Help: Gaelic

Subject: Help: Gaelic
From: Barry T
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 05:12 PM

Here is a song titled Young MacDonald that I'm about to add to my Canadian tunebook.

Though the song is about a young chap in Glengarry County, Ontario, Canada, it's origin is obviously Gaelic. My question is: Are the snippets of Gaelic text in the lyrics real or just phonetic mush? Do they translate into anything that makes sense?

Does anyone recognize the tune from which this originates?

url link fixed by mudelf ;-)

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 05:30 PM

Barry:

Send a PM to Aine on it -- she speaks the lingo.

A

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic
From: Áine
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 09:26 PM

Dear Barry,

I took a look at the song, and I believe that the words are in Scots Gaelic, which I unfortunately don't know. The anglicized form of spelling is very confusing, to say the least. Hopefully, one of the Scots Gaelic speakers on the forum will see this thread and be able to help you.

Great good luck, Áine

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 09:48 PM

Barry T
This looks very like a song I picked up while researching Macaronic songs in the Celtic Languages. Exhaustive enquiries both in Scotland and in Ireland involving some of the foremost scholars proved fruitless. The words are intended to be a phonetic rendition of Scots Gaelic, but have been so corrupted by the non-Gaelic-speaking writer as to be unintelligible. Sorry.
Annraoi

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic
From: Jimmy C
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 10:32 PM

This sounds like it could be a Cape Breton song, Scots gaelic is still spoken there but through the years it has probably been altered in much the same way as Quebec french differs from Parisian french. Anyone from the Cape Breton Highlands out there ?.

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 10:42 PM

BTW I couldn't sit still and let a wonderful word like macaronic just fly by! If like me you were left wondering what it was about and what relationship it has with pasta, here's a reference:

ADJECTIVE: 1. Of or containing a mixture of vernacular words with Latin words or with vernacular words given Latinate endings: macaronic verse.

2. Of or involving a mixture of two or more languages.

ETYMOLOGY:

New Latin macaronicus, from Italian maccheronea, macaronic verse, after Maccharonea, title of a work containing such verse by Tifi Odasi, 15th-century Italian author, from maccherone, maccaroni, course food.

How ya like them noodles?

A

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic
From:
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 12:05 AM

I think they are Scottish Gaelic. The "gra" part of "gratalion" sounds like "gradh" which means "love". The "oosa" from "denoosa" is probably "Thu-sa", the emphatic "you". The "hu" of "huki" is most likely the non-emphatic "thu".

Will look a little closer, Barry.

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic
From: paddymac
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 02:03 AM

Thanks, Amos. You saved me a trip to the dictionary.

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic
From:
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 08:08 PM

Well, a little bit further. I haven't finished it completely. I have a few more possibles. I don't blame her, huki wari.          I don't blame her, Thug i _____

Aye grattalion bounsa guiles          __ gradh ta leam b'annsa ghaol-s'

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic
From: Barry T
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 09:01 PM

Way to go, George! This linguistic supersleuthing must surely qualify you as a "macaronicist"!

Now that Annraoi and Amos have armed me with new found knowledge and vocabulary, I realize that I'm hearing evidence everywhere around me, even in my own family: Like, you know, a mixture of, like, English and, like, Valley Girl and stuff!

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic
From: ollaimh
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 09:24 PM

geargo seto is likely right but jesus that is one garbled written form.

seeing as the verse is aye gratallion, i guess it was e gra-t-a(what ever that is then repeated

as in he loves (who ever that name is supposed to be,0 he loves etc. the oosa seems right too. but the den mistifies me except n and t are often used a separaters in phrases without the correct ballance of narrow and broad vowels--don't ask.

there were gaelic speakers in glengarry ontario and there is still one native speaker left. david livingston-low of the u of toronto celtic studies department knows him, and in fact does a lot of song collecting up there, and goes to the local celtic festival every year. you might try him or his wife debbie .they likely know the song and the proper gaelic

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic
From:
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 10:44 AM

Thanks, I forgot about David. I'll send him a copy of this song, and the forum discussion.

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic
From:
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 05:17 PM

Here is David Livingston-Lowe's reply

Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 23:50:29 -0400
From: D. Livingston-Lowe <[e-mail]>
To: George Seto <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Young MacDonald
 
A Sheòrais chòir,
 
Rinn thusa obair eireachdail air an òran seo mu thràth! I'm not sure I could come up with any better guesses than you have already.
 
While you don't want to give up on the possiblility of recovering the hidden Gaelic in this macaronic song, it is also possible that they are just nonsense vocables common enough in both English and Gaelic song. Or maybe they were, or resemble, real Gaelic words but are only loosely based on them (vocables again).
 
I can think of a time I heard a popular singer from Nova Scotia (who I won't name) sing a 'Gaelic' song he thought he knew well from youth. I'm sure that he did know it from youth, after a fashion. But the words were nothing to him but jibberish. Given that caveat, however, it may just be possible to speculate on some of the Gaelic roots of these sounds.
 
Your 'Aye, (an) gràdh a tà leam' / 'Aye, (the) love that I have' is a great speculation and I can't come up with anything better. If the -tt- weren't there, I might also have thought 'Aye, an gràdh is àill leam' / 'Aye, the love I love best (prefer) or 'Aye, my favorite love'. But the -t- is there and doubled at that, so maybe your guess is better.
 
Huki wari. Hmm. I like your 'Thug i'. I wonder if the w is a broad l, giving us a word that sounds/looks like 'laraidh', or maybe even 'làr i'. Cuir mu làr = abrogate/neglect. Would "Thug i (m') làr e", she forgot about him, be possible. Pure speculation on my part.
 
Thisakerry. Shìos an ?
suas learchin. Suas (an) leargann? Suas (na) leòidean. Leòidean is the pl. of leathad. Non-native speakers often hear the neutral vowel followed by a consonant as having an -r- quality, because their only comparison is the English of England (e.g. taod sounds a bit like turd as pronounced by an English person to someone without much Gaelic.
 
meen is likely mìn
goya - I wonder if it might be bridheach, or even the -y- representing a slender -r-?
 
Anyhow, those are my thoughts for tonight. If I have a chance later this week, I'll give it another crack. Have you tried Jim Watson? I doubt there is anyone more qualified in Canada to speculate on this.
 
Is mise le meas,
Dàibhidh.