BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 12:30 PM

Thanks Mick for saying what I wanted to say too. Welcome Kirsten. The substance of what you say may go down well here. The style may need a bit of working on!

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 10:02 AM

Kirsten, the GUEST from the North calls me a bully because I give her a dose of her own medicine.

As to your entry here, sincerely I say welcome. You represent a certain viewpoint that certainly will add to the stew. Personally I would suggest that you incorporate your views into the discussion in a more community oriented way. I apologize for critiquing, but you came on like this place was an online journal. It is more like a conversation. Take it for what it is worth.

I believe that Mudcat is best when the debate is spirited and passionate. That can be done and remain civil. You will find many here with varying amounts of agreement for your point of view. You will find many that disagree mightily.   Reaching those that agree with you isn't tough. But causing those that disagree to ponder well presented arguments is. And much more satisfying.

Thanks for joining. I look forward to the debate.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 09:25 AM

You can definitely get those cakes without marrying...and it's much less trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 08:42 AM

Addicted to cakes with marzipan on them to be truthfull, didn't know you could get them without getting married first. Sort of like comparing almond paste with monogamy innit?
G ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 08:31 AM

That's just plain greedy or insanity.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 06:44 AM

I'm very much in favour of female equality with males, for too many years I've been dominated by them.
Giok [3 ex-wives!]

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 06:09 AM

Clenhed fists also indicate anger and threats.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 03:42 AM

Her website is at www.kirstenanderberg.com

It's a little hard on the eyes...too much black and red graphics for my taste...but there's some interesting stuff there. And a whole lot of clenched fists too. Clenched fists indicate radicalism, don't they? ;-) (they also indicate fear, manifesting as defiance and potential aggression)

You know what's truly radical? Being willing to love without casting judgement. THAT's radical.

Kirsten, I am puzzled about your membername. You appear to have one, but when I try to PM it in order to advise you of the perils of not logging in when you post, it doesn't seem to work. Strange...

Are you or are you not a member of this forum?

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 03:34 AM

Someone who keeps forgetting to log in here, even though she does have a membername. She also has a website. Very radical. Oooooo....she's angry about a lotta stuff! Do a google and check it out. If anger was worth money, Kirsten would be too rich to busk. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 03:23 AM

OK for the benfit of poor Yorkshireman WHO is Kirsten Anderberg ?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 03:19 AM

Now I realize, Kirsten, that you DO have a membername here...but...you appear to also be posting as a Guest on various occasions.

Guest, kirsten

Guest, kirsten anderberg

Etc...

So, what are we to assume by that? Are you not bothering to log in or is former Mudcat member psycho-bitch with a chip on her shoulder pretending to BE you? Or is bored-stiff-in-Poughkeepsie pretending to be you while he waits for his pizza to arrive? Or is someone else pretending to be you?

Well, one has to wonder, doesn't one?

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 03:09 AM

Kirsten...are you aware that as a non-member of Mudcat, who posts as a "Guest"...anyone whatsoever can, if they wish, come onto this forum anonymously and post supposedly AS YOU? All they have to do is open this or any other thread, type out their chosen comments, and then type the name "kirsten anderberg" in the little "from" box...and

voila!

You have just been impersonated by someone else. Someone who might say... "I am deeply sorry for being such an asshole, and I apologize to all of you. My articles really are not that good, and I am terminally vain and have been trying to get help for it, so please pardon me. I will try not to stir up any more trouble here."

Anyone can do that, Kirsten. It's as easy as flicking the mud off your jeans. Your posts have little credibility, because there's no way for anyone here to know if they really came FROM you!

What I would advise, therefore, is that you either JOIN the forum, and get a membername, in which case people will not be able to impersonate you here...OR...face the fact that your posts may be not emanating from you AT ALL. Regardless of what they say or don't say.

Does this give you a clue as to why "Guests" lack credibility here to some extent? Specially malicious Guests whose only mission in life is to cause pain to other people, and delude themselves that they have a moral imperative to do so...because they are "better" than those people?

The "Kirsten Anderberg" show so far has been:

1. a farce
2. but somewhat amusing, at least

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 02:15 AM

Wow Kirsten, you certainly have more credentials than any other Mudcatter busker. Have you read any of the other busking threads? Have you written anything on the fun and interest of busking?

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 02:02 AM

windy, my my.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 11:59 PM

I gotta admit I am flattered at the speed of my demise here! I think this is the fastest flaming I have ever seen! I hope to be a record breaker here generating comments! LOL!

Charmion, you ask -
"Kirsten, what do you play?"
Which reminds me of an old Roche Sisters song where the lyrics say something like "Have you sung with anyone famous?" then they site people like Paul Simon for validity...

I have played classical violin for 35 years, I play slide guitar, regular guitar, washboard...I was the washboard player and lead vocalist in Seattle Swing...We opened for Dan Hicks, etc.

"What is your singing voice like?"
I am considered one of the best voices ever on the streets of Seattle, according to the locals. I have many letters from local performers telling me that I have an exceptional voice and I have made many a performer sob with my singing as well. I have a solid following for my music and voice among NW performers, from the Karamozov Brothers, to Amber Tide, to Baby Gramps, to Artis the spoonman, to jim page...all of them have complimented me on my music and voice in the past 3 decades...I believe Reggie Miles here at mudcat cafe would also validate this, that I have one of the strongest voices of all women ever on the streets in Seattle...I am loud, strong, with a wide range and able to harmonize, on pitch naturally, wide range of tone, etc...I have won vocal scholarships in every school I have been in, I won vocal applied music scholarships in opera in college, I was the lead in all musicals in high school, I have been the lead singer in many bands, including my own duo Raw Sugar. I have been a backup singer in one of Seattle's most famous motown revues, Annie Rose and the Thrillers, I have sung with many famous singers such as Laura Love, Jan Luby, Rebo Flordigan...I was asked by Neil Young to open for him in Santa Cruz when he saw me busking out front...I was asked by June Millington to go on tour with her after she heard me sing at a Univ of Santa Cruz Women's Festival...

"Have you written any songs?"
My songs are actually legendary...my song Great Big Belly about birth control is a classic that people request constantly for decades, as well as other hits like Myth in Genesis, Message From the Media, etc...they have been sung around the campfires at the Michigan Women's Music Festival for two decades. My original music has produced reams of fan mail from women and men telling them that my music has profoundly influenced their lives...and I have sold an insane amount of cassette tapes on the street in my earlier years, Jim Goettler says that me and my partner in Raw Sugar were the FIRST street band in Seattle to sell cassettes on the street and that may well be...we began doing it in 1984. By 1985, every street band around us had them after watching us sell them hand over fist. I still sell CDs...I have created a ton of comedy pieces as well..I have played with Europe's Golden Nose Award winning clown Hacki, I have performed with many vaudevillians doing comedy skits onstage as well...I have closed the elitist Midnight Show at the Oregon Country Fair as a solo woman act...and was drafted to perform in that show in the last hour of the show for 20 solid years...

(And yeah, the patriarch that posted here that wanted me to be a youngster, good try...I am not a youngster. That is a pretty common thing tho, I stir up controversy by my mere being and the men try to poohpooh me as a youngster who will lose all political passion with age like them! Nope, not all of us sell out with age! I have another example of that patriarch painting me as ignorant youth now on my website at http://resist.ca/~kirstena/pagetimharrispovertypimp.html - it is a pretty common tactic..)

Would you like to post them - If you are interested in my credentials, so to speak, you can go to http://resist.ca/~kirstena/pagefeministcomedy.html
there is an mp3 there...and yes, I did post links to it here, you must have missed them.

So Charmion, did I pass the test? What do you play? How is your singing voice? And do you write music? Have you posted it here?

I don't know why I answered this one, I guess I cannot tell if it is sincere or not...is Charmion really asking what my credentials are? If so, here they are...

But I do not expect to visit or comment on this thread again...so take this apart with a fine tooth comb all you want...but I am sticking to my mud smears when wet theory...and will just flick it when dry later. I see no actual purpose in reading or contributing to this thread. My writing, my work, it stands on its own.

And it is not true that I only talk in monologue either. I have contributed to dialogue and threads I did not start!

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 11:48 PM

As you might have guessed Kirsten, Big Mick isn't much of a feminist. He is one of those mighty warrior clones who, as a former Vietnam warrior and self-proclaimed "Irish bard" (hehehe), just LOVES to play Mudcat macho cop.

Apparently you've annoyed him, so he's got you in his sights and will now stalk you in his usual creepy fashion. To defend the good, cowering, fearful people of this forum from the likes of you and me.

I'm sure you are really feeling special by now. Hope the mud dries soon, and you enjoy the weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 11:45 PM

people who do not even know me immediately jumped on me for what?

Partly for making assumptions about and casting aspersions on people you don't even know.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 11:29 PM

Well, we mainly were arguing not over you but just got drawn by a troll. And I don't think the person who started the thread had anything in his or HER craw, but just wanted some light entertainment (getting people riled). We all used it to our own advantage. (I myself got to address some old misconceptions certain flamers have trotted out at me for years.) But welcome to the Mudcat zoo anyway. You got links to our best. This thread ain't our worst! :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST,kirsten anderberg
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 11:21 PM

LOL!!! 117 comments? And I assume anything I say will only fuel the fire...so why bother? I do not think this thread was started with a "welcome Kirst" feel...whoever started it had a craw in his pants anyway and people who do not even know me immediately jumped on me for what? Posting a few articles on a forum?! A wise busker I know named Thaddeus Spae says not to try to get rid of mud slinging while it is wet or it just smears. He says wait until the mud is dry, then you can just flick it off your pants, rather than it smearing and smudging. That is the way I look at threads like this online...mud. I just can wait until it is dry and flick it off!

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 11:11 PM

Kirsten, I find that people who react to perceived criticism with "I must intimidate them" usually know that the criticism has validity. It is a coverup. You don't intimidate folks, some just resent your first appearance on the forum being used to cut and paste a bunch of old articles you wrote for self promotion purposes. The articles aren't bad, in fact I recommended one of them to my daughters. You just never bothered to say hello first.

As to the GUEST from the great north, she routinely deludes herself into thinking that she is the saviour who brings truth to the rest of us poor souls. We are really very grateful to her for her intent to save us from our frightening ignorance, but wish she would just leave us to our simple pleasures.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 01:14 PM

As was said of Tarzan, about to lose his grip on the grapevine...

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 01:03 PM

"Back to the reason why you started a troll thread on the newcomer, there Phantom of the Uproar. So what did Kirsten do to cause you to start this nasty thread naming her by name?"

Guest (11 Aug 05 - 06:51 PM), what in hell are you talking about? I didn't start this "nasty thread," some GUEST, sans identifying handle did – perhaps you? This thread was started at 1:51 a.m. on the 11th. I didn't post until 6:45 p.m. on the 11th. Although I haven't registered and am a GUEST, unlike you, I always identify myself the same way. Other than GUEST, you don't identify yourself at all.

"Your grasp of reality seems a little tenuous." (Old Jungle Saying)

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:03 PM

Guest of 11 Aug 05 - 09:32 PM, I doubt very much that a woman of Kirsten's strength would appreciate you finding it necessary to rush to her defense. :~) I agree that some of the responses to her first threads (including the opening post of this one) were rude. But responses to her query about why there was upset, IMO, were not. At any rate, she surely can speak for herself about it, and respond to anyone as she wishes. I hope she does.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 09:57 PM

"Ladies and Gentlemen...'Guest' has left the building. Please make your way to the exits."

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 09:47 PM

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 09:38 PM

A GUEST lecturer!

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 09:38 PM

hee hee hee

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 09:32 PM

Ebbie, you were not the worst offender in "correcting" the new person, but you were an offender.

Why should any adult, who obviously is intelligent, articulate, web savvy, knowledgeable of netiquette, etc. be chastised the way this woman was in this thread for not showing proper decorum and deference to the membership here? Why did some of you presume/suggest she hasn't done her homework, or been lurking here already? I mean, it takes a damn lot of arrogance to make these sorts of presumptions about a newcomer who is guilty of nothing more than being on-topic, polite, engaging, and interesting?

I suggest some of you wander your way back up to the top of this thread, and see what started it. A trolling guest, whom I would bet dollars to donuts is actually a member trolling as a guest, started this nasty thread. Many of the usual Mudcat xenophobe suspects got immediately touchy, and visibly bristled at Kirsten's claim she could handle the fallout of her actions as she is comfortable and at ease with paying the price of being a dynamic sort who naturally ruffles feathers.

You "this forum is MY community" regulars were condescending as hell when yo told her she had better address the forum your way, which sure sounded like a thinly veiled "or else" challenge to me.

No one, member or guest, is required to conform to your desires in their forum behavior. No one. And to presume that you have some god given right to publicly chastise ANY adult for not behaving the way you want them to, when they are actually being reasonable and perfectly polite, is just plain rude and obnoxious.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 08:36 PM

I don't know to whom all this venom is directed but I'll address my share of it.

I don't at all see what y'all are moaning about. In my opinion, Kirsten was welcomed, and a number of us acknowledged her information as being fresh and insightful.

We then went on to discuss the whatfors of her approach and the rather blanket judgment she cast that we were feeling threatened in some way if we took exception to her basic premise that women buskers are somehow inappropriate performers and at higher risk - legally, socially and sexually - when performing than are male buskers. My guess is that just about every one of us agrees with her perception as to the heightened risk and I didn't pick up on anyone as suggesting that women performers should stay home and take up knitting.   I think the Mudcatters were on the money when they suggested that until she gets better acquainted with Mudcatters that she reserve her judgment. By and large - Clinton excepted *G* - Mudcat men are admirable creatures.

The 'mild annoyance' I conceded was to the "information presented-information correct" tone, and the implication that if one did not agree, one was feeling threatened in some way.

For the record, my only reservation was as to whether there should be a separate and permanent thread where this kind of information could be housed and accessed as needed in future.

I welcome Kirsten Anderberg as a member or a visitor. I think she has experience with something most of us would like to know more about. I have never busked- and at my age, never will - but I like expanding my mental horizons.

So, to you who are bemoaning the "bad", "crap" content of this thread, I say, These Dog Days will pass. Chill.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST,615
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 08:02 PM

Maybe it's just envy. In one afternoon Kirsten has posted more original ideas than our guest could think up in a lifetime. I'd be pissed too.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 07:52 PM

Sheesh! I don't believe this crap.

Kirsten, welcome to Mudcat, it's not always this bad, honest.

I'm out of here.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 07:03 PM

"I'm leaving!" shouted Nora, "And I'm never coming back!"

And they didn't hear a sound, but a tra-la-la from Jack.**

**From one of the greatest tomes of literature, "Noisy Nora".

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:56 PM

That's very gracious of you. Don't slam the door on the way out.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:55 PM

Yeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaw! I got it.

So, why did you start this thread dissing the newcomer by name again, Trolling Phantom of the Uproar? Congratulations. Your bitter ugliness which started it all got us from zero to one hundred in roughly 16 hours.

Not a record, but an admirable trolling flame thread for the dog days of August, nonetheless.

And now I shall bow out, and leave the clean-up to you holier-than-thou ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:54 PM

100! Oh, shit. Too late, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:53 PM

oh good grief.

Somebody dares grace this place with something interesting to read and some don't like it because she hasn't yet earned the right to post here?

oh good grief.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:53 PM

BTW Guest 6:28, are the disgruntled troll who facetiously started this thread?

I thought it was you. The witching hours fast approaches, so bye bye guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:52 PM

100! Or did I miss?

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:52 PM

100!

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:51 PM

Back to the reason why you started a troll thread on the newcomer, there Phantom of the Uproar. So what did Kirsten do to cause you to start this nasty thread naming her by name?

Kirsten hasn't left, BTW. She merely is wisely and graciously keeping above the fray and above the line.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:51 PM

Oh! Repent, Ebbie! Repent!

(we've almost reached 100)

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:48 PM

"I agree with Little Hawk that what she interprets as intimidation is annoyance and very mild annoyance at that."

Exact quote there, Ebbie. I wouldn't say I quoted you out of context at all. You and Little Hawk were jumping on the bandwagon, pissing on the newbie, IMO, by chastising her "not for what she said, but the way she said it".

That is actually Mudcat code for politely dissing a person whose views you find threatening, by attacking them and their mode of expression personally. It's done here all the time, and yes, you are one of the sinners in this regard.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:45 PM

Thanks for the thought, love. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST,The Phantom of the Uproar
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:45 PM

Welcome to the GUEST's "hijack a thread so I can attack people and piss and moan and complain, and then say that it's everyone else who's picking on poor little me who is persecuted because I'm always right and all these stupid people hate me because I'm such a glowing beacon of Truth" thread.

I suspect that Kirsten is wisely long gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:42 PM

Hey, hey, hey, don't misquote me, Guest. As you know very well, I did not say that Kirsten's "presence here" annoyed me or any of us, mildly or otherwise. I welcome her. What I was referring to, as you will accept if you are an honest person, is her approach. As I said, I prefer discussion to a monologue.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:38 PM

Sharp eyes there, Cranedriver. I should have said "most American forum members"...

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:35 PM

BTW Guest 6:28, are the disgruntled troll who facetiously started this thread? You obviously have some kind of ax to grind with the woman...

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Crane Driver
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:31 PM

Well, we've certainly got us a troll here, and it isn't Kirsten. Most Forum members voted for Kerry? Who's Kerry? Wasn't he an American politician? I think you'll find most Forum members aren't even from the USA.

This one will run and run . . .

Andrew

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:31 PM

Nah, I changed my mind about leaving right away, after it became apparent that we would be reaching 100 posts quickly, and I might get a chance to beat out gnu or somebody by claiming it. I'm just killin' time, now.

But thanks so much for asking Guest 6:28.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:30 PM

Sure CarolC. And don't all of us who reside in/visit Britain often, hear of British African Americans all the time? What a brilliant display of missing the point.

My take on the point you were making is that terms we are accustomed to using are not universally applicable. And that was my point as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:28 PM

She is 44 or 45 years old. Not that much younger than most here.

'Rather, I sometimes do relish too much the (frequent) opportunities to point out the human foibles of certain posters here who deny any and all knowledge of their own dark natures operating without their knowledge as their evil twin selves.'

First he says bye bye then he comes back. Refresh for the ego. Maybe Kirsten will like him.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:28 PM

Little Hawk, before you make any more foolish proclamations of such astounding presumptions (regarding Kirsten's age), you might try reading all the stuff she actually has written about herself in the music section today. Try her Laura Nyro thread on, and then come back and tell us why you insist that holding radical political views are the moral equivalent of being childish to us, won't you?

Speaking of egomaniacal arrogant presumptiousness...

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:22 PM

As you can see Kirsten, everyone here would love to welcome you, but they are too busy beating up on me for telling the forum's dirty little secrets to a newcomer whose unexpected presence among us, as Ebbie so politely suggested, "mildly annoyed" them. Hence, their responding in their usual, well mannered way.

You have my apologies Kirsten, if I overstepped my bounds. I did start all this when commenting upon what I perceived as you getting a majorly pissy reception, after posting on-topic copies of well written, interesting articles on subjects rarely mentioned, much less discussed in this forum.

Though visits to the music section do suggest we are currently enjoying a veritable rush of feminist and women musicians commenting right now. True, some are choosing to express some frustration with the good ole boy trad/folk scene. I can't think of a time when we've had so many feminists expressing themselves in the forum, ever.

I welcome you, and would only ask that you not tone done your rhetoric to suit the Wonder bread nature of this forum's dysfunctional socio-political dynamic.   It is true, there are a handful of folks who will actually engage with you on your level, rather than taking sniper shots at you. You clearly need no one to stick up for you, and it was not my intention to do that.

Rather, I sometimes do relish too much the (frequent) opportunities to point out the human foibles of certain posters here who deny any and all knowledge of their own dark natures operating without their knowledge as their evil twin selves.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:14 PM

People look for a fight when they're angry, and when they feel in danger (at some level of their psyche). Young people often feel that way. We mellow a bit as we get older.

I figure if I want peace in the World I must become peace in the World. How do I do that? Be becoming more peaceful, day by day, not only in my outward behaviour but in my inward thought. It's a worthwhile process.

I suspect Kirsten is younger than many of us are. She's definitely very aware of social injustice (had a look at her website), and that can fuel a lot of anger. That's understandable.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Biskit
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:05 PM

Am I the only one that's noticed that Kirsten isn't joining in this conversation?? And Susan, why! you've been my buddy ever since you told me off and, (rightly) put me in my place years ago. I wouldn't trade any of you for the whole world....and I so much agree with Little Hawk. widening the devide will never bring us together. and Kirsten I found out a long time ago, if you come looking for a fight, you'll find one. But why would anyone look for a fight??
Peace!
Through Understanding
Biskit

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:04 PM

There is no reason why one cannot speak truth to power anonymously.

GUEST Idiot. You always say you speak the truth. What an ego you have, and badly in need of nourishment also. Is that why you come here?

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:03 PM

Okay Little Hawk, Peace!

And {but?} when I get the time & energy and the spirit says 'do it',
I look forward to publicly discussing with you some of the points you made in your 11 Aug 05 - 05:23 PM post.

But not here in this thread and not now.


Azizi

PS:
I think you're nice too.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:55 PM

Fair enough, Azizi. I just wanted to qualify what I was saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:54 PM

Did I say I never took "political" action?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:51 PM

It was gargoyle who stole my forum moniker. That's never been a mystery.

For a fun-filled *read* of "radical feminists" on the Mudcat, Kirsten, have a blast reading this thread. It is supposed to start with the PeterT posting. (Mudcat had a major crash recently and the order of old postings got messed up.)

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:50 PM

Sure CarolC. And don't all of us who reside in/visit Britain often, hear of British African Americans all the time? What a brilliant display of missing the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:49 PM

Little Hawk,

you liking me and considering me a 'good gal' is nice and all that, but it really is immaterial to my point {and to my being a member of this forum}.

I don't expect you or everyone {or most people even} to agree my opinions all or the time, or most of the time, or-sometimes with some people-any of the time.

I write what I see, think, feel, and experience just as all others here do.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST,daylia
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:46 PM

Sorry GUEST above was me. Forgot to log back in ... I find it's easier to access this site when I'm logged out these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST,Howard the Duck
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:45 PM

WAUGHHHH!!! (connotes extreme frustration with hairless apes)

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:44 PM

Home, home and deranged,
I sit in the manger and whine,
I alone speak the truth
In my telephone booth
With a wristwatch that keeps perfect time.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:42 PM

"There aren't any African Americans in Britain Azizi, because British citizens aren't American. The contested language most often used in the racial discourses in other parts of the world doesn't match the contested language in the US.

OK--now is the part where you come back and say you already knew that..."

I already knew that terms used to define "race" in the United States aren't necessarily used by non-United Staters..

Of course as Carol points out there are some people who are of African American descent who live outside of the United States...

And GUEST, you said "there is no such thing as...
Why 'thing' and not people???!!!

Also if you will note my post of 11 Aug 05 - 05:13 PM, I used the word "negative" and not the word "racist".

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:42 PM

In short order, she will be painted black with the same brush all of your painted Martin Gibson with: the one that paints everyone into the boxes that easily and conveniently fit inside the dark box of your preconceived notions most here refuse to admit to having"

From Websters:   

"black: ... 6 a :thoroughly sinister or evil : WICKED (a black deed :indicative of condemnation or discredit (got a black mark for being late)"

"dark: ... 3 a : arising from or showing evil traits or desires : EVIL (the dark powers that lead to war) b : DISMAL, GLOOMY (had a dark view of the future)"

Of all the possible definitions/usages of the words "black" and "dark", the ones I posted are the only 2 that fit with the context of GUEST'S comment.   Won't speak for GUEST of course, but I bet no racial slurs were intended!

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Charmion
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:38 PM

I generally stop reading a post at about Line 6 unless it is witty or concerned with a music matter that interests me. I doubt that I am alone, or even unusual.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:35 PM

"The idiot troll..."

Here we go. Y'all got yourselves into high gear name calling mode, so let's let yer insults rip, and see if we can't hit 100 posts in a flaming newbie thread within the hour.

"...said "I speak truth to the powers that be here"

Anonymously no doubt."

There is no reason why one cannot speak truth to power anonymously. Anonymity is often the only means people (low in status especially, like women or people of color) within the social hierarchies have of giving voice to their concerns, expressing dissent (it is constitutionally protected speech, BTW, unless ruled libelous or seditious), or making the truth known to others (such as with whistleblowers).

I feel quite comfortable being in the company of anonymous voices. I don't have the fragile ego to feed most Mudcatters with anonymity issues have, apparently.

Though I'm not always anonymous. I've given myself a bazillion handles over the years here, and a membership or two as well. Too bad I'm not willing to let you all in on my trade secrets via your PM shadow forum, as to how I routinely get around my access being blocked.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:34 PM

Amazing, isn't it? ;-) A classic example of: too many egos spoil the soup!

I am deeply afraid that this thread may yet beat the record of 100 fastest posts. Scary.

Kirsten, if all this proves too much for you, you can always apply for rest and rehab at the NYCFTTS or a course at the WSSBA.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:30 PM

Well, this is like a blast from the past.

Anyway, Kirsten, welcome to the the worst that Mudcat has to offer. And it has nothing to do with Max, Jeff, Joe Offer, katlaughing, or any of the other nice folks who are there to fix a link or correct an HTML code when asked. For the life of me, I can't understand people who obviously hate this place, but insist on hanging around anyway and bitching incessantly.

Anyway, check out the links I posted. Lotsa good stuff there.

It's way past my lunch time. I'll be back later.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Charmion
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:29 PM

Oh, for Heaven's sake.

I generally quit reading any post at about Line 6 if it isn't witty or concerned with a music question that interests me. Radical feminism stops me cold because it is not about music and it is never witty.

Kirsten, what do you play? What is your singing voice like? Have you written any songs? Would you like to post them?

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:28 PM

If Azizi got British citizenship, by virtue of her family's history, she would be a British African American.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:23 PM

You voted for Nader, Guest? Well, good for you. I have long asserted that it is a totally useless effort to vote for the two halves of the ruling cartel, the Redemocrapublicants, as I call them, a single power structure masquerading as a choice! To vote for either of them is to vote for more of the same. Nader was right.

I also agree wholeheartedly with your point about the use of the words "black" and "dark", which in that context had nothing whatsoever to do with Black Americans...who have been called variously in the last thousand years: Blacks, Moors, Negroes, N*ggers, N*gras, J*ngle B*nnies, Spear-Ch*ckers, Afro-Americans, Nubians, Abyssinians, Darkies, Colored People, and God knows what else! IF WE COULD JUST ALL DECIDE WHAT THEY ARE CALLED! (or does it matter?) At any given time some of those names have been considered politically correct, and some decidely not, depending on whom you ask. You've got to watch the cue cards to determine which name is presently in fashion and among whom in order to avoid being accused of something horrendous by someone with a "trick knee" that jerks every time a certain word is spoken!

The words "black" and "dark" have always been used in a context where one is speaking of negative possibilities. Why? Because we associate LIGHT (from the sun) with goodness and DARKNESS with danger. Why? Because we are diurnal creatures, biologically speaking. We are made to operate in daylight, not darkness. Our ancient ancestors were in great danger at night from roaming predators and they feared the darkness! Accordingly, light was seen as good, dark was seen as bad. And that has continued in the language.

That has NOTHING whatsoever to do with black people. Black people had just as much trouble being attacked by predators at night as any other people, for heaven's sake!

Gimme a break! Azizi, I like you. You're a good gal. But I cannot agree with you on this one. It's a misjudgement of language and intention, ignoring context. It's like those people in Washington who got mad at the politician who used the word "niggardly", another word that has absolutely nothing to do with black people. It's a Scottish word that means "stingy".

As for Martin Gibson, unlike many here I got to like him...whether or not I agreed with him. Sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't. But that's been chewed over enough already.

Lively little thread, isn't it? I wonder if we have scared Kirsten away?

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:23 PM

Well Sista--those black folks with the Scottish accents living in Glasgow simply are NOT African Americans. But if you can't sort out why I would say such a laughable thing, then you need to open your mind so you can recognize your own ignorance of the constructs of race, racialized identity, and the contested use of language associated with those constructs.

There aren't any African Americans in Britain Azizi, because British citizens aren't American. The contested language most often used in the racial discourses in other parts of the world doesn't match the contested language in the US.

OK--now is the part where you come back and say you already knew that...

I respect you and your intellect Azizi, but you really do have quite a bit of growing and learning yet to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:22 PM

The idiot troll said "I speak truth to the powers that be here"

Anonymously no doubt. The degree of your sickness is the degree to which I in turn keep my identitiy from you, GUEST. You are a gem. No doubt. Too bad no one knows who you are or even likes you very much. I hope your bye bye is for real. But when you need attention you will be back I expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:13 PM

"..there is no such thing as African Americans in England."

HA! That comment in and of itself is soo laughable....

Well, that's all I'm gonna say-for now-on the subject of the negative use of the words "black" and "dark".

Do your thing, GUEST, but if you want people to take you seriously, you have to come with something better than that and those other weak points you made.


Sista Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:08 PM

I know, Susan. Oppression really can't even exist on a personal level unless we choose to oppress ourselves, right? Which is why you refuse to deal with it on a political level, except in these classic passive aggressive ways.

For such a polite man, you sure love to insult people who disagree with you Monsieur Firth.

This thread is (not surprisingly with the lot responding to it) getting a little too high school "fight over the new kid" for my tastes.

Bye bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:07 PM

Hear, hear, Susan!

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:59 PM

Oh. Okay, if it's not Marty, but that GUEST, I've already explained to him/her/it several times that the reason I intended to vote for Kerry instead of someone who was more progressing and more in line with my own thinking, was that of all the candidates running against Bush, the only one who had a ghost of a chance was Kerry, and frankly, with the lack of viable alternatives in the last election, my vote was against Bush rather than for Kerry. I was in damage control mode. I would have preferred Dennis Kucinich (and I voted for him in my precinct caucus), but he was eliminated early on. So I voted for what I considered to be the best of a bad bunch. Rather that than sit home and whine.

Don Firth

P. S. But GUEST, what does all of that have to do with the current thread? Slow day at the asylum?

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:57 PM

Guest, in fact I welcomed K in email, PM, and in several threads. I wrote politely. I offered help and information, and did not assume she wanted or needed it. It's not her radicalism that concerns me, but her lack of knowledge about the community she's jumped into headfirst. And so I offered information.

You know, for someone who goes anonymously, you sure like to use the "I" word a lot.

BTW, all one needs to know about my place on the "radical" scale is that I wholeheartedly believe that we all have free will, and I support people's exercise of it with action and friendship. I also believe in personal responsibility, and I enjoy discovering how the two values intersect in endless variety. Beyond that, you can't know more unless you know me personally and up close, because my behavior in that regard is person- and situation-specific.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:56 PM

Azizi,

I don't consider you claiming that the use of the words "black" and "dark" to be inherently racist in the context in which I used them, to be quibbling at all. I consider it as ludicrous as the suggestion that Jews own the word "holocaust".

You might be interested to know that in Irish Gaelic, dark skinned people are referred to not as black people, but blue people.

Preconceived notions, and all that. You might also be shocked to know there are European sub-continent Indian immigrants who have now been resident in Africa for generations, who consider themselves to be "of African descent", and that there is no such thing as African Americans in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:52 PM

Gee - Someone is posting articles and ideas about music on a music forum. And none of us are being forced to read any of this - but we're getting upset and fighting about it ?? Hmmmmm...........

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:46 PM

GUEST,

You may consider it a minor quibble, but as a person of African descent, I take exception to your use of "black" and "dark" as negatives in your sentence that I quote below:

"In short order, she will be painted black with the same brush all of your painted Martin Gibson with: the one that paints everyone into the boxes that easily and conveniently fit inside the dark box of your preconceived notions most here refuse to admit to having"..

You really didn't have to go there to make your points {which btw I don't agree with, but that's a whole 'nuther story}.



Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:45 PM

That's right, Don. Right wing liberal baiter extraordinaire, whom you simply could not resist responding to, just like you can't resist responding to me, apparently left of his own accord, though I do believe he was threatened with expulsion by the time he did leave.

I, on the other hand (and as you well know), am the radical leftist who had THE GALL to vote for Nader, whom you and some other Democrat liberals like Jerry, Amos, the clones, et al routinely love to try and discredit without much success. Hence your attempt to demonize me by referring to me as the universally loathed, yet sado-masochistically still worshipped, Martin Gibson. Yawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:38 PM

By the way, Kirsten, the following threads may be of interest.

These two (Clicky #1) and (Clicky #2) can give you a blow-by-blow description of the busking tours of the Intrepid Marion Parsons, a young woman with the voice of an angel and the heart of a lion. This one (Clicky #3) is a discussion precipitated by the question "Is busking begging?"

Also, if you go to the "Filter" box at the top of this page, type in "busking," click the little arrow on the box to the right and crank it all the way down to "All," and click "Refresh," you'll get links to a dozen or so threads on busking.

By the way, Mudcat's server crashed severely some weeks back, and for reasons I don't understand, some of the posts in previous threads got out of sequence. So if the responses in some of the posts don't seem to follow logically from previous posts, that's why. It can be a bit confusing.

Don Firth

P. S. Hi, Marty! I knew you couldn't stay away. By the way, Kirsten, Marty didn't get banned, he just left. He's an arch-conservative who hates liberals, homosexuals, women, anyone who plays and sings anything but bluegrass, and has a seventy-five word vocabulary, half of which are old Anglo-Saxon terms for bodily parts and functions. He's one of those smart-asses and complainers that I mentioned. He also thinks anyone to the left of Karl Rove is a traitor. He is a bit like a jackal who stands well back, all set to run, and yaps at a pride of lions. Ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:32 PM

It makes you defensive and caused you to respond to her with a curt rudeness that isn't very welcoming to a newbie. That's "so what".

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:19 PM

She probably IS more radical-- so what?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:04 PM

Of course you wouldn't Ebbie. I speak truth to the powers that be here, and those powers are people you consider to be "good people" and perhaps even friends. I don't begrudge you for it.

I too went to kirsten's website, and know for a fact that she is much more radical than the overwhelming majority of people here are, despite their protestations to the contrary. In short order, she will be painted black with the same brush all of your painted Martin Gibson with: the one that paints everyone into the boxes that easily and conveniently fit inside the dark box of your preconceived notions most here refuse to admit to having.

Kirsten may well not like me. But then again, I'm not concerned with that. If Kirsten generates heat and light for the forum, so much the better, IMO. The place could use a wake-up call.

After all, the forum hasn't had a good call to arms since the "For Real I Quit" thread, which resulted in my being banned. Kiss kiss.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:51 PM

I perceive Kirsten Anderberg as being more adult than Guest is. Frankly, I would not be pleased to have Guest in my corner.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:48 PM

...and Don voted for Kerry, as did most forum members. Just so's you knows how truly liberal folks around these parts are...

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:42 PM

katlaughing is one of the forum moderators kirsten, known here as "clones". She became a clone through her now legendary ascendance status in the male hierarchy of the forum when someone who remains nameless "stole" her forum nom de plume and impersonated her. Quite sarcastically.

By running to the forum owner, Max, and his enforcer, the censor-happy Joe Offer, she and her minions got the forum log-in feature changed, to create a two-tiered system of "members" (whose names and forum nom de plumes couldn't be used by others who didn't share their cookies), and their now legendary underclass "guests".

Amusing to watch the circling of the wagons, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:33 PM

Kirsten, I echo what PoohBear and katlaughing have said above. I would go on to say that I don't think that any of the men on this forum (certainly very not many) are intimidated or scared by a woman who speaks her mind. If you do a spot-check of threads here, you'll note that there is no shortage of women who are intelligent, informed, have strong opinions, are quite outspoken, and don't take any crap off of anyone, male or female (and that most definitely includes Ebbie and CarolC just above, and WYSIWYG, whether or not someone perceives her as "conservative" or a "preacher's wife" or whatever; she's perfectly capable of speaking for herself). So you're not exactly a pioneer here.

As far as feminism is concerned, you're pretty much preaching to the choir. And that includes both men and women here. As far as militant feminism is concerned, nobody here has any problem with the feminism part of it. It's militancy—in any of its forms—that can be a turn-off to a lot of people. An underlying foundation of anger is readily perceivable and often begets anger in response, so if one wishes to put forth something for the serious consideration of others, being initially confrontational can be counterproductive.

In the political threads, the discussions can sometimes get pretty heated, but all in all, Mudcat tends to be a fairly friendly place. You will, of course, find a few smart-asses here, but they can generally be shrugged off. You will also find a few cranky people who don't like the way Mudcat is run (generally a hands-off policy) and can be highly critical. Browse a lot of threads, get the lay of the land, and make up your own mind.

I have written a a lot of stuff, some of it published, and I've been tempted to post chunks of it here, but noting the general length of posts that hold people's attention, I've learned that it's best to post, as Open Mike put it, the "Cliff's Notes" version. I can sympathize, because I tend to "write long" (THIS post is an example).

As a result of this particular thread, I googled you and found that you are a very active and articulate person with much to say that I am in perfect agreement with.

Welcome aboard.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: MMario
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:32 PM

*grin* don't think so. I was having too much fun watching the big boom-boom thingies go off. Irish_Sargeant was there that day too, I think - but I didn't find that out until later.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:29 PM

Say, Mmario, did we ever bother to find out if we were on the same side?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:28 PM

Too fast. I prefer peacetime.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: MMario
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:14 PM

It doesn't take folks long to see ME and not the role. (Mmario, how long did it take YOU?)

about 3 minutes; but it was wartime! You know how fast people get to know each other then!

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:12 PM

"I regard myself as a radical feminist."

Why? What for? In regards to achieving what useful objective?

Can human unity and peace be achieved through more divisiveness?

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:11 PM

(If I was a better accordionist, and if I had the inclination to busk, I think accompanying a busking juggler would be exactly my cup of tea.)

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:08 PM

I'm very jealous that you know so many jugglers, Kirsten.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:08 PM

understand some will feel threatened or intimidated

While your articles seem to have merit, I would suggest you do some *homework* before coming and posting such assumptions as the above and the maligning of male members of the Mudcat, as well as thinking you've cornered the market on activisim in music, feminism, etc. (One thing about the Mudcat, though, if "in your face" is the approach you prefer, you will get as good as you give.) There are many, many members/posters who've been at it a good long while and have no need to "shout" about it. As a member, you are welcome to put a "Profile" of yourself in the members' pages, accessed through the Quick Links.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:06 PM

No, but thanks for asking. I routinely piss off Max, Joe and the clones by being critical of the way they run the place, and pointing out that they have a big double standard. This last banning took place after I pointed out that Joe broke his own rules by allowing brucie to change his identity to Peace, and pointing out how unstable brucie is in his harrassment of other forum posters when he gets pissed off at them.

---

"Peace" changed his user name according to established procedures - renaming his existing membership and notifying me that he did it. It's establishing a second membership that causes us problems. As you can see from my comments in this thread, Peace may have to work a little harder to be worthy of his user name...
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: LilyFestre
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:03 PM

I was wondering how it is that Ally feels he/she can accurately give anyone of picture of anyone else here when he/she just said that they don't spend much time here. If you aren't here or talk to folks often, how is it possible to have any idea of how anyone really is?

Michelle

PS. Mrs. Snotty Cootiesniffer, Honorary Man ROFLMAO....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.....LOLOLOLOLOL....that is CLASSIC!!!!!!!! ROFLROFL *SNORT* LOLOLOLOL

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:02 PM

Someone has got to save the penguins, and it might as well be us. If we don't do it, who will? I will not rest until penguins are allowed to busk on the streets of our major cities without harassment!

Anon Ally, I am thunderstruck to hear that you have been blocked from this forum by the moderators. I mean....gad! That's almost impossible. What did you do? Utter death threats? Engage in public nudity? Refuse to acknowledge the ineffable greatness of William Shatner?

You must have done something simply beyond the pale. What the heck was it?

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST,Anon Ally
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:02 PM

So Susan, what sort of feminist are you, then? If I am so mistaken in my stereotyping of you, why not give a pithy explanation of your feminist beliefs and values instead of such a defensive and dismissive reaction?

You too seem to be insulted by the word conservative. I didn't use it as an epithet, I used it as an adjective. In my readings of your posts over the years, I have seen no evidence of feminist sensibilities. I regard myself as a radical feminist, so I don't believe I'm blowing smoke here.

Most the men and women in this forum are socially conservative when it comes to feminist values and beliefs. It has been very rare indeed, that I have seen anyone claim to be a feminist, much less a radical one. Rather, I have witnessed a lot of stereotypical anti-feminist ranting to the tune of that old cliched tune "I'm not a feminist, but..."

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:00 PM

But I AM one of the a**holes, really-- just not THAT kind. :~) Anyone who knows me can tell you THAT! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:56 PM

Welcome to the 'cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:56 PM

There are many ways of being conservative, and some of them are clearly quite wise and useful. It all depends on the context. I'm conservative when it comes to getting drunk, for example. I don't. I'm also conservative about a number of other things, like driving defensively and keeping fairly near the speed limit. Clearly, I do not regard the word as necessarily being pejorative in nature.

It was my impression that you were leveling a criticism at Susan's character. Do you claim that you were not doing so? That is the "character assassination" I was referring to. You were basically saying, if I may paraphrase it, "Don't bother wasting much of your time here, Kirsten, because this place is full of *ssholes, and Susan is one of them." I call that character assassination.

And if it is so dull here, why are you here today? Why not somewhere else?

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:54 PM

Hahahahhh!

LH, I don't mind when people call me or think of me as a "clergy spouse;" it is a designation that is accurate and has a specific cultural meaning among those of us who share that tag. Oh yeah, it has some stereotypes attached, and some weird (often contradictory) expectations, but those don't impede my being myself in the role. It doesn't take folks long to see ME and not the role. (Mmario, how long did it take YOU?)

Socially conservative? Oh my, I think I need more kleenex and Depends! I was looking for an old post of mine where I got more specific about these little annoyances we call "stereotypes," and how poorly they fit me, but with CRS I can't recall what thread it was in, nor what I titled the message, so oh well!

Hm, there WAS that "Allies Of Men's Liberation" group I started years ago-- pretty hard to peg that one, I guess. We mostly focused on helping raise consciousness that women don't need to be the clingy/complaining sort that men are conditioned to care for/placate. The parallel men's group made me an honorary man, welcome at all their meetings. So-- ??????? :~)

Have a nice day! And save the penguins!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST,Anon Ally
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:50 PM

I'll try and strike the middle chord here: I read the responses to Kirsten as being quite defensive in nature and tone. I didn't perceive the responders as feeling intimidated, but I also thought their responses were stronger than annoyance.

Defensive posturing, and an immediate circling of the wagons in the presence of a forthright and assertive female newbie, who wishes to discuss music from her feminist and radical perspective.

I'm sure you all will come up with justifications to crucify her as anti-christ within a week, if she remains that long.

As to my presence here, it is pretty rare precisely because this is such a dull backwater of a place, and because I have been banned/had my access blocked by the forum moderators.

However, my timing was obviously good, as Kirsten is the first breath of fresh air (as opposed to the reeking stench of good ole boy intellctual and ethical rot when Martin Gibson was tolerated so long as the Mudcat anti-christ).

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: LilyFestre
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:49 PM

LOL Mario....didn't see your post...but being that we both typed up the same thing speaks volumes, dontchathink?

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: LilyFestre
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:47 PM

Hey Ally....

    I'm thinking you don't know Susan (WYSIWYG) very well.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: MMario
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:44 PM

*chortle* anon ally don't know susan very well!

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:42 PM

I've read and enjoyed each article that Kirsten has posted. That said, I agree that I haven't seen any indication of any Mudcatter being "intimidated" by her views or experiences. I agree with Little Hawk that what she interprets as intimidation is annoyance and very mild annoyance at that.

While reading the articles, I wondered if a permanent thread on the subject of busking might be a good place to house the articles. There is a lot of good information given in them. I think, in addition, that other buskers' experiences and views would also be valuable.

What I prize the Mudcat Cafe for is the give and take and sharing of information, its ebbs and flows, its tremendous heart, its awesome cumulative knowledge. Articles per se, on ANY subject, imo serve a good purpose in expanding a subject that is being discussed, not propounded in a unilateral format.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST,Anon Ally
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:42 PM

Actually, I wasn't referring to the preacher as conservative, but Susan as conservative. And Little Hawk, you do a disservice to everyone by claiming that being conservative constitutes a moral flaw of some sort. Why else would you suggest that calling someone conservative is "character assassination"? Talk about prejudices...

Yes Susan, I would describe you as a socially conservative woman. Politically you may have liberal leanings, but many socially conservative women, especially those involved in organized religion, regularly refer to themselves as "liberal" politically while supporting their religion's version of social conservatism regarding gender issues especially.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:40 PM

What's it feel like to be characterized as a "preacher's wife", Susan? As though you were a mere appendage to your husband's professional role in life...my, my.

If I married a woman who was a local plumber who votes New Democrat (Canadian socialist party), would I then be characterized as merely "a Leftist plumber's spouse"? My, my. So cavalierly are we relegated to the stereotype heap in today's "sound bite" society.

It makes me so mad I could go punch a penguin! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:34 PM

Conservative preacher's wife, LOL!

Nice try!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:31 PM

Poppa. I haven't heard Lucinda Williams yet. I hope to, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:29 PM

Dull? You wound us! ;-) How can a place possibly be considered "dull" when it attracts the likes of luminaries such as you, Anon Ally? I ask you! You have to reconsider these things, and not underrate yourself in that way.

Look, we all have ways of amusing ourselves, right? Some obsess about "Guest" postings. Some about sexism. Some about George Bush. Some about whether Bob Dylan "stole" the lyrics to some song he recorded. Some, like you, prefer character assassination. (I've met Susan's husband, and he didn't strike me as "conservative".) It's endless. This place caters to every form of dysfunction and compunction, which makes it anything but dull, and that's why YOU keep coming back!

Kirsten's articles ARE interesting. No question about it. They're also very political in some respects, and that makes for much to chew on, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST,Anon Ally
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:22 PM

Welcome Kirsten!

Indeed, your presence IS a breath of fresh air. The "suggestion" (ahem) that you not post your on-topic music articles here is pretty bogus, IMO. People post music information articles, screeds, etc. here from other online sources all the time.

Purportedly, this information should be "harvested" for the benefit of the forum's purported "education value" though I think you would be silly to believe this place has much education value to anyone. It's essentially a lyric look-up site that works marginally and is poorly maintained, which has as an adjunct, this chat forum.

There is plenty of sexism and bigotry here to challenge you and keep you busy, if that sort of thing excites you. Don't listen to WYSIWYG (a conservative preacher's wife) and others like her "suggesting" that being a dynamic and forthright person who challenges peoples' prejudices, that you are a "troll".

In this forum, a "troll" is usually defined by the forum hierarchy as anyone who a) challenges the authority of the forum's elite, and/or; 2) anyone who challenges the complacency and smug superiority of the hoi polloi. I wouldn't worry about it, especially if you find no reason to linger long here. It is a rather dull backwater.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:15 PM

Little Hawk ~ all those woman performers, and you don't mention Lucinda Williams, perhaps the best of the bunch?

Yeah, too bad indeed that MG has flown the coop...

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:06 PM

Heh! And the beat goes on... Damn shame that Martin Gibson isn't here today.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:04 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:02 PM

I have been reading the previous posts to find out which mael Mudcatters appear to feel intimidated. I've failed to spot them, so far. I am certainly a bit downtrodden myself, having spent the last twenty years accompanying female soloists( who have mostly been quite good company, I hasten to add, in case they start threatening me).

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:02 PM

And there is a qualitative difference between being "threatened" and just being slightly annoyed, isn't there? ;-) I LIKE strong women. I don't much like unnecessary combativeness in either gender.

My experience is that the BEST performers encourage everybody. As Joan Baez said, "I don't get jealous in the presence of great talent, I get excited!" (This was her reaction when she first saw the young Bob Dylan play in a coffee shop in Greenwich Village, and decided instantly that he was the greatest living songwriter and that he would change everything in the field of folk music. She was right. She did everything she could in the next few years to help launch his career successfully.)

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:53 PM

Aggession does scare people, but forthrightness is totally okay, Kirsten. ;-) Whether anything is "your problem" or not is your perception, and your decision. That sexism exists in the music field is as obvious as that bullying or racism exist in various venues of life. And it cuts both ways, as I think we have all discovered.

About 75% of my favourite performers in the last 4 decades have been females. Among them I list Joan Baez, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Joni Mitchell, Tish Hinojosa, Loreen McKennitt, Lena Lovitch, Tina Turner, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Eartha Kitt, Odetta, and Emmy Lou Harris. And that's just the beginning...

I also love Dylan, Van Morrison, Jackson Browne, Al Stewart, Leonard Cohen and various other male performers, but I find that on average women seem to write more interesting stuff when they can write well. On average. I think that's because society teaches women to be more subtle in their thinking, whereas men are taught to operate in more narrow channels. I don't think it is innate to gender, I think it's mostly social conditioning.

The least important thing about any performer is which gender (or race) they belong to.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:52 PM

Hey Kirsten,

Sorry I misspelt your name elsewhere ("Kristen").

Very interesting and provocative stuff. I'm anxious to observe how you might participate in the off-the-cuff give-and-take of forum discussions, as opposed to posting pre-written essays. I'm sure you'll be up to the task.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:48 PM

Kirsten,

I hope you will get to know Mudcat men before you make so free with your aspersions. This can be a soft place to land and a place full of friends, if you let it be. If your goal, on the other hand, is to stir upset-- we call that trolling.

What you called "intimidated," I would be more likely to call "cultural differences" .... beyond mere gender difference.

This is an international, multicultural community made up of fiercely independent individuals. People here tend to lead to the commonalities and to bond on mutual support for positive efforts in the world.

It's up to you how you conduct ourself in this or any environment, but at the moment you look to be making a fast start at missing the best of this community. Sisterly advice from one who has "fought the good fight" for many years? Slow down, fly a little lower, and eat the roses. :~)

Some say that the best of Mudcat (the heart) is portrayed here: WHY WE SING

Others might say it's here: RICK FIELDING'S INFLUENCE

Or maybe here:

ABOUT CATSPAW

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST,kirsten
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:36 PM

Yes, I can post just a paragraph and a link if that is what your forums prefer. I have a website, so posting links to them is no issue. I have been asked for both ways in the past. Looks like I have intimidated some folks here (LOL - casting a big shadow reflects on those around me and their shadow size, not mine), scared some men (which is very predictable), given a breath of fresh air to others, and we will just plow on forward and see what transpires.

I have almost 30 years under my belt as a woman solo performer and writer, thus I am pretty used to causing controversy for being a woman who does political music and speaks her mind. And I have seen every type of male fit over women's equality possible so this should be fun.

I write in article format, that is my style. So, it is not that I am impersonal, I just do not see any point in writing the same thing over and over. I prefer to state it once in an article, and bring out that article when I want to say it again...

Sorry to just burst on the scene...I am just trying to offer some good content for discussion, but as I said, I understand some will feel threatened or intimidated, but really, that is not my problem...

I remember when I first busked in 1978 at the Pike Place Market in Seattle, male performer after male performer told me I was a bad performer and needed to go home. Only the BEST male performers encouraged me, such as artis the spoonman, jim page, baby gramps, reverend chumleigh, rick mandyke, karamovoz brothers, jan luby, sam wise, tom noddy...so I learned long ago to just do my thing regardless of the men bitching and telling me to go home, and I have learned it is the least talented men who find me threatening. The really talented performer men love my stuff and support me 100%...thus I will be taking the men whining with a grain of salt and also acknowledge there are some great male talents out there that are not threatened by equal strong women performers.

I know men want to poohpooh this issue, but that will not work. Sexism DOES exist in the music field and women are here to testify to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:13 PM

You cast a large shadow, don't you Kirsten? ;-) This should be interesting.

(that's not a remark on your weight, I hasten to add...I don't know what you look like)

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: open mike
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:02 PM

a mud cat member from canada,
went on a busking tour a
couple of years ago...
Kirsten, you might find
it interesting to search
back to the thread about
Marion's travel adventures.

and for those of us with short attention span,
if you post a synopsis, or outline or
the "cliff's notes version" of your
essays and then include a link to
where the entire text can be found, it
will take up less bandwidth here..
the cat sometimes gets over loaded
from so many posts, etc and crashes
completely.

but i hav ebeen enjoying your input
and wish you the best of luck in your
endeavors.

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:37 PM

Well-put, PoohBear.

Kirsten (a name I am partial to, as my oldest daughter is a "Kirsten!) your articles do look interesting, though a link with the first couple of paragraphs posted would be good. Also, it's nice to get to know folks a bit, introduce yourself, etc....get the lay of the land before coming in with so much and no intro. Thanks all the same and welcome to the Mudcat.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: PoohBear
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:08 PM

Hi Kirsten,
glad you're here. FYI - there's nothing wrong w/ posting Music articles that have been previously published. I've found a couple of them quite good reads. If I might suggest tho, they are a bit long for this forum. It might be better, when using one as a basis for a discussion, to post your question or opinion with a link to the relevant article that supports your position and invite folks to read it and discuss.
Just a thought. . .
cheers
PB

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:33 AM

Hey all, take a breath.

Kirsten, welcome, and you too! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:31 AM

Kirsten Anderderg, has written more in five posts than most members do in three lifetimes, I lost the will to live after the fist hour.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: kirstenanderberg
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:58 AM

What is "BS" about posting original articles about performing here? All of the lyrics and music you are publishing here was "previously written and published..." What is your problem with MUSIC articles published here again?

Kirsten Anderberg!

Subject: BS: Welcome to the Kirsten Anderberg show.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:51 AM

Previously written and published essays now on Mudcat.

---

Oh boy, oh, boy. Just what we need, another troll thread. Started by one of the few regular Mudcatters who doesn't have the courage to say who he is when he trolls.

I haven't see the articles in question, but generally, we encourage the posting of the entire text of MUSIC articles. Since this is a music forum, we do not allow the copy-paste posting of lengthy non-music articles. If it's non-music, post an excerpt of reasonable length (one screen), or a summary in your own words - plus a link to the entire text. If it's a music article, be sure to post a link along with the text, or at least tell us where you got the information.
This is explained in the FAQ.
-Joe Offer-