Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 02 Aug 18 - 02:41 PM

Hi,

Rhiannon at the Welsh Folk-Song Society was kind enough to send copies of the Welsh versions in Journal of the Welsh Folk-Song Society: Volume 2, pages 48-52 by the Welsh Folk-Song Society- 1914. The first version was in the Celtic Review. Here's the second (with music):

No. 2. O fy Mab Anwyl

Lle buost ti neithiwr- from collection of folk songs at Carmathen, Eisteddfod, 1911

1. Lle buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?
Lle buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?
Pysgota fuais neithiwr,
O ta'nwch fy ngwely,
'Rwy'n a'm calon ar fyned i'r bedd.

* * * *

1. Where wert thou last night, dear son of thy mother?
Where wert thou last night, dear son of thy mother?
I was fishing last night,
Spread my bed,
I am sick and my heart is going to the grave.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 02 Aug 18 - 03:37 PM

Hi,

Here are the other two versions from: Journal of the Welsh Folk-Song Society: Volume 2, pages 48-52 by the Welsh Folk-Song Society- 1914, (with music), the first dates back to 1831.

No. 3. O fy Mab Anwyl

Ple buost ti neithiwr? (Where were you last night?). "Sung by Miss Davies, Aberystwyth, January, 1911. Her mother used to sing it when a child about 80 years ago, — she had in all probability learnt it from her grandmother." — Miss Jennie Williams, Aberystwyth."

"Ple buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?
Ple buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?"
"Pysgota fuais neithiwr,
Cy weiriwch fy ngwely,
'Rwy'n glaf am calon ar fyned i'r bedd."

"Where were you last night, dear son of thy mother?
Where were you last night, dear son of thy mother?"
"I went fishing last night,
Please make my bed,
I am sick and my heart is going to the grave."

* * * *

No. 4. O fy Mab Anwyl

Ple buost ti neithiwr- Recorded by Miss Rosaleen Graves in September, 1911 from the singing of Hugh J. Hughes of Harlech who learned it from his uncle, Robert Jones of Rhosdda.

1. "Lle buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?
Lle buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?"
"Yn hela sgwarnogod, mam,
A Ch'weiriwch fy ngwely,
'Rwy'n glaf am calon ar fyned i'r bedd."

2. "Ple buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?
Ple buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?"
"Pysgota mab anwyl, mam,
A Ch'weiriwch fy ngwely,
'Rwy'n glaf am calon ar fyned i'r bedd."

3. "Beth gefaist ti i'w fwyta" &c,
"Ces neidr, mam," &c

4. Beth yw dy glefyd, &c.
Bradwriaeth, mam, &c

5. Beth roi di i dy fam, &c
Rhof gortyn, mam &c

* * * *

1. "Where were you yesterday, dear son of thy mother?
Where were you yesterday, dear son of thy mother?"
"Hunting hares, mother,
Please make my bed,
I am sick and my heart is going to the grave."

2. "Where were you last night, dear son of thy mother?
Where were you last night, dear son of thy mother?"
"I went fishing, mother,
Please make my bed,
I am sick and my heart is going to the grave."

3. "What did you have for food?" &c (sim.)
"I had a snake, mother," &c

4. What is your fever" &c
Treachery, mother &c

5. What will you give your mother? &c
I will give a rope &c

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 04 Aug 18 - 01:15 PM

Hi

Trying to finish British and other versions of Child 12. Apparently there's a version by John Clare "John Randall my son" that he learned from his father. Also need the Child 12 version from Sam Henry's Songs of the People' (G. Huntington, 1990) p. 415. One more: Colm McDonald, Folk Songs of Britain, Vol 4. The Child Ballads, I, Caedmon TC 1145, LP (1961)

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 18 - 01:42 PM

Can do you all of these
The Clare and Sam Henry ones come with tunes so if you want them you'll have to PM me an e-mail address
The Colm McDonagh Irish language version is a recording which I can send as an attachment
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Aug 18 - 04:26 PM

I've got the Sam Henry & John Clare covered, Jim. Probably got the Caedmon in the notes booklet as well.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Aug 18 - 04:57 PM

All 3 despatched.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Aug 18 - 04:58 PM

Jim
You appear to have easy access to a scanner. Happy to share the load if you are.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 18 - 07:44 PM

Have e-mailed you Steve
Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 12:15 AM

TY Steve and Jim,

I post texts here later

Jim,

I couldn't find the Andy Cash or Pops Johnny Connors version online- are they online?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 04:10 AM

"I couldn't find the Andy Cash or Pops Johnny Connors version online- are they online?"
No, but if I have an e-mail address I can post them to you
Have you done Edward yet ?
We have an interesting take on the ballad from 'Pop's' Johnny - he calls it 'The Ballad of Cain and Abel' and links it to the origins of the Travellers
Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 07:50 AM

Hi Jim,

My email is [e-mail] -- yes, Edward is next, probably on another thread. Here's the John Clare text, as originally given with a couple changes in brackets:

* * * *

Described as "Old Ballad of John Randall from my Father & Mothers memory with a few additions" and "my Fathers version was Lord Randall and my mothers John there was little other difference." The additions by Clare were clearly stanzas 5, 7 and 11. He made two nearly identical two copies, one with his mother's "John Randall" and the other with his father's "Lord Randle." The ballad is in three line form (1st line is not repeated):

Lord Randle (Old Ballad of John Randall)- written by John Clare (b. 1793) of Northampton from his parents versions c.1818, dating back through them to the late 1700s.

1. Where have you been to Lord Randle my son
A hawking & hunting mother make my bed soon
Im sick at my heart & fain would ly[e] down.

2. Where's you hawk and hound then Lord Randle my son
Theyre dinnerd & dead mother make my bed soon
Im sick at my heart & fain would lye down.

3. What had you for dinner Lord Randle my son
Eels in fresh broth mother make my bed soon,
Im sick at my heart & fain would ly[e] down.

4 What color were they Lord Randall my son
Their skins tehy were spotted mother make my bed soon,
Im sick at my heart & fain would lye down.

5. They swam in no river- Thye basked in the sun
& crawled in the hedge bottoms- O make my bed soon,
Im sick at my heart mother let me lie down.

6. O then your poisoned Lord Randall my son
It was my own sweetheart, mother make my bed soon,
Im sick at my heart & fain would lye down.

7. My hound eat the skins & fell ere he[a]d done [down]
At her door like a stranger, O make my bed soon,
Im sick at my heart & fain to lye down.

8. What will you leave [mother][1] Lord Randle my son
My lands and my livings mother make my bed soon,
Im sick at my heart & fain would lye down.

9. What leave you your brother Lord Randle my son
My coach and my horses mother make my bed soon,
Im sick at my heart & I fain would lye down.

10. What leave you your sweetheart Lord Randle my son
The curse of god mother O make my bed soon,
For Im sick at my heart & I fain would lye down.

11. My hawk on her hand looked for friends & and found none
Taking poison for kindness- O hear my will soon
For Im sick sad & weary & fain would lye down.

1. has "mother" in his mother's copy.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 11:05 AM

Hi,

Have put most of Child 12 versions on my site. I only have one version of Canadian "Le Garçon Empoisonné" from Arcadia and it's from 'Le Testament du Garçon Empoisonné ': A French 'Lord Randal' in Acadie by Robert Paquin; Folklore, Vol. 91, No. 2 (1980), pp. 157-172.

Does anyone have a link or can post text of another version? Still no versions from France?

Collection Bouthillier-Labrie No. 1460. Sung by M. Onsime Brideau and his wife Alvina (nee Saint-Pierre), respectively 63 and 53 years old; Saint-Ime, county Gloucester, N.B., summer 1976.

'LE TESTAMENT DU GARCON EMPOISONNE'

1. Oiiss' t'as 'te hier au soir, Honoré mon enfant?
Oiiss' t'as 'te hier au soir, dit'-moi mon cher enfant?
J'ai 'te courter les fill', maman rangez mon lit
Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je veux aller me coucher

2 Quoiss' t'as mangé hier au soir, Honore mon enfant?
Quoiss' t'as mangé hier au soir, dit'-moi mon cher enfant?
Un p'tit poisson saumure, que ma blond' m'a donne
Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je crois je m'en vas mourir

3 Quoiss' tu donn'ras ? ta mrr', Honoré mon enfant?
Quoiss' tu donn'ras A ta mere', dit'-moi mon cher enfant?
Ma petit' vache a lait, maman rangez mon lit
Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je veux aller me coucher

4 Quoiss' tu donn'ras? ton per', Honoré mon enfant?
Quoiss' tu donn'ras? ton per', dit'-moi mon cher enfant?
Ma grange et ma maison, maman rangez mon lit
Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je crois je m'en vas mourir

5 Quoiss' tu donn'ras? ton frer', Honoré mon enfant?
Quoiss' tu donn'ras a ton frer', dit'-moi mon cher enfant?
Mon ch'val et ma charrett', maman rangez mon lit
Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je veux aller me coucher

6 Quoiss' tu donn'ras? ta soeur, Honoré mon enfant?
Quoiss' tu donn'ras? ta soeur, dit'-moi mon cher enfant?
Ma petit' mont' en or, maman, rangez mon lit
Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je veux aller me coucher

7 Quoiss' tu donn'ras a ta blond', Honoré mon enfant?
Quoiss' tu donn'ras Ata blond', dit'-moi mon cher enfant?
Un petit bout' de cib', pour la pend' d'un arb' vert
Ell' l'a bien marité, c'est ell' qui m'a empoisonné



'LORD RANDAL'

1 O what is the matter Henery my son?
O what is the matter my own dearest one?
I've been to my sweetheart mother make my bed soon
I feel sick at the heart and fain would lie down

2 What did she give you Henery my son?
O what did she give you my dearest one?
She gave me golden fishes mother make my bed soon
I feel sick at heart and fain would lie down

3 What will you will your mother Henery my son?
What will you will your mother my own dearest one?
I will you my money mother make my bed soon
I feel sick at the heart and I fain would lie down

4 What will you will your father Henery my son?
What will you will your father my own dearest one?
I will him my land and houses mother make my bed soon
I feel sick at heart and I fain would lie down

5 What will you will your sister Henery my son?
What will you will your sister my own dearest one?
I will her my sheep and cattle mother make my bed soon
I feel sick at heart and I fain would lie down.

6 What will you will your brother Henery my son?
What will you will your brother my own dearest one?
I'll will him my horse and saddle mother make my bed soon
I feel sick at the heart and I fain would lie down

7 What will you will your sweetheart Henery my son?
What will you will your sweetheart my own dearest one?
I'll will her a rope to hang herself on yonder green tree
It was poison she gave me and she has[1] [betrayed] you and me.

1. Betrayed? (Creighton's note).

* * * *
Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 11:25 AM

Hi,

Here are the British, Italian, Swedish, German versions of Child 12 " Lord Randal" that I've just put on my site. I'm missing just a few. If there are any versions that you don't see on there please post the title and artist and I'll include.

    L'Avvelenato- Camillo "il Bianchino" (Verona) 1629 Broadside
    Lord Ronald, My Son- (Ayr) 1793 R. Burns, Child F
    Randall, My Son- Parsons (Suffolk) 1775 Child S
    Die Schlangenkochin- (Ger) 1802 Clemens Brentano's "Godwi"
    Lord Randal- anon (Selk) 1803 W. Scott; Child D
    Lairde Rowlande- Philodice (Perth) 1804; Child E
    Lord Randal- W. Laidlaw (Selk) c.1805; Child T   
    Lord Randal- Charles Mackie (Edin) 1808; Child A
    Billy, My Son- (Suf) 1814 Jamieson, Child G
    Den Lillas Testamente- (Sweden) 1816 Erik Geijer
    Lord Randle- John Clare (Northamp) c.1818
    Wee Croodin' Doo- Henry Broadwood (Sus) c.1820 JFSS
    Wee Croodlin Dow- Maxwell (Renf) c.1820 Child J
    Wee Toorin Dow- (Scot) c.1820 Pitcairn MS; Child R
    Lord Randal- anon (Scot) 1825 Cunningham
    Croodlin' Doo- (Scot) 1826 Chambers; Child K
    Lord Donald- Comie (Aber) 1827 Kinloch; Child B
    King Henry- Margaret Bain (Perth) c.1827 Child C
    Wee Cruidland Dou- N. Orr (Renf) c1827 Crawfurd
    Willie Doo- (N. Scot) 1828 Buchan; Child L
    Wee Croudlin Doo- (Edin) c.1828 J. Burton; Child N
    My Wee Crooding Doo- Archibald (Rox) 1830 Child U
    Jacky, My Son- Adams (Dev) c.1830; Child
    Ple buost ti neithiwr- Davies (Aberystwyth) 1831
    Lord Ronald My Son- Webster (Kells) c1833; Child P
    Own Pretty Boy- (Irish) 1836 Mary Boddington
    Den Lillas Testamente (Sweden) 1837 Arwidsson
    Die Schlangenkochin- (Hessen, N. Germany) 1838
    King Henry, My Son- Robert Lattimer (Cum) c.1840
    The Croodlin Doo- Tytler (Edin) c.1840 Child O
    Stiefmutter- anon (Germany) 1844 Johann L. Uhland
    Lord Randal- Robertson (N. Scot) 1845; Child Q
    Lairde Rowlande- (Scot) 1849 Halliwell, Child E
    My Dear Son- Davies (Wales) c.1856 G. Davies
    Schlangenköchin- anon (Wilsnack) 1856 Ludwig Erk
    King Henry, My Son- Margaret Scott (Cum) c.1860
    The Croodin Doo- Findlay (Fife) c.1865; Child
    L'Avvelenato- anon (Como) 1867 Giovanni B. Bolza
    My Own Pretty Boy- Healy (Kerry) 1868 Child H
    The Croodin Doo- Lockhart (Berw) 1870 Child M
    L'Amante Avvenato- (Lucchese) 1879 G. Giannini
    Lord Ronald- Cruickshank (Aber) 1881 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Willie Mathieson(Aber) 1890 Carpenter
    Rendal, My Son- Mrs. Hooper (Som) 1904 Sharp A
    Henery, My Son- Mrs. Perry (Som) 1904 Sharp B
    Henery, My Son- Pond (Som) 1904 Sharp C
    Rendal, My Son- Wyatt (Som) 1904 Sharp D
    Rendal, My Son- Brown (Som) 1904 Sharp E
    Henery my Son- Mrs. Bond (Camb) 1904 Sharp MS
    Rendel, my fair one- C. Hill (Som) 1904 Sharp MS
    Own Darling Boy- Miss Brown (Dor) 1905 Hammond
    Lord Ronald- B. Alexander (Aber) 1905 Greig G
    Song of the Eel- Old Rogers (Ros) 1905 Hyde
    My Darling Boy- Henry Welsh (Dor) 1906 Hammond
    Lord Rendal- Grace Coles (Som) 1906 Sharp MS
    L'Avvelenato- anon (Pisa) 1906, D'Ancona A
    Lord Ronald- Margaret Gillespie(Aber) 1906 Greig F
    Lord Donald- Bell Roberston (Aber) 1906 Grieg J
    Henery, my son- Mrs. Pike (Som) 1906 Sharp MS
    Three Drops of Poison- Kemp (Surry) 1907
    My Own Darling Boy- Gulliver (Hamp) 1907 Gardiner
    Rendal, My Son- Mrs. Hunt (Dor) 1907 Hammond
    Lord Ronald- anon (Aber) c.1907 Greig I
    Henry, My Son- James Brown (Aber) 1907 Greig A
    Lord Ronald- Alexander Robb (Aber) c.1907 Greig B
    Oh Mak' My Bed Easy- G Riddell (Aber) 1907 Greig C
    Lord Ronald- Mrs. A. Lyall (Aber) 1907 Greig D
    Lord Ronald- A. Grieg (Aber) 1907 Greig/Keith C
    The Little Wee Croodin' Doo- Cremer (Lanc) 1908
    Lord Ronald- MaCrae (Lon) 1908 Broadwood JFSS
    Henry My Son- Jane Gulliford (Som) 1908 Sharp MS
    O where are you going to? Miles (Sus) 1908 VW
    Henry, my Son- Alice Davy (Som) 1908 Sharp MS
    Lord Ronald- William Ross (Aber) c.1910 Greig/Carp
    Lle buost ti neithiwr- (Wales) 1911 WFSS, B
    Ple buost ti neithiwr- Hughes (Harlech) 1911 WFSS
    'Enery, my son- Kate Buchanan (Dur) 1913 Sharp MS
    Where Were You All Day- Cochlain (Cork) 1914
    Dove andashti ieri sera?- D. Persi (It) 1915 JFSS
    Lord Randal- MacSweeney (Ireland) c. 1918
    Henry, My Son- George Dunn (Staff) c.1920 REC
    Henry, My Son- C. Hole (Birm-Wales) c.1924
    Henry, My Son- P. Johnson (Warw) 1926 Collinson
    Young Rolland- Doug Home (Aber) c.1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Bell Duncan (Aber) c.1931 Carpenter
    Lord Rondal- Jean Ironside (aber) c.1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Jean Barclay (Aber) c.1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Elsie Miln (Aber) c.1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- girl singers (Aber) c.1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Mrs. J. Pirie (Banff) c1931 Carpenter
    Lord Randal- Mrs W Duncan (Aber) c1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Hector Campbell (Aber) 1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Jean Esselmont (Aber) 1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- William Duncan (Aber) 1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Will Morrison (Aber) c1931 Carpenter
    Young Donald- Mrs. Cameron (aber) 1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Isabella Reed (Banff) 1931 Carpenter
    Lord Randal- Peter Christie (Aber) 1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Mary Robertson (Aber) 1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Woman singer (Banff) 1931 Carpenter
    Lord Randle- Jeanie Durward (Aber) 1932 Carpenter
    Willy Doo- anon (Scotland) 1933 Alfred Moffat
    Lord Ronald- Will Fyffe (Soct) 1939 Movie
    Lord Ronald- John M'Neill (Col) 1939 Sam Henry
    Henry, My Son- Sellars (Bris) 1941 Pafford
    Lord Ronald- J. Laurenson (Shet) 1947 S.-Shaw
    Lord Donald- Jeannie Robertson (Aber) 1952 REC
    Lord Randall- Ewan MacColl/Miller (Scot) 1951 REC
    Ca raibh tu ar feadh an lae? McDonagh (Gal) 1951
    Lord Randal- Catriona Grant (Edin) 1953 Henderson
    Lord Ronald- Jimmy Stewart(Angus) 1953 Henderson
    Lord Randal- Martha Reid (Perth) 1955 Fleming REC
    Henry My Son- anon (Sus) c.1957 Mervyn Plunkett
    Lord Ronald- Jean Stewart (Aber) 1960 Goldstein
    Lord Ranald- Norman Kennedy(Aber) 1960 MacInnes
    Henry, my Son- Fred Jordan (Shrop) 1964 Yates
    The Song of the Eel- Heaney (Ireland) pre-1964
    Lord Donald- Arthur Lochead (Aber) 1965 Chapbook
    Rundle My Son- Mary Reid (Fife) 1967 Shepheard
    Rundle My Son- John Stewart (Fife) 1967 Shepheard
    Henry, My Son- Mrs Holden (Worc) 1968 Hamer
    Lord Donald- Archie Webster (Fife) 1969 Shepheard
    Henry, My Son- George Spicer (Sus) 1973 Yates
    Lord Ronald- John MacDonald (Mor) 1974 Engle
    Lord Ronald- John MacDonald (Glas) 1975 Fullarton
    Lord Ronald - Betsy Whyte (Angus) 1987 REC
    The Wild, Wild Berry- H. Civil (Shrop) 1989
    What had you for breakfast- Moran(Leit) 1954 Ennis
    O Fy Mab Anwyl- Eirlys/Eddis Thomas (Wales) c1954
    Lord Randal- Frank Quinn (Tyrone) 1958 O'Boyle
    O Son, Dear Son- Kathleen Ward (Galway) c.1956
    My Bonny Brown Boy- Kathleen Behan (Dub) 1956
    Mab Annwyl Dy Fam- Meredydd Evans (Wales) 1954
    My Own Darling Boy- Elizabeth Cronin (Cork) 1954
    Buried in Kilkenny- Mary Delaney (Tip) 1977 REC
    Buried in Kilkenny- Paddy Reilly (Dub) c.1977 REC
    Henry, My Son- Frank Harte (Dub) 1967 REC
    What Had You For Your Dinner? McCarthy (Off) 2008
    My Own Pretty Boy- Maggie Mongins (Gal) 2016 REC
    My Own Bonnie Boy- Ed McDonagh (Tuam) 2016

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 07:42 PM

Hi,

I bought a house and have to fix it up in the next two weeks. I've already been working on it for two weeks, we will resume with Child 13 about then or maybe sooner.

TY for all the help and I'll be looking forward to Child 13.

Richie