BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 10:48 AM

Kevin......Let me get back on track here by saying that we really don't hate each other, we hate you. I don't mean Brits in general, I mean YOU personally. I don't know all the reasons why we hate you Kevin except to say you just piss all of us off.

We took a poll though and if you'll post the word "Gorglesnorf" in your next post, all is forgiven. We can't remember what that "all" is but we'll forgive it and we'll happily love you.

Until then.......Fuck-Off


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 10:58 AM

Amos,

I disagree. Although Glen Beck does weem to provide a little more factual basis for his rants than you have, recently.



Greg F,

Another attack on a person who presents something you disagree with, as opposed to a reasoned comment on the facts. You seem determined to prove my point:

"Just stop insulting and bullying the people who don't happen to agree with you about some issue or another."

He can't do that.

Since he has no valid basis to defend his own opinions, nor to attack the opinions of others, he is forced to attack the people who disagree with him.

Or at least that is what is to be derived from his past posts.


Compared to the central (ie, the high point of the bell curve) there is both a far Left and far Right. To deny either is to ignore reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:02 AM

Oh, pot! Oh, kettle!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:27 AM

"Surely it is all a factor of the phenomenon that the United States (within which concept I include the pre-1776 colonies) have always been noted for a lack of any moderacy, leading to that basic mismatch between aspiration and achievement which meant that the The Land Of The Free And The Home Of The Brave was predicated and founded on an unshakeable base of genocide and slavery."MtheGM

piffle

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:37 AM

...as opposed to a reasoned comment on the facts...

Soon as you present some facts, Bruce, I'll be glad to comment on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 12:21 PM

PIFFLE,
Dear Ebbie?

Why ~
You will make me cry ~~

Piffle?!?
SNIFFLE!!!

xxx~M~xxx

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 12:39 PM

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 12:49 PM

I can think of a few differences between the American and British political systems that partly account for the difference.

First, there's our arcane election system. It's almost inevitable that the losing side will feel that it's been cheated somehow. In presidential elections, our electoral college makes it possible for one candidate to win the popular vote and still lose the election.

(In Britain, it's also possible for one party to win a majority of seats in Parliament without getting a majority of votes nationwide, but Britons don't seem particularly concerned about this.)

The fact that every state makes its own election laws makes us all suspicious that sleazy practices in another state will affect us all. (In Britain, the fact that election procedures are uniform apparently gives everyone confidence that everything's working right.)

And since there is no national supervision of election procedures, practices in some areas CAN be sleazy. (But most people seem to support the system in their own state.)

Our elections are held more frequently—every two years for congress, every 4 for president—and our candidates can spend an unlimited amount of money over an unlimited span of time—which means we are in an almost perpetual state of fundraising and campaigning. Lobbying groups and "swift-boater" groups can also spend an unlimited amount trying to influence elections, politicians, or public opinion.

Legislation often gets hung up on procedural matters. Bills can pass one house but not the other, or they can pass both houses and then be vetoed by the president. Or they can be enacted into law and then be declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. Whichever side loses is bound to cry "foul!"

The British system seems simpler. The House of Commons seems to be the only house that matters (I don't really understand what the House of Lords does nowadays.) and whichever party is in the majority seems to be able to do whatever it wants, with no constraints except their own consciences and whatever regard they have for public opinion. The losing side, the opposition, seems to accept its position more graciously than in the US.

In other words, in the US, people just don't seem to have confidence in the fairness of the system. There never seems to be a "clean" win and loss—none that the losing side ever accepts without protest, anyway. They keep saying and thinking: We should have won—we would have won if only the election had been run fairly—if only the other side hadn't lied and cheated—if only the media had let us tell our side of the story properly—if only they hadn't "bought" the election—if only they hadn't pulled that sneaky procedural trick—if only the public knew the truth about Obama's birth certificate—if only they had interpreted the constitution properly, and so on.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 12:53 PM

So it were lefties who spit on the black Congressman and who shouted "nigger" at several black Congressmen... I guess it was these same lefties who called a gay Congressman a "faggot"???

Man, ya' learn somethin' new everyday???

BTW, I don't buy that mythology... When I was organizing anti-war demonstrations in the late 60s we had a couple of rightie-plants and they stuck out like a sore thumb... So we asked them to leave...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:02 PM

Bobert:

"So it were lefties who spit on the black Congressman and who shouted "nigger" at several black Congressmen... I guess it was these same lefties who called a gay Congressman a "faggot"???t:"

I don't understand Bobert (I'm in UK). Are you saying *elected political representatives* did these abusive things, or that these were examples of racist *public* abuse of congressmen?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:06 PM

"there is no national supervision of election procedures,"

There isn't? How can Democracy work properly unless there is a universally agreed and universally employed system for vote gathering?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:10 PM

Greg F: "FAR LEFT? You wouldn't know the "far left", Bruce, if it reared up on its hind legs and bit you on the ass."

GfS: Bruce, You'll have to forgive Greg F. He maintains that Obama is 'right of center'...according to his earlier post.

Richard Bridge: "Fugitive from sanity, your paranoia is showing."


"By Richard Wolf, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON —
It won't be the last threat Bowles gets this year as he directs an 18-member, bipartisan commission through an ocean of red ink that has never been deeper or more foreboding.

Under Obama's budget plan, the USA's debt in 2020 would be nearly the size of the entire economy then. Interest costs would be $900 billion, five times today's level."

GfS: Richard,...Enough said?????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:16 PM

Actually folkies, if anyone felt inclined to discuss the differences between US and UK politics - either here or on another thread - it would make for a fascinating and most illuminating debate! At least for someone like me, as I don't really know how you do things over there.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 02:15 PM

McGrath, hate is a matter of interpretation. The Irish would be justified in asking why
Mother England hated them so much?

Today, in America, there is fear at the helm. It's what FDR warned us about.
The hate is really about fear. Would you say that the BNP is not about hate?

People all over the world have their fears and hatred, not just America. Why do some English hate the Muslims and East Indians? Rhetorical question. Answer: Fear.

This is a loaded post with an assumption that America is a country where all Americans hate each other. This certainly is painting with a generalized brush.

Americans live in a country that has democracy as an ideal, therefore, not every American agrees with other American. There is bound to be some enmity somewhere. But this is true of every other country in the world.

We are, however, seeing unprecedented violence in our country today and a climate
that could breed fascism. This is because Americans are used to having a middle class which is being eroded. Also, corporations and bankers and GOP political leaders are exploiting Americans and encouraging the enmity among certain disenfranchised Americans.

I don't think, though, that hatred here is any more pronounced than it is in Britain, or South and Central America or Africa or India and Pakistan or....or....or.

I think that violence has reached a worldwide epidemic. As long as violence and intimidation are used to resolve problems, we will not see anything but this hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: kendall
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 02:33 PM

Lack of old fashioned respect and manners.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 02:33 PM

""While there might be *some degree* of cross-over between Conservative voters and CofE types, on the whole people in the UK prefer to keep politics and religion distinct, and the extremism and rage evident in the so-called Christan Right simply isn't there. But then neither is the Christian extremism, which is perhaps where the "political hatred" arises from in the first place?""

Right CS, and it's rather a strange reversal, if you examine it.

In the USA, where the Constitution specifically separates religion from government, you have the "Christian Right" peddling hate, and trying to force educators to teach their twisted version of human origin and development, and also, having a significant effect on the way the country is run (through the likes of Bush).

In the UK, where the Church of England is the Established National Religion, that Church (with the exception of a few Bishops in the House of Lords) pretty much keeps its nose out of government.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:07 PM

""The British system seems simpler. The House of Commons seems to be the only house that matters (I don't really understand what the House of Lords does nowadays.)""

The House of Lords, used to be occupied by hereditary Peers of the realm (hence the name), and was reformed by the Blair government to remove most of the Lords and replace them with New Labour appointed Peers.

It is our upper chamber of government, and its purpose, now and in the past, is to balance the potential excesses of the Government of the day.

All government legislation is examined by the Lords, and amendments suggested, where they feel that said legislation is badly drafted. They will also, on very rare occasions, actually refuse to pass a piece of legislation which they consider ill advised in toto.

Ultimately, the government can override the Lords by use of a device called the Parliament Act, but usually it is persuaded to make changes, to avoid delay in enacting new legislation.

I guess you would call it a safety valve which protects the public from bad Law, though bad 'uns still slip through (Public Entertainment Licencing 2003).

Hope this helps.
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:15 PM

"It is our upper chamber of government, and its purpose, now and in the past, is to balance the potential excesses of the Government of the day."

I'm a socialist (or redd commyunist sophialsit if you prefor Teablagger sperling), but I see a value in this system. Mainly because I see downfalls in short-term democracy which require long-term adjustment.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge on the dark side
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:46 PM

Fugitive "why is the left, posing as them, to do mischief, to discredit them".

That paranoia.

Yes, Crow Sister, it was other members of the Congress or Senate.

There is (as well as Parliament Act procedure, which only applies to Commons bills, with the result that the Licensing Act, a Lords bill, could have been defeated in the Lords if the conservatives and Lib-Dems had both kept their nerve) also the Salisbury Convention a constitutional convention in the United Kingdom which puts forward that the House of Lords will not oppose the second or third reading of any government legislation promised in its election manifesto.


It does indeed seem that there is a need to moderate the dictatorship of the majority, but neither the UK nor the USA seem to ahve got it right, as the excesses of the THatcher years and the Bush and Reagan years show.

What seems to be happening in US politics now however is a slumcult demand that there be no intelligent ideas intelligently expressed - as the insult "policy wonk" demonstrates. I don't think it's quite that bad in the UK yet, but "Dave-ishness" has already hamstrung the head boy of Eton.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:07 PM

Of course, maybe we should be comparing Europe with the USA. Lots of Brits hate the French just because...

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:13 PM

The answer is that we are all cads and bounders, and smart and sensitive enough to know it.

It's a freedom thing... ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:23 PM

Richard Bridge: "It does indeed seem that there is a need to moderate the dictatorship of the majority,"

Yes, what J.S.Mill called the "tyranny of the majority". The ideal balance for me probably resides somewhere between Mill & Marx. I don't know where on earth that balance between common and individual interest has been managed, but certainly not in the UK or USA that's for sure. At least the UK in general are not deluded about it though, while I feel (from what I see on telly) that the USA ensure as far as possible that Mr. & Mrs. Dave are stupid, brainwashed & sedated enough to do as required...

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:40 PM

"Of course, maybe we should be comparing Europe with the USA."

Umm, or maybe no, we'd have to compare like Germany or France or Italy or Spain or Holland or Etc. Etc. something with the USA. Lots of funny countries in that "Europe" landmass, all with their own funny ideas, history and languages and stuff! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:52 PM

So far as I can see Dave Cameron's politics seem pretty well the same as Barack Obama's on most issues. Which is why "far left" seems such a very peculiar term to use.
........................

I wasn't suggesting that all Americans hate each other, just that there seems to be a significant minority who appear to erupt into levels of hate that just seem out of proportion to the actual political issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Genie
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:54 PM

I don't think Americans in general really hate each other much, especially on political or religious grounds.

I do think, however, that fear-based and ignorance-based hatred is being deliberately aroused and used for political and monetary gain by some of the big power brokers. Our media have become much closer to monopolistic ownership, and that ownership, by big trans-national corporations naturally side with the 'fiscally conservative' Republicans. Those powerful interests also figured out, several decades ago, that if they could convince religious conservatives (e.g., evangelicals) to side with them, the two logically unconnected blocs could together win elections. So you have major radio station corporations unwilling to air any political talk except far right wing talk; corporate sponsors basically effecting censorship of real news, especially if the "news" might be bad for their business; very wealthy televangelists preaching that greed is good; and media messages ad infinitum equating Wall Street's status with the standard of living of the masses.

Political shock jocks like Rush Limbaugh and, even moreso, Michael Savage and Glenn Beck, as well as political media darlings like Ann Coulter, Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman, etc., spew venomous epithets ("traitor," "fascist," "terrorist," "communist," etc.) and lies ("death panels," etc.) about just about anyone who happens to be a Democrat or even moderately liberal. Sometimes it's for political gain, but often it's for ratings and publicity.

Our Constitutional guarantee of "free speech," coupled with the deregulation of our mainstream media ownership, allows what is truly "hate speech" to be broadcast more widely and readily than might be the case in some other democracies.

I do think the hate is mainly coming from the right, and not from the majority of those on the right, either. But the very vocal minority gets a disproportion of media attention, partly because they say and do things that ARE outrageous.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:55 PM

"It's a freedom thing... ;>)"

Damn right it's a 'freedom thing' Amos.
Education & information is what freedom is all about.

However, British people are generally more cynical about politics & politicians, and frankly I think that's an *essential* stance and not a smug superior one as your post *appears* to imply.

Ever glad to be a dissentor.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:58 PM

'Dissenter'

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:09 PM

Americans (appear) to hate one another so much (whenever political issues come up) for one simple reason: Their 2-Party system. They have been affected by it from the very earliest age, and it sets them at each other's throats and permanently divides them against one another.

This is also true in many other countries, but it seems to be particularly bad in the USA where there is no effective third or fourth party to dilute the focus a little.

It's like the Crips and the Bloods. An eternal rivalry of two huge partisan gangs who detest each other, hold each other in contempt, are out to destroy each other (politically speaking). They each live determined to vanquish the other utterly, they each assume that the other represents all kinds of evil and corrupt forces, and they are virtually incapable of getting along with one another when they discuss politics.

I've seen that happen in other societies too, but I've never seen it so bad as it is now in the USA.

Solutions? Yeah, I have a solution that works for me. I don't live in the USA. Another good solution (if you do live there) would be to talk about music or gardening or something instead of politics....if you want to enjoy yourself, I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:16 PM

Most don't. Sure is good press, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:19 PM

""Solutions? Yeah, I have a solution that works for me. I don't live in the USA. Another good solution (if you do live there) would be to talk about music or gardening or something instead of politics....if you want to enjoy yourself, I mean.""

Isn't that rather the "Politics of Despair" LH. When you see your country taking a disastrous path, just leave, or ignore it and concentrate on enjoying yourself.

Pretty much what happened to the Roman Empire, I'd've thought, and a pretty dumb policy.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:24 PM

However, British people are generally more cynical about politics & politicians, and frankly I think that's an *essential* stance and not a smug superior one as your post *appears* to imply.

Yeah but we can be smug because we're Americans and are proud to be superior in most every way to the rest of the world. We use more shit and waste more shit than anyone else on earth and we're damn proud of it. If we lived here and weren't so egotistic and wasteful, we'd be Canucks and who the hell wants that?


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:34 PM

Why do Americans hate one another so much? We don't. The Tea Party people and other, similar, groups in all parts of the socio-political spectrum represent, in toto, a very minute part of the US population. But I am always amused at the way the Yank Haters/Baiters come out of the woodwork in threads like this to describe us in ways that we can't recognize.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:42 PM

I do despair of politics in the USA, Don, and that's no lie.

I'm not suggesting you should, however. You're an American, aren't you? I'm not. I was born in Canada. It is no great emotional trauma for me to live somewhere else than in the USA. Since you are an American, you naturally have a deep committment to the USA that I don't.

Some people, however, do wash their hands of politics and they look for other ways to find meaning in life, and that's OKAY. You may recall that Bob Dylan and Joan Baez fell out over that very issue. He expressed it as, "You think you can change the way the world is, and I know that no one can." He sought meaning in personal creativity and other directly personal matters. She sought meaning more in social and political action.

The temptation is to insist that one of them was right and the other was wrong, but that's not the way I see it. I think they were both right from their own point of view as it applied to them personally.

What I mean is, they both did exactly what came naturally to them. Joan was deeply interested in political action, and that was perfect for her. Bob wasn't interested in it at all (after around mid-'64), he was interested in other things entirely, and that worked perfectly for him.

It's good to see people do what fits their own nature, rather than doing what someone else with an outside agenda thinks they "should do".

I think both Joan and Bob did exactly the right thing...for Joan and Bob...and what they did was diametrically opposed when it came to politics and social action.

Just because I despair of politics in the USA doesn't mean you should. Nor does it mean I shouldn't. We weren't born from the same blueprint.

There isn't just one right way to be in life, Don, and if there was...well, you'd have a world full of very predictable robots instead of a world full of unique and interesting people.

Canada is still a pretty moderate place. I do not yet despair of politics in Canada...but I don't expect much of it either! ;-) It's not where I place my hopes and dreams, that's for sure. I KNOW in my very bones that no Canadian political party is ever going to solve the essential problems, answer the essential questions, or provide the essential solutions. Not a chance. But I do give thanks that they tend not to go to really ridiculous extremes...

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Genie
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:01 PM

Little Hawk, yes, the 2-party system does contribute. But at least until the election of Bill Clinton, I don't remember the partisan animosity being as great as it is now. The anger in the '60s and '70s was more generational and about the Viet Nam war than it was Republican v. Democratic Party.
At other times anger is directed at the incumbent party because of hard economic times (e.g., the gas rationing of the 1970s).
But I don't remember being as upset about my party losing a governorship or a seat in Congress or the Presidency until 2000 and 2004, when there were so many problems with our voting "system" and the true outcome of the election was questionable. Even after GWB was installed by the SCOTUS, I think most Americans were willing to accept him -- especially right after the 9-11 attacks.    But the more we have had high-profile figures like Dick Cheney (and now his daughter) and the media shock jocks I mentioned before spewing wild, hostile accusations about the opponent party, the more the animosity has grown.

For me, I still don't feel hatred towards Republicans or "conservatives" in general. But I have to admit that when I hear Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachman or Liz Cheney making outrageous accusations about Obama and the Democrats, my gut reaction is one of real anger and disgust.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:14 PM

describe us in ways that we can't recognize.

Maybe sometimes your own lack of self- recognition is part of the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge on the dark side
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:19 PM

Couple of good posts Genie.

Back shortly

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:22 PM

Don Wyziwig is of Irish descent but English

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:23 PM

It has definitely gotten much worse since some time during the mid-Clinton years, Genie. You're quite right that "The anger in the '60s and '70s was more generational and about the Viet Nam war than it was Republican v. Democratic Party."

I always did notice that there was this huge divide in American society over the bipartisan thing, though. We have something similar in Canada over the 2 largest parties (the Liberals and the Conservatives), but it's far more muted in expressing itself than what occurs in the USA. That's probably partly just because Canada is a more muted society in a general sense...Canadians tend to be moderate in expressing their political passions. I think it may also be because we have a lengthy tradition of a viable 3rd party here, so it isn't just a simple "us against them" proposition here.

The lines are not so clearly drawn in Canada, nor are the differences of opinion so acute.

Other notable differences: The so-called Religious Right barely even exists in Canada. Abortion is not a major issue here. Neither is gay marriage. We are not a superpower. We do not play a major role in the destinies of other nations. We don't have tens of thousands of nuclear weapons.

Given the fact that our role in the world is fairly modest, the issues at stake in our political campaigns do not stir such strong emotions in the electorate. What most often drives strong emotions in people, after all? Fear does. Nobody in the world is afraid of Canada. ;-) Virtually everyone in the world either fears the USA...or regards the USA as a bulwark against someone else in the world whom they fear. Or both at the same time. The USA is in the postion that Rome once was. That means there's a "life or death" sort of quality to major American political issues, just as there was with Roman political issues, and that drives the rhetoric to more and more extreme levels.

You see....not too many people back in 100 A.D. worried what the Illyrians were up to....but everyone worried about what Rome was up to...and the craziest place you could possiby be in, politically speaking, was the City of Rome itself where all that massive political power played itself out daily.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:26 PM

LH, the UK has had a two party system since (without looking it up) about 1920. Regrettably you are doing your credibility less than justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:30 PM

Crow sister,

Yes, a member of the Tea Party did spit on a black congressman... Members of the Tea Party did yell "nigger" at several black congressmen and yes, members of the Tea Party yelled "faggot" at a gay Congressman...

Now the righties are ashamed and so they have invented a story where by lefties infiltrated the Tea Party and carried out these acts... That is pure mythology on their part...

LH,

As for Dylan??? I love his music but he was a AWOL in the 60s and early 70s on issues ranging from Civil Rights to the anti-war movement... Hey, it's one thing to write the songs but if yer not willing to take any additional steps then something wrong... I mean, Dylan was totally into himself and couldn't have cared less about helping to promote causes that his songs suggested had some feelings about... I mean, it wouldn't have hurt him one bit to show a little engagement with the causes of those where were buying his music...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Joe_F
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 07:08 PM

So much as who?

So much as Protestants & Catholics hate each other in Northern Ireland? So much as Greeks & Turks hate each other in Cyprus? So much as Sunnis & Shiites hate each other in Iraq? So much as Jews & Arabs, Hutus & Tutsis, oh, the hell with it. Despite much trying, no-one as yet has managed to convert the US to an ethnic pest zone. I won't go so far as to say it can't happen here, but I can think of several reasons to say it isn't likely.

Stopping short of smugness, we may very reasonably count our blessings.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 08:03 PM

"Despite much trying, no-one as yet has managed to convert the US to an ethnic pest zone." ~ Joe F

That maybe a profound statement, perhaps not.

Can the author please translate into plain English.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 08:17 PM

Joe_F: I don't think the original question was meant to compare Americans to Hutus & Tutsis. I think it was meant to compare American Democrats & Republicans to British Labor & Conservatives.

Americans are good at noticing that there are many places that are worse than America.

If there was a place where some things were done better, would we even notice?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 09:26 PM

Richard, I was not talking about the UK. I was talking about Canada. We've had a 3 or 4 party system in Canada for my entire lifetime. Of those 3 or 4 there have always been 2 dominant parties (Liberals and Conservatives (formerly PCs), but the smaller parties have also played a key role in forming coalitions and influencing government policy. We owe the creation of our Canadian health care system to iniatives pioneered and advanced by a 3rd party...the former CCF, now called the NDP.

Bobert - Everyone does what they are best suited to. Van Gogh painted. Dylan wrote songs. Baez used her great talents to advance progressive social and political philosophy. Each person does what their spirit moves them to do, and that's just fine with me, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. I think Bob made a great contribution writing the songs he did, and that's good enough for me. He would have been totally miserable doing what you seem to have wanted him to, it wouldn't have suited him at all, he'd have felt out of place and uncomfortable, and it wouldn't have worked. Fortunately, like Joan, he had the guts to follow his own vision, not to be ruled by the voices of others in his ears who'd have been only too happy to use him in the way they thought "best"...

You know how hard Bob tried to escape wearing that mantle of "leader of the movement" and "social prophet", Bobert? He did anything possible to escape it, because it would have destroyed him. He hated being stuck with that label.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Genie
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:08 PM

Bobert: "Given the fact that our role in the world is fairly modest, the issues at stake in our political campaigns do not stir such strong emotions in the electorate. What most often drives strong emotions in people, after all? Fear does. Nobody in the world is afraid of Canada. ;-) Virtually everyone in the world either fears the USA...or regards the USA as a bulwark against someone else in the world whom they fear. Or both at the same time. The USA is in the postion that Rome once was. That means there's a "life or death" sort of quality to major American political issues, just as there was with Roman political issues, and that drives the rhetoric to more and more extreme levels."

Good point.   I do think that a lot of the hate-filled rhetoric today stems from the defensiveness some people have about the possibility that (shudder!) we Americans may not "have the best health care system (or educational system, or whatever) in the world" any more (even if we once had).      It is very scary to deal with loss like that, and sometimes the best defense seems to be a good offense.   


Jim Dixon: "Americans are good at noticing that there are many places that are worse than America.

If there was a place where some things were done better, would we even notice?"

Probably not. In some ways there clearly already are. That's a very hard pill for some people to swallow. Especially when you've tagged "the others" with alienating labels like "socialist," "communist," "elitist," etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: GUEST,MarkS(on the road)
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:35 PM

Bobert
Has anybody come up with a tape or video of the spitting/name calling incident yet? I kind of remember several organizations were trying to get some documentation, but did not have any luck.
Not that I care much, but it sort of ties in with stories in the past few days about groups planning to "infiltrate" Teapary meeting and acting outrageously in order to make them look bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:41 PM

Pessimism is the bodyguard of socialism.
Figure is out, as to why.


Little Hawk: (yo-ho) "Solutions? Yeah, I have a solution that works for me. I don't live in the USA. Another good solution (if you do live there) would be to talk about music or gardening or something instead of politics....if you want to enjoy yourself, I mean."

Amen..Bravo! and well said!!!

All this bickering is really for nothing..and if you notice how those with little or no information, just accuse others of hatred, bigotry, racism, blah blah blah! Then offer NOTHING whatsoever!!

Play music, write music, pray music. Make the place better...but first, for Christ sakes, quit bitching!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Genie
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:49 PM

Mark, while it's possible that some outrageous acts "on the part of" ANY group have been done by infiltrators (or just by opportunists who have no real connection with the groups), if we are to require videotape of an incident before we can accept that it happened, there are going to be a lot of convicted criminals being set free. : )

Where's the videotape of Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols plotting the Oklahoma City bombing? (Just to mention one example.)

An ordained minister who is a Congressman says he was spat upon by a protestor. Extremists on all sides of the aisle have done worse, and even some of our elected officials are calling for citizens to be "armed and dangerous" (Michelle Bachman). There are posters of Obama depicted in all sorts of racist, damning ways. Why is it hard to believe that some jerk went so far as to spit on a Congressman?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Genie
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:51 PM

Ah, GfromS, your words of wisdom are SO reassuring! ;D

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Janie
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:52 PM

Well said, Stringsinger.

Very well said, indeed.