BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape

Subject: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:17 AM

GET US THE TAPE THE L.A. TIMES REFUSES TO RELEASE, AND WE'LL GIVE YOU CASH!

By Binyamin L. Jolkovsky


JewishWorldReview.com | For the last week, this site has been receiving mail -- lots of mail -- asking that we somehow shame the Los Angeles Times into releasing a videotape they admit to having that shows then Illinois state Sen. Barak Obama praising Rashid Khalidi, the one-time PLO spokesman/adviser during a 2003 farewell party in Chicago before his moving to head the Middle East Studies Department at Columbia University.


At what turned out to be a "Jew-bash", Obama, who the polls say will likely be the next leader of the Free World, chose to remain silent. Even after the presentations, the politician who now says he's in favor of a secure Israel refused to denounce what he had just heard. Including, according to the Times:


A " young Palestinian American recit[ing] a poem accusing the Israeli government of terrorism in its treatment of Palestinians and sharply criticizing U.S. support of Israel. If Palestinians cannot secure their own land, she said, "then you will never see a day of peace."

And another speaker likened "Zionist settlers on the West Bank" to Osama bin Laden, saying both had been "blinded by ideology."


The anti-Israel Arab American Action Network sponsored the gala. Obama reportedly helped funnel tens of thousands of dollars to them.


Obama did say, according to the LA Times, that his conversations with Khalidi over the years had influenced his thinking. They became "consistent reminders to me of my own blind spots and my own biases" in regard to the Israeli-Arab crisis.


There's likely a lot more information on that tape that the electorate needs to be informed of.


I'm willing to personally get $5,000 to anybody who can get me a verified digital copy of the events of that evening. If readers want to add money, we'll raise the "bounty".


Once we get the video, which we'll need by Friday, we will post it online for anybody to link to. We will return it back to the "public domain" where it belongs.


If you have the tape, know somebody who does or wish to "chip in", please click here.

Every weekday JewishWorldReview.com publishes what many in Washington and in the media consider "must reading." Sign up for the daily JWR update. It's free. Just click here.


The writer is the Editor in Chief of JewishWorldReview.com

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:44 AM

The stench of desperation is getting pretty strong in here these days.


John McCain's ties to Rashid Khalidi

'During the 1990s, while he served as chairman of the International Republican Institute (IRI), McCain distributed several grants to the Palestinian research center co-founded by Khalidi, including one worth half a million dollars.

A 1998 tax filing for the McCain-led group shows a $448,873 grant to Khalidi's Center for Palestine Research and Studies for work in the West Bank. (See grant number 5180, "West Bank: CPRS" on page 14 of this PDF.)

The relationship extends back as far as 1993, when John McCain joined IRI as chairman in January. Foreign Affairs noted in September of that year that IRI had helped fund several extensive studies in Palestine run by Khalidi's group, including over 30 public opinion polls and a study of "sociopolitical attitudes."'

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:47 AM

1. The whole tape schmear is possibly a bamboozle
2. The description of the contents of the tape is probably a bamboozle, at least.
3. You might want to observe that all this strenuous derogation is based on a hypothetical rumor about what might be on a tape that might exist.




A

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:32 PM

Nothing quoted there sounds anywhere near as extreme as Obama's speech saying that an undivided Jerusalem should be the capital of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 03:37 PM

Like the 100 MPG carburetor, the fact that no one can find the tape just 'proves' how well they have hidden it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:01 PM

The Times doesn't deny having the tape.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: jeffp
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:07 PM

I don't deny having it, either.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:11 PM

OK - I admit it.I have it. But then again - I AM SPARTICUS !!!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:25 PM

The Jewish community is looking for a duplicate, because the LA Times won't release the copy they have to the public.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:38 PM

Is there proof that it really exists? It could be just another dirty political trick to claim the existence of something that really isn't there. If the only source for it's existence is the guy offering the reward then I would have my doubts. It's easy to offer a reward for something you know will never show up. Something to think about....

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM

The Times claims that the article they published describes in detail everything on the tape. They refuse to release the tape because that was their agreement with their source. The fact that they published the article, in their minds, proves them unbiased.

The October Surprise? Another desperate attempt to turn the tide?

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 05:07 PM

Criticism of Israel is not "Jew-bashing" - and listening politely to such criticisms is not anti-semitic - especially in a politician who, if anything, has indicated himself to be rather extreme in his support of Israeli claims.

And that expression "the Jewish community is looking for..." implies a degree of unanimity among diaspora Jes which does not exist.

For example, here's the webpage of an organisation that was launched a few days ago - International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network (I found it from a mention by (Jewish) columnist Michele Hanson in this week's Guardian, where they include a note of what the columnists have been up to that week:

This week Michele watched In Love With Barbara: "A mesmerising portrayal of Barbara Cartland by Anne Reid, which made me almost fond of someone I thought I couldn't bear. Fabulous acting from everyone." She attended the launch of the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network: "Which shows that not all Jews are Zionists. And about time too."

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 05:45 PM

"The Times claims that the article they published describes in detail everything on the tape."



                So hopefully, the Jewish Community will be sucessful in coming up with another copy of the tape. It might indict the LA Times as well.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 06:05 PM

Rig, you're getting desperate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 06:15 PM

If McCain's willing to give Khalidi almost a half million dollars, Khalidi must be an ok guy, right?

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 06:28 PM

Not necessarily! McCain was probably running a clandestine operation.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 06:42 PM

Yeah, sure. Someone pass the air freshener, please.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 06:56 PM

Rig is the best example I know of the metaphor:

"First you throw the dart, THEN you draw the bullseye!"

He is absolutely set on what the final answer should be, so any silliness to explain or defend it is employed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:27 PM

Giving out the tape would invite the use of out-of-context sound-bites to give a completely distorted picture of what actually happened, in the way that we've all seen happen. In the context of an election it would be an extremely partisan thing to do.

Moreover it would evidently involve breaking a promise to the source. That is not something that can airily be waved away.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 09:15 PM

Well, hopefully the Jewish community will be able to come up with another copy so they'll be able to defend themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 12:16 AM

No surprise who's pushing this hardest on Mudcat--our top bottom-dweller, Mr. Riginslimer.

And in addition to our own favorite scum-sucker, it's also not much of surprise who is pushing it elsewhere--McCain/Palin and their shrill partners in distortion on right-wing radio and TV--not the Jewish community at large.

Finally there's no doubt what Limbaugh, Hannity et. al would do with the tape once they got it--take out the most incendiary 2 minutes or so--say the controversial poem, for instance---and broadcast it non-stop on the Net etc. til the end of Tuesday--and then even afterward.

It would be one thing if the people allegedly so concerned with "right to know" would actually broadcast the entire tape--so any controversial part would be seen in context.

But it's painfully obvious that all they're after is Rev. Wright Part ll--and they will never put any chosen clip into context.

All they want is a knee-jerk reaction--from the jerks who respond to such a stimulus.

Like our dear friend who started this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:05 AM

Ron - Maybe you didn't have time to read the original post. These are the folks who want the LA Times to release the tape -- JewishWorldReview.com -- and this is the fellow who wrote the post you would have read, if you'd taken the time to do so -- Binyamin L. Jolkovsky.


                As far as McCain is concerned, he's probably better off, or just as well off in any event, if the paper continues to refuse to release the tape. Enough people know that it exists, and they don't deny it, so he can continue to use it as an issue. He can continue to bash both the media (the LA Times in this case) and Obama, without having to do anything more with it.

                I can see, however, why you've quit accusing you political opponents of engaging in conspiracy theories. You've decided to engage in irrational theories of your own.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:12 AM

That could go either way for McCain. I heard one member of the Jewish community say last night that he finds this kind of pandering by McCain to be quite insulting. So depending on how the numbers line up, this one could backfire on McCain very badly.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:24 AM

The World Jewish Review, which can be held up as a good counter to the argument that all Jews are on the left (or at least left of center), no doubt has its own axes to grind.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 09:13 AM

I'm surprised no one has posted a link to the article in the LA Times at the centre of this. Here is such a link - it only took a few seconds to find it

Referring to the bits that have been quoted about how Palestinians feel anger at things Israel has done, with the backing of the USA, it goes on to say how "...Obama adopted a different tone in his comments and called for finding common ground."

But I don't imagine that the clips which would come up on YouTube, if the LA Times were to break its word and release the tape wwould show that part.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: jeffp
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 09:38 AM

Don't introduce facts into this!!!!! Are you out of your mind?!?!?!?!?!?

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 10:15 AM

Well McGrath, you managed to find the LA Times edited view of the occasion, but there's no mention at all about William Ayers even being there. They apparently wrote what the newspaper wanted the reader to believe, but there must be something on that tape somebody doesn't want the public to see.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 10:58 AM

JOHN McCain hawked this SECRET tape on Larry King last night as Why can't we see it, what are they hiding.

What John did not admit was that the Repbublican party paid Rashic to be a member of their Middle East Strategy Team that wax chaired by... John McCain.

The answer to John is that he can see it but the LA Times said that they must pay them to own the tape. The RNC doesn't want to pay.
Hey Sarah Palin didn't get the clothes for free either.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 12:24 PM

However it plays out, it seems to be working as a campaign ploy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 12:42 PM

What the article in the LA Times shows is that Obama was, even back then, a man who thinks..who tries to see all sides of an issue, and who tries to understand the concerns and problems of everyone.

   Any president who pretends he can guide this nation through the enormous complexities of the world's tensions, especially in the Middle East, without hearing and learning what all sides have to say, will fail miserably. Obama does NOT start with the presumption that he must 'choose' one side over another and enter every discussion with the assumption that there is only one side to the debate. He has made clear that he considers Israel to be a friend and that he wishes to protect their interests....but NOT by totally ignoring the concerns of the Palestinians and the fact that they are humans with families and history, too.

Obama is what I want in a president....one who thinks and listens, even when it involves delicate issues. He has said he will, at times, sit down and talk to even those leaders of nations who we consider dangerous and who are engaged in dangerous behavior.
Nixon did it with China; Reagan did it with the USSR.... and Republicans like to think they did some good!(and even Bush has talked to a couple of folks recently that, if a Democrat did it, would be called 'appeasement'..)
It's only when Democrat does it that 'getting information' and 'creating a dialogue' becomes 'consorting with evil terrorists'.

It is truly sad that some folks cannot see the issues in other than black & white "evil or good" answers.

   The closer this election gets, the shriller and more desperate the wild accusations become.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 12:54 PM

What the LA Times shows is what the paper wants the reader to see.


                  But I would agree with this:

    "The closer this election gets, the shriller and more desperate the wild accusations become."

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 12:56 PM

"What the LA Times shows is what the paper wants the reader to see."'

Exactly. It appears they show the truth in their reporting.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:14 PM

...there's no mention at all about William Ayers even being there." If he wasn't on the podium or being recognized, why should he be mentioned? He is, after all, basically unimportant.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:15 PM

One could make the case that he seemed to be unimportant as the time; he's not unimportant now.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:17 PM

"It appears they show the truth in their reporting."


          Well, there's a first time for everything.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:19 PM

"Well, there's a first time for everything. "

I can't wait for Rush Limbaugh's first time - all the talking points of his lemmings will finally change!

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:20 PM

"Well, there's a first time for everything."

no, I can think of a couple things we are still waiting for, and for which I will not hold my breath: such as fair & balanced posts by Rig.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:24 PM

After the election, I imagine Rig will settle down. Very probably by the time the next election come round he'll remember himself as backing Obama this time...

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:42 PM

And after the election, I expect Prof. Ayers will return to the obscurity from which the McCain campaign should never have tried to lift him.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:46 PM

Funny! You're all very funny:-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:59 PM

...and our mothers wear army boots...

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:01 PM

Things are worse than I thought!

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:23 AM

Not that gutter-dwellers like Limbaugh, Palin/McCain and our own dear Mr. Riginslimer --(tip of the hat to Ebbie for that felicitous formulation)-- would have any interest, but for the rest of us--that is, those interested in more than one side of a story, and in facts and logic, rather than a steady diet of sewage, here's a different perspective:

Source: LA Times 30 Oct 2008


"The reporter's editor said the paper would have preferred to be able to post the video on its website, but could not get the source to agree".

"If we had not reached this agreement, we would not have had access to this tape at all."

Further, the article goes on to point out that there are both legal and ethical reasons for holding to the agreement.

The obvious first argument is that if the reporter wants sources to agree to supply him in the future, he'd best keep his word. Otherwise his sources will clam up.

Secondly, as the quote above points out, without the agreement, there would have been no article, since the source would not have provided the tape. Therefore the public would have had no information. That, I suppose, would be preferable to Mr. Riginslimer--since somehow I suspect that the public's right to know is not actually his #1 priority. Further up the scale for Mr. Hypocrite is just possibly his desire to smear Obama one more time.

And lastly there is the fact that per the 30 Oct 2008 LA Times article: "In 1991 the US Supreme Court ruled that the First Amendment does not protect the media from breach-of-contract claims by sources with whom it makes confidentiality agreements".

So it seems that for Mr. Riginslimer's sacred "right to know", the LA Times would be putting itself in jeopardy.

Somehow I can see why they decline to do so for the benefit of the motley crew of filth-spewers now pressuring them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 07:12 AM

Ron - You diminish the effect of your own argument when you use language like that. But I suppose other readers have come to realize that it's just your childish nature.

                  In any event, as mentioned in an earlier post, McCain is probably better off to have the issue of the Times refusing to release the video, so he can bash both the paper and Obama.

                  And now that Sean Hannity has come up with a book that he says was published by William Ayers in 1974, and that the book is dedicated to Sirhan Sirhan, it's even more relevant than ever that Ayers was at that gathering.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 09:19 AM

Let's see now...Person A is involved in an inept series of bombings in 1969. A right-wing TV 'journalist" claims to have a book published (or was that written?) by person A in 1974, allegedly dedicated to a murderer. 25 years or so later, person A and person B are on a couple of community boards at the same time and, a few years later, are involved in a rather confusing real estate transaction together. Several years after that, person B is at a large public gathering (which is videotaped), and someone - nobody quite knows who - says person A was at the same meeting. Persons A and B live in the same part of a large city and are involved with the same university system. Ah ha! Clear evidence that person B shares the radical ideas that person A had 35-40 years ago!

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 10:18 AM

The book Hannity says he has was written by Ayers and published in 1974, six years after RFK's assassination. I've noticed that when Hannity does something like this, it usually takes a day or two for the rest of the media to comment on it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 10:43 AM

All the LA Times needs to do to prove that the heretics are wrong is to show the tape. Or maybe there is no tape and this is baiting.

However according to the LA Times:

Allies of Palestinians see a friend in Barack Obama

CHICAGO -- It was a celebration of Palestinian culture -- a night of music, dancing and a dash of politics. Local Arab Americans were bidding farewell to Rashid Khalidi, an internationally known scholar, critic of Israel and advocate for Palestinian rights, who was leaving town for a job in New York.

A special tribute came from Khalidi's friend and frequent dinner companion, the young state Sen. Barack Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:34 PM

You wanna go on and clarify the exact nature of that 'tribute'?

never mind, I'll copy what was said in the article.


Speaking to the crowd, Obama reminisced about meals prepared by Khalidi's wife, Mona, and conversations that had challenged his thinking.
His many talks with the Khalidis, Obama said, had been "consistent reminders to me of my own blind spots and my own biases. . . . It's for that reason that I'm hoping that, for many years to come, we continue that conversation -- a conversation that is necessary not just around Mona and Rashid's dinner table," but around "this entire world."

Now that, to me, if it is accurate, sounds like a comment from a man who thinks, and who is able to learn from any person he meets.
It said talking with Khalidi had "challenged his thinking", not that he AGREED with the man's positions!

I have met many folks, both in my years in college and in later life, whose thoughts and ideas 'challenged' my thinking. Some of them I came to seriously disagree with!
If I want to know what a person thinks about an issue currently, I will ask them! I will NOT assume that I can ascertain their position based on some offhand comment they may have made many years ago, OR based on information they they may have had conversations with someone.
Is that too complex for you to follow?
Obama has spent months explaining what he believes in, what he intends to do, and how he views various issues. So has John McCain....and McCain changes those seemingly every few days, while Obama's have held pretty steady....so, I find the choice easy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:37 PM

You--for example--are someone, Sawz, who has challenged my thinking, over and over.

So far, however, I have not agreed with you in major ways.

Would you like to assert that, because of this, I am contaminated? Infected with (shudder) Republican thoughts?

What a crock.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 09:55 PM

On the subject of Ayers' dedication of the book to Sirhan Sirhan, I'm guessing that Ayers is one of the people who believe that Sirhan Sirhan was set up, and that he wasn't the person who killed Bobby Kennedy. There's a lot of people who see it that way. Here's one example...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/FBI/Who_Killed_R_Kennedy.html

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 10:37 PM

...the book is dedicated to Sirhan Sirhan, implies rather more than is actually the case.

The book is dedicated to "Harriet Tubman and John Brown, To All Who continue to fight" and also "To all the political prisoners in America", accompanied by a list several hundred names in tiny print. And Sirhan Sirhan is included as one of them.

As Carol said there, it seems likely that whoever put that list together may well have believed Sirhan Sirhan wasn't responsible for Bobby Kennedy's murder. Who knows? 1968 was a very strange time, and so was 1974 when that book was printed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 10:48 PM

That's really the only possible explanation for it. Bobby Kennedy had come out against the Vietnam War. A big part of the Weather Underground's activities were an effort to get the Vietnam War ended. There's just no way they would have been happy that Bobby Kennedy was killed or that they would be supportive of his killer(s).

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:09 PM

As I understand it, the entire dialogue had something to do with the concept of Sirhan Sirhan being a political prisoner.

             It would be interesting to know how many people in America's prisons today condiser themselves to be "political prisoners." I suspect the number would amaze the ordinary citizen.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:19 PM

Well, he is a political prisoner if he was set up for a murder he didn't commit, if the person who was murdered was killed for political reasons. And the people who believe Sirhan was set up do believe that Kennedy was killed for political reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:41 AM

Personally, I'm not sure what defines a "political prisoner." But I'm quite sure Sirhan murdered Bobby Kennedy for political reasons. I just wonder if he considers himself to be a political prisoner. Or he could be completely deranged and not aware of what's going on.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Skivee
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:52 AM

You could only think that Sirhan Sirhan was "set up" and didn't do it by ignoring voluminous clear-cut evidence available immediately after the crime; the testimony of Rosey Greer ( famed football player and Kennedy bodyguard, who apprehended SS an instant after the gunfire stopped) as well as the many statements from Sirhan Sirhan himself trumpeting his great "triumph".
Generally a nut with a gun is a nut with a gun. Occum's razor cuts bull pretty well.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:00 AM

Nevertheless, there are many people who do believe that. And Sirhan Sirhan himself says he doesn't remember actually shooting Kennedy, so I don't think he would say that he did it for political reasons. Considering the fact that Bobby Kennedy was against the war in Vietnam, and the Weather Underground were trying to get that war ended, the likelihood that they would have any sympathy whatever with Sirhan Sirhan if they thought he was responsible for Kennedy's death seems exceedingly slim.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:30 AM

What's this??? Obama conspired with Sirhan Sirhan to kill Bobby Kennedy???

Well, geeze, he certainly was a very busy boy at age 7...

(But, Bobertz... Hold on to yer hat... Obama organized the WeatherUnderground when he was eight!!)

Unbelievable!!! Truely unbelievable!!!

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:24 AM

"Considering the fact that Bobby Kennedy was against the war in Vietnam, and the Weather Underground were trying to get that war ended, the likelihood that they would have any sympathy whatever with Sirhan Sirhan if they thought he was responsible for Kennedy's death seems exceedingly slim."


                        Carol - I would agree that makes perfectly good sense. So the mystery that still seems to need to be unravled is, why would William Ayers name Sirhan Sirhan in the dedication of his book?

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:33 AM

My guess is that Ayers (or whichever of the authors decided to put that name in the dedication) blamed the US government for Bobby Kennedy's assassination. I'm guessing that the authors of the book believed that Kennedy was killed by the US government because of his stance in opposition to the Vietnam war, and because they thought he would try to end the war if he was elected president. So if they believed that, and if they (like a lot of other people) believed that Sirhan Sirhan was framed for killing Kennedy, or as some people believe, that he was hypnotized into doing it, then they would consider Sirhan to be a victim of the US government and its war machine, and that this is why they included him in the dedication of that book.

I think people will find that most organizations like the Weather Underground do believe that the US government is responsible for the deaths of JFK, MLK, Malcolm X, and Bobby Kennedy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:35 AM

It's a good idea to actually read threads you disagree with, Rig. See Carol's post at 31 Oct 08 - 09:55 PM for a very plausible reason.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM

McGrath - There's a difference between reading things, and reading things into things. I'm not disagreeing with Carol, I'm trying to make sense of Ayres.

                         If Ayres likes blowing things up, and thinks the government framed Sirhan Sirhan, then it seems to me that more people would be concerned when they see Obama palling around with him.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:18 PM

I would be...if he were...but he isn't and never has.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:45 PM

Well, we know for a fact that McCain thinks blowing things up is a good solution (bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran).

But we also know that Ayers no longer favors blowing things up as a means of solving problems, and he didn't favor it back when Obama had some sporadic contact with him either. He did stop doing it, after all, and I think many people probably don't know that Ayers turned himself in. He was not captured. He was living underground, and just he decided that it was time to turn himself in. That means that he was prepared to serve time for his crimes, which means that he wasn't entirely unrepentant.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 02:02 PM

"I would be...if he were...but he isn't and never has."


                Well, they continue to manage to keep showing up at the same events together.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 02:11 PM

Well, perhaps the same words mean different things to different people. To me, "pal around" means going out for a beer or a ballgame together, and is very different from being at the same public events or being invited by a third party to serve on the same organization's governing body. But, you should certainly feel free to believe whatever you'd like.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 02:19 PM

Well, I haven't read Bill Ayers book but I agree with CarolC that many 60s radicals, myself included, believe that the government, using the CIA as their hit squad, assassinated Malcolm X. JFK, RFK and MLK...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 02:22 PM

I wonder is people who suspect that think Obama is safe today?

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 02:44 PM

Most people don't know that Bobby Kennedy also believed that the US government was involved in JFK's assassination.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM

A lot of nasty things happened back in the 60s, as a result of a cruel war against people who had never done anything to hurt the USA.

It's right to recognise that people who fought in that war did so for reasons that seemed good to them at the time, and to move on. The same should apply to people who fought against that war, when they did things they should not have.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:09 PM

Good point, McG...

This is the very reason why if one Vietnam Vet was spit on, that became "The Story" of the right wing... Persoanlly, I don't know any anyone who would have spit at a Vietnam Vet... But, in order to maintain control, the war mongers tried to pit anri-war folks against the vets... It worked to some degree but in doing so hurt the country even more over the long run...

I mean, yeah, it was a very messed up war... Just like the one in Iraq... But the folks fighting it and the folks fighting to end it should learn something from Vietnam and that it we ain't adversaries here... Yes, the McCain folks want us to be but they are just playing that same game as Johnson and Nixon and their people played
on my generation 40 years ago... Same exact game...

I got an email yesterday that is making the rounds of this serviceman, hardly 20 years old, blasting Obama and all of his supporters as traitors and unAmerican and cowardly... Yeah, they are trying to rerun the exact same game on the generation that is stuck with Iraq... What a shame... And it's too bad this kid isn't old enough to understand that this game has been played before and it wasn't at all productive then and in playing it again all that is going to happen is that these folks who buy into it will become very pissed off adults who will suffer disporportionately from alcolism, drug abuse depression and other mental illnesses... I firmly believe that... I've seen way too many of my old friends go that way... And for what??? So that the George Bushs and John McCains can feel all smug, even elitist, about having blood on their hands???

I, for one, won't buy into that traitor garbage... And while I'm at it I'd like to go on record that I am not ashamed for any of the anti-war stuff I've been involved with over the years... Quite the opposite... I wished that those wars weren't started and fought and people died but if I had it to do over, I'd do what I did... I'm sure that Bill Ayers would, too...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:06 PM

A Letter to the Editor from the Prosecutor in the Bill Ayers. et al, trial:

"Re "Politics of Attack" (editorial, Oct. 8) and "Obama and '60s Bomber: A Look Into Crossed Paths" (front page, Oct. 4):

"As the lead federal prosecutor of the Weathermen in the 1970s (I was then chief of the criminal division in the Eastern District of Michigan and took over the Weathermen prosecution in 1972), I am amazed and outraged that Senator Barack Obama is being linked to William Ayers's terrorist activities 40 years ago when Mr. Obama was, as he has noted, just a child.

"Although I dearly wanted to obtain convictions against all the Weathermen, including Bill Ayers, I am very pleased to learn that he has become a responsible citizen.

"Because Senator Obama recently served on a board of a charitable organization with Mr. Ayers cannot possibly link the senator to acts perpetrated by Mr. Ayers so many years ago.

"I do take issue with the statement in your news article that the Weathermen indictment was dismissed because of "prosecutorial misconduct." It was dismissed because of illegal activities, including wiretaps, break-ins and mail interceptions, initiated by John N. Mitchell, attorney general at that time, and W. Mark Felt, an F.B.I. assistant director. ("Deep Throat" Mark Felt! Ebbie)

William C. Ibershof

Mill Valley, Calif., Oct. 8, 2008"

http://nytimes.com/2008/10/10/opinion/l10ayers.html

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:25 PM

So it comes down to Bill Ayers mythology and Joe the Plumber???

Fact is stranger than fiction...

BTW, just for the record... The WeatherUnderground folks weren't the only folks on the front lines of the anti-war movement... There were hundreds of thousands of folks fightin' in various cities and towns, using various tactics and it is not surprising that anyone who knows a number of Baby Boomers probably also knows someone who was on those front lines...

I'm sure that John McCain has associated with plenty of people who fought against the Vietnam War... Okay, like Obama, he might not know it but face it, we are everywhere... And other than a few old hippies, like myself with my long gray ponytail, they look just like grandpa and grandma... And they are out there workin' in car dealerships, and insurance companies and fixin' washing machines and, and, and...

So for the McCain folks thinkin' that Obama's association with a former radical is damning is, in itself, very niave... Or very hypocritical... Either are reason not to take McCain or his charges seriously...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:03 PM

And they are out there workin' in car dealerships, and insurance companies and fixin' washing machines...

Probably quite a few plumbers too.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:50 PM

No, the plumbers worked for Nixon.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:01 PM

"So it comes down to Bill Ayers mythology and Joe the Plumber???"

When you ask Joe a question he answers. When Ayers is asked questions, he clams up (nothing to hide there) runs inside and calls the police (which is group bombed) and complained.

This makes Ayers and arrogant asshole. It is naive to think that someone who associated with unapologetic terrorists is fit to be president.

Ayers in his own words: "Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at"

Is that good for you Amos, CC and Bobert? Is it OK for the Potus to associate with people like this?

Just a simple yes or no will be sufficient.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:29 PM

I'm not apologizing for anything Ayers said or did in the 1960s. What he did was wrong.

How about McCain's good buddy, G Gordon Liddy, about whom McCain said this, "Well, you know, I'm proud of you. I'm proud of your family. I'm proud to know your son, Tom, who's a great and wonderful guy. And it's always a pleasure for me to come on your program, Gordon. And congratulations on your continued success and adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great"

This from Liddy...

"Well, if the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms comes to disarm you and they are bearing arms, resist them with arms. Go for a head shot; they're going to be wearing bulletproof vests."

During the same period that Bill Ayers was a member of the Weather Underground, Gordon Liddy was making plans to firebomb a Washington think tank, assassinate a prominent journalist, undertake the Watergate burglary, break into the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist, and kidnap anti-war protesters at the 1972 Republican convention. *

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:31 PM

Oh, yeah... is it OK for the Potus to associate with people like Liddy? A simple yes or no will be sufficient.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:32 PM

Oh really, Sawz???

Where exactly did you come up with that hypothessis??? A Cracker Jacks box??? A forune cookie from the local Chinese resturant???

I mean, here you have two very different people... One, Bill Ayers, is highly intellegent, educated with a lot of history... The other??? Who the heck knows??? All we know is that he says he is a plumber, which has not been proven... He says he is interested in buying a plumbing business yet he is arrears in paying his taxes so we can assume that he ain't no mover and shaker in the plumbing business... But he can parrot bumper sticker length treatises on the economy and world problems???

Now I know somethin' about the Joe the Plumbers of the world... Yes, 20 years working in drug treatement and then as a social worker in "adult" services brought me into contact with many Joe the Plumbers... First of all, this guy paranoid... Most of my client over the years were also paranoid... Yeah, the governemnt was always out to get them... Second, Joe ain't to bright... Even after Obama expalined his tax policies to Joe he didn't get them... And thirdly, Joe is a scammer... Most of the folks I worked with also learned that there are opportunities where they could scam the system and Joe is trying to become the next American Idol, says he's lookin' for an agent and is seein' this situation as an opportunity to scam the system... Waht is Joe the Pluber actually proposing to porduce to mankind, Sawz??? Well, don't hurt yer head 'cause Joe the Plumber isn't actually proposing to produce anything???

What???

That's right... Joe the Plumber is just another crook trying to scam the system...

So here we have a paranoid angry person, with tax problems, no apparent job, no apparent means of buying a successfull business thinking that he has hit the lottery... This is the way that scammers think... Petty con men... The guy who knocks on your door and says he ahs some extra black top on his truck...

Jow is like the perennial side show hawker at any carnival... A loser...

And then there is Bill Ayers... A radical from the 60's... Educated... Worldly... Involved... Heck, a professor...

Not a scammer... Not a mental midget... An educated guy who has been around and is now involved in his community trying to give back thru various organizations that are inteneded to make educational programs more relevant... That who Bill Ayers is, Sawz, as if you care... Which you don't...

No, sawz, you'd rather attach you wagon to a flunkie loser who is out to scam you than to an educated, enlightened guy who gives his time to the community to make it better???

I tell ya what, Sawz/Old Guy/Dickey... It's said that a man can be judged by the company he keeps??? Well, I think you have spoken volumes about just how narrow minded you are by your last post...

Bobert (4 years: Inpatient Drug Counselot, 16 years: Social Worker)

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:10 PM

Which was the bigger crime? The war in Vietnam, or the misguided activities of the Weathermen in an attempt to stop it?   

Which caused the greater number of American deaths?

People on both sides at that time thought that what they were doing was the right thing. Maybe they still think what they did was right, maybe they regret some of the things. "Judge not lest you be judged."

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:39 PM

At the end of the day, history will probably conclude that Lyndon Johnson was the worst criminal of the era.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:42 PM

I hope it does.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:11 AM

Bobert (4 years: Inpatient Drug Counselot, 16 years: Social Worker) DOPE SMOKER FOR ???

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:29 AM

No. Now it is CCs turn.

I see Amos and Bobert are doing their usual I'm too chicken shit to answer a direct question routine.

I don't associate with dope smokers because I don't want to be known as someone who associates with dope smokers. I guess it wouldn't bother Obama or Ayers.

Ayers: "They were artists and anarchists and drug, dope smokers and a really good group of people."

You would fit right in that group Bobert. How bout you Amos and CC? Would you like to associate with anarchists and drug, dope smokers?

I guess Obama would be a good guy to pass a joint around with. Maybe Ayers and his wife could join in.

Joe is a crook but dope smokers and anarchists are OK.

I say dope smokers and anarchists are crooks and plumbers that have the audacity to disagree with Obama's socialist policies are OK.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:35 AM

"make educational programs more relevant... That who Bill Ayers is, Sawz, as if you care... Which you don't..."

What was the end result of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge by Obama and Ayers?

Don't see no hands up so here goes:

"the Challenge had little impact on school improvement and student outcomes, with no statistically significant differences between Annenberg and non-Annenberg schools in rates of achievement gain, classroom behavior, student self-efficacy, and social competence"

Sounds like Obama and Ayers are the losers, not Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:33 AM

Eyewitness to the Ayers Revolution
October 28, 2008 - by Bob Owens
When Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn led the domestic terrorist group Weather Underground in 1969, a chance meeting led Army veteran Larry Grathwohl into joining the group. Grathwohl served as a courier, running messages between the group's leadership (called the "Weather Bureau") and individual cells that were to carry out attacks.
Grathwohl was also an informant for the FBI.

In an interview from the 1982 documentary No Place To Hide that recently surfaced, Grathwohl discussed what the Weathermen intended to do after overthrowing the U.S. government, including what they would do with those Americans who [1] refused to embrace communism.

    I asked, 'Well what is going to happen to those people we can't reeducate, that are diehard capitalists?' And the reply was that they'd have to be eliminated.
    And when I pursued this further, they estimated they would have to eliminate 25 million people in these reeducation centers.
    And when I say 'eliminate,' I mean 'kill.'
    Twenty-five million people.
    I want you to imagine sitting in a room with 25 people, most of which have graduate degrees, from Columbia and other well-known educational centers, and hear them figuring out the logistics for the elimination of 25 million people.
    And they were dead serious.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:02 AM

Everybody associates with dope smokers. It's not possible for anyone to get through a day without associating with dope smokers, unless they stay home and keep to themselves. I don't seek them out, myself, but I know how many are out there, and I guarantee that the person who is saying they don't associate with dope smokers... that person definitely associates with dope smokers. Lots of them. In their own family, even.

But I see my questioner has changed the subject rather than answer my question. So I'll ask it again...


How about McCain's good buddy, G Gordon Liddy, about whom McCain said this, "Well, you know, I'm proud of you. I'm proud of your family. I'm proud to know your son, Tom, who's a great and wonderful guy. And it's always a pleasure for me to come on your program, Gordon. And congratulations on your continued success and adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great"

This from Liddy...

"Well, if the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms comes to disarm you and they are bearing arms, resist them with arms. Go for a head shot; they're going to be wearing bulletproof vests."

During the same period that Bill Ayers was a member of the Weather Underground, Gordon Liddy was making plans to firebomb a Washington think tank, assassinate a prominent journalist, undertake the Watergate burglary, break into the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist, and kidnap anti-war protesters at the 1972 Republican convention.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:04 AM

Forgot the question again...

Is it OK for the Potus to associate with people like Liddy? A simple yes or no will be sufficient.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:01 AM

Who's the Potus?

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:13 AM

President Of The United States

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:23 AM

Gee Gordon Liddy is typical of those cop-minded stiffs who mostly all think just like him. The difference is, he got caught doing something that most of them do routinely, but do not get caught.

             If Obama gets elected, he will be surrounded by people like that from daylight to dark. We call them Secret Service, CIA, FBI, and outside-operatives.

             I've often thought the whole Watergate thing was pretty typical of what goes on in Washington on a day to day basis. The difference is, Nixon got caught. He got caught because that Deep Throat character was motivated by something other than what normally motivates the typical cop-minded stiff.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:08 AM

Makes it kind of silly to be pointing fingers at others about associating with shady characters, then. If they all do it, Obama won't be any worse in that regard than McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:44 AM

What Carol said about dope smokers, Sawz... Unless you live in a bubble you can't help but interact with them... But let's get real here... Dope smokers don't wear buttons sayin' "Dope Smoker" so you wouldn't even know who is and who ain't...

Heck, I threw a New Years party about 15 years ago and invited lots of people, including the minister of a mainstream church... I had a pipe and a little stash out in my studio and folks wandered an and out during the course of the evening... Then the minister came out, sat down on the couch in the studio and had hima couple puffs... And, like I said, this was a mainstream church...

But nevermind smoking pot because it is a red herring...

History is on the side of the folks who opposed the Vietnam War and history is also on the side of those who now oppose the Iraq War... Neither of these wars and any sane level of justification... Both are demonstartion of arrogant colonialism and both are failures...

There won't be a "victory" in Iraq... Even General Petraous has said as much...

Now back to Bill Ayers...

Where's the beef???

(There ain't any, Bobertz... This is just conjecture, smoke and mirrors on McCain and his shills part...)

Well, why would they make this up???

(What "this"... There ain't no "this"... They don't want to talk policy so they are just making up anything that they think might change the outcome of the election...)

You mean, they are lieing???

(That's a good word for it...)

Oh???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:49 AM

I don't associate with dope smokers because I don't want to be known as someone who associates with dope smokers.

I'm afraid you do, Sawzaw. You're continuing to do so as long as you frequent the Mudcat. But then, as has been pointed out, the same would be likely to be true in virtually any setting, including going to church.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:58 AM

Personally, I would think accociating with church goers would place one lower down on the social perspective than associating with pot smokers, but that's just my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:20 AM

How about a pot smokin' church goer, Rigs???

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:20 PM

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:04 AM

Forgot the question again...

Is it OK for the Potus to associate with people like Liddy? A simple yes or no will be sufficient.


Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Sawzaw - PM
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:29 AM

No. Now it is CCs turn.

Did you forget to read my answer?

It is your turn and a simple yes or no will suffice.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:22 PM

"How about a pot smokin' church goer, Rigs???"

               I'll have to think about those!




   "Is it OK for the Potus to associate with people like Liddy?"


                                 Yes!

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:04 PM

I want to know how many people were killed by Liddy's group. And did Liddy go underground for 10 years while snatching purses to get by.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:11 PM

"Everybody associates with dope smokers. It's not possible for anyone to get through a day without associating with dope smokers"

And whores and serial killers and drug dealers. The difference is I have the judgement to a distance when I know it.

Not so with Obama. He has piss poor judgment. At least he admitted it once about Rezko. That's a start.

Good for you Rig. A straight answer around here is rare.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:07 PM

One death has been attributed to the Weathermen, a police officer Brian McDonnell, killed by a pipe bomb which may have been panted by them. (And three of their own killed when a bomb being constructed went off prematurely.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:12 PM

Actually I think he has shown remarkably good judgement so far, since he declared his candidacy. For one thing he refused to be distracted by arm-waving crap-spouters.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:20 PM

How many deaths attributed to Liddy's group??? Well, he was part of administration that oversaw the deaths of over 30,000 Americans in Vietnam and tens of thousands of Vietnamese...

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:49 PM

"tens of thousands of Vietnamese... In fact estimates for deaths of Vietnamese range between one and two million.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:16 PM

Ah, I see I missed the "no" answer that was given to my question. Ok. So if it's not ok for John McCain to be hobnobbing with terrorists, I wonder why the person who is working so hard to smear Obama isn't also criticizing McCain for his connections with terrorists.

Do I think it's ok for the POTUS to associate with Bill Ayers? To the extent that Obama has, I would say, yes. It's ok. As long as someone like that has been accepted by society, including many Republicans, and is considered to be (at the time of the association) a fine upstanding member of the community, as Ayers has, I would say it's perfectly ok for the POTUS to be associating with him.

Now on the subject of whether or not I would like to associate with anarchists, I have to say that the only self-described anarchist I personally know is a libertarian who is also a Vietnam Vet, and who believes that even John McCain is a socialist.

I already answered the question about pot smokers.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:20 PM

On the question of how many deaths have been cause by people John McCain is either close to or has given money to, I'd say the number is quite high...


In February 1988, the Washington Post reported that McCain personally (and relatively "recently") gave the Contras $400.

No one can doubt that acts of terror were committed by the Contras. Human Rights Watch concluded in 1989 that "the Contras were major and systematic violators of the most basic standards of the laws of armed conflict, including by launching indiscriminate attacks on civilians, selectively murdering non-combatants, and mistreating prisoners." Human Rights Watch also criticized acts of terror by the Sandinista government, but called the Contras "a force that has shown itself incapable of operating without consistently committing gross abuses in violation of the laws of war."

Here are some eyewitness reports of the terrorism committed by the Contras:

They took out their knives and stuck them under his fingernails. After they took his fingernails off, then they broke his elbows. Afterwards they gouged out his eyes. Then they took their bayonets and made all sorts of slices in his skin all around his chest, arms, and legs. They then took his hair off and the skin of his scalp. When they saw there was nothing left to do with him, they threw gasoline on him and burned him. The next day they started the same thing with a 13 year old girl. They did more or less the same, but they did other things to her too. First, she was utilized, raped by all the officers. They stripped her and threw her in a small room, they went in one by one. Afterwards they took her out tied and blindfolded. Then they began the same mutilating, pulling her fingernails out and cutting off her fingers, breaking her arms, gouging out her eyes and all they did to the other fellow. They cut her legs and stuck an iron rod into her womb.

Rosa had her breasts cut off. Then they cut into her chest and took out her heart. The men had their arms broken and their testicles cut off and their eyes poked out. They were then killed by slitting their throats and pulling the tongue out through the slit.


A congressional committee confirmed at the time that the Contras "raped, tortured and killed unarmed civilians, including children" and that "groups of civilians, including pregnant women and children were burned, dismembered, blinded and beheaded."

Harold Pinter recalled the testimony of Father John Metcalf:

I am in charge of a parish in the north of Nicaragua. My parishioners built a school, a health centre, a cultural centre. We have lived in peace. A few months ago a Contra force attacked the parish. They destroyed everything: the school, the health centre, the cultural centre. They raped nurses and teachers, slaughtered doctors, in the most brutal manner. They behaved like savages. Please demand that the US government withdraw its support from this shocking terrorist activity.


And no one can doubt that McCain knew about these acts of terror when he was publicly funding them. On February 10, 1987, the New York Times noted that a 170-page report by Americas Watch determined about the Contras, "They still engage in selective but systematic killing of persons they perceive as representing the Government, in indiscriminate attacks against civilians or in disregard for their safety, and in outrages against the personal dignity of prisoners. The Contras also engage in widespread kidnapping of civilians, apparently for purposes of recruitment as well as intimidation." The report noted, "The escalating brutality of Contra practices leads Americas Watch to conclude that disregard for the rights of civilians has become a de facto policy of the Contra forces."

McCain also must have known that the Contras were engaged in drug smuggling while he was handing them money. On August 5, 1987, the CIA Central American Task Force chief testified before the Iran-Contra Committee about the Contra drug trafficking: "It is not a couple of people. It is a lot of people."(pdf, p. 38)

In addition to his personal support for the Contras, McCain has a supporter who is far more of a terrorist supporter than Bill Ayers. His name is Oliver North. Ayers was never convicted for any crime, and there's no evidence he ever killed anyone. North, by Contrast, was convicted (he got away with it because his testimony to Congress provided him with immunity).

There can be no doubt about North's connection to terrorism. Under the direction of North, the US covertly sold $48 million in battlefield missiles and other weapons to Iran, even though Iran was classified by the US government as a sponsor of international terrorism. North then illegally used some of this money to help finance the Contras.

So what is the McCain campaign's position toward this terrorist supporter? Have they denounced his views? No, McCain's own campaign website promotes the endorsement of him by North. McCain also supported North's 1994 campaign for the US Senate in Virginia.

The Washington Post blog did ask the McCain campaign, "Is McCain pleased to receive North's endorsement, given the fact that the failed GOP senatorial candidate was convicted in 1989 of shredding documents, accepting an illegal gratuity and aiding and abetting in the obstruction of Congress?" The McCain campaign declined to criticize North or remove their link to his endorsement: "We'll let the comments in the release stand," wrote spokeswoman Jill Hazelbaker in an e-mail.

Obviously, McCain has no regrets about supporting the Contras. McCain named Otto Reich as his adviser on Latin American issues, even though Reich was involved in the Iran-Contra scandal. In the mid-1980s, Reich ran the U.S. Office of Public Diplomacy and illegally coordinated with the CIA to run a "White Propaganda" campaign planting bogus op-eds written by his speechwriters in newspapers. In 1987, the Republican Comptroller-General formally found that Reich had broken the law. As ambassador to Venezuela, Reich arranged the release and asylum of Cuban-American terrorist Orlando Bosch, who had planted a bomb on a Cuban airliner in 1976, killing all 73 people on board.

Subject: RE: BS: The Missing LA Times Video Tape
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:10 PM

"How about a pot smokin' church goer, Rigs???"


               After having thought it over, I've decided that they must smoke pot in order to recover from having gone to church!