BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 01:22 PM

Stroupe:
If you got that Casus Belli from a shrub I suggest you change your whole viewpoint

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 07:56 PM

710 !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 07:49 PM

thew, perhaps you are right, but not in George Bush's (political) lifetime.
In fact if he were martyred all the mistakes they should have learned from, would be forgotten.

onward christian soldiers, you are fighting for W's memory and honor.

on second thought if w were martyred, Cheney would have a heart attack and the Supreme Court would elect another bozo in yet another precedent setting fiasco ;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: GUEST,thew
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:31 PM

If you lose the war...and everyone does lose a war now and then...there IS a substitute for victory. It's called "rebuilding".

It's also called "admitting we made a mistake, admitting we lost, and getting on with life". If you're so fixated on the size of your damn balls that you find admitting to such things as losing completely unthinkable, well, too bad. Kill yourself then, like the Japanese did when they lost battles. Go out in a blaze of glory, you idiot. It is not unthinkable to admit you've lost, unless you're a damn fool with too much pride to be rational and admit he, like others, can make a mistake now and then.

Most people have to do it some time, so get used to it. America doesn't deserve to win this war, because they started it themselves, and over absolutely nothing. Well, nothing they were willing to publicly admit to, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:04 PM

Although I don't support this "war" (which it's not because there has been no declaration of war), or this administration, I'd like to provide a little balance.

Although currently we do use most of the resources and could stand to go on a healthy diet, not too long ago it was the British Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the Roman Empire, Egyptian, Greek, etc. down the line. And the way things are looking it will soon be China and India outstripping the U.S. The fact is the U.S. is just a holder of a historical position. There will always be someone who needs more, wants more, or uses more than anyone else.

The same is true for the U.S. sticking its nose into others business. This is only a historical position that has been held by any colonial power over history.

Should we have stayed home during WWI and WWII? Should we have finished WWII and then just walked away without the Marshall Plan?
Suddenly all of our allies who were greatful for our presence after WWII when that mean old Soviet Bear was hanging over Europe now blame us for all the meddling that we did that held the Soviets in place.

Sure things have not always worked out in the best humanitarian and worldly wise ways for the U.S. but neither did they work for any of the other historic "world powers".

Also, did I not hear that the U.S. should be in Darfur? And from someones remarks that we aren't treating Iran, China or Korea the same way we did Iraq does that mean we should or should we just bow out and wait for them to arrive at our doorstep if they decide to start acquiring resources by force?

We need to get out of Iraq, but I don't see anyone else stepping forward to really do anything about any of the other situations.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 10:27 AM

"In war there's no substitute for victory"

General Douglas MacArthur said it.


Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:17 AM

Don't worry Slag, Society is a balance - the little termites chewing away on the left are nicely balanced by the incompetent dickheads dancing away on the right.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:07 AM

"If Hitler said the Earth circles the Sun would we have to go back to a geo-centric planetary system?"

Even Hitler realised that the previous attempt to enforce that did not work - due to ineffective enforcement...

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 07:59 AM

Guest: 27 August 7:57

Nice original imaginative writing.

This forum does not encourage lengthy cut & paste postings (see the FAQ). Google shows 38 hits for a search on a sizeable chunk of your post. A link to one of those would seem much more appropriate.

Of course, if you truly are Lietenant Joe Repya, then your comments are welcome, but you could have written something new here rather than repeating exactly what you've written so many times elsewhere.

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 07:11 AM

I don't give a rodent's rump if you are a republican, democrat, poligamist or pedestrian, we are in a quagmire just like Viet Nam, and that moron in the White House even admitted that we could not win a military victory over there. He said it on national tv, and I heard and saw him say it. So, why are we still there? Because he doesn't know how to get us out of it.

His press conference last week said it all when that reporter asked "What did Iraq have to do with 9/11"? and he answered, "NOTHING."

Ever wonder why Canada hasn't been attacked? Or Ireland? How about Denmark? Is it because they keep their noses out of other countries business?

The latest poll says 60% of Americans are against the war, ok, why the hell are we wasting our young people on a lost cause? So, that puppet government we set up over there is not strong enough to fight the insurgents on its own. What does that tell you?
How the hell can we "win" when we train Iraquis only to have them take their training and defect to the other side? Recently, some of them robbed a bank!

Even Senator McCain has come out in public and ragged on Bush for his handling of the war.When will the rest of us wake up?

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: GUEST,thew
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:11 AM

Who exactly has attacked us, Slag? Are you referring to 911? If so, who do you intend to fight and defeat in this war? Which country? Where and how?

What makes you think you even know who planned and carried out 911? Where is your proof?

You're taking the word of your leaders as to who it was. They may be lying.

Can your leaders be trusted to be totally honest about that? Or about anything?

What if you are on the wrong side in the upcoming war and your leaders planned and started it in the first place?

Then where does your "no substitute for victory" take us? That was probably why the comparison to Hitler was drawn, wouldn't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Slag
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:05 AM

Peace. I've got news for you. We are IN WW3. We were attacked every bit as severly as Pearl Harbor, more so. We are in a war like no other. And here's a news flash. ANYONE who goes to war, offense or defense understands or should understand (as no American President since Truman has understood) that there is no substitute for victory. And GEE, did Hitler really say that? Does that make it automatically NOT TRUE?? What do you on the left use for brains? If Hitler said the Earth circles the Sun would we have to go back to a geo-centric planetary system?

The fact that my head is still on my shoulders and I am typing in English let's me know that No, the US has not been defeated---YET. But if the little termites on the left keep gnawing away unchecked then, Yes we COULD lose this war.

And before you go off on Bush or some other tangent you might consider that war is not a contest to see who's government ist most pure and holy and correct and righteous, ad nauseum. It is a matter of survival. If we survive and at not too great of a cost then you can play your little finger pointing game and blame whoever doesn't belong to your political party. But, if the cost is high or we lose, then I think you are going to be a little too busy to worry about blame. Wake up and quit trying to saw off the limb you are perched upon.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 10:46 PM

"Such was the revulsion against the military at the war's end in Japan that the new civilian administration attempted to fairly much legislate the armed forces out of existence. They learned something from WWII."

... but not to be forgotten in all this, was the fact that Uncle Sam was, once again, sticking his dick in the whole process...

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: number 6
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 10:34 PM

That's a great song Foole!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 10:33 PM

Enough verses - time for another chorus.

Remember, the tune is 'Will the circle be unbroken'

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 10:05 PM

Possibly. But there was a tremendous sense of humiliation, regret, and anger on the part of the ordinary public at the military in Japan following the conclusion of the Pacific War. People were well aware that their military leaders had brought the country to ruin.

Such was the revulsion against the military at the war's end in Japan that the new civilian administration attempted to fairly much legislate the armed forces out of existence. They learned something from WWII. The USA (aside from the South in the Civil War) has never yet experienced a national lesson on that scale, so Americans have been able to remain a bit naive in that respect. They simply don't imagine that they can lose or that the chickens can finally come home to roost.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: number 6
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 09:46 PM

"I wonder if their families are grateful today that they didn't cut and run" .... they are probably grateful of what their loved ones did ... it's a 'cultural thing'... LH.

Merry Xmas Mr. Lawrence.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 09:44 PM

Very few Japanese soldiers cut and ran. Their bones still litter the grounds of the Pacific Islands where they mostly fought and died to the last man rather than give up. What a waste. I wonder if their families are grateful today that they didn't cut and run?

"There is no substitute for victory." Banzai!

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 08:50 PM

I'm tired of fuzzy thinking military types whose main object is to get promoted in their chosen career. Those who have forgotten Viet Nam, or don't see the same damn situation in Iraq.

And, speaking of "Cut and run" that idiotic mantra of the right wing whackos, when the current "leadership" has not one person who has actually served in combat. Every damn one of them ran from the draft.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 08:33 PM

That was exactly Hitler's view: "There is no substitute for victory." It has been every criminal conqueror's view, since the dawn of time.

God, it stirs the blood getting these impassioned declarations of unswerving determination from loyal soldiers who are unwittingly and in all good conscience serving the wrong side in an unjust war of aggression. Yessiree! Heady stuff. You gotta go talk to some of those old Nazi and Imperial Japanese veterans, Joe. They saw it just the way you do. "There is no substitute for victory!" Whooof!

Man, I gotta go and put on a couple of those old John Wayne movies now that I'm really in the mood...

Your cause is not just and noble, my friend. You've been had. You've been used. I hope you and your buddies get through it in one piece. The reason your homefront is demoralized is that people are beginning to realize that they, like you guys, were lied to and led down the garden path into a phony and unnecessary war which has no forseeable ending. Just like Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 08:05 PM

That was around a year ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 07:57 PM

"I'm Tired"

Two weeks ago, as I was starting my sixth month of duty in Iraq, I was
forced to return to the USA for surgery for an injury I sustained prior
to my deployment. With luck, I'll return to Iraq to finish my tour.

I left Baghdad and a war that has every indication that we are winning,
to return to a demoralized country much like the one I returned to in
1971 after my tour in Vietnam. Maybe it's because I'll turn 60 years old
in just four months, but I'm tired:

I'm tired of spineless politicians, both Democrat and Republican who lack
the courage, fortitude, and character to see these difficult tasks through.

I'm tired of the hypocrisy of politicians who want to rewrite history when
the going gets tough.

I'm tired of the disingenuous clamor from those that claim they 'Support
the Troops' by wanting them to 'Cut and Run' before victory is achieved.

I'm tired of a mainstream media that can only focus on car bombs and
casualty reports because they are too afraid to leave the safety of their
hotels to report on the courage and success our brave men and women are
having on the battlefield.

I'm tired that so many Americans think you can rebuild a dictatorship into a democracy over night.

I'm tired that so many ignore the bravery of the Iraqi people to go to
the voting booth and freely elect a Constitution and soon a permanent
Parliament.

I'm tired of the so called 'Elite Left' that prolongs this war by giving aid and comfort to our enemy, just as they did during the Vietnam War.

I'm tired of antiwar protesters showing up at the funerals of our fallen soldiers. A family who's loved ones gave their life in a just and noble cause, only to be cruelly tormented on the funeral day by cowardly protesters is beyond shameful.

I'm tired that my generation, the Baby Boom - Vietnam generation, who have such a weak backbone that they can't stomach seeing the difficult tasks through to victory.

I'm tired that some are more concerned about the treatment of captives than they are the slaughter and beheading of our citizens and allies.

I'm tired that when we find mass graves it is seldom reported by the press, but mistreat a prisoner and it is front page news.

Mostly, I'm tired that the people of this great nation didn't learn from history that there is no substitute for Victory.

Sincerely,
Joe Repya,
Lieutenant Colonel,
U. S. Army,
101st Airborne Division

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:26 PM

Has the US been defeated? That is much too simple a question, despite being a good one. The real question: "Has humanity been defeated?" Maybe we have, when isms mean more than people, and causes mean more than care.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:23 PM

Well, I hope Israel takes the first step to keep civilians out of wars. Getting rid of of Nasrallah would be a good start. He said, "Whoops" today in a news article. Basically, he hadn't expected the response Israel gave when the two soldiers were kidnapped and three others killed by Hezbollah people who were IN Israel at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:20 PM

Dear LH,

Sharing out the remaining oil is a nice idea but I suspect it's a bit like asking a tiger to share the deer it has just killed (yes, I know I'm rather over-doing these tiger metaphors!).

And Peace I agree with you, civilians should be kept out of wars - but hasn't the penny dropped yet? Everyone is a terrorist now - including democratic governments. The history of warfare in the Twentieth century was all about slaughtering civilians - much easier and more effective than trying to kill heavily armed and well-dug-in soldiers. And in the Twenty First century it's turning out to be 'business-as-usual', in spite of the proliferation of so-called 'smart weapons'.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:13 PM

Well, partly you're right. However, I'd prefer that those who want to fight do so with each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:08 PM

Sorry Peace--civilians haven't been kept out of wars for a long time--if ever. Ask the Germans during the 30 Years War--or closer to home--either the Tories or the rebel sympathizers--in New Jersey in 1776 or North and South Carolina a bit later on.

And even when the will of the commander is there to keep civilians from personal harm--as for instance Sherman in Atlanta--did it happen?

Any war is a disaster---that's why somebody who starts an unnecessary war by choice---to pick a purely theoretical example, Mr. Bush--belongs in the lowest circle of Hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:52 PM

Yeah. However, it would get Hezbollah responding for a change. And that would be a good thing. Sorry, but I think civilians SHOULD be kept out of wars. This way--selective killing--the people who cause the problem get to have ownership of it. Nice and neat. There will be mistakes--witness the revenge killings after the Munich Olympics. However bad that was, it is surely preferable to the deaths of 600 Lebanese who were effectively innocent, despite their government not being all that clean in the deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:46 PM

Bingo--just as the Saddam issue should have been dealt with by funding anti-Saddam groups in Iraq. But that wouldn't have given Bush the chance to continue as a "war president"--since Osama bin Forgotten proved to be hard to find.

And now that Israel has successfully built Nasrallah up as the new hero of poor Shiites, the assassination squads may have to be suicide squads too.

And if you kill him now--presto--another certified martyr.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:43 PM

That will leave the civilians out of the loop. Israel will get shit for that, too, but what the hell. If it's good enough for Nasrallah, it's good enough for Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:36 PM

Israel's mistake was this: They should have sent assassination teams to deal with Hezbollah leadership. I hope they do now.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:30 PM

Peace is correct. We are at great risk of WW III at this point. Which again points out why Israel's general attack on Lebanon was criminally stupid--or worse. Given that the elimination of Hezbollah was always an absurdly unrealistic goal, next best is the closest possible monitoring of Hezbollah--to make sure it's not getting access to nuclear technology.

Instead of that, Israel's attack on Lebanon has done nothing but strengthen Hezbollah, raise its reputation throughout the Arab world--among poor Shiites at least--and weaken the non-Hezbollah parts of the Lebanese government--which would have been in the best position to do this monitoring.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 08:15 PM

... but in the light of the time,he WAS considered very enlightened.

Unfortunately, so was a little Austrian Corporal...

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: 282RA
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 08:09 PM

>>I would like to see another requirement for all candidates running for president, a degree in history. Only one president had a background in history, Woodrow Wilson.<<

He favored the KKK and thought they were great. "Birth of a Nation" was based on his books.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: 282RA
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 08:07 PM

>>China truly does have the capacity to 'stop the bully' that our government has become in the world.<<

No thanks. That's OUR job not China's.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 07:46 PM

"Isn't that effectively the case now with oil being sold on the open market? "

At the moment there is JUST enough for everyone at a price they are prepared to pay - but come the Revolution, Comrades...

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 06:35 PM

"Wouldn't it be more sensible for everyone to just share the oil...."

Isn't that effectively the case now with oil being sold on the open market?

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 06:27 PM

Wouldn't it be more sensible for everyone to just share the oil....


(What!!!!! SACRILEGE! The very idea of people treating each other FAIRLY and GETTING ALONG with one another...somebody shoot the man who proposed that!)

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 05:55 PM

I am beginning to think that the US and its western allies are like a man with the proverbial tiger-by-the-tail. The 'tiger' is control of the world's oil supply, which the whole of US/western 'civilisation' is utterly dependent on. This is an unpalatable fact and although this situation leads to great suffering and injustice we have to ask the question what happens on the day we wake up and find that someone else (Iran? India? China?) controls the oil supply?
What complicates the situation is the unavoidable fact that the oil supply is dwindling and I suppose World War III will be (is already being?) fought over the last few dregs.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 08:13 AM

"The idea that one can punish a country so severely that it can never make war again"

... seem to remember hearing that was the feeling of Israel about Hezbollah too...


"Thus was set the stage for future eventualities such as the rise of Naziism, the Russo-German invasion of Poland in '39, the Russo-German non-aggression pact which so shocked the West in '39, and the whole ensuing bloody conflict of WWII."

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Tonto, disguised as a glove.... sorry...

Meanwhile, over in Asia, Japan started attacking other countries from as early as 1930...

Meanwhile, in the Mediterranean, prior to 1939, Italy carved out with military force, an empire in North Africca...

Meanwhile, in Spain, in the 1930s....

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 02:56 PM

The idea that one can punish a country so severely that it can never make war again is an idea about as criminal in intention as whatever that country itself may have done during the last war.

In any case, the German's main sin in WWI, a war into which all the involved powers enthusiastically stumbled through being entangled in binding alliances, was this: the Germans lost it. They also had fought very effectively and had almost won it. That made them the official "bad guys" when it ended....the official scapegoat for everyone's collective woes.

If they'd won it, someone else would have taken the blame and been "punished" for the whole thing, I'm sure. Probably France and Russia.

Russia, of course, was punished too after WWI because of their Communist revolution. The Allies fielded armies in Russia and assisted the White Russians against the Reds for some time, but the Reds won in the end regardless.

Thus was set the stage for future eventualities such as the rise of Naziism, the Russo-German invasion of Poland in '39, the Russo-German non-aggression pact which so shocked the West in '39, and the whole ensuing bloody conflict of WWII.

Revenge is never a good political policy....

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 01:42 PM

Yes, I know "The buck stops here":

A bio

"His efforts, for the most part, would end in vain. British Prime Minister Lloyd George and French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau resisted most of his ideas. To them the goal was to punish Germany to the extent that it could never make war again. They both were very conscious of the revengeful attitude of constituents, and would not budge. Wilson, through much effort, did manage to prevent some of the more extreme punishments against Germany, and convinced the allies that a League of Nations was necessary. With these small victories in hand Wilson headed home."

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:51 PM

"I'm always reminded of the Uncle Remus story of the rabbit and the tar baby. That's us!"

I was including Canada, India, China, etc., in that remark, Kendall. War is not a good thing, and as a human race we certainly lack enlightenment. It's easy to target the US for abuse, but it is equally easy to target any country in the world. As someone mentioned, the unequal distribution of resources causes an economic politic that is detrimental to peaceful co-existence. This situation reminds me of that simple old question from a pretty song: "When will they ever learn." Well, 'they' is 'us'. I hope that the UN is able to get lotsa troops into the mid-East. That itself may deter the thought of nuclear weapon use. I hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:49 AM

Yes, it was the Europeans who dictated the terms of the Treaty of Versailles.

I've thought since the middle 1990s that the US would be the target of a nuclear attack -- most likely on a populous city. Since the current crop of DC Dunderheads seems chomping at the bit to use a nuke this would give them the excuse.

And I don't see the bit about not learning anything "in the last forty years." Hell, humanity hasn't learned anything from experience since Ugh-Ugh crawled out of the cave and said, "Thing eating stick ouchy and HOT! Ow ow ow!" and wondered if the fire would be ouchy and hot if he touched it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:37 AM

Actually, Wilson had a plan for world peace, but he was such a stiff neck that he alienated congress. Then along came the Treaty of Versaille which demanded reparations from Germany, a beaten country on their knees. That's what caused the second war.Germans would rather die on their feet than live on their knees.
By the way, we did not go along with all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:46 AM

Didn't Woodrow Wilson make the treaties after world war one, that resulted in world war 2.

sorry if I got it wrong - I never listened to my history teacher. If I got it right though, it doesn't say much for the expertise of historians. A study of history isn't actually a guarantee of mental competence. I always thought A.L Rowse sounded crackers in interviews.

cheer up everybody, it may never happen....

this is a very gloomy thread.

I think it all comes down to the same thing. Not enough of us normal folk get involved in politics, so idiots like Thatcher, Bush etc get to the top of the tree.

I never bothered with politics. I always thought, if I| stood for election or whatever, stories of my less than glorious past(complete with drunken exploits) would surface and it would bring down more trouble on the party that I joined. I think in retrospect I was too timid.

Everybody knew Bush was in hock to the armaments people and there was going to be a war - that was a given, before he was elected.   Nobody liked him - not even the Republicans like Martin Gibson.

Consider the inexorable nature of the situation. If you are reading this - you are still alive. Cheer up - things could have been much worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:10 AM

"The second nuclear war will be accidental"


Oh, I think the Iranian bombing of Israel will be quite deliberate. The real question is what is the rest of the world going to do after the fact, since we do not seem able to do anything to stop it.


Still waiting on the negotiations between the EU and Iran about stopping uranium enrichment.....

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:06 AM

The second nuclear war will be accidental, all subsequent ones will be intentional.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:00 AM

The use of a given weapon is only considered to be "unthinkable" until it's been done (or in the case of atomic weapons...done again, since the USA already used then in 1945). Then all bets are off.



The ONLY acceptable response, other than unconditional surrender, to a nuclear attack is an overwhelming destruction of the attacking country, and all of it's active supporters- Otherwise, the world community has made it clear that the use of such weapons would be acceptable, and they will continue to be used.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:36 AM

"China truly does have the capacity to 'stop the bully' that our government has become in the world."

...and become 'King Bully'#...

The US has indeed lost. The latest figures show that the GDP of 'the developing world' which includes China, India, Russia, etc, now exceeds 'the developed world', of which the USA was the leader...



#My apologies to Aussie Culture Icon 'King Billy'...

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 06:55 AM

I would like to see another requirement for all candidates running for president, a degree in history. Only one president had a background in history, Woodrow Wilson.

The current "president" majored in business.

You are right, we haven't learned "jack shit" in the last 40 years.

I'm always reminded of the Uncle Remus story of the rabbit and the tar baby. That's us!

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Janie
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 06:44 AM

So would I, Dianavan. But it isn't 'just going to happen.' Our government, and apparently a mjority of our voting public no longer understand the concept of 'enlightened self-interest.'

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 03:47 AM

Unfortunately, Janie, China may be able to stop the U.S. but it is quite possibly a bigger bully than the U.S. in terms of human rights.

I'd be happy if the U.S. just stayed home and stopped trying to control the flow of the world's resources.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 03:46 AM

If the objective of a military campaign is to render military opposition ineffective, the US failed even militarily in Vietnam.

With respect, it has been obvious for several years now, at least, that the USA is the single greatest threat to the survival of life on earth (as we know it).

With the benefit of hindsight the increased role for Iran in the middle east is as obvious as the cane toad in Queensland, the grey squirrel in England, the rabbit in Australia and Japanese knotweed anywhere it is introduced. Eliminate the natural controls on a life form and it burgeons.

Now what are we going to do about human beings? Or is Iran (or the USA) going to do it for us?

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Janie
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:08 AM

My hope, perhaps unrealistic, is with the role China could potentially play as a stabilizing force, provided they see the opportunity and are prepared to seize it. If they are really paying close attention to the Middle East, and if they perhaps have a better insight into the culture and the paradigm(s) that inform both the Mid-East and central Asia than does the USA, they have the potential to provide a major counterbalance to the West, especially the USA, and to do it in a way that is not completely 'cold war confrontational.' Russia does not quite have the strength, the subtlety or the stability itself to do that. It can be a stumbling block for the USA, but no more than that. China truly does have the capacity to 'stop the bully' that our government has become in the world.

    Maybe I just can't face that the unthinkable is about to happen, and that my country will have been a major, if not the primary, source of such a world disaster.

    And in the meantime, what do we say to our young sons and daughters, and how can we do what we can to protect ourselves from the potential holocaust to come. How do we face the real potential that the destruction that we have fostered on the everday lives of people elsewhere in the world may be about to be visited upon us.

    All I really understand or care about is the currency of everyday lives.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:39 PM

Peace, I think you are correct about the risk of nuclear weapons being used soon in the Middle East, and the risk of WWIII. I think this is the most dangerous and unstable situation we've seen in the world in a very long time.

The use of a given weapon is only considered to be "unthinkable" until it's been done (or in the case of atomic weapons...done again, since the USA already used then in 1945). Then all bets are off.

I think it would considerably take more than a single nuclear weapon to kill 10 million, by the way, but I suppose it would depend on which kind of warhead and exactly where it went off. One in the middle of a very densely populated city like Mexico City or Tokyo, for instance, might well kill 10 million if it was a big enough one. I'm not so sure about New York or L.A. when it comes to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:19 PM

"Has the U.S. been defeated?" Just as in Vietnam, militarily obviously not. Politically and morally? We lost by the very act of beginning.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 10:15 PM

"Has the U.S. been defeated?"

You can sing this song to the tune "Will the circle be unbroken".

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 09:54 PM

Recently there was an article on the web which stated that a 'low-level' cleric (I don't know what that means) gave bin Laden the OK to kill 10,000,000 with a nuclear device--essentially, the cleric said that that would be OK with Allah. The target was, of course, the USA. I cannot see any country that possesses nuclear weapons letting that ride. I think the response would be devastating. It would have to hit more than one or two countries. Other countries/states that have nuclear weapons and delivery systems--even if that means trucks or luggage and people who are willing to take their chances--would likely see that as an opportunity to even some scores and harm some enemies. In the carnage, folks could sit back and say, "Who? ME? No way." IMO, we are closer to WW III than ever in our past. I include the Cuban Missile Crisis in that remark. We just ain't learned jack shit in forty-four years.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Beer
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 09:41 PM

I rarely get into these threads, but Peace, unfortunately I think you hit the nail on the head.
Beer

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 09:35 PM

Unless the Middle East is defused soon, there will be nuclear weapons used.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: mg
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 09:33 PM

Well, probably. Best of luck to everyone in whatever happens next. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 09:32 PM

Link here.

Takes about five seconds to load.

Subject: RE: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 09:30 PM

Here we go:

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1245602006

The quote was imbedded in an article about the Israel's purchase of two new nuclear subs.

Subject: BS: Has the U.S. been defeated?
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 09:22 PM

Bush has sure cost the American taxpayer alot of money and seriously damaged their international prestige. It now looks as if the U.S. has lost in the Middle East and Iran has emerged as a very powerful country.

"The report said the US had eliminated Iran's two main regional rivals, the Taleban in Afghanistan and Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq, but "has failed to replace either with coherent and stable structures". Iran now wields more influence than the US in Iraq and is also a "prominent presence" in Afghanistan.

"There is little doubt that Iran has been the chief beneficiary of the war on terror," the report added."

OOps - I lost the link - I think it was the New Scotsman. I'll try to find it.