BS: McCain... Another lieing president???

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:32 PM

OK--so take the "very" away from the concerned.

I'm not into working on the politics front. Like at all.

But I don't consider holding political opinions and voting to be doing nothing or "having it both ways". By paying attention at election time and showing up to vote, I already do more than many, many of my fellow citizens.

So, maybe you could lay of the guilt trip, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:35 PM

Come on Rig. You can do better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:47 PM

McCain as president? Please bite your tongue.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 05:06 PM

"Hasn't been all that long that Obama was paying off student loans unless,..."



                  Maybe Tony Rezko took care of them!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 06:59 PM

DV,

Wsan't 'sposed to be no guilt trip... Lotta folks saying stuff just like you...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 09:35 PM

Well if that's the case....I guess Obama is just changing his mind.


Take a look at this!


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 09:55 PM

""If, in order to get that passed, we have to compromise in terms of a careful, well thought-out drilling strategy that was carefully circumscribed to avoid significant environmental damage - I don't want to be so rigid that we can't get something done.""

Well, you can think what you like, but htios strikes me as a man who understands statesmanship. He could go to the wall making the other side look stupid (because the push for drilling is illogical) but he's not doing that. He's giving a little in order to get somewhere free of oil dependence. And from what he has said, not much being given away.

But it was a mature and thoughtful step.

And no, he hasn't changed his mind; he has taken a positive step to reach a point of progress. What kind of ideal would it be to have someone figure a situation out from one point of view only and then stick hard over on it until the cows come home?


A

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 09:56 PM

Look at what?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:41 PM

Look at what Obama's selling out now!

God, even Nancy Pelosi hasn't stooped this low.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:55 PM

Following the story on Obama's comments posted by Conservative are some google adds for oil investment-
Please, don't get sucked in. Maybe not legally scams, but your money will disappear almost as quickly.

Obama shows he is not gungho on the drilling, and he is right- McCain thinks the issue will be popular, and is pushing, wrongly.

I wonder what oil companies are "beating the drums on drilling" ?
I am afraid they might be of the speculative ilk, who suck in investors, drill, and walk away with the money even if the hole is dry.
On the other hand, some company with a good technical staff may have outlined a prospect, and has a legitimate proposal. Great care should be exercized in awarding drilling rights, sometimes awarding to the highest bidder is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 11:12 PM

Obama didn't have to stoop this low. Pelosi & the Congressional Dems held firm on one damn thing the entire year, and Obama caves the day they win it and go home?

WTF?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 11:23 PM

Jesus, DV, take a cold shower. You're watching the guy look for common ground, refusing to be hard over in the beginning.

At this stage of things, it's the right move.


A

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 11:39 PM

Amos, these guys forget that he has to get elected in order to begin the work that must be done. He is doing a good job of accomplishing that. It is no walk in the park, but he is doing fine.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:06 AM

Maybe I'm dense, but I couldn't figure out what he was selling out. As Amos says, 'common ground' is important, and he is beginning to look like he is willing to work toward compromise solutions.
Although I have looked on McCain as the best choice, now I am beginning to wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:10 AM

Obama is a middle of the road, pragmatic politician. He is in favor of what works. Anyone who thought he was a liberal was listening to people talking about him and not to what he has been saying.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:17 AM

No! He was only liberal during the primary. Now he's adrift.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:19 AM

See you in November, Riggy.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:25 AM

No he wasn't a liberal in the primaries.

You shit on him every day but you don't have clue one who he is. Try paying attention to what he has been saying and go back far enough to get some perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:08 AM

I don't think McCain will last until voting day. If he does, you Republicans oughta consider who his running mate is because whoever that is will end up becoming president.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:55 AM

I tell you what. He is so busy moving to the right, and making me angry about his pandering to the right, that he may well suppress my vote and make me stay home.

That is how angry I am at this 180.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:56 AM

What Mick said... The guy has to get elected, doesn't he and what he is showing in this campaign is that when he says he can work accross party lines is more than rhetoric as we are seeing it in this campaign...

What??? Do folks want another stubborn president who chizzeles every policy in stone and refuses to budge... We've had that and it doesn't work in solving problems... Just creates problems...

But apparently there are folks here who fault Obama for being what he says he is???

Hmmmmmmmm???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:56 AM

And the hypocrisy here is among those who say it is fine for Obama to lie to get elected, but not for McCain to lie to get elected.

That's just a heap of steaming bull dung.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:08 AM

"Try paying attention to what he has been saying and go back far enough to get some perspective..."


                      You don't have to go back very far to find where Obama was jumping on McCain about off-shore oil drilling. Now he's for it...

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:11 AM

". . . heap of steaming bull dung."

I don't believe that phrase has ever before appeared on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:13 AM

That aside, a guy'd have to be pretty naive to think anyone could get elected in North America by telling the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:34 AM

So what is happening is this. As Obama becomes more "electable" he also becomes more corrupted by the process itself.

Following this logic, that means that by the time Obama is actually elected in November, he and his political positions will become unrecognizable to those who leapt on his bandwagon in the last year, and certainly who voted for him in the primaries.

Because only a candidate who can be corrupted can be elected, Obama will be yet another opportunist politician who sold himself out in order to become the corrupt president-elect.

And this scenario is an improvement over Bush/Cheney how, exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:35 AM

And please, don't bother referring me to Obama's website for his "positions" on policies.

He has one set of positions for his web page, another set of positions on the stump, yet another set of positions for being interviewed by the media, and then there is what he will actually do as president.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:42 AM

OK Peace, I'll take you at your word. So why should we be appalled at McCain lying, but not at Obama doing the same damn thing?

Why the righteous indignation when McCain lies and "shifts positions" (nice sanitized euphemism I got from the NYT story), but when Obama does it, it's perfectly fine because it is what he has to do to get elected?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:08 AM

I'm of the opinion that it's just a little political expediency at work here.

Being as opposed to offshore drilling as he was, you would have thought that he prayed to a bottle of seawater everynight. I'm convinced that Pelosi and Harry Reid actually burn incense and candles over their saltwter fish tanks every night before they lay down.

But when the overwhelming majority of the American public says let's go and drill in these areas and that their pocketbooks are actually more important than a few caribou and a couple of bottlenose dolphins, Obama's speech turns faster than the face of a pimply faced teenager at a swimsuit contest.

Now he's ready to "compromise"?

It's just stinks of political expediency and shows that he's not a man held by the belief of his convictions. He's just there to be given over to the highest bidder.

I'm like Amos and Big Mick, DV. Don't let this lastest example get you down. It's all in the way you look at it. If you can justify it in your mind, then it must be ok.

But unlike Amos and Big Mick, DV, I do admire you for at least sticking to your convictions. You're probably one of the few posters here that are brave enough to do so.

I've told Amos before that I'd rather tell you the truth and hurt your feelings than to lie to you and make you feel better.

I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:16 AM

The majority of Americans are wrong, Obama and McCain both know it, and they are both pandering for votes, and selling out the future of the planet to do it.

I don't know if I can justify this one in the long run. We'll see. I'm furious about this capitulation by Obama.

I can condone all matter of trivial position flip flops in the name of electability and post-partisanship.

But some things aren't trivial--like war and the state of the environment. And both those things are inextricably linked in both our foreign policy militarism, and our domestic over-consumption of fossil fuels to provide energy for wasteful, extravagant lifestyles that aren't ecologically or financially sustainable.

You have to draw the line somewhere, and I tend to draw the line over the big issues that matter, like war and the environment.

Obama has backpedalled on the war considerably since announcing his candidacy, and even more since the primaries ended.

But this?

God, this is just appalling. Clinton was rightly demonized for pandering to voters over the gas issue during the primary.

This is a far more important matter than not taxing gas for a couple of months.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:45 AM

"So why should we be appalled at McCain lying, but not at Obama doing the same damn thing?"

I can't speak for 'we', but I can for myself. You shouldn't. Think back to the last administration that wasn't tainted by scandal, jail terms, etc. I am not in the mood to get into a scrap. So there's my answer. Have a great day.

My remark about the 'heap of steaming bull dung' was meant to be a compliment. Sheesh . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:51 AM

"You shit on him every day but you don't have clue one who he is. Try paying attention to what he has been saying and go back far enough to get some perspective."


JTS,

Fortunately, in this case, you don't have to go very far.


"The reason [our energy policy] doesn't change--you can take a look at how Dick Cheney did his energy policy. He met with environmental groups once. He met with renewable energy folks once. And then he met with oil and gas companies 40 times. And that's how they put together our energy policy. We've got to put the national interests ahead of special interests, and that's what I'll do as president of the United States."
Source: 2007 YouTube Democratic Primary debate, Charleston SC Jul 23, 2007


"Part of what the next president has to do is not just tell the American people what they want to hear, but what they need to hear"
Source: 2007 Des Moines Register Democratic Debate Dec 13, 2007


Those are just a couple among many.

I think the second one really says it all.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:55 AM

Obama flip flops list that puts him on this same page as McCain/Bush:

FISA

Offshore drilling

Iraq/Afghanistan/war on terror

NAFTA

Gun control

Capital punishment

Gay rights

As Amy Goodman said recently when asked by a Newsweek journo if Obama was a sell out:

"It may be the strategy of the Obama campaign to run to the middle, to attract the independents, the undecided. But he should look carefully at the lessons of the 2004 Kerry campaign. John Kerry made similar calculations, not wanting to appear weak on the war in Iraq. Uninspired, people stayed home. There are millions who care about the issues from which Obama is distancing himself"

Indeed. I was one of those who sat out the last election.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:59 AM

And BTW, the last administration that wasn't hopelessly corrupt was the Clinton administration. Not all that long ago, huh?

The Lewinsky scandal was muckracking scandal.

The far greater scandal is the scandal of the Democrats failing to being the leaders our republic needs.

These issues that Obama is using to politically pander to the right, are issues that speak volumes regarding his leadership capabilities.

Leaders don't follow the herd and act like the rest of the sheep. They take calculated, well thought out risks based upon what is right, not what will get them elected, or is politically expedient in the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:16 AM

The fact that this happened on a friday afternoon was no coincidence.

Anybody with any sense knows that if you have info that may be politically sensitive or info that may be damaging that must be let known to the general public....do it on Friday afternoon. The GP is heading into the weekend and will generally not remember it come Monday. So it makes sense that the following happened on Friday afternoon....

What Arrogance!

Then shortly after...Obama makes his political expedient decision.

You'd think they'd be on the same page at least.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:19 AM

Well, O will be your next president, so I think y'all better get used to it. News at 11:00.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:20 AM

No more arrogant than what Tom DeLay and Denny Hastert did when they were in power.

Sorry, that boat don't float, and most voters will see that they did protest too much. Grandstanding is still grandstanding, even with Pelosi at the helm.

The fact that the Democrats stalled the vote on offshore drilling until after the August recess doesn't reassure me.

They did the same thing with FISA before the Christmas recess, then came back and handed their heads to Bush/Cheney/McCain on a silver platter with the vote to give them every thing they wanted in the FISA bill.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:23 AM

I am so angry right now. I think you are probably right about Obama being the next president, but the difference is now (after this flip flop), I won't help him get elected with my vote, I don't want him to be president any more than I want McCain to be president.

And he won't be MY president either, just like Bush isn't my president.

Bush is the president of those who voted for him and Kerry, as far as I'm concerned.

Obama looks far too much like Kerry '04.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:23 AM

You are right. Now what next?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:29 AM

Well I'm not exactly excited about the prospect of McCain becoming the next CIC.

But I'm not quite as optimistic as you guys about the possibility of Obama becoming it either. In fact, the wheels of the Obama train are getting really loose and nobody seems to have the correct wrench to fix the problem.

It's gonna be a terrible crash.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:41 AM

What next?

I can only speak for myself, and my vote only counts as one vote.

But this decision by Obama has completely destroyed MY hopes and frustrated MY desire for authentic change with an Obama presidency.

So for me, unless Obama starts taking positions on the issues I care most about, the "what next" answer for me is: remove any and all expectations that Obama is authentic, or that he has the capability to truly lead the nation through this tremendously dark and frightening era, and to not bother wasting my time and energy and actually show up to vote for him.

I was already very suspicious of him because of his moving to the right before the offshore drilling decision.

It is pretty much the nail in the coffin for me. Now I have to try and imagine a scenario where I'd actually show to vote for him. Up until this weekend, I was able to do that. Now, I can't. I'll give it a couple of days. But I can't see changing my mind now.

This is one of the issues (along with the post-9/11 imperial war mongering and FISA) that is a non-negotiable one for me. I already don't trust Obama on nukes. This tells me my gut instincts about him regarding the energy crisis is right on. He is a Republican in Democrats clothes.

On the three issues I find most important, which I originally signed up to support Obama on, he has now capitulated, and taken the same position as Bush/Cheney/McCain.

So there is absolutely no reason for me to vote for him.

Period.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:45 AM

Sounds more than reasonable to me, DV.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:48 AM

"He is a Republican in Democrats clothes."

Goodness, I wouldn't go quite that far.

He still needs to change his position on tax cuts and entitlement programs for that to be even close to true.



YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:58 AM

There is still plenty of time for that before November.

Don't forget, Conservative...YES!!, it was Clinton who pushed through welfare reform and signed off on the Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:11 PM

DV, I understand your concern and feeling of betrayal. Yet I would hope that for all this man has to face to get elected (race, name) he is facing a spin machine being run by Rove's minions. Ultimately he changes nothing unless he can get elected and it is obvious to me he is doing what he must to do that, while simultaneously trying to change the game (ex: his response to the oil shortage ad and the Spears/Hilton ad). It is a tricky road this young man is walking and he is doing a pretty good job. Don't forget that campaigns and administrations are two different things.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:17 PM

Nope, sorry that tack won't work for me. Obama isn't doing a damn thing to change the game. Let me give you one glaring example of that: his flip flop decision not to take public financing.

Nothing changes when the system, the process AND the candidates are corrupt.

Nothing.

In a matter of months, Rove/Bush/Cheney will be completely out of the picture, regardless of whether we have a President Obama or a President McCain.

I don't have to enable the corruption to do my duty as a citizen. In fact, under these circumstances, I'm beginning to think the most patriotic thing to do is not vote, to protest the complete, utter corruption of it all.

It is a tricky road ANY presidential candidate walks, and you are simply playing the apologist game here in an effort to do damage control.

Obama is his own worst enemy, not Rove/Bush/Cheney/McCain.

He has gone beyond even what Kerry did to pander and sell out in 2004. At least Kerry didn't sell out on public financing.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:20 PM

And please don't read what I just said as an inflammatory accusation that you personally are an apologist for Obama.

I don't mean it in an inflammatory way, but I do mean that apologizing for Obama as a means of damage control is going on all over the web in the Democatic party and Democratic party leaning liberal blogs and media right now.

At some point, MY integrity as a citizen matters more than electing any sell out Democrat with a pulse does.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:24 PM

And to say that he should NOT be following the Kerry strategy of '04 is quite to the point. Kerry lost because he moved so far to the right and did so much pandering to the militarists (remember the convention salute and "John Kerry, reporting for duty" moment?) that he lost his base and the election.

So, what genius strategists are driving this donkey in the ditch for the Obama campaign?

Answer: the same pol hacks that polluted the Gore and Kerry campaigns.

Surprised? No.

Going to give them the benefit of the doubt again?

No.

Fool me once, and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:25 PM

And I'm taking a self-imposed time out from all this now, and going to enjoy my Saturday.

Thanks for the debate, folks!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:30 PM

What he said was:
"``What I don't want to do is for the best to be the enemy of the good,'' Obama, a senator from Illinois, said at a news conference today in Cape Canaveral, Florida. ``If we can come up with a general bipartisan compromise in which I have to accept some things I don't like, then that's something I'm open to.''

Politics, as someone said, is the art of the possible.