BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2

Subject: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 06:53 PM

The old thread had reached 100 posts. Please continue discussions in this thread.

Part One

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Haruo
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 07:06 PM

Mrzzy said the problem is terrorists perceive us as Christians. I think it would be closer to the truth to say that those terrorists who see themselves as engaging in jihad against us and for the cause of Allah (God) see us as not so much Christians, as Satanists. Remember the Ayatollah Khomeini's characterization of the United States as "the Great Satan". Now, it's true that "Satan" doesn't mean the same sort of thing for most Muslims that it does for many Christians... but still...

Liland

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Jim Krause
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 07:17 PM

I have heard devout Muslims disavow any link between the various terrorists and Islam. Quite frankly, I found that somewhat comforting.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 07:38 PM

Well, one could change "under God" to "under Bush", and revise it as new elections demand.

Reminds me of the 50s campaign to change "Boulder Dam" back to "Hoover Dam" (where it had started out until the early thirties.) Obvious solution was to change the only ex-living (at that time) President's name to Herbert Boulder.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 07:54 PM

LOL, Dick, I like it!

This certainly has given tham all something to huff and puff about; what a bunch of twits! Just saw a lot of indignant posturing on the news. Scary how sure they all are that we are all Christians. Psychos have called the dad who brought the suit and threatened to kill him and his daughter; he's had to put her in hiding. Oh, yeah, land of the free and the brave. What a bunch of sick assholes. And, now they've even intimidated the judge into putting his own decision on hold!

They've won what could be a very disturbing victory, though, in winning school vouchers for religious school, today, via the Supreme Court. Doesn't look as though the Shrub has to find any new judges. Today, I feel even more alienated from my country than ever...being a non-Christian. The religious far right set out an agenda almost 30 years ago and they are reaching the pinnacle of their plan, having reached into the highest office of the land. Sad day for America.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: CapriUni
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 08:57 PM

"One Nation, under Bush"? 'Cuse me, but when I read that, I couldn't help thinking of that children's classic song:

On top of spaghetti, all covered with cheese,
I lost my poor meatball when somebody sneezed.
It rolled off the table, and under a bush,
And then my poor meatball was nothing but mush!

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 09:23 PM

My, my, it's really rolling isn't it?

Axman664 - You asked me "Little Hawk, can a country be "one nation…indivisible," and still be comprised of vastly different parts and ideas ("diversity")? How would this differ from our nation?

Yes, you are quite correct. A nation can be one nation and still be comprised of vastly different parts and ideas. Such is often, if not usually, the case with sovereign nations. It is certainly true of the USA and Canada both.

My main point was that to stand up and pledge that your country is "indivisible" is the sort of bravado that people engage in precisely because they are afraid it may be divided, and they are afraid because they know perfectly well that it is, in fact...divisible.

To teach children to say it's "indivisible" is intended to plant an idea in their minds that may later prove useful when you send them out as young adults to kill and die on some battlefield. That is the intention of the phrase. I am suspicious of such intentions...but from the point of military preparedness I can understand why countries do this sort of thing...specially if they expect to be fighting wars at fairly frequent intervals.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 09:27 PM

Naemanson - You said, satirically: "I am offended and I want that offense to go away! I am offended so YOU have to change your ways. It matters not if the resolution to my problem offends you."

YES!!! HA! HA! HA! HA! THAT IS EXACTLY MY OBJECTION TO THIS WHOLE SILLY BUSINESS...and you expressed it in a mere 32 words! Bravo! My hat's off to you!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 09:44 PM

I would venture to guess that the word "indivisable" was put in when it was originally written, about 25 years after the American Civil War, when we had lost hundreds of thousands of people, on both sides, keeping it so.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 09:46 PM

As I'm fond of saying: People will die for an idea providing that idea isn't quite clear to them.

The thread about "The Flag" got me to look up this poem by Edgar Lee Masters----from his Spoon River Anthology :

HARRY WILMANS

I was just turned twenty-one,
And Henry Phipps, the Sunday-school superintendant,
Made a speech in Bindle's Opera House.
"The honor of the flag must be upheld," he said,
"Whether it be assailed by a barbarous trib eof Tagalogs
Or the greatest power in Europe."
And we cheered and cheered the speech and the flag he waved
As he spoke.
And I went to the war in spite of my father,
And followed the flag until I saw it raised
By our camp in a rice field near Manila.
And all of us cheered and cheered it.
But there were flies and poisonous things;
And there was the deadly water,
And the cruel heat,
And the sickening, putrid food;
And the smaell of the trench just back of the tents
Where the soldiers went to empty themselves;
And there were the whores who followed us full of syphyllis;
And beastly acts,
With bullying, hatred, degradation among us,
And days of loathing and nights of fear
To the hour of the charge through the steaming swamp,
Following the flag,
Till I fell shot through the guts with a scream.
Now there's a flag over me in Spoon River !
A flag ! A flag !----------------------------------------------------------

Mudcatters,
I only mentioned the Jehovah's Wtnesses in the first/other thread on this because I know they will not pledge to the flag. This has been a topic for discussion many times in my family. I agree with their stand on this although I do think they abstain for all the wrong reasons. And then I part company with all of their other dogmas.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 09:50 PM

Has anyone given any thought to absolute Godlessness of Bush's administration. No matter where you look, it stinks of money and payoffs. And here he is out there claiming to be a Christain? Hah! If the US was "under God" it would be a Hell (jus funnin') of a lot better off. Problem is that God is money in the minds of the hethens who have seized our country in the name of God. And worse than that, there are a lot of so called Christains who belive the company line... Jesus, wheather prophet or Son of God or neither, would puke at the sight of the antihuman policies of George Bush, Jr.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 09:50 PM

By the way, the REAL god that reigns in America is MONEY. Money and business. Advertising. Marketing. Gross national product and military supremacy. The pursuit of money for the sake of money and for the sake of wordly power IS the dominant national religion of America!!!

That's the truth, people. Deal with it. It is that for which many Muslims hate you...not your democracy or your Christian traditions. Muslims revere Christ as a true prophet of God! Ask them. They do. The Old and New Testaments are among their holiest books, and are second in influence only to the Koran, which came at the founding of their religion by Mohammed's teachings.

Fussing about traditional religions and the use of the word "God" in this or that document at this point in history is like fussing about your malfunctioning barbecue while a forest fire engulfs your property from all sides.

In fact, I think that may be one reason why these things get blown up so big...they distract people from issues that really matter and keep them busy fighting with each other uselessly instead of looking at the big picture. It's pitiable.

Why not change the slogan on your money to "Money doesn't talk, it swears" (thanks to Bob Dylan for that)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 09:53 PM

Yes, the Witnesses have won many court cases saying that they are perfectly within their rights not to pledge to the flag or not to sing tha national anthems of the country or anything else they pretty much choose to not do/ignore---usually because they think it is somehow pagan to do so.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 09:55 PM

Little Hawk: Jinx, free Coke...

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Haruo
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 10:01 PM

From SatireWire.com:

ONE NATION, (SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES AVAILABLE). Pretty well worked out.

BTW did anybody notice this from CNN's Kate Snow yesterday?

"The National Republican Campaign Committee (NRCC), which coordinates Republican congressional campaign efforts, was set to send a memo to every Republican member of Congress and those running for Congress Wednesday afternoon.

"The memo will urge Republicans to contact their local school boards and tell them to "nullify this decision" and urge them to allow the Pledge of Allegiance to be recited as it is in classrooms tomorrow morning, according to a spokesman for the NRCC, Steve Schmidt."

I find the idea that members of Congress should encourage school boards to "nullify" court rulings somewhere between hilarious and unsettling. That it is the Republicans encouraging this odd form of civil disobedience (or misplacement of authority) I find somewhere on the continuum between comforting and scary. The whole thing has me feeling a little queasy in a sort of subliminally schizophrenic way.

Liland

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 10:19 PM

Bobert - LOL! I'm not quite sure what you mean, but you made me laugh...

Oh, wait, I see...sychronicity at work again. Yep. "The love of money is the root of all evil".

Artbrooks - Yep. I figure you're right about that. That's probably just what they had in mind, which is quite understandable in the historical context.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Haruo
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 10:30 PM

Second the general thrust of Little Hawk's last post (not endorsing everything he's said on this) and Bobert's. It is not necessarily unreasonable for people who see things in black and white to see the US as black, not white. And of course our whole cult of nationalism (a worldwide phenomenon) makes it relatively easy to see "Americans" or "Muslims" or whatever where we all need to see human beings.

Jim Krause, most devout Muslims are opposed to terrorism and see it as a travesty of Islamic principles. However, more of them feel the other way than was true twenty, or fifty, years ago. This is the result of the general spread of fundamentalism (a phenomenon affecting all of the world's major religions) coupled with the specific experiences of Islamic peoples in the aftermath of imperial colonialism. For an accessible, informed, concise introduction to the issues involved I recommend Karen Armstrong's Islam: A Short History, in the Modern Library Chronicles series (especially from about p. 141 on, including the section on "Fundamentalism"). Another interesting, thought-provoking article on the subject is This Is a Religious War (written after 9/11, unlike the Armstrong book. Neither of these should be swallowed as if it were directly dictated by an Angel of Allah, but both contain perspectives and information frequently not possessed by "ordinary Americans" (or "ordinary Muslims")...

Liland

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 11:11 PM

This is a pledge chanted by children? Every day???

But it gets worse. According to JTT there was a time in the recent past when it would be recited while standing with hand clasped to heart. Someone else even claims to remember the ritual being accompanied by a fascist-style salute!

If this sort of thing was parroted by kids in North Korea (and no doubt it is) I expect DougR and Banjer would be quick to put a name to it. Brainwashing.

Is it too much to hope that the court ruling and the WorldCom fiasco, between them, spell the beginning of the end for Christian capitalism? As for those comments from Bush.... Well for once I'm speechless.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 11:36 PM

I said in part one this was gonna be BIG..(not sane or logical or orderly...just BIG!..*grin*)

Knee jerk reactions from those we expected it from, and political ass-covering from some I didn't expect it from...

It is fascinating to read reactions from other countries where they can't believe we had such an oath to begin with!

Well, we do, and some of us are embarrassed....(just as some of you from other lands are occasionally embarrassed by strangeness in YOUR socities..)..it will all blow over in awhile, and the sheep will continue reciting that pledge as if it really meant something....and the rest will continue ignoring it..but the issue will have been raised, and more folks will be thinking about it...and that's not such a bad thing...

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: toadfrog
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 11:36 PM

Basically, one point has been missed. And that is, aside from whether issues like the Pledge "divide" us, I don't like the decision because it stirs up a lot of controversy that's not needed. There are a lot of real substantial problems that have to be dealt with, and stirring up the religious crazies does not help. Note that not only Bush, but people like Diane Feinstein and Dick Gebhardt feel compelled to weigh in on the side of "under God."

In other words, if one is a "progressive" or liberal or whatever, and wants substantial progress, on this earth, toward a better world, does it make any practical sense to antagonize one's natural friends who are Black or Hispanic or southern white and also gung ho about God? When the issue is purely symbolic?

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 11:53 PM

Toadfrog...I have in my head a half-remembered quote something to the effect that "it's better to stir up a controversy without deciding it, than to decide it without stirring it up"

the latter seems to be the preferred method among many...but I, and many others, do not agree...these issues MUST be raised & debated, even when it is awkward and when no easy solution is obvious. Ask yourself who YOU would designate to decide which ones were 'too sensitive'...and if some of our 'friends' are antagonized by public debate over this, we might well ask how good friends they are.

Subject: RE: BS: US ...pledge of allegiance ruled out!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 12:00 AM

I figured there would be a lot of Anti-American, Dis-illsioned Old Hippie Types posting here, Folk song sites seem to attract these.

You folks are in the minority, because decent American's know that the Under God is NOT A PRAYER, it is a proclamation that the country believes in a higher power and the RULE OF LAW! This is this God the Republic is referring to. So try not to get so bent out of Shape over nothing. Should we all start praying to Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed by Name than I would agree you have a case.

Godless Countries like Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia were without laws. They felt they had to answer to no one but themselves. Godless Country are horribly becasue they didn't have ANY GOD thus no rules or anything else to answer for!

SOme Godless Countries COME TO MIND STALIN'S RUSSIA, HITLER'S GERMANY! WERE THEY VERY NICE PLACES TO LIVE??

Putin's Russia has now included the phrase (one nation under God in ITS flag) After years of Godlessness. Stalin didn't believe in GOd. Neither Didn't Hitler. Thus those BAD BOYS had nothing and NO ONE to answer to! We in AMERICA DO! This is why we are ONE NATION (ALL OF US) UNDER GOD!! (RULES, LAWS ETHICS AND A HIGHER POWER)

GOD HELP US IF WE SHOULD EVER LOSE THAT CONSCIENCE!

Being good and decent and Simply mentioning the G word can hardly be considered established religion.

YOu people that hate the flag, pledging to it, supporting the government it represents need to leave this oppressive country and live in some other TRUELY TRUELY GODLESS PLACE! May I Suggest RED CHINA! AND BON VOYAGE!!!!!

I WISH YOU LUCK!!!

Dewey

ANYONE GOT THE RED SKELETON SKIT ON THE PLEDGE OF ALLIGIENCE> WOULD LOVE TO SEE IT POSTED HERE!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 12:22 AM

I have followed this thread hoping to see a ray of light, but most of the replies are very predictable, sad to say. The conservatives are outraged and the liberals are very understanding of the "don't force your religion on me" line. This issue is not a whole lot different for me than the flagburning, rights to abortion, gun control, and so on issues. Let me explain.

First off, I will tell you that I am a very patriotic liberal. No need to get into the pedigree, but I have proven my love for my country on enough occasions to not have it questioned. But I am the kind of person, a liberal, who believes that the best testament to my love of my land is to continually question and examine its actions/motives/results to see if we are truly on the journey to a better and more caring democratic republic. I never want things to be like they used to be. I want the future to hold on to the best of what is right in our society, and constantly look for ways to expand to as many people as possible, the "American Dream". Now some of you folks think that that dream is two cars, a white picket fence, 2.5 kids, a Martin, Taylor, Appollonia, Collings, and a Larivee on the wall, etc. To me, that dream is for a place where all folks can walk around and not feel strange because of being different. Where we understand that having a different color of skin, gender, belief systems, etc. is what makes us strong, and where it doesn't exclude folks from living a good life. Where all children are valued and nurtured and not made to feel that being different is bad.

Just like in the other issues that I mentioned in the first para, this whole issue is a red herring. Patriotism isn't saying the pledge of allegiance. It is acting on your allegiance. Patriotism isn't nurtured in the schools. It is a product of parents who take the time to teach their kids the wonder of this place we inhabit and the imperfect beauty of the system we have created. It is a product of acknowledging to these precious pieces of clay our mistakes, such as slavery and racial prejudice, sexism, ageism, unfair labor and environmental laws, and show them how the wonder of advocacy and representative democracy can change this land and this world for the better. It is about listening to the wisdom of our wee ones, as we struggle with solutions. Will we be a better and more perfect union because our children recite the pledge until they are old enough to make their own choices, or will we continue the unending quest for perfection by teaching them our values in our homes.

From a pure constitutional standpoint, it seems to me the court made the right decision. Children who don't come from families that don't buy into the "under God" portion shouldn't have to be made to feel that something is wrong with them. From a political standpoint, I am disgusted by the number of politicians that are jumping on this for purely political reasons. Mind you, many of them are acting out of deeply held beliefs, but far too many are simply using it for a political football. From a common sense standpoint, I want my child to understand what being patriotic really means. It is about having values, and caring enough about this country and all countries to always be trying to make a positive difference. Teach your children well, and ignore the vultures.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: toadfrog
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 01:07 AM

Bill D. Stirring phrases, those! I heard lots of phrases like that back in the sixties. They got us 8 years of Ronald Reagan as President. I'd as soon not see another such 8 years. This old world might not survive it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Haruo
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 01:37 AM

Speaking of Godless Countries, seems to me I recall that in the early fifties Albania had a bright idea. It adopted a law that (a) declared Albania "the first completely atheistic country in the history of the world" and (b) ordered that all towns of 5,000 or more population erect "a statue to the god, J. Stalin". I believe this was actually a year or two after the death of that god (though I think it was before his heirs announced his clay feet). I have read this story several places over the years, but have never actually seen what I would consider respectable documentation (and my Albanian is limited enough I probably never will).

Liland

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Nerd
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 01:56 AM

Dewey,

Hitler's Germany was not a Godless country (in the sense of atheistic). Hitler was a mystical Christian who believed that the rise of the Aryan people was ordained by God. Plenty of brutal muders have been committed in God's name and in Christ's, and an invocation of those names is no guarantee of goodness, as you well know.

I think many would argue that invoking the name God, in the singular, in tax-funded governmant contexts, is establishing religion, at least establishing that monotheism is the norm. Hindus do not see themselves as being under God, and neither do Shinto practitioners, etc. To include language that treats one person's religious belief as the norm, and another's as anomalous, is precisely what the separation of church and state is meant to avoid. Once again: If you want to say "Under God" in private, nobody gives a damn. But using tax dollars to spread the idea that Christianity is one of the relgions that the government agrees with while hinduism is not, that's a problem!

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 02:02 AM

In 8 years he (RONALD REAGAN) also defeated the USSR! THE USSR's Global Terrorist Alliance in the Middle East. Brought Democracy to Eastern Europe! Dismantled the USSR's NUCLEAR ARSENAL.

A fairly peaceful and successful 8 years if you ask me!

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Haruo
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 02:03 AM

Actually, lots of Hindus are monotheists, both the higher-class intellectual types, Vedanta and such, and the lowbrow devotees of Krishna or whoever. And while Shinto is certainly not monotheism, most Shinto practitioners I've known have been extremely dedicated syncretists who have no difficulty being animists and atheistic Buddhists and theistic Buddhists and so on all at once. When I lived in Japan as a kid, most of the neighbor kids' parents were Fuji Bank employees who voted Communist and sent their kids to (Christian) Sunday School. Of course the whole neighborhood (including us Baptists) took part in all the Shinto and Buddhist holidays and festivals. And felt no incongruity let alone blasphemy in doing so.

Liland
who has never got over the experience

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Haruo
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 02:06 AM

Calm down, Dewey, there's no need to shout (indeed, on this sort of topic it might be said there is a need not to shout).

Liland

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 02:24 AM

Right! Hitler was a Mystical Christian who ordered the BURNING OF ALL BIBLES.

I REAL GODLY MAN OF THAT HITLER!! A PURE SAINT!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 02:32 AM

Who said I was shouting I was EMPHASIZING. You Can't shout from one computer to the other: a computer doesn't have ears.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 02:38 AM

He did nothing of the kind, Dewey.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 02:57 AM

There may have not been a physical "ordering" but plenty of Bibles were burned, along with other literature that the state felt threatened by. I will retract the word "ordered" Sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 05:12 AM

Since the topic seems to have widened well beyond the pledge itself, what about "The Star-spangled Banner"?

My son, 22 year-old and having lived in the UK all his life, had a holiday in New York a few weeks ago and went to a Blink 182 concert in New Jersey. He was absolutely astonished by the way all these young followers of a rock band stood up to sing the SSB in a very formal and solumn way before a rock concert. It was probably the most "foreign" thing in his whole time in the US.

The differences between the US and Europe on these public displays of allegiance are much greater than many of us appreciate.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: CapriUni
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 06:07 AM

Dewey -- just a note of information. In Internet forums and chats, etc. Writing in all caps is code for shouting... it's just as annoying on the eyes as shouting is to the ears.

If you want to emphesize certain phrases, and don't want to bother with hmtl code, I suggest putting an asterisk before and after the phrase, *like this*.

Just a thought...

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 06:17 AM

The "Don't force your religion on me" argument is fine, as long as it is coupled with the line "and then I won't force my religion, or lack of it, on others!"
This is called 'tolerance', and can be difficult to learn, and sometimes is contrary to personal beliefs (evangelicals etc.,)

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 06:48 AM

"The main weapon that terrorists use against the West is not bombs or guns, but moral obfuscation."

Netanyahu

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 06:53 AM

Fine thoughts, Mick and Bill. As for the last post, (Nigel's) tolerance is precisely what the separation of church and state is supposed to be about. Everyone is free to decide his or her private beliefs or lack of them, to choose a church/creed etc, without the state peddling any one line. What's wrong with that? And what's wrong with a court endorsing that?

OF course the freedom usually gets no farther than the freedom of parents to indoctrinate their kids with their own beliefs. Even in the developed world, with vastly greater access to information than ever before, children overwhelminglyl adopt the beliefs of their parents. Sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 07:26 AM

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof...." - First Amendment (Bill of Rights), US Constitution

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Peter T.
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 09:33 AM

School vouchers are far more of a danger to the separation of church and state, and the public good in America than any "under God" stuff. Wonder which is getting the biggest press?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 10:07 AM

Being good and decent and Simply mentioning the G word can hardly be considered established religion. Oh, yes, it can - it establishes that monotheism is the only allowed environment. Do we want people from other countries with polytheistic religions to have to abandon their beliefs to become Americans? Doesn't that rankle horribly? Just because it doesn't distinguish *amongst* the monotheists doesn't mean it isn't *establishing* monotheism. Not to mention the pagans and wiccans and atheists, all of whom should have equal rights, per the rest of the pledge.

How many folks heard the NPR thing on the original pledge, which was specifically intended NOT to be US-patriotic, but universally so?

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 10:43 AM

"A nation which does not remember what it was yesterday, does not know what it is today, nor what it is trying to do. We are trying to do a futile thing if we do not know where we came from or what we have been about... The Bible...is the one supreme source of revelation of the meaning of life, the nature of God and spiritual nature and needs of men. It is the only guide of life which really leads the spirit in the way of peace and salvation. America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scripture." - President Woodrow Wilson

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Jim Krause
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 11:21 AM

Kat said "The religious far right set out an agenda almost 30 years ago and they are reaching the pinnacle of their plan, having reached into the highest office of the land. Sad day for America."

This illustrates one very important point to me: The Progressive element in American politics was never able to organize as well as the Reactionary element. The fascists know how to use television, the Left doesn't. The Left concentrates on the Presidency, the Right running for school board, city council, county commission, and state legislature. And ultimately the Right gets their men & women into Congress.

While we were marchin' and singin' and shoutin' the right was organizing. They took a page right out of Joe Hill: "ORGANIZE!"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: GUEST,Amy
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 11:27 AM

Some interesting quotes:

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind." - Thomas Jefferson to Carey, 1816

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." - Benjamin Franklin Works, Vol. VII, p. 75

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses...." [John Adams, "A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788] from Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society, New York: George Braziller, 1965, p. 258]

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 11:32 AM

Excellent point, Jim. I'd heard that, for the first time, from a school board member in Wyoming who had been studying the far right since the early 70's. She had them dead to rights so much so that she was threatened several times. She was outspoken and travelled a lot, sharing what she had documented.

Now that we've all focussed on this, how about the school voucher decision AND the fact that ANY child cna be made to piss in a cup for a drug test without any justified suspicion? "They" say drug use is an epidemic...does anyone have the numbers?

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: CapriUni
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 11:33 AM

But, Jim, organizing progressives is a bit like herding cats. Probably because of their Progressive values of giving even minority voices a chance to be heard -- like cats, we're all too independant to follow one leader.

Of course, herding cats can be done. All it takes is an open can of tuna, preferrably packed in oil. For many human Progressives, I think chocolate would be a good substitute ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 11:44 AM

Dewey, the Nazi "Programme," their constitution, adopted "positive Christianity" as the party's philosophy, but was careful to be non-denominational; Hitler, as a Catholic, could not afford to alienate the powerful Protestant presence in Germany and Austria.

Hitler's speeches and policies and books are filled with references to his self-avowed devout Christianity. Here's an example:

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice....

And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people....

When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited."

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922 [Note, "brood of vipers" appears in Matt. 3:7 & 12:34. John 2:15 depicts Jesus driving out the money changers (adders) from the temple. The word "adders" also appears in Psalms 140:3]

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 11:58 AM

This entire controversy is living proof of why the judiciary is and should be a separate branch of government. It doesn't mean they never get bullied and intimidated by the executive and legislative branches into caving, as I believe they likely will in this instance.

The ACLU has come out strongly in support of this ruling, as they should. I hope it stands. The ruling which has me much more concerned though, is the school vouchers ruling. It is just going to lead to more chaos in the public education system, not better outcomes for individual students.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 12:06 PM

Good quotes, Guest, Amy. Here are a couple of others:

John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."


James Madison: "What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

Anybody want to volunteer to teach the Shrub some US history?

Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of allegiance ruled out! Part 2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 12:12 PM

Dewey - Yelling something that is simply not true over and over again...will not make it true. You are utterly in error about the Nazis being "godless". As others have already posted here, Hitler and the Nazis were a mystical Christian outfit (albeit a very unusual and nasty one). They worked directly with the Christian churches in Germany and elsewhere, and regarded themselves in fact as the true defenders of Christendom throughout the world.

Every German soldier had embossed on his belt buckle the words "Gott Mit Uns" which means: "God is on our side"

Hitler whipped up his troops and his people against "Godless communism" and the Soviets (who were officially atheistic...with PRECISELY the same sort of inflamed rhetoric used in your original post!

I gather you didn't know this. Read a few historical books about World War II, Hitler, and the Nazis and check it out.

The Spanish Inquisition also committed hideous crimes in the name of God, remember that. Just because people commit evil and criminal actions does not necessarily define them as "unchristian" or "godless" (in their own minds), whether or not you find it convenient to do so.

I can assure you, Hitler DID believe in God, and he thought he was serving God and exterminating "God's enemies" (Jews and communists)! He was deluded...in fact, I'd say he was clinically insane.

You are also wrong to say that the Nazis were "without laws". On the contrary, they had a law on the books for bloody well EVERYTHING! And they had the police and courts to enforce those laws, and did so. The Germans, as a people, are rather fond of laws, rules, and procedures...right to this day, and they are very strong on ethics too.

You also ask if Nazi Germany was "a nice place to live in". Well, that depended on who you were at the time...and your degree of sensitivity to what was going on behind the scenes, didn't it? Millions of Germans thought it was a great place to live in until they began seriously losing the war. In other words, if you were one of those benefiting materially from the system, you probably liked it just fine. If you were one of those persecuted by the system, you didn't. That's pretty typical of human nature everywhere.

Do not make the mistake of thinking I am defending the Nazis in any way. I am not. I think they were absolutely wrong...but they were NOT atheistic.

The fact is, Dewey, a people can have laws, ethics, AND the Christian religion...and STILL manage to put together a vicious dictatorship that slaughters innocent people and violates every teaching Jesus ever gave. Depend on that. It's been done over and over again.

- LH