Folksingers who are research historians?

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 01:06 AM

Riverblue,

The folk club called the BLUE RIVER CAFE was in Milwaukee. Were you there too? Chicago and Milwaukee got just about 3 feet of snow over a couple of days and I somehow took a Greyhound bus to Milwaukee from Chicago and walked through that blizzard down the middle of the street (no cars were moving) to get to that Blue River gig. That was the night I started to think of the road life a bit negatively. Good in looking back though--to paraphrase Utah Phillips.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 12:49 AM

It sounds like you have the tapes made by Steve Powers when he ran the club in that old synogogue named Charlotte's Web in Rockford. (Named for his sister, Charlotte, who had been killed in a tragic auto accident.) There are tapes there by Steve Goodman, Leon Redbone, myself, Tom Dundee, Richard (then Dick) Pinney, Brian Bowers, Ron Nigrini, maybe even Bill Monroe 'cause I opened the show for him and the Bluegrass Boys one poorly attended night. Bill and Karen Howard owned the place. First a coffeehouse in those early days when your tapes were made. Later they had to go for a liquor license---to try to make money. One strange week I was working five nights for $125.00 opening for Biff Rose. Going back to the farmhouse where we folksingers were housed one super cold winter night, out in the country near Rockton, Steve, Biff and I had THREE flat tires in about 45 minutes. And it was all great. The whole folk scene was great. Glad I was there then.

BUT if you are talking about a different folk club in an old synagogue---well, never mind then...

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: riverblue
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 08:52 PM

How do I locate the strangers that have interesting boxes of letters in the attic, and how do I get them to lend them to me?

We have "interesting boxes" of live recordings from folk music performers that date back through 1972. They were professionally recorded in a great big old synagogue in Rockford,IL. It was a well known folk club for 30 years, somewhat like NYC's The Bottom Line. Some of these performers have passed on into folkmusic heaven, and have left behind legendary songs and stories, and live concerts that are up for the research about America, and American artistry!
visit: http://www.snapshotmusic.com

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Marion
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 08:15 PM

Hi everyone and thanks for your further input.

Thanks for your suggestions, M.Ted. I owe you a PM - I'll try to do that this week. What's a performance piece? Do you mean a play?

Art, I will look up Paul Durst. You said, I envy you if you are, as you sound, at the beginning. I've written about a dozen historical songs - a few of which I'm very happy with - and I like to think that that's just a beginning.

Thanks, Mike, for your PM and note here. And as long as we're talking about how to write the songs once the info is acquired, I like what Willie-O told me once: "Remember you're not testifying in court." One way I've found to resist the temptation to stuff everything I know into a song is to write more than one song about the same topic, or at least keep in mind that I always have the option of doing so.

Marion

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: GUEST,M. Ted
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 10:35 AM

RootsWeb has a lot of articles about town histories that are arranges on a state/county/town basis--
Here is letter that could easily be turned into a song--I found it at :

WORLD WAR I SERVICEMEN TOWN OF MANLIUS

(Extract from a letter written by Serg. R. N. Sudds, Col. L., 118th Infantry, August 29th, 1918:

"They, the Huns, got my best friend. Sergeant Ogilvie paid the price, but it cost them highly.
He found a machine gun and ammunition in the woods, near the front lines. He always was of a mechanical and ambitious turn of mind, so he lugs it up on the line and hides it for some fun. Well, a Hun machine gun out front had been bothering the whole outfit, and, as luck would have it, he spotted it. So he gets his gun in order and lets them have it. Well, that Hun gun never shot another round at us. The outfit on our right made an advance, and found only the officer alive out of the whole crew. They took him prisoner. The officer said a machine gun on the American side had suddenly cleaned out his whole crew. Ogilvie then went into his dug-out--a shallow pit. About fifteen minutes later, Fritz started shelling and trench mortar work. One of the trench mortar shells hit right in the foot of his dug-out and exploded. He yelled, 'Help, Boys,' and, despite the danger, half a dozen fellows went and gave him first aid, but he looked up at them and smiled and said: 'I am done for, boys, they got me.' He was buried in the evening. There were none but what regretted it, but, at the same time, it increased the determination to get Fritz, a hundred times. A lot of them found some Fritzes and simply lifted them off the earth the next time up. I am going to look for a few next time and get them too,"

The Wind Mill, St. John's School, December 1918, p. 13.

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: GUEST,MTed
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 07:07 PM

Good point, Julia! It reminds me that you should check out the "local interest" shelf in the local bookstores for local histories, books about local historical figures and events--I just happened to think about my little collection of books about the Bath School Disaster--one of them is a collection of old clippings and notes, copied and bound at Kinko's and sold in the the town drugstore--

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 05:08 PM

Check out your local library or historical society for old town histories. Here in Maine, some of these were written in the mid 1800's and relied on family anecdotes for content. They are chock full of goodies waiting to be made into songs
Cheers- Julia

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 01:56 PM

Bill Worsfold, here in New Zealand, is another who's written songs based on little known historical events.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: GUEST,MTed
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 12:11 PM

For those who do not know, Marion has her own vivid narrative style, and she brings her subjects to life wonderfully well--I think what she really wants is information on how people find interesting old material--diaries, letters, and various other sorts of original narrative documents--

I am working right now on a performance piece based on children's accounts of bullying and abuse taken from investigator's reports(I know we share an interest in the the terrible, the horrible, the pathetic, and the just plain depressing), this is material that I was offered by the people who gathered it, because they had an interest in getting it out, and they knew that I liked working with this sort of thing--

Someone also has approached me with the idea of turning a diary that they came across in an old attic into some sort of theatrical piece--this stuff was offered because I make it a point of telling people what I am interested in--(though I must say that, even though we have had a lot of discussion about it, I have only been given excerpts from the diary)--

If I was had more time to work, I would poke around in old book shops, flea markets, and such places looking for old letters and diaries, and I would also make the odd trip out to find old court records(Maryland has a lot of the records of civil legal proceedings, back to colonial times, on line--mostly summaries and judgments, but many things that are really, really interesting and amusing)--he theory being that you sort of have to become a collector and grab up whatever looks interesting, knowing that a lot of it is not going to be directly useful, and that some of the most interesting stuff, for one reason or another, you are not going to be able to find a way to use--

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:40 AM

I can't say that I do original historical research, except perhpas for the personal (family) history songs ... and I don't know of a song writer who does, but there may be some. Songwriting has a different purpose the does history - generally - my goal in telling a history in song is to pass on the personal/human issues shaped by a historical event or era. A history wants to feret out all the facts around that same era or event. In a song you wnat to say how an event impacted a life ... in a history you want to reconstruct the backdrop of that life.

Having said all that - one song I wrote was based upon the few facts I could find about an Irish immigrant family. I made up the the story based upon the original historical research from ship lists, enlistment lists and military records - that song is PRAYER FROM LITTLE ROUND TOP. Less history, more fiction - but original historical research.

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:39 PM

As a potter interested in what makes old pots so good I have found that researching provenence adds a ton to the meaning of a peice and in the same way knowing the "provenence" of a song adds a ton of meaning to the thing or brings more life to it . In that way most of us playing any form of "Traditional music" become researchers of a kind .

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Arkie
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:27 PM

I really like the way James Keelaghan approaches historical subjects. Charley Sandage, whom I mentioned earlier in this thread, does something similar. They personalize the event by presenting it in the view of someone who was there. While they are not the only ones to use that technique they use if quite well.

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 08:36 PM

As an example of one who was very important to me---one who actually WAS history personified---put the name "Paul Durst" into a Forum Search and read some of the things I learned from him.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 08:34 PM

The aspect of this that rings a bell with ME is that if you are going to sing a song , it is so often neccessary to give a degree of background , that the serious singer must needs do almost as much research as the writer ! But at least , as a singer , the research is
usually a lot easier !!

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 08:31 PM

Marion.

It's a l-o-n-g process---over many years. One thing leads you to another----one song to another----one singer to another---one city to another to another...

It seems that you have the right insincts!! Be happy with the process and cultivate patience; More will be revealed to you that way.---The ENTIRE road IS the GRAIL !!! Enjoy and marvel at the steps you take as you take them. This is a path to discovery and adventure of your own making. TRUST that path you make on your own---while following hints and breadcrumbs dropped by the mentors and heroes who mean the most to you---the ones who are great on their own. But do not copy note-for-note.

Invent your own cliches based on the cliches of those others; then you will have your own voice, your own style, your own vision that others can and will point to and say, YES, that is Marion."

I envy you if you are, as you sound, at the beginning. Enjoy the treasure hunt.

Art Thieme ;-)

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 08:25 PM

Hi Marion, as you mentioned, serendipity DOES play an important role. But once it has dropped a subject or idea in your lap, you must research the person or event thoroughly in order to create a good song. I have used libraries and internet websites extensively to find out facts and details of my subject matter. But I have also used first person interviews, letters and journals written by eye witnesses, and photographs taken at the time.

A song which tells of an historical event or person can easily get too long and overburdoned with unnecessary prattle. Always make sure you keep your song's plot focussed and concise. You have to try to give just a snapshot of the event which still captures and conveys the essence of the event to the listener. Historical songs are NOT easy to write, so keep the story as simple as possible with just enough facts to fill it out with color and texture. Edit your rough draft down to a razor sharp edge. Choose each word carefully and try to find fewer words to say the same thing. Edit, edit, edit until you can't edit any more.

I hope these comments help, kindest regards,

Mike

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Marion
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 06:43 PM

Hi gang, sorry for the delay in getting back to this thread. Thanks for the responses - I'd like to look some of these people up.

And I'd love to hear more detail from those of who you mention doing original research. How exactly do you go about it? As I mentioned, I've found that sometimes stories come looking for you, and the more you sing about oral history, the more people start talking to you about their own family history. But I'd be interested to know if there are more systematic methods of research within my reach, rather than just relying on serendipity.

Thanks, Marion

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 05:09 PM

Robbert Schmertz wrote great, historically accurte songs about Pittsburgh PA

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: silverfish
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:05 AM

Some of my songs are quite thoroughly researched, although I would have to say that very little of it actually comes out in the songs.

It's interesting and useful to have as full a mental picture of the subject before starting to set pen to paper. It's also useful to be able to give a short introduction quoting sources.

However, once all the writing, editing and revision is done to craft an interesting song from the historical tale - all the rest is discarded and the piece has to stand by itself as a finished work.

I know that I have sometimes combined tales of one incident with colourful characters of the same period but different locations in order to give a well-rounded picture of a particular historical period.

Some may consider this to be wrong and reprehensible, but that's how traditional tales evolve.

Not sure if this advances the discussion much, but that's real life!

Regards
silverfish

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 04:39 AM

Crane Driver has brought out a CD of his own work which are all based on local history and very 'trad'. Well worth hearing.

siân

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 04:18 AM

Georgina Boyes, manager of Coope, Boyes and Simpson and who performs with Fi Fraser and Jo Freya, is a well-respected historian and writer and winner of the Katharine Briggs Folklore award - The Imagined Village, her work on the English folk song revival, is a 'must read' for anyone interested in the perception of 'English culture' and folklore in the first half of the 20th century.

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 02:26 PM

collecting can take many forms but mostly it is a question of listening and being perspicatious (ooooer)

I was at a folk festival and Joe Latter got up and did one of his 200 memorised shanties and then prefaced the next song with a preamble about being taght it by a little old lady. The song screamed at me "collect" so I did. I now have a video of him singing, I went to the Bodleain and found nothing (books or music dept) asked three Military folklorists/historians and none knew of it, though Roy Palmer did come-up with a derivative snippet.

I also gave him a recording of Robert Graves from telly - singing a distinctly different version of the Old Barbed Wire.

There are other things, some of which may have been documented but not quite as I heard it. Again I just leapt onto a suggestion of "collectable" and in those cases it was worth it. Sometimes it leads nowhere but there are still things to be found apart from what we "the Folk" do in this day and age. Who knows what the future will find interesting?

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Arkie
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 11:04 AM

Cathy & Dave Para and Bob Dyer have created some memorable music on their Civil War and Lewis and Clark CDs as Big Jim has said. Another Ozark writer who deserves far more recognition than he has yet to receive is Charlie Sandage. Charlie has focused in recent years on Arkansas stories and thus the name of three CDs of well crafted and singable songs on such subjects as the Sultana, an earthquake that shook off the northeast corner of Arkansas and deposited it in Missouri (look at an Arkansas map)and many personal stories based on actual folk. More information can be found here: Arkansas Stories

The music is performed by Harmony, who were among the finalists in Prairie Home Companion's competition several years ago. Anyone looking for compelling music based on historic incidents will find a real treasure here which one does not necessarily have to be from Arkansas to appreciate.

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 01:23 AM

Larry Penn wrote and does many songs like those being talked about too. Songs like his "KATE SHELLEY". Tells the story of the young girl who took her dad's old railroad lantern and walked across a high long railroad bridge over the Des Moines River in a driving rain in Iowa to warn the Midnight Mail Train that the bridge over Honey Creek had been washed out. She saved hundreds of lives and became a true hero. I believe the railroad workers union is named the Kate Shelley Local to this day. The only rail union named for a woman. I think this happened back in the 1880s---but I might be wrong.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 08:10 PM

Fred Gosbee and I (Castlebay) often write about local Maine history and legend. We also work in schools to help kids wriet songs about their local history. They dig up the stories, sometimes interviewing the elders, we coach them in the songwriting then it's all presented in a public concert. Christopher Shaw used to do this in the Adirondacks where there's a story under every doorstep. It's a great way for kids to relate to the elders, process info, and understand their local history and the fact that we are all part of history.

As far as getting people to lend you their diaries etc, they need to feel secure and trusting about it. We recently had a public event that honored the local elders and their stories. Once they realized that people were actually interested they were very forthcoming.
Establishing an ongoing relationship with the local retirement facility by volunteering might be fruitful.
Good luck

Julia

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 04:19 PM

I've done a fair amount of firsthand research to use in song. Utah Phillips does also, in fact, he used to be the State Archivist in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: GUEST,(where's my cookie?) countess richard
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 03:13 PM

Guest above was me.

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 03:11 PM

Songs on Fairport Convention's concept album Babbacombe Lee were based on contemporary accounts that Dave Swabrick found in a Torquay junk shop about John Lee, the man they couldn't hang.

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: GUEST,DHL
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 02:23 PM

If you are seeking ways by which scholars and researchers go about their business of collecting information you should check out the 26th annual Sea Music Festival and Symposium at Mystic Seaport. This year the Festival runs June 9,10,11,12. The Symposium is on Sat. the 11th. Typically the researchers are also the festival performers.

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 01:35 AM

Alaska Mike here on the 'Cat has written & recorded several well-researched songs
Among them: Little Jim and Wilderness Letters, First Kill.
And I second Jed Marum.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 08:51 PM

I would also suggest John Warner of Australia, for composing his fine historical ballads. I believe he does some of his own research.

James Keelaghan of Canada and Jez Lowe, UK, also compose fine historical ballads but I'm not sure how much original research they do.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Ferrara
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 08:48 PM

Jed Marum is another songwriter who tries to work from historical sources.

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Big Jim from Jackson
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 08:29 PM

Cathy Barton, Dave Para, and Bob Dyer Have collaberated on a couple of Civil War albums that feature some good research on their part. In addition, they have put out an album of songs concerning the Lewis and Clark Expidition. Really good stuff.

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Cats
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 06:13 PM

Cornwall Songwriters last two efforts, Cry of Tin and Unsung Heroes were researched by the writers. When we did the research for Unsung Heroes, we spent hours pouring over the books at Heligan looking at day books, garden manuals etc. For Cry of Tin the songwriters spent hours down mines and going through museum documentation. Jon frequently writes from his own research. When I did Spirit in the Storm, the True story of Joan Wytte, I spent hours at the witchcraft museum in Boscastle. So, what's next... next Tuesday we are booked into the Public Records office in Truro trying to find out more about our new (very old) house and why the Manor for which it is the Dower House, disappeared. With 406 years of history there has to be a song or two there!

Subject: RE: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 04:15 PM

I have been known to write from experience and history, I've researched my family tree for 20 years, got back 300 years with links to the Titanic (possibly, we think he jumped at Belfast), lost 3 family members in the same action in WWI (Battle of Jutland), and lived in a village that has a tradition that is rapidly dying out (Garland day)... all of these things have gone into songs. I just haven't sung them yet.

LTS

Subject: Folksingers who are research historians?
From: Marion
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 03:39 PM

Many modern songwriters who fit into the folk tradition write about true history, and these are the kinds of songs I especially like to hear and write. Most of the information that I use comes from books of oral history - letters, diaries, memoirs, or interviews - that have been collected and published by historians.

What I want to know is: are there many folkish songwriters who are out there doing the interviews or rooting through the letters themselves, rather than using information collected by an historian? If so, who are they?

There have been a few times that I've used unpublished oral history as a basis for my songs - my aunt's memoirs of my grandmother, and my friend's account of her grandfather's stories. And once, after hearing one of my historical songs, a Mudcatter sent me some old family letters which included an eyewitness account of Lincoln's funeral, and a description of a meal with General LaFayette (though I haven't done anything with them yet). So certainly you can get some of this stuff through connections and word of mouth. But I'm curious about the possibility of looking for it in a more systematic way, and learning about the methods used by historians to uncover new knowledge. How do I locate the strangers that have interesting boxes of letters in the attic, and how do I get them to lend them to me?

Thanks, Marion