Can a believer sing Atheist songs?

Subject: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:20 AM

What the hell...this is a question which I think has a burning need to be answered without delay! Go to it...

:-)

- LH

---

This is one of those borderline threads that could be considered either music or BS. Since it turned up in the music half of the Forum when it was refreshed, it should be left there.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: IanC
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:22 AM

Suggest some examples then ...

;-)

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:23 AM

Aw...I thought I'd leave the hard work to the rest of you...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:25 AM

Depends on what you mean. Can a person with belief sing a song with no overt religious content? of course. (Though he/she may well endow it with some)

Can they sing a song that denies what they believe in? Probably - but it may well cause a great deal of mental anguish.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:25 AM

Well, okay then, there's one called "Plastic Jesus". It's about having a plastic Jesus mounted on the dashboard of your car, etc...

How about that one?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: IanC
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:29 AM

Sounds far too easy to me. It's obviously not about anything a Believer would believe in, so no real challenge. Can't you come up with something better than that???

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:32 AM

Hmmmmm....well, give me some time here...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Burke
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:42 AM

I first heard Plastic Jesus from a Catholic priest. It's not atheistic, it's making fun of a particular religious practice that's easy to ridicule. It's more a Catholic practice & I suspect any Catholic who finds it funny gets a bigger kick out of it than others just because it hits closer to home.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:45 AM

Depends on your point of view. For some people that is a song of faith. for others, it ridicules their faith.

I personally think it falls somewhere inbetween; sort of like the derogatory toasts at a "roast"

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Burke
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:48 AM

When our Oratorio Society sang Elijah I had a really hard time singing "Baal, we cry to thee." It really is a fun chorus & was easy to sing with meaning. Had my fingers crossed the whole time.

Subject: Lyr Add: STAND UP FOR JUDAS
From: IanC
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:58 AM

Right, Little Hawk. I've given you a chance. Now I've had to go and get a goo'un meself! How about this one from Leon Rosselson (good writer).

STAND UP FOR JUDAS (Leon Rosselson)

Chorus:
So stand up, stand up for Judas and the cause that Judas served
It was Jesus who betrayed the poor with his word

The Romans were the masters when Jesus walked the land
In Judea and in Galilee they ruled with an iron hand
And the poor were sick with hunger and the rich were clothed in splendour
And the rebels whipped and crucified hung rotting as a warning
And Jesus knew the answer
Said, Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, said, Love your enemies
But Judas was a Zealot and he wanted to be free
Resist, he said, The Romans' tyranny

Jesus was a conjuror, miracles were his game
And he fed the hungry thousands and they glorified his name
He cured the lame and the lepers, he calmed the wind and the weather
And the wretched flocked to touch him so their troubles would be taken
And Jesus knew the answer
All you who labour, all you who suffer only believe in me
But Judas sought a world where no one starved or begged for bread
The poor are always with us, Jesus said

Now Jesus brought division where none had been before
Not the slaves against their masters but the poor against the poor
Set son to rise up against father, and brother to fight against brother
For he that is not with me is against me, was his teaching
Said Jesus, I am the answer
You unbelievers shall burn forever, shall die in your sins
Not sheep and goats, said Judas, But together we may dare
Shake off the chains of misery we share

Jesus stood upon the mountain with a distance in his eyes
I am the way, the life, he cried, The light that never dies
So renounce all earthly treasures and pray to your heavenly father
And he pacified the hopeless with the hope of life eternal
Said Jesus, I am the answer
And you who hunger only remember your reward's in Heaven
So Jesus preached the other world but Judas wanted this
And he betrayed his master with a kiss

By sword and gun and crucifix Christ's gospel has been spread
And 2,000 cruel years have shown the way that Jesus led
The heretics burned and tortured, and the butchering, bloody crusaders
The bombs and rockets sanctified that rain down death from heaven
They followed Jesus, they knew the answer
All non-believers must be believers or else be broken
So put no trust in Saviours, Judas said, For everyone
Must be to his or her own self - a sun

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:04 AM

I'd be okay with this until about halfway through the third verse - then it gives specifics that I cannot espouse.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: IanC
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:13 AM

Quite a lot of hymns are like that for me. I can still sing them though.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:14 AM

Though I know some fundementalist Christians who would have no problem singing the above song.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:14 AM

I think anybody can sing whatever they please. If there's something that makes you uncomfortable, don't sing it.

My boss is Jewish but enjoys Christmas songs because she likes the music. I have heard some Jewish songs I like because the melodies are pretty.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:15 AM

I'm Catholic and I think the song "Vatican Rag" is hysterical. It makes a complete mockery of the whole religion but I think it's funny anyway. If you can't have a sense of humor, why bother?
"First you get down on your knees,
Fiddle with your rosaries;
Bow your head with great respect,
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!..."

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:17 AM

Vatican Rag is like Plastic Jesus. They don't mock the religion - they mock specific practices of a church that has grown up around man's interpetation of the religion.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: GUEST,Ole Bull
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:20 AM

How about the version of "Old Time Religion"-parody that goes.. "Let us pray to Zoroaster"/Aphrodite, et.al....

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: pavane
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:23 AM

How about Monty Python's Every Sperm is Sacred?

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:26 AM

Always look on the bright side of death
Just before you draw your terminal breath

Answer to Q

I don't know being a pagan myself, but I suspect that ther are so many good songs out there that the "beievers" could not help themselves

Patrish

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:28 AM

Now that I have no problem at all with. Just the way my mind works.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:35 AM

Ah, yes, Ian...I heard that song once. A fellow Mudcatter, MaryMac90, played me a tape with that song on it. While I agree it's somewhat cleverly written, I also think it's really breathtakingly stupid in its utter incomprehension of both Jesus' teachings and Judas' role in the events of the time.

Man, I could go on for hours about that f*cking song!

Let's see...Rosselson clearly believes that man does live by bread alone...he'd have made a great Communist, since that appears to have been their presumption as well.

The various historical atrocities he connects with Jesus' teachings in the last verse certainly happened...and they happened in utter contradiction of what Jesus taught, so why the hell blame Jesus for it? Blame the lunatic churches who founded themselves in his name and betrayed everything he ever stood for.

Get this: Jesus was not a Christian! And those who call themselves Christians have frequently violated everything he stood for (some of them, that is...).

Judas' method of civil resistance was actually attempted not long after Judas and Jesus departed this world. The result: The Romans destroyed Jerusalem, razed it to the ground, and trapped the last of the Jewish zealouts in the fortress at Masada, where they all died (mostly by suicide). Big success! Looks like Jesus was dead right about where that sort of armed resistance would lead...

Jesus was teaching people to achieve the kingdom of heaven while still on Earth, by altering their inner consciousness, which is what all great spiritual masters teach people. He was teaching transformation HERE AND NOW. Rosselson's 4rth verse is utterly off the mark, and again is aimed at many contemporary Christian churches, but not at Jesus. His argument is with those churches and their followers, not with Jesus.

You don't have to be a church person to appreciate what Jesus taught.

Jesus also spoke in parables. Rosselson clearly is a literalist and doesn't get them. In fact, I'd say he has more in common with the most extreme Christian fundamentalists in that respect than he does with anyone who has even a glimmer of spiritual understanding of life.

As Jesus clearly indentified, the Scribes and Pharisees in the Jewish community (the spiritual and educational leadership of the time) were the most oppressive over the minds of the Jewish community. It was a deeper and subtler form of domination than what the Romans were practicing, because it hid behind the mask of the familiar, customary, and accepted. That is why Jesus' main struggle was with those people, not with the Romans. It was those people who conspired against him and had him killed, not the Romans.

Jesus had an appreciation of subtlety. Rosselson simply does not. In spiritual terms he is a moron. Judas was well-intentioned, I believe, and I think he fully expected Jesus to rescue himself by divine power, and I think he was following Jesus' instructions to the letter when he "betrayed" him. It was all orchestrated ahead of time by Jesus. Then, when Jesus died on the cross, Judas felt responsible for it and hung himself, because he didn't understand what was yet to occur (the resurrection). If Judas had actually considered Jesus to be a traitor to the poor, then why would he have had an attack of remorse afterward and hung himself????

My conclusion: This is the most stupid, f*cking, pretentious, off-the-mark, piece of shit song about Jesus that I have ever heard or expect to hear! Leon Rosselson, get a dunce cap and sit in the corner and hang your head in shame...

Lest you misunderstand, I believe in Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, and every every holy figure you have probably ever heard of...because they all taught the same thing. People with guns in their hands will never improve this world.

Ian, my question has been answered. I cannot imagine any occasion on which I would be willing to sing that particular song. Ironical, what? (As the Brits might say...) I've been harpooned by my own flippin' thread! :-) Aaaaaaarrrghhh!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:38 AM

I have no problem with the conflict as set up in the first four verses of the song (above).

My problem is that the final verse incongruously changes which side of the equation is responsible for which historical action or branch of Chrisendom.

It is the "followers of Judas" who mistakenly marry Christianity to government and institutional religion (by the auther's own admission in the first four verses). It is the followers of Jesus who would not make that mistake (in truly Christ-like belief), but would seek personal holiness and selfless living.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:39 AM

and people - "believer's" don't have to be christian or even of the judeo/christian/islamic triad. And if you say they do - then you are making a mockery of the faith of thousands of generations of people - as well as a pretty good proportion of those alive today.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:40 AM

My 1st reaction was a facetious "Why the hell not?!" Truthfully, however, I have problems not only w/ themes but also, sometimes, w/ words. I don't use "divine" words--God, Jesus, hell, damn--except in their religious context & songs that use them are uncomfortable for me. There's a song I'm familiar w/ from Gordon Bok that ends, "And to hell w/ all them Bibles!" I like the song, but I always end up mumbling on that phrase. The Bible says that using words like that lightly offends God & I don't want to do that. I try to live my faith, not just talk it.

best,

bbc

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: IanC
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:42 AM

LH

In a satirical situation I think I might. Seems to me we sometimes take ourselves a little too seriously and sometimes it allows us to look more closely at ourselves if we sing things we disagree with.

By the way, Leon Rosselson is a Jewish Socialist. Some of his songs are rather better than this one.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:42 AM

Little Hawk,

Obviously we cross-posted. It is heartening for me that you drew the same conclusion about the writer's (intentional?) illogical jump that the teachings of Jesus led to the atrocities for which the author blames him.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:44 AM

Depends on whether you sing with your heart or your voice.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:56 AM

"Can a believer sing Atheist songs?"

of course not, they'd be struck by lightning about verse two!

(silly question, silly answer)

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:03 AM

I also am somewhat of a socialist, by the way. Let Rosselson scratch his head over that one. He would have loved the scribes and pharisees...they had the same bloody-minded attitude he does, and he would most likely have slit his own throat at Masada, as the Romans prepared for the final assault.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Terry K
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:03 AM

This fairly lame discussion seems to centre around things which are anti-Christian and/or anti-religion. The thread title refers to "atheist" which is something COMPLETELY different.

At the risk of patronising everyone, a-theistic, or non-theistic people are not necessarily ANTI anything. Atheism is simply the absence of any theistic beliefs, (cf amoral, asexual etc), that is to say the absence of any belief in the need to deify (declare godlike qualities to) and then to worship the resulting deity (god).

Please bear in mind that we are ALL born atheists. It is only when our "elders and betters" get to work on us that we have theism and religion thrust upon us, with such a devastating brainwashing effect that even otherwise sensible people get sucked in.

So we don't BECOME atheist, we simply REVERT once we see through the nonsense.

Here endeth the lesson...

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: IanC
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:06 AM

Terry, thing is I think we all started by agreeing that A-theistic songs were no problem and moved along to where we thought the originator of the thread was going.

For your interest and/or amusement, I found this when I was looking for unchristian songs.

IDOLATRY!

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:07 AM

Ah, Terry, in my case it was exactly the other way around...took me decades to shake off the brainwashing inflicted on me by my atheistic elders. The lesson endeth not....

- LH

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: IanC
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:10 AM

Whoops IDOLS!

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:17 AM

Oh, and Terry...do the children who remember previous lives also get born as atheists? Hmmm?

Check into it, if you've got time. Lots of relevant literature out there.

I have also heard of very young children who gave their parents spiritual instruction...on their own volition...and astounded them. Reverse brainwashing? Or actual perception unclouded by adult prejudice?

I don't expect to convince you of anything, but just to suggest that you have a monopoly on neither maturity nor the knowledge of such matters.

No use talking about advanced chess to someone who's never played the game, is there?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:21 AM

Ian - that site almost makes me nauseous! The thought that there are people who seriously believe the "logic" therein does give me a sick feeling.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: IanC
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:27 AM

Well I rather like some of the quotes, for example

"It is impious presumption in any man to attempt to exercise this high mediatorial prerogative."

;-)
Ian

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:30 AM

Agreed, Mario...my God, I have launched a monster here. Observe as it crawls forth, jibbering demonically, as fundamentalists of both the religious and the atheistic persuasion gird themselves for battle, and rush forth across the plain, scattering bolts of verbal pomposity amid the wrack and ruin. Where is Spaw when we need him? Hurry back, Spaw.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:38 AM

So, have we come up with any examples of atheist songs yet? It seems funny to imagine a bunch of atheists sitting around, singing songs about what they DON'T believe.

(to the tune of Be Thou My Vision:)

I got no visions, cos there ain't no God
Ain't got no soul, just my physical bod'
All o' them theists are sorely deceived
We KNOW or DON'T KNOW; we never BELIEVE.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:38 AM

I think "we" have been able to keep it amicable, tho' Little Hawk.

And some parts of that "idol" site are laughable - but sorta the "if I don't laugh I'm gonna puke or weep" type laughter. (my opinion, of course)

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 12:00 PM

I like it, Mousethief...

I think the only way we are going to get a large body of atheist songs out there is if Bob Dylan goes through a dramatic conversion to militant atheism and does 2 or 3 albums of really dour and fanatical atheist anthems...like...

I Don't Believe In You
Property of Man
Foot of Pride Revisited
Precious Fallen Angel
You Don't Gotta Serve Nobody
Knockin' on No One's Door
Death IS the End!

And so on...

I think the reason there aren't too many atheist songs is because it's so damn boring (not to mention depressing) to go on and on about why something doesn't exist. Most people just can't be bothered writing a song about it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: IanC
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 12:02 PM

I'm inclined to agree. I've had a good laugh with this one. To set the record straight, though, I think you might like to have a look at the Leon Rosselson songs in DT. He's written some good ones, and the "Diggers" one is about a Christian sect who tried to live out their beliefs.

Anyone who wrote "Don't Get Married" and his "red flag" song can't be all bad!

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 12:08 PM

Yes, well, his social ideals are admirable. I think he would find virtually all spiritual masters in agreement with them...just maybe not agreeing about the best way to get there.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 12:10 PM

So if there are going to be any atheist songs, they will have to be written by theists like us.

Let's see now. "And Can It Be" would become reeeeeeeally short.

And Can It Be that there's a god?
No.

What else? "Leaning on the Everlasting Arms" might become "Standing on My Own Two F***ing Feet."

Oh the Ambrose Bierce Dictionareeee,
That's the Book for me!

***

Alex

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 12:19 PM

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 12:19 PM

if you want to find a list of atheist music click here

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 12:28 PM

Wolfgang, most of the stuff they show is anti-Christian or anti-theist rather than atheist.

I thought it was hilarious they included a Bruce Cockburn song on an "atheist music" site. At least they admitted he wasn't an atheist!

I thought Rush was a good candidate, since their lyricist Peart is an Ayn Rand worshipper, but they don't give any specific examples. But indeed most of Peart's lyrics are positive (what he DOES believe in) rather than negative (what he DOESN'T); except a series of songs he wrote attacking the religious. But again, there, you've got anti-theism rather than atheism.

It seems to me the noisier branch of atheism is essentially an insecure creed. It must have something to react against. It doesn't really stand on its own. If all the world's theists were to suddenly disappear, the really rabid atheists -- the ones who make "Atheist Music" webpages -- would be at a total loss. The ones whose parents were ministers or whatever (remember Stalin?) -- are they atheists, or anti-theists?

There are plenty of quiet atheists who just don't give it much thought. They are probably more accurately described as agnostics. They're unlikely to burn any churches, or write songs about how much they hate theists.

The search for atheist music continues.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Matt_R
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 12:31 PM

I thought it funny that they had R.E.M's song "Losing My Religion" on there. Even though Michael Stipe has repeated on numberous occasions that "losing my religion" is a Southern-ism for losing one's temper, as his mother used to say "Now don't go making me lose my religion!". R.E.M. are from Athens, Georgia.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 12:39 PM

and I found it odd they included a number of pagan artistes.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 12:42 PM

Mmario, I think that just indicates exactly which axe they're grinding. Anything that seems anti- or non-Christian would seem to be "atheist" to the person who made the page. Which just supports the claim I made, above, about the type of atheist who needs something to fight.

You might even say that some who call themselves atheists aren't really quite there yet. They haven't stopped fighting God yet. Can you be mad at somebody who you believe doesn't exist?

Alex