there and we sat around playing Breton tunes, French bourrees, some Dutch tunes, and a bizarre Basque dance that one of the box players taught us. I was pleased to see that everyone else at the party thought the whole squeezebox trio thing was very cool.

The Balkan tunes in 7, 11, 13, etc. work especially well on the accordion, I think because of the way that the instrument can provide bass notes, chords, melody, and a strong rhythmic pulse all at the same time. The tunes in odd time signatures can get a bit, well, odd if they are not grounded in a strong rhythm.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 01 - 01:27 AM

Thanks everyone who has provided moral support, stories, or information about accordions and/or circus music on this thread. Thanks, bert, for providing a thread to do it on.

Now, about those singer/songwriters... *BG*

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 May 01 - 10:35 PM

There is a very good accordionist in Juneau that I enjoy listening to but I would never play with - he's way over my head. However, on occasion he plays with us at a session (there is a difference!) and there's no problem at all. He blends right in and takes great breaks. He's never officious or overwhelming.

One time I attended an International Folk Dance recital- and Dale was doing the live music. At one point, he said, "Now this next tune is Bulgarian and there are 11 beats to the measure." I thought, Wow!

A few minutes later, he said, "Now this next one is a Hungarian tune and it has 13 beats to the measure but no problem, I'll just add two more."

I gave up trying to count.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: jets
Date: 07 May 01 - 09:35 PM

As I have said before ,the only people who do not like accordions are those who play stringed instruments. I play the accordion in two diffrent bands. One plays European music .The other ,contra dance but my greatest joy is Busking. Last week I was asked to play on a regular bassis.as many times a week as I care to in the area of ten shops who would contribute to the hat to make it worth my time. This contribution would be over and above what I would normaly collect in the hat. Let me tell you;People ( there customers ) love accordion music.

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Burke
Date: 07 May 01 - 07:25 PM

I'd like to apologize to bert & the others who I offended in the way I talked about singer songwriters at WYSIWYG's. In fact, bert, I did not recognize you as a singer songwriter. I also do not dislike all singer songwriters & I think that anything anyone does in a song circle situation is fine.

~ B ~

Now, about those accordions. ;-)

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 May 01 - 06:08 PM

Carol, I forgot to mention that we have a grand LP of the Scottish Wick Dance Band with one or two accordionists playing on every tune. It's in storage or I'd get the name for you. Lots of dance music on there.

Also, our own Sam Pirt, who's visiting soon, with Bill Sables, is a well known young accordion-player in the UK. I think there is a picture of him on the Resources Page.

kat

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: fat B****rd
Date: 07 May 01 - 02:43 PM

I wouldn't think many people would have given Rockin' Dopsie or Clifton Chenier any grief about their choice of instrument. And for whatever reason I find it fascinating that anybody wants info on Circus Music. More power to you. Carol C.

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 May 01 - 02:33 PM

One reason some people are prejudiced against the accordion is...they haven't the ghost of an idea how to play the thing! It's the intimidation factor.

Then too, some are afraid that it will put their back out...or worse...make them flat-chested! :-)

Then there are some who fear being seen as having Mafia connections...

But this is as nothing compared to the paranoia surrounding bagpipes, and there is absolutely no truth to the rumour that you must wear a kilt to stay on key while playing one!

- LH

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 May 01 - 02:18 PM

Carol C,

You can have great fun with an accordion. The lead musician with our morris side has been playing for country dances for 40 years, and is pretty damn good. If he's in a session and someone needs taking down a peg he just does some really well-known tune, but in Eb or B or some other key the pissy D/G box-players can't handle. Their faces are a treat when they realise what's happening.

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Peter T.
Date: 07 May 01 - 01:56 PM

Carol, I used to get lost in the Paris circus when I was a kid -- does that make me an expert? They used to play all sorts of things -- many of them were Strauss waltzes, music from Carmen, Saint-Saen's Carnival of the Animals, sometimes even Disney (they would show Mickey Mouse cartoons while they were putting up the tiger cages), only all done with brass and often organ. Very eclectic. Certainly the Fellini music is great pastiche. yours, Peter

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 May 01 - 01:16 PM

Carol,

I spent about five years in a band with two accordionists--no one dared to make fun, because we were loud and there were a lot of us--

Funnyily enough, accordion is much more cool than it used to be--I think the bad reputation came about simply because in the sixties in America, it got associated with the old fashioned, "square" kinds of music(which, in the sixties, included everything but what was popular right that minute)--from the mid 40's on, the accordion, especially the electrified version, became a standard accompaniment for popular singers because plugged in, and accompanied by a drummer, and with maybe a sax or guitar, it was possible for a good player to approximate the fullness of a recorded arrangements--and still travel light--

If you've every seen footage of say, The Andrews Sisters, in WWII USO shows, you'll know what I mean--

Anyway, the Fellini movie music was mostly written by Nino Rota--there are a number of soundtrack CD's available, and also several different CD's that I have seen which are collections of the most famous title songs from Fellini movies--You really should see a few of his films--"La Strada" about a circus strongman and his relationship with a young girl( a Chapliesque mime) who is traded to him-- is one of the greatest movies of all time--Also, you should see "The Clowns" which is a documentary about, well, clowns--

Another movie with the kind of music you want (though not a Fellini movie) is Marcel Carne's :Children of Paradise", coincidentally, it is also about a mime, this one a man, who goes from preforming in the streets of 1840's Paris to peforming in the theatre and has a tragic romance, also, coincidentally, this is another of the greatest films of all time. The soundtrack is also available--anyway, you can't lose here, great music and great movies about great characters who are misunderstood (just like us!) let them laugh at your music--you are the one who gets to experience great art!

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 01 - 01:00 PM

Anytime I hear someone play the accordion well I'm green with envy and dumb with wonder. Nil carborandum.

As for "circus music" - I was up at the May Day in Standon in Hertfordshire, and wandered into the church. An organist sat down at the controls of the massive new pipe organ they've installed there. And then instead of the expected type of music you get on church organs, out came this incredible macro-decibel circus music, played full blast. Memorable. You don't hear a pipe-organ kicking it's heels up like that very often.

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: RWilhelm
Date: 07 May 01 - 12:41 PM

Northshore, Massachusetts. With a few caveats accordions are welcome here. If it is appropriate to the song, if the player is at least halfway decent, if the instrument is in tune, then everyone seems to enjoy it. A mediocre guitar player won't be noticed but a mediocre accordion (or banjo or bodhran) can be a problem, hence the jokes. On the other hand, an accomplished European accordion player would leave us all in the dust. Fun to listen to but hard to play with.

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Ruthie A
Date: 07 May 01 - 12:30 PM

Long live the accordionists! I'm not one personally, but I have aspirations,hehehe... I sing my own songs though! Does that count? Try having people in a very snobbish wind band laughing at you for saying you prefer Irish flute to concert flute. And the looks of disgust I get in even more snobby orchestra meetings for saying I don't play violin, I play fiddle are actually quite amusing. I like the 'unpopular' instruments. They give folk a distinctive folk sound, rather than classically trained people playing something collected by Percy Grainger.

Ruthie

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 01 - 11:58 AM

"Don't run off with the circus."

--LR Mole

*grin*

They probably wouldn't have me. So I guess you're stuck with me.

Alex, I agree with you.

Earl, whereabouts do you live? Where I live, accordions are very much not welcome in folk circles. Paul Oorts, (from Belgium) who plays beautiful European music on his continental chromatic box, comes up here with his wife, Karen Ashbrook, from time to time.

I'm always bugging him to take out his box and play it. Whenever there are other musicians around playing mostly hammered dulcimers, guitars, and mandolins, it's almost impossible to get him to do it. He gets a lot of pressure to play the plucked stringed instrument of his that I can't remember the name of. If he does ever take the box out to play it, he looks pretty sheepish, and he gets some dirty looks from people.

Carol

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 01 - 11:41 AM

Good one, Bartholomew... *G*

M Ted... Boy do I wish I could spend some time picking your brain.

Actually nationality isn't as important to me as the sound. Both the Italian circus music you described as well as the Scandinavian children's circus music sound exactly like what I'm looking for. I also would probably love circus music with an eastern European sound.

I really envy you that you were able to hear this stuff live.

As far as the time period is concerned, I think I would love whatever was being used in the last couple of centuries. Just not the modern stuff, like Cirque du Soliel etc.

I don't know enough about European circuses to be able to say what type.

Do you think if I got hold of film scores from some Filini films (if it is possible to do so), I might be able to find out what sources they used as inspiration?

Thanks, bert, for starting this thread! This is great stuff!

Carol

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: RWilhelm
Date: 07 May 01 - 11:35 AM

I have always found accordion welcomed in folk circles.

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 May 01 - 11:35 AM

Thanks Kat. The computer problem is, I can pop up lists of possibilities when I search, but the CPU slowness and unreliability of the phone lines, with getting knocked off, make following the links for long impractical. So I always appreciate a hand getting things narrowed down, more than you might know.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: mousethief
Date: 07 May 01 - 11:32 AM

Speaking strictly as an accordion ignoramus, let me say that perhaps the reason so many people denigrate this instrument is that they've only ever heard "Lady of Spain" and other such songs played on it; they've never heard any real authentic folk stuff.

Singer-songwriter Al Stewart uses a lot of accordion on his albums/CDs, and I've begun to appreciate the multikeyed squeezebox far more than I ever would have, had he not done so.

Hold your chin up, Carol C. There are some who think that if it's not in Child, it's not folk. But these people usually die of constipation so they're hardly the people you want to mold your life after.

Alex

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: LR Mole
Date: 07 May 01 - 11:28 AM

This is the second message I wrote and the screen saver spirited away. The first one was reasoned and soothing, and was about noms de chat. The second one was to you, complaining about the first one being eaten. I truly enjoy the 'cat, and its many far-flung correspondents. (I think that you, all by yourself, have defused the whole accordion-joke threat. Which may be too bad, because there are some good ones). And as for all this assuming of noms, flaming, and hiding behind GUEST tags, well, the world is too much with us, anyway. The format usually lets us dodge the foolinshess. Don't run off with the circus.

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 May 01 - 11:13 AM

A bit late here Carol--You didn't mention what part of Europe you wanted circus music from, or what time period--or what kind of circus--as a small child, I lived in Italy, and remember the circus music as having sounded much like the music from Fellini movies(an intentional effect in the Fellini movies, I always thought) which is to say, they were striking. lilting melodies, often in a minor key, with a driving dance pulse, often a tarentella or a tango--the melodies could be traditional tunes, but often were popular songs from an older time(operatic marches count as popular songs, as well, at least in Italy)--

About ten or twelve years ago, I saw a small Scandinavian children's circus that had a band which sounded like I remembered the Italian carnival music--it had a trombone, trumpet, saxophone, drum, accordian and violin, and they were wonderful--

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 07 May 01 - 10:00 AM

Darn, I posted this to the wrong thread, so I'll paste it here, too.

Carol C. - My grandfather played the concertina. My uncle played the accordion. My mother actually gave accordion lessons. My father played the trombone. My sister plays the banjo and her daughter the bodran. I myself am a singer-songwriter.

I'm relieved to know that it's genetic; I always feared it was a hygiene problem. . .

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Naemanson
Date: 07 May 01 - 08:38 AM

People need to remember that people like Stan Rogers and Woody Guthrie were singer/songwriters. So, Bert, keep that well in mind when you hear people dismissing the singer/songwriter.

And there ARE jokes about singer/songwriters. Do you know the difference between a singer/songwriter and a puppy? Eventually the puppy will quit whining. <|;-)

Not much of a joke but....

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: gnu
Date: 07 May 01 - 07:15 AM

Amergin... do you get those looks, too ? I used to be shy about it, even in my truck with the windows rolled up. Nowadays, I have taken to enjoying the variety of looks I get. When I get the really odd or concerned looks, I give em a nod or shrug my shoulders and smile. I guess some people just can't believe one can be happy (rude ? (of course, I don't sing loudly)) enough to whistle or sing in public.

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 May 01 - 02:46 AM

Susan, I saw lots of stuff that looked likely on google just using the words "christian polka music"...up too late, so didn't explore them all. Here's one which might be helpful: Article about them

Carol, you're welcome, hope they help. I think we all are up too late!**BG**

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 01 - 02:46 AM

Thanks for those,kat/katlaughing. Theye look interesting. I think I'll check them out after I get a good night's sleep. Thanks again.

Carol

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 01 - 02:43 AM

But realize also that another form of folk art exists at Mudcat and that is the art of multiple author story telling. Personally I love it and think that it's just as valid an art form as traditional singing. Unfortunately others seem to view it as BS.

Thanks, bert. I feel the same way. I also would include humor as a valid form of folk art.

I've been looking at the various sides of these debates, and it looks to me like the one element that is missing, and that could make smoother sailing for everyone, is consideration for others. I see it lacking when singer/songwriters are told to their faces "I don't like singer/songwriters". I also see it lacking when serious musical discussions are not given appropriate consideration.

I love the BS and the humor. I participate in it regularly. I'd hate to have that part of the Mudcat eliminated.

Conversely, I was in a very informative discussion on an accordion thread recently when someone who was giving information told a poster to submit further inquiries about the subject of the thread by PM so the discussion wouldn't come under further attack by people who were making fun. Personally, I can handle the humor. But when my access to good sources of information feel the need to go underground because of it, that pisses me off. (In the American sense.)

So I think maybe there's plenty of counter-productive behavior being displayed on both sides of the discussion. Maybe if we look at it that way, we can agree on a way to treat each other with kindness and consideration. I sure hope so. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like that's what you're saying, as well.

Carol

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 May 01 - 02:27 AM

Kat, you are amazing. Now if you could find me the music I hoped Crowhugger would find me-- Christian Polka Music. I am not kidding. It's out there. I can't find it, but I have heard it is a real form.

Bert, the songs are NOT in the lacy knickers drawer, so get the heck outta there! *G* Next gathering, what, yer gonna conduct a supersearch? Better bring a warrant. And a police woman, since I'm so ticklish in those full body searches! And quit brandishing that Ma-Sooz-a-Phone!

~S~

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 May 01 - 02:21 AM

Carol, here are several, fairly extensive sites you might be able to find music at, or at least information on the trad. music of European circuses. It all looks pretty interesting and, in fact, I found an important site which I think warrants its own thread, too, so I will be double-posting it. It is the first one, though probably not as relevant for your purposes as some of the others:

Worldwide Internet Music Resources INCREDIBLE!!!

some info on circus music

an off-shoot of the first one; over 300 listings with links.

LOTS of Circus Links if you scroll down. This one looks as though it might be really helpful.

Hope this helps,

kat

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Bert
Date: 07 May 01 - 02:14 AM

Shame on you Deni. As I said before "...you must shamelessly plug your own songs at all times."

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Bert
Date: 07 May 01 - 02:12 AM

"...I just wish we could be nice to each other and enjoy the music..." Ah! Right you are there Carol.

But realize also that another form of folk art exists at Mudcat and that is the art of multiple author story telling. Personally I love it and think that it's just as valid an art form as traditional singing. Unfortunately others seem to view it as BS.

There is plenty of room for everyone; it's just that some people seem to want an exclusively scholarly site.

WYSI, LOCKED UP is worse than HIDDEN, at least we could try to find them if they were hidden *BG*

Bert

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 01 - 01:54 AM

*Grin*

My first post to the Mudcat forum was in search of sheet music for instrumental music that would have been played in European circuses. So far, no one even knows what sort of music that would be, so I have not been successful in finding any. I'd still love to find some, if there is such a beast.

Bert, I appreciate your words. I'm not sad that no one knows about the music I'm looking for. I'm a little sad that some people are having such a hard time appreciating those who occupy different musical niches than themselves. I love the musical variety this site has to offer. Both the strictly defined form of folk music, as well as the singer/songwriters. And especially the obscure forms of music that have yet to be talked about like European circus music.

I guess I just wish we could be nice to each other and enjoy the music.

Carol

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Deni
Date: 07 May 01 - 01:48 AM

Looks like you are all suffering from the same thing as I am. My husband and I write our own songs, but if Ned wants us to perform one, I usually choose to do traditional because that's my favourite, (and of course if people don't like it, I'm not responsible for it!)

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 May 01 - 01:39 AM

:P* to you Bert!

*G*

And they are not HIDDEN, they are LOCKED UP!

CarolC, what kinda songs you talkin' about?

~S~

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Bert
Date: 07 May 01 - 01:35 AM

Carol, most of us (I was going to say at Mudcat but I think it's anywhere) are just singers. There are very few serious folk collectors around. In some ways that's sad because a lot of old songs get lost. But we each have to do what we can and do what we have time for.

It's difficult for a lot of us to talk about folk songs because many of us are not that knowledgable. We know a few songs and sing them the best we can. Most threads about songs don't seem to last very long because the knowledge just isn't there. But when it comes to BS we can make it up as we go along.

Just start some threads about the songs you like, and we'll fill in what we know, but as I said that's often precious little. Just keep plugging away at it.

WYSI, you're in DEEP trouble now. Don't think that you'll ever get away with HIDING your songs again *BG* That's a reall Mudcat NO-NO. The only rule us singer/songwriters have, is that you must shamelessly plug your own songs at all times.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 01 - 01:14 AM

Thanks for the kind words and invitations guys. A lot of them were posted while I was typing, and I didn't see them until after I posted.

Carol

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 May 01 - 01:11 AM

Yes, we know you are not fishing, but there it is anyway, Bert, you are a charming addition to any songcircle.

Besides, if you keep it up-- this songwriting and singing habit-- I may even haul out some that I have written, someday.

~S~

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 01 - 01:10 AM

Well, bert, I have to say that sometimes I get pretty confused about it all.

On the one had, you've got people like me who play traditional music. But I can't find anyone who wants to talk about the kind of traditional music that I play.

Then, on the other hand, you've got threads about songs like 'The World is Old' which a lot of people are interested in, but which doesn't fall into the strict definition of folk music.

This issue is starting to make my head spin.

When I was working one summer as an interpretive naturalist, I came across a group of birders who were watching several birds (Woodcock) wading in a small pond. The birders all had spotting scopes. One of the birders said, "Oh! Come look in my scope! I count eight birds!" Another birder replied, "Oh, don't be silly! Come look in my scope! I only count seven!"

Good luck with your situation, bert. You have my sympathy.

Carol

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Bert
Date: 07 May 01 - 01:06 AM

I wasn't fishing! HONEST! I was just trying to cheer Carol up a little, in a lightheared way.

Thanks Kat, that is a great song I still sing it now and then when the time is right, and I sing it for myself when I'm alone in the car.

And Thanks WYSI. I sure had a good time at your place and I'm glad you liked Bathing Angel (also known as The Toenail Song). It would be great if Carol could bring her squeezebox next time.

I used to know this accordian player one time who was giving us an informal lecture on music theory. He was talking about the time signature when someone asked him yo play the same tune in 2/4, 3/4, 4/4 and 6/8 time. he thought for half a minute and started. He played Irish Washerwoman in each different time. Absolutely amazing.

Bert

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 May 01 - 12:53 AM

Bert, you can sing about trimmed toenails at our house any time!

And CarolC, our Gathering was the poorer for lack of an accordion and accordionist.

I thought we shouldda had some bodhran playing too but apparently my washboard playing discouraged it. Next time I will not only play it louder to encourage percussion but I WILL find the dang Therapeutic Claves and ring 'em through the echoing hills!

Thus the need for the accordion will only become more acute... and Bert and his toenails will have to return as well.

~S~

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 May 01 - 12:47 AM

Bert, you were one of the very first Mudcatters to contact me, personally, and it was about the song I wrote for Colorado, after Columbine. Up to that point it was just a poem...until you sweetly asked me if I had a tune for it. You made me feel so good and so valid! Especially, when we later sang it to one another over the phone. I didn't know how lowly we singer/songwriters were until much later when I naively asked: what's so bad about singer/songwriters?.

Carol, that was a lovely waltz you played in the Outpost Tavern!

kat

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Amergin
Date: 07 May 01 - 12:39 AM

i write lyrics...then sing them while i walk around town....drunk or sober...

Subject: RE: Message to CarolC
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 07 May 01 - 12:36 AM

Oh, no, Bert, I write songs and I'm learning to play the accordion!

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: Message to CarolC
From: Bert
Date: 07 May 01 - 12:29 AM

CarolC said...

"I play an unpopular instrument. There aren't many people who want to talk about my instrument. When I get into a serious discussion about my instrument with other mudcatters, people feel perfectly free to turn my serious musical discussion into a joke because they feel my instrument is a joke."

I didn't want to refresh that other thread so I thought I'd talk about your dilemma here.

You and the banjo and bodhran players can take comfort from the fact that you are not the lowest in the pecking order. You should try being a singer/songwriter. They don't even bother to make jokes about us, they just speak up and are downright rude right to our faces.

I was at a sing once when a person just up and said "I don't like singer/songwriters" knowing full well that about half of us there wrote at least some of our own songs.

Of course I exacted terrible revenge by singing only my own songs for the rest of that session.

So cheer up love!

Bert.