BS: Caliphate

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:10 PM

My friend, Tarek Fatah, expounds on what constitutes an "Islamic State":

http://tarekfatah.com/what-in-the-world-is-an-islamic-state/

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:56 PM

"Shiites believe that leadership should have followed through descent from Ali; creating an early split."

Kinda reminds me of RC church believing that the Christian leadership should follow St. Peter through the Popes-cheating a later spilt and significant discord (even lots of bloodshed) with other Christians, who saw things differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 08:29 PM

Oops that was me, again, as guest. And I was hoping to get people here to give an answer...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:16 AM

The opening post:

"Subject: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 01:46 AM

Can they really just assert dominance over all moslems, and does that mean that the Palestinians actually have an islamic "home"land now?"


The answer: No

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:14 AM

Every religion has it's share of crazies. But they do not represent the majority of the faith.

I am a Christian. The Reverend Fred Phelps was also a Christian. (Allegedly) We didn't see eye to eye on much. Most Christians didn't see eye to eye with that jerk.

I knew a group of Iranian Muslims in college. They were very nice people, who dressed and behaved like the rest of us, except that they liked brighter colors, and they didn't drink alcohol. (Just very very very strong coffee.)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:50 AM

"Honestly, Jim, in the spirit of our rapprochement, you really have milked this one dry over 3 years of looking for another stick to beat Keith"
Sorry Mike, while Keith continues to post on the issue it remains an issue.
That he is the extremist he is is fine by me - there are lots of extremists in the world - thankfully they don't saturate the threads after thread of this forum with their extremism with a last-man-standing attitude until they crash to the ground in flames.
Nor do they use this forum as a competition in order to "win" something, or to declare themselves "infallible" and those who disagree "muppets"
Nor do they try to run this forum as if they owned it, telling the rest of us what is and what is nor relevant, or what right we have to comment on subjects because we "no longer live here", or we are "anti-British because we criticise her policies and politicians..... or all the other unpleasant tricks used to divert from intelligent discussion
I really am not interested in Keith's politics - I'm not sure what they are and I don't think he is fully - they are certainly not backed up with any fore-knowledge, so they seem not to inspire enough interest for him to have made any efforts read up on the subjects he declares himself "infallible" on.   
The vast majority of contributors here take part out of a genuine interest in the subjects - to Keith, it is a matter of "I win - you lose" - which fucks it up for everybody else over and over again - go and count how many times he has said exactly that, or how many times he had dominated the thread with his postings, or has been the last poster.
I enjoy discussions like these - I don't get a lot of them here in the wild west.
They help me keep in touch with things and stimulate me to follow them up.
I have learned a great deal from participating in them - mainly from people I don't necessarily agree with - and would not like to see more threads naused up by Keith's attention-seeking and (often self-declared) ignorance on subjects he knows s.f.a. about, but which interest me and others.
Taking part in these discussions with Keith present is like trying to carry on a serious conversation, with a precocious, attention-seeking child in the same room.
Also in the spirit of rapprochement, sometime you give the impression of a proud parent whose child can do no wrong - we rally do need to 'Talk About Kevin' - sorry, should have said Keith.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:02 AM

Sorry Mike, while Keith continues to post on the issue it remains an issue.

I do not, except to defend myself from your wild accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:18 AM

And to occasionally defend yourself from reason...

Sorry Keith, you have form and it isn't just Jim either.

Do you also defend "we" from the "left"?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:29 AM

Will you give an example of my "form?"
Of course not!
You can't.
Just more made-up Musket shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:45 AM

I keep telling you. Click on the hyperlink in blue saying Keith A of Hertford, and read what comes on your screen, clicking into the wit and wisdom therein.

Quite simple really.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 05:04 AM

Fine, Jim; I have no wish to be prescriptive. It has become a hobby of yours, and far be it from me...

I think I shall probably just stop following this particular sequence...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM

Me too (if not provoked otherwise)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:10 AM

Click on the hyperlink in blue saying Keith A of Hertford, and read what comes on your screen, clicking into the wit and wisdom therein.

Over thirteen thousand posts.
Not very helpful.

Please produce just ONE example of my "form."
Make it the very WORST example you can think of.

Will you?
OF COURSE NOT!

How could you when there are NONE!
It is all just more Musket made-up shit.

You are a hopeless liar Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:27 AM

In response to Lady Jean, I am an atheist, but attend church very occasionally to listen to our local minister deliver his sermon.
He is an intelligent if somewhat "ecclesiastical" man......I have never heard him condemn other religions, or those who practice other religions.

In fact, I have never heard or read anything of that nature from practicing Christians, all of whom are extremely tolerant, even of my well known atheism.

I have always tried to understand why some folks feel the need for spiritual support, and have learned a lot in the process, Christians on the whole, try to follow the teachings of Jesus.....they are good tolerant people.
Islamists are crazy dangerous fanatics.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:40 AM

"I am an atheist, but attend church very occasionally to listen to our local minister deliver his sermon."

There's a lot to be said for atheists attending church. I don't go but can see the attraction, I like the ritual (which I find comforting in its consistency) and who can resist a good sing-song? The fact I don't believe a word of it is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM

Regarding moderation, I think those who habitually lie or misrepresent in discussion, are a menace to the forum and will eventually destroy it.

There are many decent members who stay silent when these people attack, and I'm sorry to say it is often their political views that keep them silent.
This is short term reasoning, as the important thing is freedom of discussion.....and the golden rule is always tell the truth, do not use multiple handles to support your views, and avoid personal abuse.

The moderators do well, it must be almost impossible and so bloody boring to keep checking and deleting the shit. It's up to the membership to speak up whenever gross bad behaviour occurs, its OUR forum too. Forget politics, freedom of expression is much more important, you people from the US should know that!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:46 AM

"I have nev"eard him condemn other religions, or those who practice other religions."

I guess the good messages of the minister fell on infertile ground- (Possibly a good example of "doublespeak")?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:14 AM

Ed I don't know what you are trying to insinuate, but there are people here who are trying to equate the horrors perpetrated by "Islamists" all over the world to those who follow the Christian faith, or at least to maintain that Christians are just as bad.

This is evidently untrue, the "Islamists" practice terror against civilians ...women and children are routinely butchered, there are numerous examples above. They are completely deranged.
Only fools would claim that there is an similarity between Christians and "Islamists"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:21 AM

More doublespeak, Ake?
Orwell would "not" be proud of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:31 AM

No doublespeak Ed. Everything I have written is clear and verifiable.

I take it you disagree? well lets hear your point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:10 AM

"there are people here who are trying to equate the horrors perpetrated by "Islamists" all over the world to those who follow the Christian faith, or at least to maintain that Christians are just as bad.

This is evidently untrue, the "Islamists" practice terror against civilians ...women and children are routinely butchered, there are numerous examples above. They are completely deranged.
Only fools would claim that there is an similarity between Christians and "Islamists" - Akenaton

No truer words ever stated.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM

"Only fools would claim that there is an similarity between Christians and "Islamists""
I spent much of the 60s on the streets protesting about Christian America pouring burning petrol (napalm) and carcinogenic chemicals (Agent Orange) on South East Asian peasants, with the backing of much of the Christian world
A decade or so earlier, Christian America, with the backing of Christian Britain dropped two horrific weapons on two Japanese cities, the effects of which are still evident in newborn children.
During WW2, 'Hitler's Pope', Pius XII, looked the other way while Italy's Jews were being herded into the gas chambers.
Christian Spain allowed the Luftwaffe to practice its skill on the market-goers of Guernica
The same church, some a couple of decades earlier blessed the bombs which were destined for the people of Abyssinia
A few years earlier, Christian "Gallant Little Belgium" slaughtered 10 million Congolese in pursuit of rubber.... how far do you want to go back?
"War is hell" - I understand!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM

Let's see. Akenaton just said that all Christians are tolerant. He then says Islamists are dangerous fanatics.

What is the link between those two sentences?

Are Muslims as peaceful and tolerant as Christians then? Is there hope for you yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:43 AM

Actually, Ake, I spend very little time considering your one-dimentional, predictable and "sketchy" reasoning, as most if it I find quite simplistic in nature. While I am sympathitic that everyoes reasoning power is not objective and the same, I do find prejuduces ugly.

""We are least open to precise knowledge concerning the things we are most vehement about"" Eric Hoffer 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:45 AM

I believe many others likely noticed that example of "doublespeak" Musket. But, anyway, thanks for pointing it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:59 AM

Is there an equivalent to Islamism in any other religion?

Most Muslims are indeed tolerant people.
Islamists are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:01 AM

I wasn't pointing it out to people, I was pointing it out to Akenaton as I do not think he has the intelligence to notice how his blind prejudice comes out.

Tell you what, I shall take his comment at face value and ask how Christians can ALL be tolerant when both Anglican and RC sects don't see gay people as equal. When women are barred from high office. When they fight attempts to lift Sunday trading restrictions so normal people have to suffer for their hobby.

Oh, and the murdering gangs in Uganda and CAR who rape and pillage in the name of their religion every bit as much as Islamist fanatics do in theirs. Not to mention the US baptist churches bank rolling the Ugandan politicians who tried to introduce capital punishment for being gay.

There are many good people on this planet. Statically, many of them are practicing Christians and Muslims. But neither can ignore the bad apples claiming affinity and neither religion is tolerant till every person regardless of their status has a chance at equal membership. A plague on both their houses.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:29 AM

"Is there an equivalent to Islamism in any other religion?"

CHRISTIAN TERRORISM

JEWISH DEFENCE LEAGUE

BOSNIAN GENOCIDE

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:38 AM

Yes Keith. I name it Christianism. It was starting to die out as people in The West became less superstitious and felt self conscious pretending to believe in make believe.

However, chiefly through advertising itself in areas of ignorant shit kickers, in particularly areas of Baptist strongholds in Dumbfuckistan, it became popular again. Indeed, you can't become President of the land of the free without claiming allegiance to it.

The most nasty elements are where they can practice their medieval traits such as Uganda.

I believe their slogan is contained in a call to arms song, and is "Christ thy right."




Easy isn't it? And no different to some of the Islamaphobia on this and countless other threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 10:10 AM

I did not just mean bad people Musket you old chump.

Islamism is dedicated to the overthrow of democracy and the imposition on all people by force of Islamic rule under extreme, medieval Sharia Law.

Is there an equivalent movement in any other religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:08 AM

Rather than promote prejudice and hate towards those in other religions, Ghandi reached out to people of all religions, including Muslims (aks islamists).


Mahatma Gandhi's struggle against religious fanaticism.  

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM

"Gandhi required Muslims to recognize that Islam like any other religion was neither the whole truth nor nothing but the truth."

" When some women were stoned to death in Afghanistan for allegedly committing adultery, Gandhi criticized it, saying that "this particular form of penalty cannot be defended on the ground of its mere mention in the Koran." and he added, "every formula of every religion has in this age of reason to submit to the acid test of reason and universal justice if it is to ask for universal assent."

Islamists would kill him for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:20 AM

including Muslims (aks islamists).

NO!!
Muslims ARE NOT also known as Islamists.
That is a very ignorant and dangerous lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:25 AM

"Islamism is dedicated to the overthrow of democracy"
As are many of the groups names above
The U.S. hasn't been above sending in the Marines to overthrow democratically elected governments and even Mrs T described the dictator who murdered the democratically elected Allende as a fine example of democracy.
The U.S. has supplied arms, equipment and intelligence to overthrow democratically elected governments.
The whole Islamist mess came about because of the West's backing fundamentalists like rather than nationally approved leaders.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:29 AM

Ed, sorry.
Misconception not lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:31 AM

Is there any other religious group dedicated to the destruction of all and any democracy Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:54 AM

Definitions are difficult, when Muslims are members of Islam.

Islamist is "a set of ideologies holding that "Islam should guide social and political as well as personal life."
---
"Islamists generally oppose the use of the term, claiming their political beliefs and goals are simply an expression of Islamic religious belief. Similarly, some experts favor the term activist Islam or political Islam and some have equated the term militant Islam with Islamism.."

From Islamism, an article in Wikipedia.

Shouting about your particular usage is childish.

Also childish are the stupid he said/didn't say arguments, gone over and over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

Thanks for shouting down the suggestion that Muslims are Islamists Keith. I did notice.

In objective answer to your question, I would point out two things, and the second flows from the first;

Islamism is not a set doctrine. There are many people taking up arms in many different countries and calling themselves or being labelled islamist. Some complain about the others in a macabre "Peoples' Popular Front of Judea" stance. The aims are similar, the structure to follow are very different...

It is therefore a matter of numbers, in which there are Christian equivalents, and we don't need to look at Crusades or Inquisition to find it. When a Bishop declares he answers to a higher authority when commenting on equality law. When American Baptist organisations fund attempts to make being gay a capital offence in Uganda, when they and similar movements bomb abortion clinics and murder healthcare professionals working in them.

They just don't have the numbers, that's all. They claim they are real Christians and that you aren't. An Islamic version of Bobad would possibly quote them as representing all Christians judging by his track record.

In any event, the term Islamism, being two letters away from Islamic and confusingly meaning the same in pure word structure terms, was purposely coined in order to make links between terrorists and normal people. hence I and many others scorn the term. No problem with another word, call them apricots if you like. But if scum can confuse paedophile and paediatrician, it doesn't take much for them to invoke the word Muslim when thinking terrorist.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:25 PM

"Islamist was purposely coined in order to make links between terrorists and normal people."

Who coined the term and definition? Source?

The term started out innocently enough in articles 1993-2003, mostly denoting political Islam.

Then came the series of articles and diatribes in the press, notably one in Newsweek by a Hayri Abaza, Is it Islamic or Islamist ? (10-22-10)
The use of Islamist for the radical, extremists was endorsed, but Abaza also pointed out that the public would be confused, not grasping (his and others) distinction between Islamic and Islamist.

Perhaps radical should be added as a modifier; radical Islamist.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:45 PM

Is there any other religious group dedicated to the destruction of all and any democracy Jim?"
Are there any specific groups dedicated to the destruction of democracy?
Your claim that religion played any part in any of this has long been shot down - politics and power is what is happening.
Religion plays the same role it always did - validating warfare by giving it a cause - pretty much the same as 'God, King' and country' was used to inspire millions of young man to march to their deaths in WW1 or the way that the Empire was set up to civilise and Christianise the savage world - nothing to do with natural resources and cheap labour, of course!! .
Thes countries aren't democracies - they are by and large feudal monarchies.
To suggest that those fighting in Syria are enemies of democracy and freedom is is nutty as it gets - Syria has neither.
Iraq is a feudalist state torn to pieces by western intervention - there was a possibility that The Arab Spring might improve that situation was blown by cynical non-intervention - which would not have happened if oil had been an issue.
Exactly which democracy that Islamism is dedicated to overthrow are you referring to?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM

was purposely coined in order to make links between terrorists and normal people.

More made up bollocks

hence I and many others scorn the term.

Many others?
Even more bollocks, or can you find one in the whole world?
No.

The word is in common usage, and well understood as being quite distinct from Islam and Muslim.
It is ignorant, dangerous and offensive to equate them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:51 PM

I am off now for a couple of weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM

Thanks for the second (more measured and understanding) post,KAof H. Yes, it was my error in my last post- I meant, Islamic, not Islamist.

However, following up on that, I could not find a consistant definition of Islamist that defines it well (some online dictionaries have no definition).

Some of the definitions could well describe orthodox religious fanatics of any religion? Some definitions include only radicals, and others seem to include those dedicated non-violent muslims, mostly promoting a total islamic life, including governing (possibly much like many orthodox religious folks).

As Q notes, adding the word radical or militant Islamists would possibly give a clearer, more accurate meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:55 PM

"I am off now for a couple of weeks."
Missing you already
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM

For those still unclear on the distinction: Islam vs. Islamist

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:05 PM

"Hamas seems to be losing control of the dozens of terror cells in the Gaza Strip.

    Hamas prevented local journalists from covering the ISIS rally in the Gaza Strip last month as part of its effort to deny the existence of ISIS in the Gaza Strip. But Hamas seems to be trying to cover the sun with one finger.

    The Gaza Strip is no longer only a threat to Israel, but also to Egypt. The only way to confront this threat is through security cooperation between Israel and Egypt."

ISIS Already in Gaza Strip

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:05 PM

""Islamists would kill him (Ghandi) for that"

Possibly so-but, I suspect it would not have deterred him from reaching out and trying to build bridges?

However, the radicals need recruits. I suspect Ghandis approach would make it a a lot harder to get them and meld them into radicals. I suspect there are many reasons, historic and current, to build a case against those interested in controlling the Arab region, its people and its resources. This area was likely an incubation zone for radicalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:10 PM

Well said Keith!   But we must remember that Ian and his like don't care a fig about butchered children or real abuses of rights to life.
His world revolves around a much more important issue....the marriage rights of homosexuals!!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:15 PM

The article below nites the difference between radical and moderate islamists. Putting everyone in one camp is illogical, and simplistic, though it does support some folks distorted thinking towards other groups and people they dont like.

The Myth of Excluding Moderate Islamists in the Arab World 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:47 PM

Thanks for the link, Ed T.

Our mayor here in Calgary is a moderate Islamist. A fine man.