BS: Spirituality

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 05:32 PM

Oh my. Now el ted is really going to be ticked...

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 05:51 PM

Bengi is an immature and confused person, LH, mired in the quandaries of body-identity and unsure of hsi own physicality at that. Tor emedy this deep and agonizing confusion and th epain it inflicts, he has fixrd on male members and their male members as an obsession in the hopes this will "answer" the confusion and make it go away. It is a case of the cure being worse than the condition, as well as doing no real curing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 06:42 PM

Heh! I think Bengi oughta get some psychotherapy from Herr Liebenscheiss then. He's not ready to deal with the bears yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 07:43 PM

Jeri

I have the same numbness problem, right arm, right fingertips. I've found that a chinese product, ginko biloba (availabe in tablets or capsules from a chemist or health food shop) helps, as it works on circulation and gets blood to the far reaches of the bodý's universe. its also good for memory and brain function for the same reason.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 07:53 PM

real phenomena that we simply can't now, and perhaps never will, explain (Two Bears)

I haven't seen anything that's "unexplainable by today's knowledge" (Little Hawk)

Wolfgang (grin)


Well I've seen plenty that's "unexplainable" using today's scientific methods and technology. Science is not the same thing as knowledge though.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 08:37 PM

It all depends what you mean by "today's knowledge". When Wolfgang uses the phrase, it means one thing. When I use it, it means another. When Two Bears uses it, it might mean another.

There's a lot of knowledge out there, but people aren't all agreed on their interpretation of it.

They used to say "George has carnal knowledge of Mary", and it meant that he had had sex with Mary, therefore was aware of her in a physically intimate sense. It is my opinion that Wolfgang does not have carnal knowledge of Chi. Some people, however, do. (Chi being a form of vital energy.) Wolfgang HAS Chi, like everyone, but he is probably unaware of how to move it...or that it can be moved in order to heal another person, animal, or plant...or to heal oneself. That doesn't fit into his definition of "today's knowledge". It does fit into mine. It's totally obvious at this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 08:41 PM

LOL-- they called ME a proselytizer-- biggest buncha pontificators I've ever seen.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 09:55 PM

Chi is chinese for bullshit. If you're sick, see a doctor. Prayers, ginko biloba and chicken bones will do f*ck all to help.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 10:33 PM

LH, you'd recommend him over your Doktor Hahnhund?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 10:34 PM

Carnal Chi... I highly recommend it. (Never thought to put that kind of name to it though. I always called it 'energy sex'.)

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 11:29 PM

Who???? Benji, whatever it is you're on you either need more or you need to stop NOW!

Anyway, does anyone seriously deny that a person needs vital energy in order to operate? Hmmm? That vital energy is simply called Chi in China, Ki in Japan, Prana in India, and a whole bunch of other things in other places. Duh!

How do you get vital energy? By breathing, eating wholesome food, and drinking water...and by some other more subtle methods. I can't help it if you folks are incapable of subtlety. :-)

This is not prosetylization, because it's not a religion. It's a study of the energetic system in living creatures. Matter of fact, it's a form of science that was known in Asia back when the Europeans were still giving each other the evil eye and burning "witches".

Now go sit in a corner, stop breathing and see how long your Chi lasts. Then tell me there's no such thing. Or don't drink water for a few days and see. Chi = vitality. Healthy practices build up Chi, unhealthy ones deplete it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 04:26 AM

If you stop breathing you will die because your body needs oxygen in order to release energy to keep it working. If you stop drinking you will die because your body needs water for many of the processs that are vital to life. These processes are extremely well understood and therefor there is no need to use a vague concept like "chi" to explain why we need them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 07:18 AM

Well I've seen plenty that's "unexplainable" using today's scientific methods and technology. (daylia)

Do I see hubris here? Daylia, I may do you wrong, but your contributions didn't give me the impression you have a deep knowledge of science. So if you see something for which you do not find a natural explanation how do you come to the conclusion that there is no scientific explanation instead of saying that you know of none? And even if you know that there is no scientific explanation yet what makes you state that what you have seen is 'unexplainable' (instead of merely 'yet unexplained')?

Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it. (Samuel Johnson) (Who is this Johnson guy?)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 07:54 AM

Well ok Wolfgang, I know of no scientific explanation for the plenty I've seen that's "unexplainable". I know just enough science to have earned an honours BA in psychology. That included undergraduate level chemistry, biology, physics, analysis - but Stephen Hawkings I ain't!

Now pardon me if I'm wrong, but your contributions don't give me the impression you have a deep knowledge of either spirituality or life-force energy. In fact, I get the impression that (like most Westerners) you've never witnessed, experienced or even experimented with it, and so know you know diddley-squat about it.

So, if you see hubris here, maybe there's a bit stuck in your eyelashes?   ;-)

daylia

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 08:32 AM

oops I see a couple problems with my last post that may invite attack from an on-site scientist or two, so I'll attempt to correct them now if I may ...

That included undergraduate level chemistry, biology, physics, analysis

To clarify, by "analysis" I meant analysis of scientific research data - (variables, statistics etc). Those were NOT my favorite courses, but I did learn it well enough to earn a bronze medal and the highest grade-point average of any part-time student at WLU to date. (Not to boast, just to let you know I'm not exactly a scientific slouch)

In fact, I get the impression that (like most Westerners) you've never witnessed, experienced or even experimented with it, and so know you know diddley-squat about it.

I meant I get the impression you've never witnessed, experienced or even experimented with generating and directing mana (Hawaiian for chi. That's what HUNA is all about - also Reiki, pranic healing, acupuncture etc. Mastering personal chi is the discipline, the "secret" behind all those seemingly miraculous physical feats accomplished by martial artists as well (Karate, Jiu Jitsu, Kung Fu). You certainly don't have to look too far to find hard physical evidence of the kinds of things martial artists can do - just visit your local dojo. There's one on every street corner these days.

Of course you've "experienced" life-force energy itself or you wouldn't be here, and no one would have the pleasure of knowing you at all!

Ok, all set? Lock and load ....   ;-)

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 09:02 AM

Daylia,

you try the 'you too' approach and fail to see the big difference between the two of us:

Because I have no deep knowledge of Chi and other theoretical concepts in the realm of spirituality I never would even try to correct you or Two Bears or whoever when you speak about Chi. I never would make a statement like 'Chi cannot explain...' because I do not know enough.

I just beg you to do the same if you do not know. My issue is with your 'unexplainable' for that is a much too bold claim.

However, if someone speaks about what she has seen or read or heard, it is not clear from the onset which could be a good explanation for that experience. It is not even clear whether there can be only one single explanation. So if someone claims that a certain experience requires the assumption that Chi has been at work, I do not need to know anything about Chi to state that another explanation works too. I only need to know about the other explanation.

Which of (perhaps many) alternative explanations for one experience is better that's a completely different thing and is a very subjective evaluation.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 10:16 AM

Interesting article(sceptical) on chi here

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 11:28 AM

Good artical, and it makes clear some of the problems when discussing chi. People who seek to impress can often embellish things and give whatever their subject is a bad reputation. A quote from the artical: "Chi theory states that the function of the human body is based on a system of energy that circulates throughout all other existing systems and integrates with them all. There is no evidence that such a system exists."

'A system of energy... other than 'all other existing systems' is sort of like saying 'a thing other than all things', and is just a tad bit...'duh'. It also demonstrates a fundemental flaw some dubunkers can have: they don't WANT to see, so they don't try to understand, only find flaws. I don't believe in magical explanations, so I look for the earthly ones. I try to look a bit sideways at things.

I see chi as neurological 'energy', both chemical and electric, and the brain (and mind) is the most important componenent. People used to scoff when someone said they could slow their heartbeat, because it was controlled by the limbic system and couldn't be consciously affected. Well we DO have some conscious control. We can slow our heartbeats and respiration, expand or constrict blood vessels, releive or tolerate pain, etc. No one can yet explain exactly WHY a conscious mind can do these things, what the mechanism is, but it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:19 PM

I yet have to see one demonstration by a martial artist (in video or in reality) that is unexplainable by today's knowledge. A good start is the old book by Houdini, Miracle mongers and their methods, the last chapters about strongmen.

I have seen many things that are unexplainable by today's science happen under my hands.

1. I was at the laundry mat doing laundry, and I heard a lady (Tammy F.) scream outside. I went outside to ask her what was wrong. She said she had injured her hand at work two days before. Her index finger had been numb, and she had been unable to move her thumb for two days, and her doctor had reported that she HAD to have surgery to repair the tendons, muscles and nerves.

I picked up her laundry basket and carried it inside. After we got inside; I introduced myself as an energy healer, and offered to do a healing for her hand. She refused and said "I don't believe in any of that crap.". I said "if the energy does not help; it certainly will not hurt anything.". At this point she held her hand out. I did my deep breathing, then ggently held her hand between my hands, and I used the prayer picture of her using that hand to cut paper dolls for her daughter with a pair of scisors. About 30 seconds into the healing, she exclaimed "How do your hands get so hot?" I explained that it was the energy coming through me. About a minute into the healing' we both observed redness at the wrist, and began going up her arm. After sending energy into her hand for 3-4 minutes; I released her hand and asked how her hand felt. She moved her thumb gingerly and dropped her jaw in amazement. then she wiggled her thumb normaly and exclaimed "Damn! This is cool!" I defy you to define that by current science.

2. In 1980; I was diagnosed with a terminal disease, and was given 6-12 months to live. I went from riding a motorcycle to riding a wheelchair. I started directing this energy to my weakened back and legs. and 8 weeks later; I walked away from the wheelchair.

3. Last November I gave a HUNA workshop in Atlanta. Joy H (one of the attendees had injured her foot previously, and she appeared 70 years old. During one of the breaks; she asked me to do a healing on her foot. I did the deep breathing. and held her ankle. at first NOTHING happened. so I asked her what she enjoyed doing, and after a bit of coaxing; she smiled and said that she enjoyed dancing; so I changed the prayer picture from her walking pain free to dancing. After two or three minutes; there was a big smile on her face, and she said "Two Bears: I do not know what happened; but I felt something shift" Everyone saw Mrs. Hill Walk around the rest of the day pain free. After I finished teaching this spiritual technology; everyone received a healing. At the end of the day; Mrs. Hill appeared 20 years younger at the end of the day.

Both Daylia, and LH witnessed the incident with Mrs. Hill and more last November.

I can't take credit for the healings because I am NOT responsible for the healings. The higher powers, and the healee's subconscious (Unihipili) willing to receive a healing. The ONLY credit I can claim is gathering the energy and choosing a good prayer picture.

What I see there is a mixture of misdirection (make the onlooker overlook the vital details

That is your perception.

Aloha nui loa
2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:24 PM

Whether something is "unexplainable" or not depends on who is trying to explain it. :-) Ultimately, nothing is unexplainable.

I've seen things that I couldn't exactly explain...but that doesn't mean they are forever unexplainable, does it?

For instance, I can't exactly explain how those AFO's (alien flying objects) I saw in the late 60's manuevered the way they did...in a technical sense. I can't explain their technology, because I don't know anything about it. I'm sure they, however, can explain it just fine.

I've met people who can explain Chi just fine...and demonstrate how it works...in a manner that is physically perceivable through normal sense perceptions. The fact that there is a Guest here who is so ignorant of it that he can blithely state that it doesn't even exist means diddly-squat to me. He simply doesn't know anything about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:26 PM

Samuel Johnson obviously never observed the birth of any of his offspring (if he had any).

Hear Hear! I could not agree more.

Aloha nui loa
2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:33 PM

Chi is chinese for bullshit.

If you want to believe that; be my guest.

If you're sick, see a doctor.

Absolutely!

Prayers, ginko biloba and chicken bones will do f*ck all to help.

Obviously; you do not understand prayer.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:42 PM

Do I see hubris here? Daylia, I may do you wrong, but your contributions didn't give me the impression you have a deep knowledge of science. So if you see something for which you do not find a natural explanation how do you come to the conclusion that there is no scientific explanation instead of saying that you know of none? And even if you know that there is no scientific explanation yet what makes you state that what you have seen is 'unexplainable' (instead of merely 'yet unexplained')?

Daylia was referring to myself doing healings for her (from 2000 miles away), and my teaching her how to do energy work to punch a hole in a cloud three miles away. I defy science to explain punching a hole in a cloud, or remote healing.

I have been doing energy work for more than 30 years, and have a folder FULL of testimonials of remote healing, passing distance Reiki attunements, etc.

What part of the country do you live in? If you are nearby; (I live in Tennessee) you are welcome to come over and see my assorted certificates, and read some of those testimonials.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 03:21 PM

I've done the cloud thing too...but I didn't punch holes in them, I made them gradually vanish (over a period of say, a minute or two). I did it with smaller clouds, because I didn't have enough confidence to take on the big ones, so I just made little clouds vanish. This was way back in the late 70's. It takes focus and concentration. Anyone who's got those, plus a little confidence, can do it. Most people don't imagine they can do it, so they don't try it...or if they do (at someone's suggestion) they don't try it with any confidence whatsoever...and accordingly the results match their expectations...perfectly. Nothing happens. :-) It kind of works that way with most things in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 04:06 PM

Because I have no deep knowledge of Chi and other theoretical concepts in the realm of spirituality ...

Life force energy is not a "concept in the realm of spirituality". It is a very real and physical force, just like gravity - which is also invisible but very real. It's what makes you and I and trees and bears different than rocks, Wolfgang.

You don't need to be interested in spirituality at all to work with physical or mental chi. I've yet to meet a sensei (master/teacher of martial arts like Karate) who qualifies for sainthood. Physical and mental life-force energy or chi is the driving force behind accomplishments like chopping a cement block in half with one blow from a bare hand.

Martial artists generate a surcharge of physical life-force energy first (through exercise), then direct that energy toward their goal using simply will and intent. All that's required to chop a cement block in half with your bare hand is a reasonably healthy physique and a highly trained, disciplined and focused mind. Plus the willingness to work with an invisible force like life-force energy, of course.

But in order to work with spiritual life-force energy - which is infinitely more powerful than the physical or mental "voltages" - one is required to work on personal spiritual development, not just physical or mental.

I never would even try to correct you or Two Bears or whoever when you speak about Chi. I never would make a statement like 'Chi cannot explain...' because I do not know enough

Well good for you, Wolfgang! I do know that science has yet to produce the methods or technology necessary for studying life-force energy of any "voltage" level - physical, mental or spiritual. If such a technology had been developed and approved by scientific community, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?

Our kids would be teaching us about it.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: skarpi
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 04:33 PM

Halló all, I wanna say this , love him ,prey for him and most of all
things stay on to be his best friend, be there for him.
All the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 04:58 PM

You don't need to be interested in spirituality at all to work with physical or mental chi. I've yet to meet a sensei (master/teacher of martial arts like Karate) who qualifies for sainthood. Physical and mental life-force energy or chi is the driving force behind accomplishments like chopping a cement block in half with one blow from a bare hand.

Martial artists generate a surcharge of physical life-force energy first (through exercise), then direct that energy toward their goal using simply will and intent. All that's required to chop a cement block in half with your bare hand is a reasonably healthy physique and a highly trained, disciplined and focused mind. Plus the willingness to work with an invisible force like life-force energy, of course.

Ker-ist. I just can't stand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 05:21 PM

Ker-ist. I just don't under stand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 05:59 PM

USe the Force, TBPL. Use the Force. All will become clear to you!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 06:08 PM

But only if I believe it will ... where's Dumbo's feather when you need it ...

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 06:11 PM

An appropriate request....

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 07:07 PM

I've done the cloud thing too...but I didn't punch holes in them, I made them gradually vanish (over a period of say, a minute or two). I did it with smaller clouds, because I didn't have enough confidence to take on the big ones, so I just made little clouds vanish. This was way back in the late 70's. It takes focus and concentration. Anyone who's got those, plus a little confidence, can do it. Most people don't imagine they can do it, so they don't try it...or if they do (at someone's suggestion) they don't try it with any confidence whatsoever...and accordingly the results match their expectations...perfectly. Nothing happens. :-) It kind of works that way with most things in life.

I agree completely LH; my brother.

There are some of us that mess with the really BIG clouds.

Does anyone remember Hericane Lili that was a category 4 hurricane, and the weather experts were expecting Lili to go up to a category 5 storm when it was over the warm water in the gulf of mexico. Well the storm weakened to a category 2 storm within 24 hours after we started working on it. Before Lili reached land; it was downgraded to a tropical storm. That is a fact of history.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 09:44 PM

He that will enjoy the brightness of sunshine, must quit the coolness of the shade. - Samuel Johnson

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 10:01 PM

Well, that is certainly an intriguing quote...

Regarding belief and accomplishment...there are generally several things required in order to do something difficult.

1. Have the intention to do it.
2. Learn the technique through practice and discipline over a period of time. You start with easier stuff, move toward harder stuff.
3. Be in good enough health so that you have enough strength and energy available to do it.
4. Focus the mind properly on the task.
5. Believe...no, don't just believe, but KNOW you can do it.

Just belief alone is not enough. That's why it takes years of training and hard work to be a good martial artist, and why very few people can break a cement block with their bare hands. A few people can do it. They didn't get there just by believing they could, but belief is a important part of it.

It isn't a technique I have any facility in, because I have never practiced such a technique or aspired toward it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 11:38 PM

Big hot yellow thing in the sky today, and I don't care for it.

--LR Mole

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:16 AM

Little Hawk, did you pose for those sketches on the skeptical page link that the honourable Guest posted about China, Chi, and Chicanery.

Are you the one banging your head or the one Chiing your hotdog?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:25 AM

A guy said to Samuel Johnson, "Dr. Johnson, you smell!"

Johnson replied, "Incorrect, Sir, you smell me, and I stink!"

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 07:58 AM

This is an interesting article about Traditional Chinese Medicine, chi and the regulation of therapies like acupuncture in BC, Canada.

here's a quote - Traditional Chinese medicine and modern, science-based medicine are diametrically opposed when it comes to their platforms of investigation. Science-based medicine is based on knowledge (acquired through the scientific method) about physiology and the body's response to external factors, such as viruses or bacteria.

Conversely, traditional Chinese medicine follows the belief that every living thing contains a life-force called qi (pronounced 'chee'). Proponents of TCM believe qi flows through the body through a system of 12 meridians (or channels) that connect to different organs in the body...

In order to restore balance and health, doctors of TCM (as they will now be called in B.C.) employ a number of methods, including acupuncture, herbal medicine, Qigong, Tui Na and exercise therapy such as Tai Ji. TCM is purported to relieve a multitude of ailments, including chronic fatigue, arthritis, PMS, high blood pressure, bronchitis, acne...the list is considerable...

Oppel heads the Alternative Therapy Evaluation Committee, a free-standing evaluative body, and is also president of Canadians for Rational Health Policy, a group whose aim is to ensure that health policies are developed based on reliable scientific evidence. His qualms with so-called 'alternative' therapies like TCM stem from the lack of scientific evidence supporting their claims.

With any therapy, there's always going to be some effect on people's perception of their illness," he says, "but in terms of whether or not things are actually getting better from a biological point of view, that remains to be demonstrated."

Although I certainly understand the need for scientific methods of investigation and gov't regulation of traditional therapies like acupuncture, I highly suspect that part of Oppel's problem with alternative therapies is simply the racism that's been part of BC's history for well over a century.

I lived on Vancouver Island for the good part of a year, and sadly enough I witnessed that racism many, many times - even among my own family. :-( There is an ever-growing multitude of "Asian-Canadians" on the West Coast, and unfortunately they are still highly resented for taking precious jobs and business away from the whites, as they have been since the late 1800's.

About acupuncture - My life-long friend Mike ran a concrete business for years. Working concrete is very hard on the back. Last year he developed a sciactic nerve problem that was so bad he barely walk and couldn't even straighten his back. He looked like an old man, all hunched over in constant pain - and he's only 42. The doctors had him on so many drugs he couldn't see or think straight, and he was still in constant pain.

They could do little else for him - except recommend acupuncture. He took a couple treatments, and there was an improvement but he was still in constant pain.

Now Mike was never interested in anything "spiritual" and always teased me to no end about my interest in natural healing and energy work. But that pain was so bad last Christmas he finally called me in desperation and asked me to work on his back with HUNA.

So I called Two Bears and we both worked on him. I used HUNA to send him energy every day for about a week. He felt enough of an improvement within a day or two to stop taking the drugs, which was a good thing! I recommended that he continue with the acupuncture treatments to speed up the clearing of blocked energy from his nervous system, which he did. After two more treatments, the pain was gone. Absolutely gone! Mike was one happy camper, believe me. He will never doubt again the effectiveness of either HUNA or acupuncture.

Mike doesn't work concrete full-time anymore, but a friend twisted his arm a month ago to pour a basement as a weekend job. Mike couldn't turn down the money he was offered, and did the job - and came home with that sciactic nerve problem flaring up again. He suffered all weekend, finally called me on the Monday asking for help again. I worked on him with HUNA (at a distance), and he saw his acupuncturist the next day for a treatment.

The pain was gone by Tues night. I was over there the next morning, watching him chop wood, so happy for my friend!

Now, I suppose people like Oppel would discount Mike's experience. After all, they'd have to dissect his spinal cord before and after the treatments in order to "prove" scientifically that any kind of change had occurred - and that would certainly make him a paraplegic. They couldn't possibly just take Mike's word for it - his subjective experiences with his pain, the acupuncture and HUNA don't meet the rigid criteria of scientific investigation. While it's understandable from a scientific point of view, in real life this just seems so ridiculous!

Now Mike doesn't care one way or the other what scientists think - he just knows that HUNA and acupuncture did for him what the best of Western medicine could not. HUNA and acupuncture - plus a change of occupation - cured that sciactic nerve and relieved him of that horrible debilitating pain. He's back to his old self - off the heavy drugs, boating and hunting and chopping wood and gardening - without a twinge of pain in his back. He looks about 20 years younger than he did last Christmas.

WHen Western medicine finally catches up with the practical knowledge that's been around for thousands of years in Eastern cultures, that will be a VERY good thing!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:21 AM

Bengi - I don't know. I haven't seen the sketches. If it's a dashingly handsome guy who bears a strong resemblance to Bob Dylan in the late 70's (circa Street-Legal), then it could be me.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:25 AM

Why do we keep thinking of that Johnny Cash song?

First time I shot her I shot her in the side
Hard to watch her suffer
But with the second shot she died
daylia's gone, one more round daylia's gone

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:27 AM

That's "Delia". You an early riser, Bengi?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:36 AM

Early, where in the world are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:55 AM

Well the storm weakened to a category 2 storm within 24 hours after we started working on it. (Two Bears)

Post hoc ergo propter hoc? Unconvincing for many reasons.

I defy you to define that by current science. (Two Bears)

Two Bears, you are the one who claims that some things you report are unexplainable by today's science. That means you claim to have checked all possible explanations and found all of them wanting. So you could tell us which explanations you have checked by which methods and by which way you have convinced yourself that none of the many possible normal explanations doesn't fit.

I still have the impression you claim a knowledge upon that field which you do not have, My guess is that you use the word 'unexplainable' just for impression management and not as the end result of serious study. I wouldn't mind at all you saying you have witnessed something you do explain to yourself by the concept of Chi, but your use of the word 'unexplainable' is overbearing. You don't seem to have a clue what alternative explanations are possible.

I could list some explanations but to do so from afar has a big disadvantage: The probability to be far off is quite high. My experience is that quite often effects as they are reported are indeed unexplainable by today's science, but the effects as they have actually happened are often explainable. She who reports an effect with a certain frame of mind or prejudice can unwillingly distort the report according to her theoretical expectations.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 09:20 AM

And so can he, Wolfgang - especially when he's been culturally conditioned from first grade onwards to discount anything that Western science has yet to "prove".

Why are you so eager to support any explanation other than an "Eastern" or (heaven forbid!) a "spiritual" one? Especially when, by your own accounts, you have no knowledge or practical first-hand experience with either?

Please don't get me wrong - I have no personal interest in your opinions or your reasons for them. I just think it may benefit you to ponder my question, and I do enjoy helping others.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 10:16 AM

Sure, unexplainable phenomena happen all the time... and western science is always playing catch up... It is relatively new to the human condition, especially when compared to traditional Chinese anythings...

We all have a lot to learn.

What I find so offensive in some of this thread, is the use of 'tricks' to substatiate an individdle's 'in touchness' with superior powers. Any notion of personal superiority will not eminate from the personality of a Shaman... Arrogance and egotistic posturing are physical manifestations of dark energy and psychic poverty... definitely not from higher stages of enlightenment.

But what is most disturbing of all, is the psychopathic's tendency to try to use this self aggrandizing prattle to menacing ends. Yikes! It is so obvious!
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: freda underhill
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 10:37 AM

Our perceptions are influenced by our beliefs and fears. What appears offensive to one person is not so to another. Strong reactions indicate strong opinions, but they do not necessarily have any connection or relation to the person being reacted to.

That's why juries are told never to follow their "hunches" or gut instinct. Because those hunches are often emotional reactions and biases. None of us knows how shaman "should" behave (how many of us have met one?) - people have different attributes. Two bears has made it clear that he is not a guru, that he faciltates a process, and he does not charge money. So he does not have to be perfect. I am more suspicious of people who project as "holy" and saintly. They can be very manipulative.

who can cast a stone?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 11:30 AM

Can HUNA change the way bones are shaped?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 11:33 AM

(pronounced 'chee'). Proponents of TCM believe qi flows through the body through a system of 12 meridians (or channels) that connect to different organs in the body...

Daylia; my sister. There are 12 PRIMARY meridians, that supply ch'i to the organs. Heart, spleen, stomach, liver, etc. But there are hundreds of smaller meridians that transfer ch'i to the rest of the physical body.

In order to restore balance and health, doctors of TCM (as they will now be called in B.C.) employ a number of methods, including acupuncture, herbal medicine, Qigong, Tui Na and exercise therapy such as Tai Ji. TCM is purported to relieve a multitude of ailments, including chronic fatigue, arthritis, PMS, high blood pressure, bronchitis, acne...the list is considerable...

I have no disagreement with any of this material.

Oppel heads the Alternative Therapy Evaluation Committee, a free-standing evaluative body, and is also president of Canadians for Rational Health Policy, a group whose aim is to ensure that health policies are developed based on reliable scientific evidence. His qualms with so-called 'alternative' therapies like TCM stem from the lack of scientific evidence supporting their claims.

I wish to add two cents here.

1. In my opinion; anyone with medical problems should go to a medical doctor for diagnosis and medication, but after they do that there is nothing wrong with adding alternative healing modalities to speed up the process of healing.

2. If an alternative healing practitioner tells you to throw the medication away; RUN don't walk, and report them to the authorities.

About acupuncture - My life-long friend Mike ran a concrete business for years. Working concrete is very hard on the back. Last year he developed a sciactic nerve problem that was so bad he barely walk and couldn't even straighten his back. He looked like an old man, all hunched over in constant pain - and he's only 42. The doctors had him on so many drugs he couldn't see or think straight, and he was still in constant pain.

They could do little else for him - except recommend acupuncture. He took a couple treatments, and there was an improvement but he was still in constant pain.

Now Mike was never interested in anything "spiritual" and always teased me to no end about my interest in natural healing and energy work. But that pain was so bad last Christmas he finally called me in desperation and asked me to work on his back with HUNA.

So I called Two Bears and we both worked on him. I used HUNA to send him energy every day for about a week. He felt enough of an improvement within a day or two to stop taking the drugs, which was a good thing! I recommended that he continue with the acupuncture treatments to speed up the clearing of blocked energy from his nervous system, which he did. After two more treatments, the pain was gone. Absolutely gone! Mike was one happy camper, believe me. He will never doubt again the effectiveness of either HUNA or acupuncture.

Mike doesn't work concrete full-time anymore, but a friend twisted his arm a month ago to pour a basement as a weekend job. Mike couldn't turn down the money he was offered, and did the job - and came home with that sciactic nerve problem flaring up again. He suffered all weekend, finally called me on the Monday asking for help again. I worked on him with HUNA (at a distance), and he saw his acupuncturist the next day for a treatment.

The pain was gone by Tues night. I was over there the next morning, watching him chop wood, so happy for my friend!

Daylia: Thank you for reporting this incident.

WHen Western medicine finally catches up with the practical knowledge that's been around for thousands of years in Eastern cultures, that will be a VERY good thing!

Actually; the knowledge of thus subtle lifeforce energy was known all over the world.

Here are some of the assorted names used for it by assorted cultures.

akasha (Edgar Cayce), animal magnetism (Frank Anton Mesmer),ch'i or qi (China), chiah (Jewish Kabbalists), itaki (Pueblo Indians), ki (Japan), mana (Hawai'ians), manitou (Osage Indians), nuwati (Cherokee Indians), orenda (Seneca Indians), orgone (Wilhelm Reich), prana (India and Tibet), etc.

I just wanted the readers to understand the understanding and manipulation of lifeforce energy is not just something from the East.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 11:52 AM

Well the storm weakened to a category 2 storm within 24 hours after we started working on it. (Two Bears)

Post hoc ergo propter hoc? Unconvincing for many reasons.

Wolfgang: it is notpost hoc ergo propter hoc.

After you see things like this happen repeatedly; you lose doubt and know there is something to the direction of this energy.

Two Bears, you are the one who claims that some things you report are unexplainable by today's science. That means you claim to have

By todays accepted science? ABSOLUTELY NOT EXPLAINABLE!

The theory of quantum mechanics (when it becomes accepted) will explain this type of phenomena. Methinks you should read Dr. Stephen Hawking, Dr. Michio Kaku, et all. I would HIGHLY recommend you start with the book "Hyperspace" by Dr. Kaku then go from there.

I still have the impression you claim a knowledge upon that field which you do not have, My guess is that you use the word 'unexplainable' just for impression management and not as the end result of serious study. I wouldn't mind at all you saying you

Then; let's agree to disagree.

Apparently I will never convince you, and I know that you will NEVER convince me to deny the things that I have seen happen with my own eyes.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:05 PM

Can HUNA change the way bones are shaped? Hmm. Interesting question. My guess is that yes, it can, providing a large enough measure of Chi was directed at the area. I said that's my GUESS. I am merely theorizing about it. Nothing that we think of as solid is in fact solid at the subatomic level, but it appears solid to our sense perceptions. Therefore I suspect that subtle energy can be used to alter solid matter, including bones, by altering the energy patters which that apparently solid matter is made out of. It would require knowing how to manage that subtle energy in a focused enough way, that's all. Very few people have mastered such expertise, but I suspect such things have been done from time to time.

Why do you ask, Carol?