BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?

Subject: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 04:56 AM

Kids (15/13) mother was taken ill on holiday in New York. I'd have thought they would have put them up in a hotel, and got someone to look after them until their mother was well, or failing that arranged a flight home. They didn't..

Seems an odd way of "protecting" children.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 08:30 AM

Foster care in NYC is a nightmare. Those girls were lucky they were not raped. My son spent eight horrible and abusive years in it - I repeat "A NIGHTMARE!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 08:58 AM

Wow - this is something even Sicko didn't address. How absolutely awful. I guess don't visit places you don't know anybody?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Bee
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 09:02 AM

It seems very odd, given the circumstances, that the girls were shifted off to social services and that was the solution the authorities came up with. Surely the girls are old enough to know and have phone numbers of UK relatives or friends who could have intervened, maybe even flown over to assist or arranged to have them flown home.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 09:13 AM

Stupid, stupid, stupid. Inhumane, uncaring, and bordering on the obscene.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 09:24 AM

They may have been old enough and sensible enough, but I suspect they weren't given the chance to explain or complain. Once a child gets on such a list in an overworked and underfunded department as Child Services is portrayed as, then they are just another pair of names to go through the mill as quickly as possible. It's doubtful the social worker even knew why they were being palmed off onto the orphanage.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 09:42 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Out-of-Towners_%281970_film%29

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:25 AM

How can any of us comment on the story when only one side is being presented? Sure, social services suck and people are not always treated with the respect and care they deserve- but you are only hearing one side of the story. The press love to jump on the sensational to get a rise from the reader. Not all the facts are clear. Just stepping back and thinking about this opens up a lot of questions. Let's see how the story develops.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:52 AM

Are they all back home, together, now, at least? If the mum is in the UK, how can the US authorities "investigate" her? What right have they?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 12:26 PM

What do you suppose the "other side" is, Ron? Please suggest some of those questions you think stepping back opens up.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 01:19 PM

1. What was the name of the "orphanage"? The word "orphanage" tends to conjur up images of Oliver Twist, but the reality of these places are far different.

2. What other questions were the girls asked? It seems that a social services officer would be remiss if they did not ask questions pertaining to abuse. The press jumps on social services when someone slips through the cracks.

3. Not knowing the mothers condition, social services (according to the story) was trying to find a foster home. Given that the mother was ill, would you send two girls who could have been exposed to an undiagnosed illness to another persons home with checking on their condition?

4. They were "stripped". That is a loaded word. Do you take a shower with your clothes on? The article says their clothes were removed, but it doesn't say that they were physically removed. Did someone rip the clothes off them, or were they told to take a shower?

5. In abscence of their mothers consent since she was obviously ill, the law is that the state becomes the guardian. I think that is standard in any country in the world when no one is available.

6. The woman was sent a letter saying she was being investigated, but for what?   Could it be that they are investigating the situation to see if there was any wrongdoing in the treatment of the girls - or if there was something more than the story that the mother was saying. In either case, it would be prudent for a followup.

Since the story came from the BBC, and given their past, I would not expect a full independent or unbiased reporting of the incident. I am rather surprised that some Mudcatters who I respect would not at least question what they read.   There is a very good chance that this story is 100% correct and someone in Human Services needs to be held accountable, but there are enough questions that deserve to be asked before passing judgement instead of basing a decision on a piece of sloppy journalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 01:21 PM

There is no other side or she would not have been allowed to leave the country with her children.
Upon their return, Yvonne Bray received a letter from ACS informing her that they were investigating her for child neglect. ACS told the Daily News, "Children's Services assisted a mother whose children could not remain safe by themselves," and mentioned the mother could expect another letter saying the case was closed. ACS also disputed reports that the girls had been strip searched, "Children's Services assisted a mother whose children could not remain safe by themselves in a country that was strange to them. Our procedures at the Children's Center are respectful of all youth who are brought there."

It was Elmhurst Hospital in Jackson Heights which is known for its first-rate emergency care but appears more a prison than a hospital. Children's Services will hide behind the catch-all "privacy issues. I still the girls were lucky they were not raped.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 01:26 PM

She may have been ill, but it doesn't sound like she was unconscious. They could have consulted with her while she was in the hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 01:32 PM

They did consult with her - she agree to let social services take the children - here is the Daily News Story -

Daily News

Our health care system sucks, our hospitals are not charming hotels. I am very sorry that anyone gets exposed to this.   Still, there are questions that are not being asked.

Also, there are some cultural differences at work here. She expected her children would be delivered to some family? Not a reality in the short term. If this woman needed long term care, a family stay would be a consideration if they could not find a legal guardian.   It sounds like the girls spent the night in a group home, not the way I would want my kids to spend the night, but under the circumstance I am not sure there is enough information to say they were mistreated.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 02:02 PM

ONe of the reports I read said they even took their underwear. One would presume the "search" then included body cavities. For that alone, they should be called on the carpet.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 02:04 PM

I looked up the BBC story. They reported what the mother told them. They contacted ACS, but were told the Agency couldn't comment.
The BBC article reported the mother's story but made no judgement.
I watch the BBC News daily and remember no story- it was probably only carried locally in the UK service.
The BBC news, along with the NY Times and Washington Post, are the most reliable sources of the news available.
The whole thing is a tempest in a teapot, exacerbated by complete unfamiliarity with the procedures set up by the NY police services and the ACS.
The girls were examined medically and given uniforms. This is not 'strip-search.' They were asked questions that would typically be asked in a large city, but probably foreign to small town UK youth. From what I know of cities like Glasgow and Manchester, treatment probably would be similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 02:08 PM

The BBC story may be found by going to the BBC news website and entering the mother's name in the Search box.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 02:15 PM

Or you can click on the link in the first post.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 02:15 PM

" One would presume the "search" then included body cavities "

Why would one presume that? It is exactly that kind of presumption that is at the heart of these kind of stories.

"The BBC news, along with the NY Times and Washington Post, are the most reliable sources of the news available. "

That is debatable. Frankly there is no such thing as a single reliable source anymore, and most people tend to read only one source and assume that is the truth. Fox News watches are not known for channel surfing either.   Journalism is shoddy these days, getting a story fast is the criteria and getting it accurate is secondary.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 06:33 PM

If "the other side" won't say anything how is it possible to include its spin on the story? Would you object to a report about a mugging because it didn't include "the other side"?

"...there are some cultural differences at work here" Well, that's true. I can't conceive of anything like this happening to an American family visiting this country. Social workers here screw things up sometimes (and I say that based on being one for over 20 years), but not in that kind of way.

BBC News and Fox News are slightly different animals. And not just bexcause of "cultural differences".

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 06:42 PM

If you need a straight story, told straight, the BBC is probably the best in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 09:26 PM

Sorry McGrath - this is not a mugging. Because you can't imagine something does not make it true.

"The other side" is not the point. The point is that there are questions that deserve to be asked and answers that would fill in the story. If you can't recognize that there is information missing, then you have obviously made up your mind.

If there is an investigation going on, who would expect answers right away?

If you are all sold that the BBC is unbiased and the best in the world, then there is little opportunity for discussion. That kind of blind faith in any single source is dangerous. It is the same thing as believing the crap fed out by Fox. Think for yourselves - ask questions.

For the last time - I am not saying that the original story is not true. These girls could have been mistreated. They certainly feel that the were. It could also open up a significant problem in the way ALL children are treated - not just a couple of kids on vacation from another country.

Think for yourselves - you are smart people but you fail to ask questions and accept anything that is handed to you - merely because you trust the source. Use common sense and ask questions. NONE of us know what happened. I certainly have no idea other than a few quotes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:05 PM

There seems no reason to think that the two girls and their mother were lying, Ron, and in the light of your comment that "social services suck and people are not always treated with the respect and care they deserve" it seems reasonable to accept their word.

There are plenty of UK media sources which are pretty suspect, as muich so as it appears that Fox is - but the BBC News is a pretty reliable source. If it carried a similar report of something like that happening to a visitor to this country I would be inclined to believe it. But of course, as with any news story, belief is to some extent provisional.

After all, even a reported mugging might turn out to be a fabrication or a distortion of what actually happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:55 PM

Sorry McGrath, but I don't think anyone said the girls and their mother were lying - so please do not put those words in my mouth.

I'm glad you feel that the BBC News is a reliable source. However, you don't seem to be understanding the point I have been trying to make. There are other questions to be asked and one report does not constitute the whole story.

I'm not sure how things are done in the UK, but if you are on trial here in the United States BOTH sides have their say and report how they saw the facts. Then a jury decides.   What the BBC report shows is one side of the story - a side that could very well be the entire story, but there are still unanswered questions.

A few years ago there was a big story in the NYC area about a couple from Denmark who left a baby in a stroller outside of a restaurant and went inside to eat. That is unthinkable to most people in this country. Your own country has a story about a young girl who was left alone by her parents at a hotel in Spain with tragic results. In some cultures, that sort of behavior is acceptable.

Yes, our health care sucks and social services suck and hospitals suck - to use plain English. I've had experience or know people who have dealt with such services. Still, the BBC story - and messages by individiuals on Mudcat - automatically condemn the actions and insinuate that the girls were mistreated.   

While they may not have liked to take a shower - there IS a question as to what sort of "force" they are describing. Were they physically held down and stripped, or were they handed clothes and told to go take a shower.

I'm sorry you don't seem to have any questions and accept everything in this story at face value - but I prefer not to make my own assumptions and wait to hear more before passing judgement. I'm not condoning nor condeming based on one single BBC story. They are far from perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:19 PM

Ron...try Portugal, not Spain.

If a young person has never in their life had to use a 'communal shower' what do you suppose they are going to think if they are told 'go take a shower'. In most homes, showers are a private thing....NOT communal.

The whole thing may have been a 'failure to communicate' but it is the arbitrariness of the actions that have me upset.

I'm awaiting more info before I decide who the Bad Guys are here. At least everyone seems to be back home in UK now.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:25 PM

Fine Sorcha - I made a mistake in the country, no harm no foul. I'm glad you questioned me!!!!

I do agree with you - I think it very well could be a failure to communicate and a failure on BOTH parties to understand each others needs and concerns.

I do realize that they were upset that they were told to take a shower, and I NEVER questioned that they were shattered by the whole experience.   My point is that there could have been legitimate reasons for the actions, and the news report can lead people to imagine all sorts of heinous acts - which may not be true.

Everyone loves to be a shithouse lawyer, but they don't want to ask questions or think.   I'm with you Sorcha, I am waiting for more info to decide - that has been my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 03:07 AM

Nobody said the BBC was perfect. We did say that it is probably the best in the world. You, Ron, started by assuming that what the BBC said was likely to be biased and wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Bert
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 03:25 AM

All sorts of weird things happen in this world and most often the best results occur when the government is left out of it.

When we left Barain in 1976 our four year old daughter was sick with a throat infection; so we took her to the quack who gave her a penicillin injection. Well that took care of her, but the next day we arrived in Jerusalem. At the hotel on the mount of olives, we both came down with whatever sickness it was and were bedridden.

All we had was the hotel roomservice which was pretty good. They sent us a doctor who gave us some medecine. For the next couple of days we were cared for by our four year old who was very capable and performed much better than those social services in New York.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 07:51 AM

You've puzzled me Ron - you say that "social services suck", and indicate that the children and their mother were telling the truth - but you object to the BBC story on the grounds that it didn't carry any explanation from the social services who were given the opportunity to have their say, and who refused to provide any information.

What were they supposed to do? Make up some speculative set of excuses, or suppress the story?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 08:22 AM

The thing that strikes me, and I would be concerned for any child sent through this system, is that these two girls were put on an automatic track, rather than being treated as individuals. They must already have been upset to see their mother ill enough to be hospitalised and to be told that they could not stay with her, their only known adult in a foreign country.

To then be taken to an institution and made to strip and shower in front of strangers, split up for a medical exam and asked if they had been abused or were suicidal must have been extremely traumatic. To be told that they could not visit their mother was even worse. Can you imagine just how distressing that must have been for both mother and daughters, given the mother's state of health? To add insult to injury mother then gets a letter from the ACS to say that she is being investigated.

No attention appears to have been taken the the INDIVIDUAL circumstances that applied here and that is the real concern. If this is the case in all placement of minors in New York the whole system needs to be looked at very seriously. How many other horror stories haven't been told?

The fact that the ACS are hiding behind 'confidentiality' does not surprise me. That seems to be the normal last defence of any organisation which has royally screwed things up and has no adequate answer to accusations laid against it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 08:38 AM

Is it unfair to suspect that what happened may reflect a "cultural difference" in which people in New York who make use of basic free public health and welfare services are seen as to some extent devalued and even susopect by virtue of the fact they are using a free service? Whereas for the Brays, as for most people in Britain and most other parts of Europe, making use of such free services is seen as perfectly normal and carries no stigma.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: skarpi
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 09:29 AM

well , they did the same thing to a woman from Iceland
in December held in jail for 48 hours and stripped her surch her
and then send her back to Iceland ,

IF YOU AMERICAN ARE ASKING US THE FOREIGN PEOPLE TO STOP VISIT
YOUR GREAT COUNTRY , THEN GO HEAD TREAT US ALL LIKE A TERRORIST .


There are many people who dont visit you r country anymore
just becouse your coverment are paranoid..


and treating the girls like this , well they should be a shame .

sorry but I am angry , I am 1/4 american I have a american granfather
and for long time I was a proud to tell all that I had american blood in me , but not any more I am a shamed to be .


All this paranoia is there just becouse of a Terroristma,
and the terrorist people have won , they got to you.

All the best Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 11:23 AM

"What were they supposed to do? Make up some speculative set of excuses, or suppress the story? "
They should use the basic principles of journalism. Who, What, When, Where and Why. They failed to get answers. The article was slanted only toward one perspective and did not ask some of the questions - or give indication that they investigated further. While it is true that the spokesperson did not give a lot of answers, there appears to be no further attempt to dig further. What about the hospital, the doctors, the "orphanage"? The BBC took "no" for an answer and did not investigate.

The BBC article makes an issue that they were given new clothes and forced to take a shower. The summation to the reader is that their clothes were forcibly removed and as some Mudcatters have surmised, they were given a full body cavity search. Even though the article does not state that, the writer has allowed the reader to make assumptions because they failed to gather more information.

Should they have surpressed the story? Perhaps! At least until they could gather more information. What ever happend to investigative journalism?   The writer has played to the passions of Brits that have distrust of the USA anyway, and for those in this country that know what a mess our medical and social services systems can be.

The BBC is no different than FOX and all the other media outlets who are trying to capture the ears and eyes of viewers and readers. It is about making money - and to do that, you need to get there first and capture attention - the facts come second.

Suppose I was involved in fender bender and I felt that the police were not sympathetic to my case. If I contacted the BBC and said that I was a victim of police brutality and that I was strip searched, fingerprinted and forced to take a mug shot. The BBC contacts the police who have no commet, but the BBC goes ahead and prints my side of the story. Instead of using words like "alleged" or "reportedly", they come up with a story that reads as if my words are the absolute truth. Would that be responsible journalism?

"No attention appears to have been taken the the INDIVIDUAL circumstances that applied here "
Including you Jacqui. With all due respect, you are reacting to the story on only one level. It is NOT just individual circumstances that need to be examined - it is, as you pointed out, the system that causes such events. THAT is where the story failed to be accurate, and THAT is exactly what Fox News excels at. It is not journalism. It is not "fair and balanced". The BBC, by lack of doing their homework, have followed the same practice. The reader reacts with emotion instead of really examing the issue.

"I would be concerned for any child sent through this system, is that these two girls were put on an automatic track, rather than being treated as individuals."
That might be the REAL story here. Why are people put on an automatic track? Part of it might be that it is has become standard practice because problems dealing with sheer volume. It is a huge problem, and one that is not resolved by of knee jerk reactions that result in more layers of government regulations and endless procedures. The INDIVIDUALS continue to get lost, in new and imaginative ways.

The story of these two girls and their mother is treated as an "incident", and people are reacting to the sensational details of the event - which may or may not be one families reaction to the events - and not the problems that may or may not be behind it. It sends up a smoke screen that causes more knee jerk reactions and the problem never gets fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 11:41 AM

" it is true that the spokesperson did not give a lot of answers" - well in fact, as the reportr states (and I see no reason to disbelieive it), they refyused tio guve any answers at all - "A spokeswoman from ACS told BBC News it was an 'entirely confidential matter' and the department would not comment."

So you don't say the Brays were liars, but you do say they shouldn't be believe? If I'd been writing the story I might have stuck in an all;eged - but since the facts as stated are evidently not disputed by social services there'd be no absolute need to do that.

The story behind the story - what's wrong with a system thattreats people like this, true enough that's teh biog story - and it'sthe business of the American media to dig into and sort out that kind of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 11:47 AM

Ron is right about this--The BBC's story is not even remotely accurate, they made up a name for the hospital, and put it in Harlem, and confused Queens for Queen's, and that's just for starters--the Daily News got the details right, and if the Daily News gives is more accurate than the BBC, you all are in a peck of trouble.

It really was an unfortunate situation, which then went terribly awry. What one calls "A New York Experience"-- And things could have been much worse--all's well that ends well, as someone once said.

It really comes down to cultural differences, as Kevin pointed out--most of us, at least the ones who have lived in big American cities, know better than to go to the ER of a city hospital with a health issue--it's the place to be if you've been shot, or hit by a semi, but if you're feeling a little off, you're put in the back of the line--

The same goes for needing help--if you go to ACS and ask for help, they don't have a lot of options--they do child neglect and child abuse, and in a "New York" kind of way. Even neglected and abused children don't want that--but you have to live in the neighborhood to know that they are a must to avoid--

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 11:55 AM

"So you don't say the Brays were liars, but you do say they shouldn't be believe?

Where the hell did I say that????

See, this is EXACTLY my point. You aren't asking questions and reading your own pre-conceived notions to a sensationalised story.

My initial comment was that there are more questions to be asked. If you feel that asking questions is wrong, then I pity you. Most people do like to receive as much information as possible before making ANY decision.

The "facts" as you call them, were not disputed, but they were not confirmed by ACS either.

I am quite convinced that these girls had a horrible experience.   I am not yet positive on what caused it.   Was it simply their sensitivity to the situation, the lack of sensitivity by the ACS, the system, or perhaps something in between? Why were they treated differently than anyone else if we aren't hearing more stories? Are they the only people to have gone through this sytem and complained about it?

Is it possible that you don't want to find out any more?

I guess what I said about the spokesperson for ACS also went over your head. IF you think that ONE person's answer is enough to base a story, then you are way too trusting. I pointed out in a previous note about some of the other people they should have asked. A trained journalist doing their job would do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 11:59 AM

I think I see the same group, all armed with their preconceived notions/biases about the USA (some of them even live here) using any excuse to cast aspersions.

I don't know the extent of truth in this story, but to suggest that the BBC, who never gave unbiased reports on the Troubles in the North of Ireland in all the years it went on, in fact wouldn't even use the recorded voices of the leaders of Sinn Fein, is evidence to support your biases. If these young women were mistreated, then those at fault need to be prosecuted. My guess is that if I were to search the logs in London, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo, Sydney, or any other large city in this world, I would see examples of the same.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 12:04 PM

The BBC News article makes it fairly clear that they are, in fact, reporting the mother's 'allegations' - unfortunately this is not always the case as, in a previous news item about identical twins discussed here at length, the article was based entirely on the contents of a well publicised/promoted book written by the twins themselves.

I think the situation does reflect (as McGrath points out) very different cultural/legal practices.

For example, parental approval would be required for a medical examination of a minor under these circumstances in the UK and, having worked in the Childrens Services in Manchester Q you have my assurance that the 'assesment' would not have so intimately intrusive nor would the children have been deprived of their personal clothing or restricted from visiting their mother unless there were very necessary grounds for health reasons.

One thing the UK system DOES seem to have in common with the American one however are strict rules of 'confidentiality' which are unfortunately often misinterpreted by those with an axe to grind as 'secrecy' or 'cover-up'

I agree wholeheartedly with Ron that the 'standard practice', including the sending of what would appear to be a very inappropiate letter, requires review.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Bee
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 12:05 PM

Ron, if you read Skarpi's post along with others regarding this particular story, you'll note that there may be a general expectation by us foriegners that American authorities can be expected to act in what we consider an out of bounds fashion. While most people can visit the US without running into serious difficulty, almost everyone knows at least one person (and usually several) with a horror story about how they've been treated, at the border or by American police.

9/11 and terrorism is used by overbearing and occasionally malicious people in authority as the excuse for harassing innocent people far too often, and a foriegner in the US can expect to be regarded with suspicion no matter where they are from. That is the message the US is allowing the rest of the world to hear. Stay out. Don't come here. We don't want you.

This single story, however onesided or biased or wrong, is the kind of thing we now expect to hear from the US, and so we are prepared to believe it regardless of its truth status.

It's too bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 12:13 PM

Exactly, Bee. Well-said.

{{{{{{{Skarpi}}}}}} hugs, darlin'...there is much shame in the way our government has allowed our country to get to such a state.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 12:13 PM

"This single story, however onesided or biased or wrong, is the kind of thing we now expect to hear from the US, and so we are prepared to believe it regardless of its truth status."

EXACTLY!   That is how bigotry, bias and hatred develop. One person hears a story that Jews control the economy, blacks are lazy, Poles are stupid,Irish are drunks and Brits have bad teeth - and suddenly it becomes fact. We never seem to learn to question.

The U.S. has a HUGE problem with the knee jerk reaction to 9/11. The woman from Iceland is one example, however I do not know the whole story. If someone has some links, I would love to see them. My own ex-sister-in-law was detained by authorities for making a comment on an airplane that 10 years ago would and should have been laughed off.   Yet as soon as one unsavorable character enters the country and commits a crime, everyone complains about our lack of security. You can't win this one because every side is reacting instead of thinking.

If anyone believes a single story and can draw conclusions about a country, perhaps it is better if you stay home. Maybe we don't need your problems. If you have a drop of American blood and think that way, maybe it is best if you don't associate yourself with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 12:24 PM

The non-use of Sinn Fein voices on BBC news reports in the '80s was due to government legislation prohibiting it, not BBC policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Bee
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 12:36 PM

Ron said: "If anyone believes a single story and can draw conclusions about a country, perhaps it is better if you stay home. Maybe we don't need your problems. If you have a drop of American blood and think that way, maybe it is best if you don't associate yourself with us. "

There you have it. Ron, it isn't this single story that is the problem, it is the multiplying of stories like this one that has people drawing conclusions about the US.

I lived in Florida for a year as a school kid. I have rafts of American born cousins living in Florida and Michigan. There are millions of lovely, kind, generous, intelligent people living in the US, some of whom I know well, some I've just met a few times, or communicate with here. The US is a beautiful country, a place many of us would love to explore. But we are being warned off by your government and your authorities, make no mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 12:39 PM

If anyone believes a single story and can draw conclusions about a country, perhaps it is better if you stay home. Maybe we don't need your problems. If you have a drop of American blood and think that way, maybe it is best if you don't associate yourself with us.

I hope that was not meant personally for Skarpi, Ron. He has been here several times to make music with Mudcat friends and I, for one, would never dream of telling him to not come over and would be saddened it he doesn't ever again.

We may never know the truth of this situation, but the perception is that it was wrong and should not have happened. I think you're going overboard in castigating us all. You've made your points. Some of us see it differently.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 12:49 PM

Fair enough, Gene, but the fact remains that the reporting from the North of Ireland was biased and one sided, and that skews the gratuitous assertion that BBC is any more or less reliable than US sources.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 12:55 PM

Civil servants at Homeland Security detained an Icelandic woman at the airport in New York City because on a prior visit, in 1995, she had overstayed her visa by a few days.

She told reporters that she was fingerprinted and photographed, made to undergo a medical examination, searched and placed in a jail cell. She also said she was asked absurd questions such as: When did you have your last period? What do you believe in? Have you ever tried to commit suicide?

Sounds like 'standard practice' again!

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 01:00 PM

Kat - I would hate for anyone not to visit us. There are too many artists that are unable to travel in the U.S. because of restrictions.

I have no personal grudge nor do I mean to express anger against Scarpi, but I think Scarpi was wrong to blame a country because of the actions of our government and lumping sterotypes into this discussion. If anyone is ashamed of their country, or their heritage, because of the actions of a few, that is not making things better. A country is more than those that are running the show. We have a diversity of thoughts and ideas. I'm involved in a discussion and I do not appreciate being insulted or having my country stereotyped along with its citizens. If anyone wants to deal with the subject, let's discuss that.

Please do not tell me that I am going "overboard" or "castigating" anyone. The last time I looked, having a discussion was about expressing ideas, not suppressing them.

"Ron, it isn't this single story that is the problem, it is the multiplying of stories like this one "
If you look at the percentage of cases, I would suggest that this incident is not the "norm". If it is the norm, we need to get the facts. Every priest is not a pedophile, the streets of New York City is no more dangerous than other cities, cops are not automatically on the take, Italians are not connected with the mob, and America is not trying to make life difficult for visitors. We have problems and we need to fix them, but do not make assumptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 02:22 PM

I hope indeed that this isn't something that would normally happen, but if I were an American who loved his country I'd be inclined to see it as a worrying wake-up call.

Every priest is not a pedophile, the streets of New York City is no more dangerous than other cities, cops are not automatically on the take, Italians are not connected with the mob, and America is not trying to make life difficult for visitors. Nothing in there I'd disagree with. (Though I'd maybe insert "some" or "many" before "other cities".)

However life was made very difficult for these visitors, without a need for trying. A medical crisis like that should have been a chance to show helpfulness and generosity and a spirit of welcome. The kind of things on which Americans are right to pride themselves, because they are pretty characteristic.

But the real question surely isn't "Is this how you treat visitors?" but "Is this how you treat your own people?" Or, as the heading of thsi thread puts it, "Is this how you treat kids in New York?" And that's not an assumption, it's a question.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 02:26 PM

Just for the record the webpage for the US Embassy in Reykjavik carries the following information for visitors.......

'Since its launch in January, the US-VISIT program has helped DHS and DOS officials intercept more than 200 persons with prior or suspected criminal or immigration violations. These included convicted rapists, drug traffickers, individuals convicted of credit card fraud, a convicted armed robber and numerous immigration violators and individuals attempting visa fraud.

Experience has shown that the US-VISIT enrollment process is fast and easy for travelers and works as an added layer of security. Since deploying US-VISIT entry capabilities at 115 airports and 14 seaports on January 5, 2004, more than 2.5 million foreign nationals have been processed without adversely impacting wait times.

Currently, US-VISIT requires that most foreign visitors traveling to the U.S. on a visa and arriving at an air or sea port have their two index fingers scanned and a digital photograph taken to verify their identity at the port of entry. By September 30, 2004, this process will also apply to visitors traveling under the VWP at all air and seaports of entry.'

Obviously anyone with a previous violation of immigration regulations, such as knowingly overstaying a Visa, will fall into this category and risks being included with the 'standard practice' that deals with all categories including drug traffickers etc. if attempting re entry into the country.

I'm not condoning the treatment this woman received but the Embassy advice to travellers makes the situation fairly clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 02:56 PM

"if I were an American who loved his country I'd be inclined to see it as a worrying wake-up call. "
There are plenty of wake up calls and there is plenty of outcry. This incident does not automatically fit in that catagory until all the facts are discovered. It is certainly not something to forget, but before passing judgement there are questions that are awaiting answers.


"However life was made very difficult for these visitors, without a need for trying. "
Well, I am not sure if that is a true statement. Granted they had a strong reaction to the circumstances, but your commment makes an assumption. Was it their treatment or their reaction to the circumstances that is the issue?   We know that they were photographed, given a medical inspection,and spent the night and part of a day inside a group care home. Contrary to your OPINION, we do not know all the facts and should not rush to judgement.

I am sure that there routines in your country that I would consider barbaric and and inhumane and and would be appalled at being subjecte to. Without understanding the facts and the culture, a similar reaction could occur.   

For all you know, this exact scenario could take place to an American family visiting your country. Other than making assumptions, there is no proof without asking questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: skarpi
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 03:14 PM

?? where did my post go ???

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: skarpi
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 03:33 PM

I was gona say in the post , witch is gone somehow , was

that I have no problem about not visit US at all , I may go somewhere
else where the goverment treat me as a human being, not a Terrorist .
Your goverment see terrorist in every corner.


Since its launch in January, the US-VISIT program has helped DHS and DOS officials intercept more than 200 persons with prior or suspected criminal or immigration violations. These included convicted rapists, drug traffickers, individuals convicted of credit card fraud, a convicted armed robber and numerous immigration violators and individuals attempting visa fraud.


Emma , are they all Icelanders ???? :>)


All the best skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 03:42 PM

Skarpi - how did they treat YOU as a terrorist? What questions did they ask YOU that YOU objected to answering?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 03:48 PM

With all due respect to a close personal friend (Skarpi), he does not live in a country that had a terrorist cell make a number of attempts on the WTC, finally succeeding and killing several thousand people. Around the world, various folks asked what one expected with the lax security. We have been the targets for years, and this event crystallized the need for a different, more stringent set of security procedures.   I maintain that given the attack, we did a pretty good job of still allowing visitors. I would ask my Brit friends how they would have felt, after the Harrah's bombing and other attacks, if their country had not instituted special security procedures?

Sure we make mistakes, we may have in this incident. But all of you sterling debaters out there ought to use empiric data instead of demagogic stories. As I said, I am sure I can find horror stories for tourists in each of your countries.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 03:55 PM

"I am sure that there routines in your country that I would consider barbaric and and inhumane and and would be appalled at being subjected to."

If there are I would be very angry at that happening and would want to see a fuss made about it. Partly because visitors deserve better, but also because if procedures seem barbaric and inhumane to a visitor, they probably feel barbaric and inhumane to other people who have to use the services in question.

And I would want to see our people apologise to you for it, and thank you for bringing it to light.

I'm still puzzled - you say you don't accuse Yvonne Bray and her daughters of lying but then you object to the suggestion that the way they were treated was very difficult for them, even though that was what they actually said.

As you said - "cultural differences". I wouldn't argue with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: skarpi
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 04:03 PM

I am not doing little out of everything that has been done
by the Terrorist Mick , not at all , but how likely are
the Icelandic people to do a Terrorist thing in US ???

Iceland is sometimes called the little America , why ? becouse we have
alot of things from US , and behave alot like you .

there is no change Mick , we are and will be friends
of the people in US , but we do not agree with the man who you have on the bridge today in WDC .


Now you welcomed me last time I was in US and I thank you dearly for that Mick , and the police at the airport
they were very nice to me , that is the way it should be .


and I surely hope its going to be that way when I am In US in October :>) :>)

All the best from Iceland

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: skarpi
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 04:10 PM

Ron , I am not a terrorist and I never will be , and this was not about me , was it ?

it was about those women , right ?


When arriving US 2005 in November :
I was
asked , in the Baltimore international airport , what are you doing in US : playing music I said ,

how long are you staying ? : five days I said ,

well enjoy your stay and be very welcome to the US , that was the
word from the airport police .

I hope I answaerd you question Ron

All the best Skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 04:26 PM

" I am not a terrorist and I never will be , and this was not about me , was it ?


You entered yourself into the discussion when you said "I have no problem about not visit US at all , I may go somewhere else where the goverment treat me as a human being" which led me to ask you how you were treated. From your later answer, it soudns as if you had no problem entering. Which leads me to my previous statement, that not everyone is treated like a terrorist - which several people in this discussion have made the insinuation.

"you say you don't accuse Yvonne Bray and her daughters of lying but then you object to the suggestion that the way they were treated was very difficult for them"
That is not what I said at all. IF you read my posts, you will note that I say their reaction was genuine - however there is a question as to whether their treatment was especially harsh. They felt it was, and I am not questioning their reaction. I am questioning whether the intent was to be harsh or whether their understanding of the procedures may have added to their discomfort.

Among the unasked and unanswered questions are- when the mother allowed someone to take the daughters, what rights did she give away? Did she understand that she was giving the rights of legal guardian to someone else - was that even what happened? As legal guardians, was the ACS in their rights to check on their condition, ascertain if there was any illness or physical abuse, make sure they were kept safe, etc?   

If you can't separate their reaction from the act, there is no point having this discussion.

McGrath - I don't know if this is common in your country, but I have been led to understand that it is quite common for parents to leave their children in a stroller outside of a store or a restaurant when they go inside. I find that appaling and barbaric and a sign of poor parenting.   I also understand that it is quite common in your country for people to allow cats to roam free outdoors. Many people in my country would find that barbaric. I'm sure if you and I ever get a chance to sit down for a beer (I'm buying), we could find other instances where one culture differs significantly from others.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 04:29 PM

Skarpi, my friend, you will always be welcome in my home. And the chances of an Icelander being a terrorist are not high, but that is precisely why we must be consistent. If one were a terrorist and were looking for a place to enter, they often choose places that pose the least threat. I believe my country has gone overboard on this stuff, but I object to the ganging on that always occurs in these discussions from folks with a bias. It is the old "mote in my eye and tree in yours" thing. And it does nothing to resolve problems, but it does make the naysayers feel like they have worth.

The USA, for years, has had much more lax rules regarding visitors to our country than most countries in the world. I find it odd that folks from those countries use individual incidents such as these to immediately go into finger pointing mode. And they always tell us what lovely folks we are, its just our government they don't like. I could say the same thing about the British people and the British Parliament, or any number of other governments. I just don't see the point in it.

BTW, Skarpi mein, if you decide to visit me this year, it will be tough. I now live 750 miles (1200+ kilometres)west of where you stayed. But I will see you at Getaway and we will share a drink, a smile, and many songs.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: skarpi
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 04:47 PM

LOL Mick Skál , and we shall sing some songs .


Ron I am sorry I misunderstood in that one :>)

All the best skarpi Iceland ,

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 05:11 PM

The point in question was about "routines in your country that I would consider barbaric and and inhumane and and would be appalled at being subjected to". You aren't a strolling cat and you aren't a baby in a pushchair, so those particular examples are not really relevant in this context.

I repeat, if you as a visitor was treated by the authorities in a way that you felt was barbaric and inhumane that would be wrong. If it turned out that ordinary people in the country were being treated in the same way, perhaps because of some unconsidered bureaucratic procedure, that would just make it worse. And as I said, you'd deserve to be thanked for bringing the situation to public attention, because that way it might get changed.

And I hope that that is in fact the way most Americans would react to this affair. As the saying goes, "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 05:18 PM

Actually, Kevin, you don't get to set, or shift, the predicate of the discussion. The predicate was defined by the opening post/title of thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 05:30 PM

I think it's a good idea to ignore posts by people who don't want anything more than to see the worst in others and to find things they can fight about. I'm going to ignroe 'the usual suspects'.

Skarpi, I feel like there's an active attempt by our current administration to reduce our contact with citizens of other countries. It's hard to get into the US and US citizens must now have passports to get into places we never previously needed them. It might be about terrorism, but I believe it goes farther than that. I hope I'm wrong.

This case though illustrates how incompetent bureaucracies are at dealing with situations that aren't 'business as usual'. Kids who need a place to stay because mom is hospitalized get the exact same treatment as kids that are put into foster care because their crack addict mom gets busted and sent to jail. I understand WHY it happened - inflexibility - but I don't believe it's right. Why the intake procedures are so inflexible is another whole discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 05:39 PM

" you as a visitor was treated by the authorities in a way that you felt was barbaric and inhumane that would be wrong."

IF it were true that the treatment was barbaric, inhumane or a violation of my rights. There is still a question as to whether their treatment was wrong or whether they had a bad reaction to their treatment. Having a bad reaction does not make them wrong, nor does it mean that I don't believe them.

None of us on this forum have enough information or background to make an accurate judgement. We have opinions, perhaps some personal experiences to draw on, but we are not in a position to pass definitive judgement.

McGrath - I'm sorry you failed to see the relevance of the examples I gave and chose to dismiss them. That speaks volumes.

Jeri - I don't know if it is fair to say that the children of crack addict moms get abused because of their parents sins. You are right about incompetent bureaucracies being inflexible, but again we do not have all the facts to be 100% certain in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 05:47 PM

The predicate was defined by the opening post/title of thread.

Precisely so: Is this how you treat kids in New York? Which is what I see as the essential question - is the treatment that was experienced by these visitors as so distressing actually an indication of the way poor people in a similar situation get treated by the authorities?

Because unless the Brays were telling fibs about what happened, and unless what happened was somehow someone-off cock-up which doesn't reflect the way the system normally works, what they experienced is just not good enough.

I'd like to believe that in fact it was just some monumental cock-up. But nobody seems to be suggesting that it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 06:01 PM

"Because unless the Brays were telling fibs about what happened, and unless what happened was somehow someone-off cock-up which doesn't reflect the way the system normally works, what they experienced is just not good enough. "

You are seeing this as black or white, but there might be other shades at play. Again, we do not know because questions have not been asked or answered.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 06:07 PM

There are no alleged facts that differ materially from those reported by the BBC. Are we really bothered whether one refers to "Queens'" or to "Queen's"? The reportage makes it plain that two girls were taken from their mother when she was defenceless against preventing that from happening. They were then treated in an oppressive fashion. This was by those apparently charged with their welfare. There is no reportage or evidence of any allegations to the contrary.

But there is an attempt to hide behind a fanciful idea that there might be some other truth.

I typed quite a bit more, but then deleted it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 06:14 PM

If cat owners and parents feel safer in some parts of the world than in others that is interesting, but I would suggest it is more likely to be a reflection of differences in the environment than in their level of committment.

However that is a different discussion which really doesn't belong in this thread.

If the way that a public service is experienced by someone subjugated to it as inhumane and barbaric, the prima facie assumption has to be that it is in fact inhumane and barbaric. If it should be the case that the behaviour experienced in this way is in fact normal practice, this may indeed make the actions of officials concerned less blameworthy, but it does not make the practices more acceptable, quite the other way round.

There's a lighter side to most things - I loved the bit about the officials asking the girls if they belonged to any gangs, only to getbteh respopnse "I'm a member of Appledore library."

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 06:23 PM

"There are no alleged facts that differ materially from those reported by the BBC. "
PROBLEM #1 - it appears they were not in an "orphanage" as the beloved BBC reported.
PROBLEM #2 - When were they in Harlem?

"The reportage makes it plain that two girls were taken from their mother when she was defenceless against preventing that from happening."
PROBLEM #3 - "defenceless". The mother gave consent. The question (unasked by the beloved BBC) was about what that consent entailed. Were the rights explained? We don't know because the beloved BBC failed to ask.

"They were then treated in an oppressive fashion." By their definition. You weren't there, neither was I. Was it really oppressive?

"But there is an attempt to hide behind a fanciful idea that there might be some other truth."
You wish to deny that there might be some other truth so you simply ignore the questions.

This is become as fruitful as argueing with a brick wall. You have made up your minds and wish to see the world through blinders. Enjoy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 06:51 PM

This is become as fruitful as argueing with a brick wall.

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 07:58 PM

" It really comes down to cultural differences, as Kevin pointed out--most of us, at least the ones who have lived in big American cities, know better than to go to the ER of a city hospital with a health issue--it's the place to be if you've been shot, or hit by a semi, but if you're feeling a little off, you're put in the back of the line--"

That's a vicious piece of blaming-the-victim. I have lived for a couple of years in a large US city. If I had a condition like pneumonia that could kill me within, hours where the hell *else* could I go? I never encountered such a place. Maybe there's one you could go to in NYC if you had access to some secret knowledge and had a bunch of rich and influential friends, but how many *Americans* would be able to come up with a better alternative?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 08:15 PM

Ron-
The fact is that, despite a fallen dollar which makes visits to the US
an unprecedented bargain for visitors, tourism to the US has decreased drastically, while tourism to other places has gone up.
I've traveled abroad, and I'll flatly say that the treatment of people entering the US is markedly ruder, more officious and unfriendly than that of people going to, say, England.

Our system of "defence" against terrorists has been demonstrated to be ineffective; it's also demonstrated to be irritating and obnoxious.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 08:25 PM

Dick - I don't disagree with your point, yet Scarpi had a pleasant experience and I am not sure he is alone.   I'm not sure if we can generalize and each of us have different experiences.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 08:47 PM

You know, Dick, I have travelled a bit myself. Post 9/11 there surely is a difference, but not markedly so. I don't disagree that the systems put in place are not the most effective, but there had to be some response. But my point in this thread is that the same old group of USA naysayers jump on this type of thing as if somehow it could never happen in their own countries. I think that is a load of hogwash.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 10:36 PM

Don't convince me,convince those ill-informed furriners who are staying away in droves.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 12:45 AM

First off "child services" in the US does suck. My wife's been associated with their work for the past 25 yrs. & it's getting worst not better. DSS is more of a threat than an aid to the family unit, both towards the children & paarents. It seems they can't ever get out of their own way & heads never roll.
What should've happened didn't. Many hospitals are step up with facilities to accomadate overnight relations. My wife stayed with me at Mass General whenever she liked. We were offered local housing for my family, at no cost, we declined not needing it. These kids could've/should've been better cared for, no matter what the truth is. They were victimized, no matter what the stories are, even if just a little part is correct. I see no reason to not believe their tale but that's not the point. Even a gang of headbangers would've treated their pry with better sense. They were treated worst than pets being brought into this country & it is a mirror image of our society.
Get all patriotic about it if you want but check out in he movie "Sicko" & how our ill were treated in Cuba then think about how they were treated here in the US. Same mirror, same society, same shame-on US.
Heads should roll just for the sake of damage control, never mind for the better causes of supporting a more decent policy. Yes it's a shame they were streamlined into a sick & faulty system but it wasn't their fault in the first place that the system was broken, they should've never even came close to that system's doors. Don't blame the victim when it's the fault of the system & the society they enter into unknowingly. When I'm in Rome I do as the Romans but I don't expect to be feed to the lions just because I'm in breech of a medical mishap.

Any way you look at this, this is in no way, no part the fault of the visitors, they should've been better cared for, espically because they were foriegn to our ways. They're luck they spoke the same lanaguge, if they spoke Polish they may have been tazered to death at the airport upon entry, they were probaly lucky to come away with their lives never mind escaping possible rape.

Look at it from Sharpi's position, or from a Polish viewpoint or from the view of any Mid Easterner. I wouldn't fly into this country if I lived elsewhere & had a choice of here or some other place. I feel creeped out when I fly "within" this country never mind flying in or out & I was born & raise here, know the culture & am extremely 'streetwise'.

I'd put the heads of those who were responsible on pikes, unless of course every bit of this story was fiction. If just a bit of this proves true I'd be out for blood & I'd be quick about it too, & I'd be dam sure to make sorry amends to the family & see that they were so well taken care of that they'd be poster children for becoming citizens.

This was criminal!!!!!!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 01:12 AM

I wasn't blaming the victim, Jack--I was pointing something out about the hospitals--you pretty much have to know where to go, and where not to go, which an out-of-towner, whether she, you, or me, would not.

In case it isn't clear, none of us are very happy that things are like this--both the health care system and the Child Welfare system, are at times apalling. We hear stories like this every day. Unfortunately, these are longstanding and bitterly argued political issues, with no solutions in sight.

Any of us here, and a million more besides, would have taken them in, helped them out, and, before it was over, made sure they got to visit the Statue of Liberty--but no one knew, and, as our politicians are fond of saying, they slipped through the cracks.

We are all sorry. I hope that's clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 01:43 AM

And another thing that troubles me is that no one in the hospital reached out to help--no nurse, doctor, chaplin, social worker--bottom line is, none of them would have turned their own children over to ACS in the same situation--

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 08:15 AM

Ron - you say that the mother voluntarily handed the children over to the authorities. What choice did she have?

She was hospitalised with a life threatening illness.

She knew no-one in the country.

She was told that the children could not stay at the hospital.

Given those factors what could she do?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 09:20 AM

Why do we always believe the newpapers to be right? Embroidered stories make money

Sal

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 09:32 AM

"you say that the mother voluntarily handed the children over to the authorities. What choice did she have?"

What choice did the state have? Let the girls roam free? Put the repsonsibility for their care on the hospital? Their job is to care for the sick, not babysit.

What really happened to the girls? They were put in a group home, made to take a shower in what was surely a humiliating experience, given standard-issue clothes to wear,photographed, and asked questions to determine if there were any problems.   Based on their story, it must have been scary as hell, but was it a violation of human rights? I don't think there is a court in the world that would send anyone to jail based on those facts.

The point is, none of us know for sure. I agree with Barry and M.Ted, the kids should have been offered a room at the hospital, but it appears that was not an option.   That might be the real story here, not a violation of human rights.   We managed to squeeze in diatribes about Homeland Security, INS and other issues that do not pertain to the few facts that we have been given in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 10:15 AM

The problem here seems to be the lack of individual attention to the circumstances leading up to the children having to be taken into care. This affects not only those two girls but any child taken into care.

From what has been given out it sounds as if, whatever the reason for care, the same stock treatment is meted out to the child. If that is the case there is surely something seriously wrong with the system as a whole.

These kids were already in a traumatic situation, alone in a foreign country, with their mother having to be hospitalised and with no-one else to help them. any competent person dealing with children would surely have known to treat them with more sympathy than appears to be the case.

They should, at least, have been allowed to visit their mother in hospital. that they were not makes me think that little attention is given to the needs of the child in the system.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 10:38 AM

"The problem here seems to be the lack of individual attention to the circumstances leading up to the children having to be taken into care. "

That is probably true, but have you ever visited a hospital in NYC? How can you provide individual attention to all the cases? You mention that the children should have been allowed to visit their mother. Probably true (although it was only 24 hours or there abouts) but providing transportation services could pose problems.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you say in your last post Jacqui, but dealing with the reality of not only the system but the number of people requiring such services is staggering.

You made a very good point - this affects not only these two girls but any child going through the system.   Someone earlier made a comment that they were treated like the children of a crack mother. Isn't there something to be said that there are few stories about such children and when a couple of tourists have to face their reality, everyone is repulsed. Where is the anger and outrage at the system for those who face it every day of their lives?   

Again, we still do not have all the facts and we are only reacting on preconceived notions - notions that are fed by a media that as Ms. Lemon pointed out is only interested in making money, or paid for by the government as is the case with the BBC.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 10:45 AM

Well, there's a bit more of a write-up available now in which the girls said it was an interesting experience just not what they expected of their trip, and that everyone turned out to be really nice: CLICK HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 11:08 AM

Ron - the BBC is paid for by TV license holders, not the government. If you own a TV in the UK you have to pay a license fee, collected by the government, for the service, whether you watch BBC or not.

My view on this incident is that every child should be dealt with according to their individual circumstances and thought should be given in every case to the trauma that has resulted in this children being placed in care. In New York it does not seem that this is happening.

Children are the most valuable resource that we have. Treating them well is the most important thing that we can do for the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 11:45 AM

"Where is the anger and outrage at the system for those who face it every day of their lives?

I'm sorry if I didn't make it clearer, Ron, but that was precisely what I have been on about in my posts which evidently so annoyed you.

"this affects not only these two girls but any child going through the system."

And that is exactly the point. It's not a matter of harsh treatment being handed out to visitors because they are foreign, and I don't think anyone has suggested it was. What appears to have happened is that this family, through no fault of their own, found itself relying on on the system which existed to meet the needs of New York's poorest and most vulnerable citizens. And it just didn't measure up.

Incidentally it appears that this wasn't a case of the Brays getting into difficulties because they hadn't got insurance or something like that - they had insurance which was supposed to cover medical emergencies and so forth. Maybe there was some small print...

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 12:15 PM

"the BBC is paid for by TV license holders, not the government."

My error. I do understand that the government actually complains that the BBC is biased. I admit that I don't know the British media that well, but I have been led to believe that there are not many independent sources for news in the UK.   While we deal with the crap fed to us by FOX here in the U.S., we do have a number of alternate sources and independents such as Pacifica to draw upon and make our own conclusions.

McGrath - what really annoyed me about your posts is that you were not showing outrage for the system as it effects everyone, you were showing outrage in one particular case as REPORTED by a news organization that did not fully cover the story. I was saying all along that the system is suspect, but that is never a reason to draw a conclusion until all the facts are in. I believe in questioning authority, but that does not mean we should automatically NOT question those who are not in authority. People have knee jerk reactions to sensational stories and never bother to step back and look at other potential reasons.

Ask questions, keep the bastards honest!

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 12:32 PM

Maybe that was another case of cultural difference, Ron in the way I expressed myself. I did think I'd made it clear about that (eg "if procedures seem barbaric and inhumane to a visitor, they probably feel barbaric and inhumane to other people who have to use the services in question.")

Anyway I hope that's cleared up now.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 02:13 PM

I think it is part cultural, and part that both of us were talking over each others head and not listening to one another - or interpreting as we saw fit. Your comments were not clear to me in context of the rest of your post, but I should have asked questions.

I'm just as guilty of not listening to my own preaching! That is why we continue to learn! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 02:17 PM

Anyone here ever been in NYC and had no place to stay?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 04:16 PM

I note the silence on katlaughing's post and believe it speaks volumes.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 05:07 PM

"I note the silence on katlaughing's post and believe it speaks volumes."

You mean the one at 27 Jan 08 - 10:45 AM, Mick?

I can't see it was a post that really calling for comments, though the story was interesting enough (allowing for the fact that the Daily Mail is more or less the equivalent of your Fox News in general).

"They also had some great fun tales of all the other girls that they had met" is just what you'd expect," - no doubt true, - and it's just what you would expect an English mum to take some pride in saying, partly because it says a lot for the gumption of the girls in a difficult situation.

The slightly barbed quote "The girls had an interesting insight into the life of a 'removed' child in New York City" rather ties in with the point I'd been making, about the real significance of this being as a kind of (unflattering) litmus test of the quality of an aspect of social services in New York.

I'm sure someone somewhere is working on a screenplay based on this incident. Probably with Dawn French as the mum...

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 05:09 PM

"I note the silence on katlaughing's post and believe it speaks volumes."

You mean the one at 27 Jan 08 - 10:45 AM, Mick?

I can't see it was a post that really calling for comments, though the story was interesting enough (allowing for the fact that the Daily Mail is more or less the equivalent of your Fox News in general).

"They also had some great fun tales of all the other girls that they had met" - no doubt true - and it's just what you would expect an English mum to take some pride in saying, partly because it says a lot for the gumption of the girls in a difficult situation.

The slightly barbed quote "The girls had an interesting insight into the life of a 'removed' child in New York City" rather ties in with the point I'd been making, about the real significance of this being as a kind of (unflattering) litmus test of the quality of an aspect of social services in New York.

I'm sure someone somewhere is working on a screenplay based on this incident. Probably with Dawn French as the mum...

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 06:59 PM

"and it's just what you would expect an English mum to take some pride in saying, partly because it says a lot for the gumption of the girls in a difficult situation."

where are my hipboots? It is getting deep in here.

"the real significance of this being as a kind of (unflattering) litmus test of the quality of an aspect of social services in New York."
or anywhere for that matter. Why is there reason to believe it is better in the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 07:47 PM

Yes, I've been in NYC with no place to stay, a few times, as a very streetwise teen. As an adult, I'd not consider being in NYC without a place to stay, I don't believe I'd likey want to set up a tent in Central Park either. Are they're any other questions you'd like to ask beyond that?

It's about 2 things.
1) It's about a faulty, failed & broken system that services the poor & needy in a miserly & miserable way, with no sight of future improvement or care.
2) It's about how an innocent, visitor, vacationer, foriegner, or other persons not intended to be "serviced by the system" could get so easily swept up into it.

It's a bit like when Senator Kennedy was refused boarding on a number of flights because he was on a 'no-fly' list intended to keep suspected terrorists or risks off airplanes. It took him a a number of attemps before he could get his name removed & he's a Senator with clout & name recognition. If it were you or me we likely never be able to fly again & no one would give a shit that our ability to travel was uncalled for.
When these miscarrages come to light it is the time to spotlight it before it goes back under cover & is only resurfaced again when the unjustice is once again repeated. If we do not jump on these flaws & correct them we are quilty of what those with a bias do say about us & they have every right to say & repeat their statements about us, and they have every reason to fear & to stay away & deceied that it's better that they visit elsewhere. We become what others think we are when it happens often enough. We become an aggressive & war mongering people when we do not stop the behavior of a few who'd give US a bad rep if we don't jump up & stop the behavior. In this day & age we are looked upon by the world in a very poor light, we don't need that light to grow dimmer still.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 07:50 PM

Have you read anything in the UK news that would make you think Ron, that it is as bad there as it is here? Maybe it is, has any of our fellow catters brought up the issue? I wouldn't think it as bad unless I've heard otherwise.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 07:54 PM

I don't think it would in fact happen quite like that in the UK, largely because our system of public health care and social services is significantly different. I imagine there is a fair amount of variation in how the kind of crisis would have been responded to in different opaets of the USA.

There are plenty of situations where things go wrong here too, they just aren't quite the same situations. I doubt if anything like that would happen to a family of English speaking tourists - if it was a matter of a family of asylum seekers with no English I can imagine some comparable failings.

When failings are brought to light which screw up people's lives I think that is very valuable, in any country or any system.
.................
"where are my hipboots? It is getting deep in here" I'm afraid you lost me there. Not to worry.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 08:58 PM

If he had said 'wellies' instead of hip boots-

Ok, I'm leaving. I think everything has been said steam-dozen times.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 09:13 PM

The hipboots are to wade through the bullshit.

You were playing spin doctor and making it sound like an English trait to be superior in face of adversity, when the reality appears to be is that the story was not as horrible as first thought.

Barry - I read one story, so far, about an incident in New York at ACS. There may be others. I live in the area. It is not any better or worse than conditions elsewhere. McGrath is doing the same in his last post where he "imagines" that things could not be the same.

I'm sorry, but the media has warped perception. People are choosing to believe what fits their own sense of reality. NYC is not a slime pit that treats visitors horribly as a rule. I believe there are something like 15 million people who live in the metro area, and millions more who visit the area annually. The services need improvement, but the perception that we are living in horrid conditions and treating people like crap.   IT is not reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 06:22 AM

100 !

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 07:11 AM

Congratulations Leadfingers on what I think is the best post on this thread after Sinsull's waaaaay back at the very beginning which I figured had summed it all up right away. Granted, she could have fleshed it out a bit but she had the essence of it by the balls.

Yours was nice too, but second to hers. The rest were uh, yeah.................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 08:34 AM

Aren't we both using our imagination about things beyond our personal experience Ron?

And in saying stuff like "NYC is not a slime pit that treats visitors horribly as a rule" you are going way beyond what anyone has suggested to be the case.

In this case a crisis which could on the face of it have been sorted out perfectly easily and satisfactorily with a bit of common sense was apparently dealt with in a bureaucratic and clumsy way. Fortunately no major harm was done. However in the process some hard questions have been raised about about the quality of some of the basic services in one city in the USA.

Analogous things could have happened in other places, including here in the UK,and that might have shown up analogous failings. But circumstances differ from one place to another, and so do the way people respond to these circumstances.

And there's really no need to get too worked up about any of this. Nobody is saying anything like New York is "a slime pit that treats visitors horribly as a rule". In fact the closest anyone has got to saying that was perhaps Ron, when he wrote "our health care sucks and social services suck and hospitals suck". I'd say of out health and social services that they are a good way short of what they should be - maybe that actually means a similar level of criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 08:50 AM

McGrath - I guess I'm just not being clear.   I think social services suck, plain and simple. The tone of this entire thread (Is this how you treat kids in New York?) has given the IMPRESSION that New York is a completely awful city. Re-read the posts and if you think that hasn't been suggested, then we differ on what we read.

As it turns out, this case does appear to an over-reaction to a stressful situation. It brings to light issues that need to be addressed and shows ways the system can be improved, but at the end of the day it appears that there was no inhumane treatment given.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 08:54 AM

But I am saying that there seems to be a hard core who will dismiss any news adverse to the USA as biased. The Daily Mail is a laugh a minute - unless you'd rather cry. The old adage:

The Times is read by the people who run the country.
The Telegraph is run by the people who think they ought to run the country.
The Mail is read by the people who fear that the country is not run as it used to be. (The above two are largely interchangeable but the Mail is even less well informed and even less rational)
THe Guardian is read by the people who think they know how the country ought to be run
The Sun and the Star are read by people who don't care who runs the country so long as they get their tits out for the lads.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 08:56 AM

Yes, we differ on what we read. I suspect ("imagine") we probably don't actually differ too much on what we believe. As indicated by the fact that I wholly agree with your last paragraph.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: GUEST,Shy of giving a name
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 08:59 AM

This is a shocking story!
As far as I can tell both the children, and their mother, feel that they were abused. What worries me is that it appears that the social services were simply following normal procedure. One wonders how many young people go through this ordeal each week and whose feelings are not taken in to account, and whose stories are not told.
If a child feels abused, or violated the feelings will usually stay with them throughout adult life. It dosen't matter if what happened is a "Standard Procedure". Abuse is a wide ranging thing and people should really listen to children more.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 09:08 AM

.... and I maintain that these same types of situations could likely be found in any large city in the world. Kevin responded to kat's post only after having it pointed out to him that no one was responding to the post which demonstrated, as Ron said, an unfortunate situation that needs to be looked into. It appears to me that there are folks that will miss no opportunity to criticize the US, yet never look at their own circumstance in the same way. I understand we are a big target, and that our policies under this administration have damaged us, but it seems to me that if we are truly attempting to be progressive in our views, we would curb these gratuitous types of criticisms.

Years ago, when I came to Mudcat (1998), I spouted a lot of the rhetoric about "Brits" and "England" that many Irish Americans did. Through the discussions on this forum, I learned much about the English, and the situation. I wouldn't say that I changed much of my view about what must happen in the North of Ireland for justice to finally be served, what I did learn is that things are not as black and white as I would have liked to believe, and that English folks, and all the other Brits, often support the aspirations of the Irish, often are great fans of the culture, and don't deserve many of the acts perpetrated on them, and the prejudices and insults hurled upon them. I have come to view England and Great Britain as a place I can't wait to visit one day. You all helped me to get back in touch with the idea that working folks in Ireland (regardless of where they say their prayers) and in Great Britain have far more in common than they have differences. In short you were instrumental in reminding me not to paint with such broad strokes. Seems to me it is time for me to return the favor and remind you.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 09:23 AM

:: the BBC is paid for by TV license holders, not the government."
: My error. I do understand that the government actually complains that the BBC is biased.
: I admit that I don't know the British media that well, but I have been led to believe that
: there are not many independent sources for news in the UK.

The BBC gets a minority of TV viewers in the UK. A large minority, but the independent channels have been more popular for many years. (Probably not for news programmes, though - BBC news and current affairs has deteriorated since they privatized so much of their programme making but most people still find it better).

The BBC does better at radio. There is no national private network to compete with it, and all the independent local radio stations come across as a bit amateurish in comparison.

One bit of the BBC is paid for by the government - the World Service. I don't suppose Voice of America has to depend on advertising either.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 09:38 AM

"If a child feels abused, or violated the feelings will usually stay with them throughout adult life."

Very true, but everyone has a different reaction. For instance, there are people who obsess about a broken relationship where the rest of us would chalk it up to experience. I have a friend that pines for a girl he dated for two months in high school - 40 years ago! People learn to deal with situations or seek help. In this instance, person to shy to leave a name, I have feeling that you did not read the last news story that was printed from the Daily Mail. IF these quotes are true, it appears there was some over-reaction.

Contrary to Spaw's unusual opinion, I think that Mick's last post is the best of the bunch. Things are not black and white and too often we look for a definitive answer that just can't be there. We all have our bias and preconceived notion, and unwittingly we allow the media to feed our fears. That is what they do, they play to our reactions and create smokescreens that cover the real story. If we step back and question- rationally and without prejudice, we can often come to a better solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 09:51 AM

Mick, you accepted, it was not BBC who imposed the ban on Sinn Fein voices, but also they and the independent news services made a mockery of the ban by replacing the voices with those of actors saying the same words.
I really challenge your assertion that the reporting was biased.
Both sides thought it was biased against them.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 10:11 AM

Richard! Kindly rephrase. The Sun and the Star are read by people who don't care who runs the country so long as they get their tits out for the lads.

The Sun and the Star supported Thatcher. The mere thought, just after my lunch, nearly brought it all back to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 10:20 AM

As usual, Keith, we agree to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 10:22 AM

Any time a government imposes a ban that affects free speech, there is bias.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 10:34 AM

The ban was only on broadcasting the free speech, and that ban was circumvented.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 10:37 AM

BBC report on the restrictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 10:43 AM

Keith, please do not hijack the thread. Let us just agree to disagree. You have noted your opinion.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 01:32 PM

Gerry Adams once said (tongue in cheek, I suspect) that the actor who used to do his voice - Stephen Rea - sounded more like him than he did, but was often better at putting the words over. (And I don't think there was too much difference between Stephen and Gerry when it came to the issues the latter was talking about.)

While we're drifting , Mick's post a couple back set me thinking about the evident differences, alongside the similarities, between the way the Irish who went to America and the Irish who came to England tend to see many things. Much the same kind of opinions about what's happened in Ireland and what we'd like to see happen, but a different awareness of the complexities in the role and attitudes of "the English". But that's a matter for another thread maybe.

As for the main topic of the thread, I don't think there's really much general real difference between most of the people who've found themselves squaring up against each other. There's a servant in Goldsmith's She Stoops to Conquer who is ready enough to criticise his own employer himself, but won't allow anyone else to do so, and I have a feeling that notion is at the root of it, and it's not a bad notion either. But sometimes specific criticism can be interpreted as wider hostility when it isn't. (Which isn't to deny that sometimes wider hostility can mask itself as specific criticism.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 01:42 PM

Pretty astute observations there, Kevin.

Back to the subject at hand.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 05:17 PM

I was finished Mick, but I will remind you that it was not me who brought Sinn Fein and The Troubles into this thread.
You said that it showed the BBC were unreliable.
I hope I have shown that it does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 07:41 PM

You don't need the Sinn Fein example to show that the BBC is unreliable.

From what I've gathered from some of the posters here, all I need is one example and an imagination to determine that the BBC is unreliable and needs to be overhauled because they did not get all the facts in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 08:14 PM

OK, Keith, you go ahead and have the last word. There's a good lad.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Greg B
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 08:39 PM

Why hasn't anyone brought up Hitler yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 08:52 PM

You just did. Way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Greg B
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 10:48 PM

Someone had to do it :=)

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 01:23 PM

I wonder if this thread might have been better tempered if it been done above the line as a Song Challenge...

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 02:30 PM

Oh hell, the US has nothing on Canada. The RCMP in BC really have it in for the Poles and have managed to taser two in the last little while, for not speaking English or French and this is what we do to kids in protective custody of Child Services in this Province:

Don't kick your shoe off, you'll be put on a leash in a padded cell for 4 hours

At least the subsequent charge of assulting a matron was dropped after Crown Council saw the video.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 05:27 PM

I think the title of the thread was unfortunate and not very well chosen. If it had been worded differently it might not have elicited a defensive response from the Americans. I felt a little put out myself and I have no problem criticizing our politics, health care system, etc.   "Two British Girls' Nightmare in New York City Social Services", for example, would have been less destined to raise hackles than "Is this how you treat kids in New York". We all know there are serious problems with social services in our big cities - all over, in fact. But the title of the thread made it sound like New Yorkers are cruel to kids in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Greg B
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 07:04 PM

Ah, now someone's mentioned Poles. If we can just connect that with Hitler and Tasers...   sandwiching a couple of little English
schoolgirls between Hitler and high voltage electric shocks
might the right combination to keep the home fires burning...

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 07:52 PM

and padded cells and leashes.....don't forget the leashes. Best thing to do when a young girl manages to take her bra off and you don't get a peek.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this how you treat kids in New York?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 07:55 PM

Greg - do you have some sort of fascination about Hitler and school girls that you wish to share with the rest of the class?