BS: Custody Issues

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:21 PM

Too bad she even put his name on the birth cetificate. The kid doesn't need a sperm donor like that! No way would it be good for her to move closer to the jerk.

reminds me of my first husband who "traded" me one month's child support of $50 for a turquoise ring I had on that he wanted.

Take care of yourself...{{{{HUGS}}}}

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:11 PM

Yes, you are right on many levels. They do not have a formal child support order because every time she asks about it he threatens to take the child. I just got off the phone with her and she is angry and I am glad. She'll get a lot accomplished now that she's more clear. She's been writing and writing about things to bring up and this threat about child support is definately on the list. The more we talk about it, the more clear it is that he will be spinning his wheels. Most of all, she is curious about WHY he is doing this and WHY now? What's the motivation? Oh yes, he has stipulated in all his papers that she will get to claim the child on her taxes one year and him the next. Isn't that an odd thing to bring up when he is supposedly so concerned about his son? How odd is it that it's occuring at tax time? It's coming together...he's a new daddy with a new wife, going to school full time and working part time...he needs the cash....and that SSI check won't hurt either, will it?

I hate to think the motivation for all this is cash but people have done worse for less. He doesn't care about this child, never has. When my friend was in labor, the daddy was on the couch in front of the TV. She begged him to take her to the hospital and his reply was this: "Why should I? I didn't want the little bastard in the first place." Nice. The only way she got him to go to the hospital was to threaten to not give the child his last name.

You get the idea. The guy is a jerk. Lazy. Selfish. Always has been. Always will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:47 PM

$120 a month child support? What decade are we talking about here? That was barely adequate child support in the 1970s. And who checks to see that he pays like he should? I can't get my child support without it going through the county--which I find annoying as hell because they get around to it and can delay it for more than a week at times, whereas if it were sent directly to my bank by his employer I'd get it every two weeks like clockwork. But the county does this to make sure I get it, they would investigate if it wasn't being sent. Every county in the state has to do this.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 05:24 PM

Moving closer to the father isn't possible and in this case is a very bad idea. She is unable to do much more than she already does but he, on the other hand, is very able but too lazy to put forth the effort. If he cared about the boy, he'd get here.

The boy is 11.

The lack of support ($30.00 a week/sporadically) is what the dad gives her when he feels like it. When she has asked him to be more regular about it or to go to court and have legal child support put into place he threatens to take the boy.

No word from her today but I did see her from a distance. Big giant Nicole Richie type glasses on, no doubt to cover up her red eyes. She did go to work and that is a plus.

She does not drink on a regular basis. I think she talks about it more than she does it. In fact, I'm sure of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 04:47 PM

What country is this all occurring in? How old is this boy?

The mother is a mess, no doubt about it. There is a lot of passive aggressive stuff going on in the father's behavior that should be straightened out by the court. Here in Texas if you can't work it out yourselves, you HAVE to follow the state mandated formula regarding support and visitation in the divorce settlement. Parents can be held in contempt, can be fined, or put in jail. The threat is real enough to bring a lot of deadbeats around. And certainly, the new wife of the ex shouldn't be able to call the shots regarding contact. Sounds like something out of "Babes in the Woods."

The mother's depression is clear, no time, lots of stress. The child is acting out and the parents don't seem to get it, so it will get worse. Best thing she could do is (if he won't move closer to her) to move close to the father and insist on regular contact and reasonable support. Put the kids first. It's a horrible time to try to start another personal relationship of her own. Just what she needs--another needy person in her life. Make a few lists, prioritize, dump some excess baggage. And stop drinking. Self-medicating is the worst thing she can do at this point.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:19 AM

1. We have discussed depression and she is hesitant to seek medical attention in this area as she feels it will compromise her job (it won't but that is what she has in head).

2. She has made some concerning comments to which I have pointed out that if she decides to do something really stupid, it won't be just the one child's custody in jeopardy, but all the others.

3. A day out of shopping would sound like heaven to her on any given day. She rarely is able to take time out for herself and inevitably when we do go out, something happens with the kids. Her time is EXTREMELY limited as she works 2 jobs, is a single parent with several children. When she isn't working, the woman is EXHAUSTED. She is hesitant to accept outside help often saying, "It's my responsibility." I agree but I also think there is a limit.

4. This woman is the sister I never had. We've known each other for well over 20 years and have even lived together for a year. She's more family than friend. I can understand what you are saying about being on the sideline but I'm not sure I can know about this and be detached. I love her. I love her children. It breaks my heart to see her like this.

5. The father has been a holiday dad at best. He lives less than an hour away but sees his son maybe once a month while visiting his parents who live in the area. He takes the boy for overnights about once every 3 months and more often than not, returns him early because he can't handle the child. The boy has been stealing. Yes, it can be a phase but the intensity is growing. The mother does not have the father's phone number as his wife does not want her to call. All calls are made through the grandmother if and when she feels like calling and thinks the message is important. On his last visit, when informed of the stealing, his one and only comment to his son was, "Do it again and I'll break your fucking arm." It's an empty threat, I'm sure of that but how useful is that?

I talked with her for several more hours yesterday (she did not go to work as she just was unable to function). She sounds better, has a bit less panic in her voice and she is exhausted. She is physically exhausted and mentally exhausted. She's had enough. I'm hoping she'll wake up today and be ready to fight. It's not like her to lay down and give up on anything. If and when she moves beyond the panic and sadness of this situation, I would not want to be the father. Rage isn't pretty either but it will be easier for her to manage than being so overwhelmed.

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: Janie
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:41 AM

Guest,

This is for you, and not about your firend. It may be helpful to you to remind yourself of your own boundaries--to remind yourself of the limits of your own power, and that we can never shoulder the burden of another's pain, or 'fix' another person's life. You can support her by validating how very difficult things are for her right now, and you can affirm and be a cheerleader. But we are always on the sidelines when it comes to the lives of other people. We will experience much less frustration when we don't see movement in the direction WE tthink should happen if we can remember that. We are much less likely to withdraw what actual support we can effectively offer if we are not so invested in the outcome that we risk feeling like a failure ourselves if the person doesn't get unstuck.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: mg
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:21 AM

She probably shouldn't lose custody of the son, but he might be of an age, sounds like he is, where he needs a father (of course he needs a father at every age unless he is one of the rare ones who doesn't). Not a father figure, but a real life father, flaws and all. Perhaps no custody overnight, but definite times to see him and spend good blocks of time with him. Now, if the father is a drunkard, abusive, violent etc. he should only have supervised visits and none at all depending on the type of abuse..if it is along the lines of road rage then perhaps supervised visits but in some situations no contact. Mothers will manipulate at times, not your friend I am sure, and many do not realize the deep need that some, not all, boys have for their fathers. Has this been discussed with the boy? Probably a social worker should. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: JennyO
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 09:51 PM

It would probably also be a good idea when encouraging her to see a doctor, to point out that because she has had a whole series of stressors in a short period, she is a prime candidate for depression, and that it is particularly important now for her to stay well and on top of things, so that she can demonstrate that she is a suitable parent and the father can't exploit any weakness or instability that she might show if she is too distraught. So having a doctor prescribe something mild to help her cope might be a good thing.

Therapy and talking is also going to help her a lot, and it sounds like you are doing the right thing as a good friend. Make sure this doesn't drain you too much also. Why don't you distract her with shopping, or a movie, or anything else you think she might have fun with? It would give you both a break.

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:07 PM

GUEST,
Many of us here have been in similar situations. Nothing is right; everything is wrong. And then someone walks in threatening to take your child away.

Your friend has taken the initiative on legal help and family counseling. She is open with you about her feelings and even that she is drinking sometimes to cope.

Listen. You have been good at this so far. If she is in counseling with her children, her depression will become evident and she will be steered towards therapy. Maybe the group counseling will be all she needs.

Meantime, a friend who is willing to listen is worth her weight in gold. Sometimes, just being able to say things out loud gives you a different perspective. She can't see the forest for the trees. Keep pointing out the trees and a few roses along the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: GUEST,guest ridgeplucker
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:08 PM

Guest,

From being on of those kids that as stuck in one of those battles you are talking about I can say a couple of things from experience.

1. If you are in a small town area go outside the area for a lawyer. The local ones are all in each others pockets and crooked like the local priests but that is another topic for a different day.

2. Lots of times an absent parent that up and decides one day to be an actual parent is just trying to throw their weight around. Once the actual thought of making a room up, feeding, clothing, and all the other stuff they have not been doing or paying for that comes with it comes to light their tune changes real quick.

3. The Mother in this case should first write out all that this father has missed (birthdays, christmas(if they do this holiday) etc..) Also just what has this loser contributed to her sons life.

4. Fore most you need to tell her to GROW SOME BALLS and not to back down from this clown and take the fight to him. If her son needs help and she is willing to get some for him that is the main focus here and the most important.

5. The most important is focus on the child. It is very easy for adults to lose sight that they are fighting over a part of them not a thing. I know it would have been nice when I was a kid watching all the "grown ups" fighting over what was best for me if they once stop and thought just what that was.



Hope all works out for the best,

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:41 PM

No, I know, what I outlined is not easy. It is simple, but simple is not always easy. You will have to furnish all the persistence-- your friend cannot furninsh anything right now except the deep pain and terror she's feeling. Don't forget, though, you get to take a break from the awfulness, too. You do not have to be available every time called upon (or you'll get stuck too).

So don't forget to smell the roses, yourself.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: jeffp
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:07 PM

Sounds like you are doing the right things. Sometimes a kick in the ass and a good hug are the most important contributions you can make. It can be a long, ugly road ahead. I hope you are able to stay the course with her. Good friends are very important.

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:59 PM

I should also add that after several hours (between the custody and the fuss about getting the child some help) of listening and talking and listening more, I have been loving and kind and also bluntly honest with her. I haven't sugar coated anything. I have also tried to light a fire under her rear to get her moving to do SOMETHING, ANYTHING. It appears that is helping even though I don't like doing it. What are best friends for if not to lean on and kick you in the ass when you really need it and then give you a hug?

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:49 PM

1. Legal counsel is in the works.
2. She has been pointed in the direction of someone who knows the system more than myself and can advise her what to do.
3. Counseling appointment already made for her and the children.
4. I tried to get her to phone her Dr. for some medical help. This is not the only thing on her plate. Her father figure was just re-diagnosed with cancer after a remission, she has to have surgery next month, she has other children who are delayed and receiving therapy, a 16 year old daughter who injured herself and now has physical therapy 20 miles from home, twice a week, her mother figure just returned home from the hospital, she works 2 jobs, tries to help her adopted family at every turn and is doing what she feels is best for her children. Let's add to this pile that she recently has gone through a miserable break-up (not the dad of the boy who's custody is in question). She needs help. I know I can't give it to her. I have been at her home and we've laughed over other things but this last piece, the custody papers this morning, were the icing on the cake for her. I am not looking for legal advice (Capt. Ginger) but rather for information about how I can help my friend from drowning. Legal advice is forth-coming. My understanding is that the two parents will meet in a mediation meeting and try to come to some type of compromise. If a compromise can't be reached, then they will have to go to court, a specialized trial of sorts where witnesses are allowed to speak as well as the parents and children.

She has asked me to come drink with her on more than one occassion after a bitch session and I continue to tell her that drinking won't do any good. I tell her I'll come over but the wine needs to stay corked and that's what happens. I'm clear with her when I don't know and have encouraged her to seek professional advice (which it looks like she has started).

I hate to see her hurt so much, HATE IT. As with any custody battle, there is more to it but you have the basics. I'll try what Susan said, I've been trying to get her to focus on other things but its not as easy as it sounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:17 PM

This is all something that varies enormously according to what country you're in, or even what part of the country - both the actual law, and the places where people can turn to for help.

What Captain Ginger said, basically.

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:16 PM

The best thing my lawyer told me when I was going through something similar was to keep a journal of every interaction, action, etc. with the father. The next time we took him to court for no child support, we had documentation that buried him.

There comes a point when listening for hours on end isn't doing either of you any good. It just allows her to *wallow* stay on dead center and do nothing but stay in a "victim-head." Susan's stuff is good. I would urge you to try it and be sure to tell your friend you will go with her to an attorney, etc. but you will not continue to listen to her say the same stuff over and over. AND, explain to her why.

Good luck,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:45 PM

Yes, get your friend to see a professional solicitor/lawyer and to go along with what the school suggests. Ultimately your friend will need a legal settlement in this issue. You will do her no favours trawling for advice on a folk music forum.
If you feel ill, do you seek the advice of a doctor or do you ask the opinion of everyone in the nearest bus queue?

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: jeffp
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:42 PM

Don't count on court-appointed guardian at litems being competent or giving proper representation. The one my stepkids had was absolutely useless. Even the kids thought so. Get competent legal counsel and document every failing on the part of the father. It sounds nasty, but custody cases are. Also, check into whether or not there will be a record of the hearing. In Virginia, you have to hire your own court reporter for Family Court hearings if you want there to be a transcript of the proceedings.

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:21 PM

Fight him, counter claim, and ask for child support payment too! We're talking a child here, not a bargaining counter. The court will appoint someone to look after the child's interest anyway, so he will get proper representation. Don't worry too much about the lying stealing thing, a lot of kids go through that, the school human services program should help with that. Remember courts more often give custody to Mothers than to Fathers!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Custody Issues
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:19 PM

Yes, you are in too deep. She's trying to get the kind of support that will let her vent the upset and then think more clearly about it-- but from the way it sounds like you are feeling, you aren't able to muster up the detachment necessary to allow her to do this in a relaxed, confident way. And not being able to do that is normal!

The best thing you can do to shift that is to help her get her attention off the distress, letting her know as a friend it will do you both good to shift focus for a break from the scariness of this. Then cheerfully invite her to tell you her name spelled backwards, her birthday added to today's date-- simple, silly puzzlers that will be completely outside the topic of the upset. Next move to asking about childhood images-- what was your favorite red thing when you were little, what was the stinkiest thing you ever smelled, how many books did you have and what were they, etc.

Try this before telling me why it's wrong or won't work, OK?

Once her teariness has given way to giggling, let her know that you want to be her friend in this situation, and that as a friend you will go with her to go get some EXPERIENCED help in dealing with it. Be readay with some suggestions, or ask her if she has considered anyone to talk to-- legal or mental health. Believe it or not, if you really expect her to think about that, she will know what she needs to do.

You may need to do this a couple of times.

It isn't cruel to help someone take a break from the pit. The pit will still be there for her to resume dealing with, and a short break from it will be good for you both.

~Susan

Subject: BS: Custody Issues
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 11:59 AM

I have a friend who was just served papers. Her son's father has decided he wants custody of the child. He's been an absentee father, one who has withheld a decent amount of child support saying that if she ever filed for support he would take her son away. Recently the child has been stealing and a lot of lying. It caught up with him in the form of a school meeting. The school recommended a human services program to help. The mom agrees to it. The dad agreed to it too after an initial hissy fit. There is no abuse or neglect going on in the house. I do not think the dad can take the child away but my friend is understandably upset. She is refusing to take any initiative to help herself. She calls and talks for hours and cries and I listen. It's like watching a train wreck. I can see the trains coming at each other, they are slow and loud but not paying attention to any of the signs around them warning them that a disaster is about to occur. I am frustrated and concerned for her. Any suggestions?