BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:28 AM

Mars-Just because someone does not belong to a demographic does not mean that they don't care about them. To say that a wealthy man can't care about the poor is about the same as saying that white people can't care about the plight of minorities. The issue with Bush is not that he didn't get the popular vote, but that there were considerable irregularities concerning the electoral votes of Florida. finally, no one said the war was fraudulent, just its reasons. Do you really think that two missiles that might have gone more than 93 miles is enough reason to go to war?

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:40 AM

Peg,

The simple thing is that I expressed my feelings and instead of just saying you disagreed with them, you implied that I'm ignorant of the situation. That was an insult because you have no idea whether or not that was true. You do not know me.

You are part of what makes America great - you are "big brother" - "I know better so listen to me and don't bother finding out yourself."

You belittle my opinion and hwhen I try to ask a direct question, you blow it off.

Sad, truly sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,Mars
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:59 AM

Of course a wealthy man can care about the poor. Andrew Carnegie was one such person. It just seems funny to me that someone can become wealthy by serving the poor.

I'm not completely convinced about the reasons for the war, one way or the other. But the point is, they kept saying they didn't have these weapons, and apparently they did.

Stilly, I don't have a bandwagon. I'm just asking people to think for a minute, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Beccy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:36 PM

Well, the illustrious Michael Moore himself will be appearing in my nearest large city (Rochester, NY) tonight. I'm just wondering if I can stay up late enough to go stare him down at his appearance or whether I'll give into those old pregnancy hormones and fall asleep immediately after my kids do. Maybe I can just send a proxy starer who can do that "mad" look as well as I do. Hmmm.....
It's worth considering.


Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 01:36 PM

Blackcatter: grow up for Christ's sake. These over-the-top insults of yours are for the birds. I'm "Big Brother?"
Okay, fine, then you're Pollyanna.

You are STILL putting words in my mouth and I'll thank you to stop doing it.

Your "direct question" was obviously sarcastic so why should I honor it?

I did not use the word "ignorant"--you are making my original comments FAR worse than they were, and you have continued to escalate this. That has been your choice. I can't help it if your self-esteem issues get in the way of your having a conversation.

Beccy: I doubt your "staring down" Michael Moore will have much effect on the cheering and applause that auditorium will be resounding with...
I used to live in Rochester and I think the working people who have lost jobs at Kodak and Xerox over the years might appreciate what this man has to say...

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:03 PM

Carnegie cared about the poor? That's why he called in the Pinkerton thugs during the Homestead Strike?

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,Mars
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:44 PM

I don't know about the Homestead Strike, although I do vaguely remember that Carnegie was a rather relentless businessman. I will have to go look that up too. I am given to understand, however, that he gave a LOT of money to causes that helped the poor. If I am mistaken in that regard, I apologize.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:09 PM

I hope Halle Berry's husband popped Brodie a good one for assaulting his wife like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blues=Life
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:31 PM

Peg, I'm still confused by what you mean.(Really, so help me out here.)
The point I made is that "working class" folks were booing the man about whom you said "many Americans admire his work on behalf of the working class." It sounded as if these "working class" union stage hands didn't think much of Moore's point of view.

You replied:
"You seemed to think a Hollywood stagehand at the Oscars was a good example of a "working class" employee and I wanted to point out that such a worker was treated far better by his/her union than most."

Now isn't that the pinacle for which working class folks are striving for? Aren't they still working class? Do you have to belong to a crappy union, or be poorly paid, or just un-employeed to be working class?

The reality of it is, I think if you interviewed "the working class", whoever they might be (you pick 'em), I think you might find little support for Moore's message. In fact, I think that many of them would probably boo MM too. (Whose kids do you think are serving overseas, those of the actors and studio owners, or those of working class families?)

Then again, I could be wrong.

Peace,
Blues

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Beccy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:36 PM

Peg- That's nice that you used to live in Rochester. I still live here, and I find that there is a lot of support for the war here. He'll probably get a lot of applause, but I'd venture to say that he'd get that at about any college campus in America with the grand exception of Hillsdale and maybe a couple others.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:47 PM

Blues=Life-You're right. Most of the people serving in Iraq are probably from working-class families. I'd think that the families would be more likely to support Moore because of that, unless they WANT their kids getting shot at.

CarolC-Halle Berry didn't seem to mind. She was laughing about it when he went offstage. Hardly seem to qualify as an assault, and I'm sure she can take care of herself.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:56 PM

I still hope her husband popped him good. What Brodie did was incredibly disrespectful.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:35 PM

Actually, Carnegie gave a lot of money, late in life, to causes that helped to ease his conscience for the way in which he acquired his fortune. There are a number of good biographies of him that make just this point. Two good works on the Homestead Strike are Leon Wolff's _Lockout_ NY Harper & Row 1965 and William Serrin's _Homestead_ NY Times Books 1992

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:36 PM

Is Halle married right now? Who knows that they didn't plan the whole thing from the start! ;-)

I didn't see the show so I can't really comment about Moore's comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Beccy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:43 PM

KimC- A transcript of his statement from Drudge:


"On behalf of our producers Kathleen Glynn and Michael Donovan from Canada, I'd like to thank the Academy for this. I have invited my fellow documentary nominees on the stage with us, and we would like to — they're here in solidarity with me because we like nonfiction. We like nonfiction and we live in fictitious times. We live in the time where we have fictitious election results that elects a fictitious president. We live in a time where we have a man sending us to war for fictitious reasons. Whether it's the fictition (sic) of duct tape or fictition (sic) of orange alerts we are against this war, Mr. Bush. Shame on you, Mr. Bush, shame on you. And any time you got the Pope and the Dixie Chicks against you, your time is up. Thank you very much."

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:48 PM

the only thing Moore did wrong was call Junior "mr"....Junior does not deserve that title of respect....

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 06:56 PM

Hear hear! But then again, don't make fun or poor Dammit Janet either!

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:47 PM

sorry that last guest was me.

Hi there, Mrr!

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 08:48 PM

Contentious Courtiers, mudcat folks
Let's not lose sight of truth
Pretentious lawyers tell our jokes
But please be not uncooth

Thus and alas, extend your hand
I'm trying to myself
This too shall pass, strike up the band
Let's sing for all good health

This fighting hurts our folking team
We're all in this together
Provoking words of peace can't dream
Take not offence, not ever!

...well, we can try! You are all wonderful. ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Troll
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:31 PM

Blackcatter, you see what I mean. Offer up a definition regarding ANY post of Pegs that is in any critical of her or that Could br construed as critical of her and you get "Grow up" and "asinine" and other such disparaging terms.
Her response was especially humerous since I never mentioned her name; I simply responded to your post.
It is unfortunate that there are so many thin-skinned people in the world; people who feel that their every utterance is golden and worthy of enshrinement in some repository of wisdom, while anything that anyone else says that doesn't agree with their sacred pronouncements is ignorant, stupid, immature and/ or asinine, to name a few.
Oh well, there's a special corner of Hell reserved for those who try to clarify things. I should have known better.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: DougR
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 02:15 AM

Mars: you asking us to THINK! Jeeze, you dreamer you!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:22 AM

I loved Moore's truncated speech. It took the sting out of Bill Maher selling out (yet again) later in the evening (on his newish program, Real Time With Bill Maher, on HBO). I probably should have expected it, but I really was suprised by his "I used to oppose the war, but now that it's started, we all have to pull together and fellate the president"-type statements. I was heartened to see that Tim Robbins (in an anti-war t-shirt) was a guest, but he wasn't given much of a chance to speak his mind, as Maher spent almost the entire show talking about the Academy Awards (which had not happened as of the shows taping) and cracking some absolutely daring jokes about celebrity boob-jobs. Funny stuff, Bill.

Moore, though, is GOD. And I miss his tv shows. :(

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:41 AM

Oh, and I think I was more offended by Adrien Brody's support of (paedophile anal-rapist, fugitive) Roman Polanski than by his mauling Halle Berry. She seemed amused, and kissed back. (Unlike the child Polanski raped)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:04 AM

Blues wrote:

Peg, I'm still confused by what you mean.(Really, so help me out here.)
--okay, I will try but I may get confused myself.

The point I made is that "working class" folks were booing the man about whom you said "many Americans admire his work on behalf of the working class." It sounded as if these "working class" union stage hands didn't think much of Moore's point of view.
--first of all, it was ONE stagehand who was mentioned...and the reaction of anyone in that audience or theatre is not reflective of everyonein America; how could it be?


You replied:
"You seemed to think a Hollywood stagehand at the Oscars was a good example of a "working class" employee and I wanted to point out that such a worker was treated far better by his/her union than most."

Now isn't that the pinacle for which working class folks are striving for? Aren't they still working class? Do you have to belong to a crappy union, or be poorly paid, or just un-employeed to be working class?
--yes, I agree such working conditions are what working people strive for and the labor movement has worked for this. I am involved in a union effort myself at the moment. My point was that those who do NOT belong to such successful (or fortunate) unions might be more likely to support Moore since he champions working people who have been shafted (more likely to have happened to auto workers than to Equity stagehands). In other words, not everyone in the "working class" has suffered the same at the hands of corporations; Moore seems to be concerned with this distinction.


The reality of it is, I think if you interviewed "the working class", whoever they might be (you pick 'em), I think you might find little support for Moore's message.
--I disagree; what about the people in his films?? But in part you may be right that anyone asked to watch a documentary might be put off; my experience when watching the press screening of Bowling for Columbine was when people wandered in (as they do in multi-plexes, seeming to think catching part of a movie in addition to theone they paid to see is somehow a worthwhile thing to do) they soon wandered out again, muttering or complaining. To them this sort of thing isn't a "real" movie.


In fact, I think that many of them would probably boo MM too. (Whose kids do you think are serving overseas, those of the actors and studio owners, or those of working class families?)
--a fair point, but I agree with whoever said that parents of armed service personnel overseas might be happy that someone is pointing out the folly of this invasion. Not all families support their kids being in the military.


Then again, I could be wrong.
--any of us could be; and much of what we are talking about is very subjective. Thank you for your respectful questions.


Peace,
Blues



Troll wrote:

Blackcatter, you see what I mean.
--excuse me, Troll, but why are you trying to insinuate Blackcatter into your little game? What does any of this have to do with you? You are just like the playground bully who is too cowardly to fight anyone himself but likes to egg on other kids to fight each other.

Offer up a definition regarding ANY post of Pegs that is in any critical of her or that Could br construed as critical of her and you get "Grow up" and "asinine" and other such disparaging terms.
--But your tone and choice of language in these posts IS asinine and immature. I am perfectly capable of acceptingthat someone disagrees with me. You think being "critical" of someone on a personal level should not be responded to? You use petty personal insults to try and make a point, rather than the traditional modes of argument. Such behavior is traditionally responded to in kind. If you respectfully disagree with someone and explain why, you will be treated with respect (as Blues has tried to do and as I thought he deserved in kind--both of us perhaps taking a page from Thomas the Rhymer's thoughtful ditty).


Her response was especially humerous since I never mentioned her name; I simply responded to your post.
--yes, it's very HUMOROUS that you think you are cleverly ganging up with others to attack me. Must make you feel all righteous inside. But why not let Blackcatter respond himself? (I assume it's a he).


It is unfortunate that there are so many thin-skinned people in the world; people who feel that their every utterance is golden and worthy of enshrinement in some repository of wisdom, while anything that anyone else says that doesn't agree with their sacred pronouncements is ignorant, stupid, immature and/ or asinine, to name a few.
--None of this has ANYTHING to do with someone disagreeing with me. As I said above, and have demonstrated here, I am capable of civil debate with respectful discourse. I am far from being thin-skinned. If I were, I'd have abandoned this. I have been responding to personal insults that YOU have aimed at me. And you are still doing it. It is not my low self-esteem or moral superiority or intellectual arrogance that prompted you to insult me. It is your mean-spirited, small-minded personality.


Oh well, there's a special corner of Hell reserved for those who try to clarify things. I should have known better.
--well, enjoy it when you get there. Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 02:36 PM

Lepus Rex, I tend to think of Polanski as an unsavory character but it should be noted that he was convicted of statutory rape, the seduction of a 13-year old girl. Saying 'rape' has a different connotation.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 02:44 PM

ok...he should have been castrtated for child molestation then...nothing less.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 03:02 PM

Well, Ebbie, he drugged and had forcible anal sex with a 13-year-old child. Whatever he was convicted of, I'd call him a rapist. Here's some documents I doubt youll enjoy, but are informative...

But this is off topic, so that's enough on the subject from me. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 05:46 PM

Twenty-six years ago and the victim has spoken out that it should not figure in whether he received an Oscar or not. Presumably he's never done anything of the kind since. One also wonders where her parents were and also what kind of psychological damage he might have still been suffering from in relation to the brutal murder of his wife, Sharon Tate, and their unborn baby a few years prior to that. Not that that excuses what he did.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:17 PM

Kat, read the transcript of the girl's testimony, which I linked above... Polanski made her call her mother, to tell her she would be home late. And I imagine that the only reason he hasn't been convicted of child rape in France is that the age of consent there is 15...

But what does the fact that it was 26 years ago, or that his wife was murdered, have to do with Polanski being a criminal paedophile? I mean, I didn't go out cruising for underage pussy when my cat died. The scumbag belongs in jail, preferably sharing a cell with a large, violent man who likes to rape Polaks. :)

Oops. I love Michael Moore, dammit. Michael Moore.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:09 PM

Well, I read the first page of your link, didn't go read the whole testimony. Still, wonder why her mother wasn't with her? I don't have the time or energy to read the whole thing.

All I was saying was the way Sharon Tate was murdered and all that came out of that must've had some effect, most of it negative I am sure, on him and that might explain some of his behaviour. I did not say it would excuse it, in any way.

Also, we have a tradition that says a person is free once they've gone through certain legal steps. I don't know if he served any time, but it seems to me, IF he was put through the due process of law AND paid for his crime in whatever way the courts decided, then we have to accept that. It was a long time ago, and as I said, presumably he has not done anything criminal since then.

It's not a perfect system, but I cannot see that any of the dire things you or amergin suggest should be done to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:48 PM

Well, as a grown man who happens to like kids, I think pedophiles do more than harm their particular victim, who may well get out of it all right, sometimes, I don't know, but they create the horrible horrible sad awful terrible distrust and apprehension with friends and neighbors which makes childhood a worse deal even than it used to be. I'm terribly conflicted in that I'd like to extend to my kids the trust and independence that they deserve, but you know, I just can't. I have to explain to them that I just don't trust people. It fucking sucks. Just to be a kid and run around the neighborhood--remember that? I don't think Polanski was ever held accountable for his actions, I don't know what the age of drugged consent is in France, these days, and though I don't think I sentimentalize sex crimes as in in some t.v. melodrama movie of the week-- the horror! worse-than-death, tearjerk way, I think taking advantage of kids in any and every way does harm to society in general more than we can begin to fathom.
    He's a stupid fuck and I never liked his crap-ass sensational-pretentious man-who-reads-playboy kind of bullshit movies anyway.

   But I like Michael Moore.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: DougR
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 01:34 AM

Take the time to read the whole testimony, kat. Then revisit your conversation with Lepus.

I don't wonder that the man is afraid to come to the U. S. even after all these years.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 01:42 AM

I did read the whole thing- although I had not, in years past. As I said, a seamy character.

But I agree with kat. From what the kid relays about her mother's responses and from her own testimony, I don't get the feeling that this was a kid who got a whole lot of guidance in her life.

It says there, by the way, that the reason that Polanski fled the US is that he began to suspect that the Judge was thinking of reneging on the deal they had struck.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 03:29 PM

So it's somehow the mother's fault, or the kid's fault? I don't get it. I don't think it's ever all about the particular victim. The question is entirely Polanski's guidance of his own actions, and his responsibility for them.

It's especially awful for girls, because just when they're getting old enough to go around on their own, it's starts to be an even more worrisome idea. Childhood becomes more and more an existential formaldehyde. "Preparing them for life".

   Kids running around the neighborhood with their friends. People have to pay for attacking that kingdom. Pay a lot, because it's worth a lot. I envy the free-range of kids about whose parents one might well ask, Where are they? When things go bad, where were the parents? Yes, but a measure of independence and trust is a great thing to be able to grant a child who deserves it. If you can stand it. Comes a point where giving them guidance all the time is cheating them.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 04:49 PM

I wanted to stay out of this because it means disagreeing with friends, and who gives a shit what ANY of us think anyway?

But.....I started it, so I don't think I have the right 'stickhandle' around an issue that calls my avowed hatred of "ideologies" into play.

Polanski has made friggin' BRILLIANT movies for many years. They're marvellously filmed and acted....and apparently actors really wanna work with HIM as much as they do Woody Allen (another former hero).

But I don't think you fuck little girls simply because you can. You don't do it because you're a famous and powerful director. You don't do it because you have the persuasive powers of a great director, and even if the little girl dresses provocatively, smokes your dope, swims in your pool, and then seduces you......you are still a paedophile.

In many countries where puberty means the start of child bearing, or marriage, the rules are different. But the rules in Canada and the US are very clear....sometimes even major celebrities get caught.

PS. I think Adrien Brody's behaviour was atrocious (and probably the result of nervousness). I think Halle's response was brilliant, and saved it from becoming a verrry embarrasing incident. The 'wiping of the mouth" (while the camera was on her) told me a lot. The big smile on her face, as they left the stage, was NOT convincing to me.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 04:57 PM

Okay. Polanski pleaded guilty to having sex with a minor, so he was guilty of a felony. According to the report I read, he fled to France to avoid sentencing. THAT is a bunch of bullshit and I do NOT condone that!

Here is what his victim had to say in the LATimes, before the Oscars:

"I don't really have any hard feelings toward him, or any sympathy, either," wrote Samantha Geimer. "But I believe that Mr. Polanski and his film should be honored according to the quality of the work. What he does for a living and how good he is at it have nothing to do with me or what he did to me."

I have read all of the testimony available at the website for which there was provided a link. I still say what the fuck was the mother doing? NO, I do NOT blame the victim and YES, he is guilty, obviously, BUT the mother surely has something to answer to, too. The girl admitted having had sex and qualuudes before, having found the drugs presumably at her own home?! AND, the mother let her daughter go off with Polanski with no chaperone or checking into what kind of pix he wanted to take, etc?! Excuse me? At 13 years old??!!

He should not have left the country. He should have accepted whatever the sentencing was going to be, but after 26 years and, considering the comments of the girl, I still do NOT agree that he needs to be incarcerated with a bunch of gang-bangers or any of the other dire things which have been called for in this thread.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:05 PM

I'm not implying that the victim 'brought it on herself'. I do say that it was evidently a different world that the kid lived in than that of 'the girl next door'. She had previously taken quaaludes and had previously had sex ("twice". Right).

So I'll stick to my theory that there was a disconnect between the child and her parent.

After I read the court transcripts, I sat here analyizing my response if that had happened to my daughter. (I know a little of my projected reaction because after an elderly man rather mildly molested my daughter and another little girl, I picked up a tree branch and whipped him all the way home where his equally elderly wife was waiting at the door. If he had died, I would not have cared.)

I believe I would have gone ballistic if this had happened to my thirteen year old daughter. I believe I would have had Polanski arrested. I believe I would have ruined his reputation and run him out of town if I were able. I also believe that I would have grieved my neglectful parenting.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:47 PM

Thanks, kat. I agree with you fully. I sat here so long over that post that I crossposted with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:21 PM

I still don't see what the girl's comments have to do with it. We generally don't have victims decide sentencing. It's beside the point whether she brought it on herself or not. A thirteen year old kid might well look for something like that to happen, or some different sort of trouble entirely. He should serve the sentence, still.

The mother--well, I'd done sex and drugs at thirteen, where was my mother? Doing the best she could at the time. If I'd been assaulted by an over-rated celebrity I guess it would have reflected very poorly on her, and everyone would appoint themselves to judge her, and me. Not enough for a kid to get assaulted by a sensational phoney, but everyone gets to cast votes about them as people, like it was a parent and child oscars ceremony. Nice.

I've never seen a Polanski film I thought anything of. Maybe I missed something.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:51 PM

Thanks, Ebbie. Like you, I know whomever may have tried that with one of my daughters would have been lucky to escape with their life, let alone their nuts!

Fred, there was no sentence. I agree, he should have stayed and "faced the music."

I guess what I am trying to say is it has been a long time, the girl obviously does not care what happens to him anymore, and everyone has moved on, so why keep beating on the subject?

When my girls were that age, we lived in a ritzy area with its share of celeb hideouts, right nex door, almost, to one fo the highest crime rated areas in the state. There were all kinds of things they could have gotten into. You can damn well bet I knew where they were and with whom at all times and they did NOT do drugs nor find any in my home when they were just young'uns.

As I said, whatever the girl says or what her mother did or did not do, does not excuse what Polanski did. I think, though, that if they all can move on, the rest of us ought to be able to, also.

Of course, if it comes out that he has continued such activities, then I'd be all for throwing the book at him. I repeat, though, that I still do NOT think the dire punishments called for in this thread are warranted.

Just curious...in today's paper there is an article about a girl who ran away with her next door neighbour when she was 12 as she was pregnant by him. He was 19, if I remember right. They went to Mexico to his family's home. Her parents thought she was kidnapped and gone forever. She went to a US consulate the other day and said she was a missing person and, at 15, she has two children. She is now back home with her family, from what I can gather.

What do you all think should be done with the neighbour?

Sorry, Rick...I love Michaal Moore, too!!

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 09:39 PM

Well, yes, Kat, there was no sentence, but the point of saying he should serve the sentence is that there should've been and still should be. Whether the girl has moved on--one would hope! or is dead or disappeared from the earth is quite beside the point. I've already said several times why I can't move on, in that it corrodes our society, apart from the harm, or none, to the kid in question. If you don't see that, you don't. I take it pedophile priests or whomever should be granted this same Ah what the Hey amnesty as long as the kids and everyone whose trust they abused have gone on with their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 11:27 PM

Not at all, Fred.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 02:12 AM

Not at all? Well, I'm not sure what distinction you make. I make one between a crime against an individual and against society in general. If she felt differently, wanted him castrated, would it still be up to her in your view? Would it be different if Polanski were a mechanic? I'm reduced to guessing.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 10:25 AM

Fred, I have said what I feel, several times. What don't you understand? He should have stayed to sentenced. He should have done time. I do not believe he should be brutalised in the ways some have called for in this thread. That has been my main point all along. Period. That's it. We disagree.

Back to the subject of the thread, Michael Moore had this to say when defending his Oscar speech:

Moore agrees that the Oscars is not normally a place for political commentary.
    "And if I had won the Oscar for a movie about birds or insects, I'd say something about them. But I made a movie about violence -- and global violence -- so I felt I had to say something about that. I just hope I generated a discussion about Mr. Bush and the war."

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 06:36 PM

I understand he should've stayed to be sentenced, understand he should've done time, and I think I've made it clear that what I don't understand is why anyone should forget about it, or why we should drag aspersions and characterizations of the victim and her mother into it, when they are not the adult criminal. That's all.

I understand the frustration and outrage behind hyperbolic remarks on this thread, including those of Michael Moore, which do not really make practical sense, but are genuinely expressive of those feelings. And I think he's right--when Holly Hunter went on about playing the piano, and her piano teacher, and blah blah, as if she was at a piano recital, it was because she was in a movie about a piano. When Tom Hanks talked about issues affecting gays, and how those issues lent power and resonance to his performance in Philadelphia, nobody said these political remarks were inappropriate. It's what the movie was about.

I set aside my own opposition to the war when it started, and hoped for the best, hoped it could be short and with minimal civilian casualties, but seeing injured kids and distraught families on the news, it seems to be more and more the awful mistake it was bound to become. I tried not to let my general distrust of Bush make me utterly cynical about everything he touches, but he makes it very difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 07:45 PM

Fred, regardless of whether Polanski is a Bad Guy (and obviously he is, at least a little bit) I sometimes wonder whether it is the attitudes of parents that is costing the kids their childhood freedoms.

I suspect you are mistaken in thinking kids are at greater risk from paedophiles than previously. In the UK the rates haven't changed much either way in 50 years. What has changed is that in the developed countries, as we grow ever more spoilt, and often encouraged by disproportionate media frenzies, we have taken up absurd attitudes to risk.

Oh, and I'm glad Michael Moore - anyone - did a Python and "mentioned the war," even if it could have been done more elegantly. When it comes to tearing the tripe out of this administration's hypocrisies, no-one comes close to Noam Chomsky. Pussy-footing round the issue on account of morale in the trenches makes no sense to me. How immoral/illegal would a war have to be before we could stop prentending otherwise for the sake of morale in the field? I suspect that for one or two here, there is no limit.

But like Buffy Sainte Marie said in that classic anti-war song Moratorium: "Fuck the war, and bring our brothers home." I've no doubt that a few marines would say amen to that, and hope that it was before they've had to kill any more Iraqis, Brits, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 01:10 PM

Fionn, I um. Okay. I can see how you might take the implication that I think pedophilia has risen, but I don't have any idea about that. I'm sure the rates of pedophilia you cite aren't a poll of people who checked the pedophile box on a survey. I'd guess they reflect reported and therefore countable assaults or abuses or rapes in that category?

The correlation I was making though was including these things among other stupid derelictions of basic social responsibility, community life. I also would call these things uncertainties rather than risks, a fine distinction, but it means something. I'm quite sure that parental attitudes are most directly what undermine childhood freedoms, and on top of that, childhood responsibilities--one wouldn't be all torn and conflicted if they felt right or good about the limits they sometimes impose. I'm pro-child labor, and if it weren't that you can't trust a capitalist society to have the requisite basic decency, the community culture, we wouldn't have to make that legal restriction either.

Parents are at fault, certainly, for imposing too many restrictions, and also, simultaneously, as we have heard above, for not imposing enough. And I wouldn't even complain that these comments undermine the morale of parents in the trenches, as they say. It's just the nature of the job.

   My point was more that focusing on judging victims opens the door to every sort of social bias, that it's not really nicer to take advantage of a messed-up kid--I'm sure it's probably easier, and people seem more likely to want to forgive you for it. I think it's more of the white-collar bias of our legal ideas, that if a person has the means and resources to openly avoid the law, and it's consequences, we start to want to forgive them. He's ducked it so long, let's forget it. I think that's why corporate scandals get drawn out so tediously, to quell outrage with sheer boredom. Success would seem to counterbalance derelictions of responsponsibilty somehow, with directors, ceo's, whatever. Michael Moore does very well with clearing holes in this fog, the shiny corporate facade of community connectedness.

    It sounds just a little pissy to me if you want to make it out I'm saying Polanski's a baaaad guy. I'm saying he's just like anyone else who made the same mistake, despite the pianist, or pirates, or that awful mcbeth, or that he ran away, or whatever. I may find movies of his I love, but it just doesn't matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Kim C
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 01:40 PM

Kiss schmiss. There's bigger fish to fry than some pretty actor-boy's bad manners. But ask yourself this: when was the last time you got a Best Actor Oscar presented to you by a Really Pretty Girl?

Heck, people in Hollywood kiss each other (and more!) all the time in the movies.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 07:44 PM

An update. Sorry it is so long, but it seems important:

My Oscar "Backlash" - - - - -
resulting in "Stupid White Men" back At #1, "Bowling for Columbine"
breaking new box-office records!!!!
By Michael Moore

April 7, 2003

Dear friends,

It appears that the Bush administration will have succeeded in colonizing Iraq sometime in the next few days. This is a blunder of such magnitude-- and we will pay for it for years to come. It was not worth the life of one single American kid in uniform, let alone the thousands of Iraqis who have died, and my condolences and prayers go out to all of them.

So, where are all those weapons of mass destruction that were the pretense for this war? Ha! There is so much to say about all this, but I will save it for later.

What I am most concerned about right now is that all of you -- the majorityof Americans who did not support this war in the first place -- not go silent or be intimidated by what will be touted as some great military victory. Now, more than ever, the voices of peace and truth must be heard. I have received a lot of mail from people who are feeling a profound sense of despair and believe that their voices have been drowned out by the drums and bombs of false patriotism. Some are afraid of retaliation at work or at school or in their neighborhoods because they have been vocal proponents of peace. They have been told over and over that it is not "appropriate" to
protest once the country is at war, and that your only duty now is to
"support the troops."

Can I share with you what it's been like for me since I used my time on the Oscar stage two weeks ago to speak out against Bush and this war? I hope that, in reading what I'm about to tell you, you'll feel a bit more emboldened to make your voice heard in whatever way or forum that is open to you.

When "Bowling for Columbine" was announced as the Oscar winner for Best Documentary at the Academy Awards, the audience rose to its feet. It was a great moment, one that I will always cherish. They were standing and cheering for a film that says we Americans are a uniquely violent people, using our massive stash of guns to kill each other and to use them against many countries around the world. They were applauding a film that shows George W. Bush using fictitious fears to frighten the public into giving him whatever he wants. And they were honoring a film that states the following:
The first Gulf War was an attempt to reinstall the dictator of Kuwait;
Saddam Hussein was armed with weapons from the United States; and the
American government is responsible for the deaths of a half-million children in Iraq over the past decade through its sanctions and bombing. That was the movie they were cheering, that was the movie they voted for, and so I decided that is what I should acknowledge in my speech.

And, thus, I said the following from the Oscar stage:

"On behalf of our producers Kathleen Glynn and Michael Donovan (from
Canada), I would like to thank the Academy for this award. I have invited the other Documentary nominees on stage with me. They are here in solidarity because we like non-fiction. We like non-fiction because we live in fictitious times. We live in a time where fictitious election results give us a fictitious president. We are now fighting a war for fictitious reasons. Whether it's the fiction of duct tape or the fictitious 'Orange Alerts,' we are against this war, Mr. Bush. Shame on you, Mr. Bush, shame on you. And, whenever you've got the Pope and the Dixie Chicks against you, you're time
is up."

Halfway through my remarks, some in the audience started to cheer. That immediately set off a group of people in the balcony who started to boo. Then those supporting my remarks started to shout down the booers. The L. A. Times reported that the director of the show started screaming at the orchestra "Music! Music!" in order to cut me off, so the band dutifully struck up a tune and my time was up. (For more on why I said what I said, you can read the op-ed I wrote for the L.A. Times, plus other reaction from around the country at my website http://www.michaelmoore.comwww.michaelmoore.com http://www.michaelmoore.com )

The next day -- and in the two weeks since -- the right-wing pundits and radio shock jocks have been calling for my head. So, has all this ruckus hurt me? Have they succeeded in "silencing" me?

Well, take a look at my Oscar "backlash":

-- On the day after I criticized Bush and the war at the Academy Awards, attendance at "Bowling for Columbine" in theaters around the country went up 110% (source: Daily Variety/BoxOfficeMojo.com). The following weekend, the box office gross was up a whopping 73% (Variety). It is now the longest-running consecutive commercial release in America, 26 weeks in a row and still thriving.

The number of theaters showing the film since the Oscars has INCREASED, and it has now bested the previous box office record for a documentary by nearly 300%.

-- Yesterday (April 6), "Stupid White Men" shot back to #1 on the New York Times bestseller list. This is my book's 50th week on the list, 8 of them at number one, and this marks its fourth return to the top position, something that virtually never happens.

-- In the week after the Oscars, my website was getting 10-20 million
hits A DAY (one day we even got more hits than the White House!). The mail has been overwhelmingly positive and supportive (and the hate mail has been hilarious!).

-- In the two days following the Oscars, more people pre-ordered the video for "Bowling for Columbine" on Amazon.com than the video for the Oscar winner for Best Picture, "Chicago".

-- In the past week, I have obtained funding for my next documentary, and I have been offered a slot back on television to do an updated version of "TV Nation"/ "The Awful Truth."

I tell you all of this because I want to counteract a message that is told to us all the time -- that, if you take a chance to speak out politically, you will live to regret it. It will hurt you in some way, usually financially. You could lose your job. Others may not hire you. You will lose friends. And on and on and on.

Take the Dixie Chicks. I'm sure you've all heard by now that, because their lead singer mentioned how she was ashamed that Bush was from her home state of Texas, their record sales have "plummeted" and country stations are boycotting their music. The truth is that their sales are NOT down. This week, after all the attacks, their album is still at #1 on the Billboard country charts and, according to
Entertainment Weekly, on the pop charts during all the brouhaha, they ROSE from #6 to #4. In the New York Times, Frank Rich reports that he tried to find a ticket to ANY of the Dixie Chicks' upcoming concerts but he couldn't because they were all sold out. (To read Rich's column from yesterday's Times, "Bowling for Kennebunkport," go here:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/articles/index.php?article=20030406-nytimeshttp: //www.michallmoore.com/articles/index.php?article=20030406-nytimes

He does a pretty good job of laying it all out and talks about my next
film and the impact it could potentially have.) Their song, "Travelin'
Soldier" (a beautiful anti-war ballad) was the most requested song on the internet last week. They have not been hurt at all -- but that is not what the media would have you believe.
Why is that? Because there is nothing more important now than to keep the voices of dissent -- and those who would dare to ask a question -- SILENT.
And what better way than to try and take a few well-known entertainers down with a pack of lies so that the average Joe or Jane gets the message loud and clear: "Wow, if they would do that to the Dixie Chicks or Michael Moore, what would they do to little ol' me?" In other words, shut the f--- up.

And that, my friends, is the real point of this film that I just got an Oscar for -- how those in charge use FEAR to manipulate the public into doing whatever they are told.

Well, the good news -- if there can be any good news this week -- is that not only have neither I nor others been silenced, we have been joined by millions of Americans who think the same way we do. Don't let the false patriots intimidate you by setting the agenda or the terms of the debate. Don't be defeated by polls that show 70% of the public in favor of the war. Remember that these Americans being polled are the same Americans whose kids (or neighbor's kids) have been sent over to Iraq. They are scared for the troops and they are being cowed into supporting a war they did not want -- and they want even less to see their friends, family, and neighbors come home dead. Everyone supports the troops returning home alive and all of us
need to reach out and let their families know that.

Unfortunately, Bush and Co. are not through yet. This invasion and conquest will encourage them to do it again elsewhere. The real purpose of this war was to say to the rest of the world, "Don't Mess with Texas - If You Got What We Want, We're Coming to Get It!" This is not the time for the majority of us who believe in a peaceful America to be quiet. Make your voices heard. Despite what they
have pulled off, it is still our country.

Yours,

Michael Moore
http://www.michaelmoore.comwww.michaelmoore.com
http://www.michaelmoore.com
http://www.michaelmoore.com/mailing/unsubscribe.phphttp://www.michaelmoore.com

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 04:16 AM

bravo. Thanks kat.