BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 12:26 PM

,,,,,I have noticed with trepidation in recent years the trend toward turning verbs into nouns, adjectives into nouns, nouns into verbs... and similar eccentricities.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

In fact this has always happened: "Grace me no grace and uncle me no uncle". "He out-Herods Herod".

I regard such flexibility as one of the glories of English.


You have to use jello, because jelly over there means jam, so you don't have a proper word for jelly, do you?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 12:41 PM

"Companies, of course, are delighted when their product..(Kleenex, Jello in the US) become synonymous with a class.... " Bill D

Not necessarily so, Bill- many a company has gone to court to protest and protect their trademark. Among them, I believe, have been Xerox, Aspirin and Kleenex.

"Conversely, trademarks that are distinctive and have qualified for trademark protection may lose that protection by becoming generic in the mind of the public. This transition happens when a substantial segment of consumers in the relevant market adopt a trademark as the general name for an entire line of products. Examples of once distinctive trademarks that have since become generic include aspirin, cellophane, escalator, and thermos. The trademark owners of Kleenex, Xerox, Sanka, and Teflon have successfully prevented their marks from becoming generic, despite many consumers' strong identification of their individual products with the product lines as a whole."

Lanham Act of 1946



OTH, maybe Bill's tongue was in cheek? Sorry...

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 01:41 PM

"Knock me up at eight" from a British lass may be misunderstood on the west side of the pond.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 02:03 PM

But appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 03:18 PM

THE SCENE:

Somewhere in England during World War II. Some American troops are stationed at a British army camp while waiting to be deployed to the continent. Their orders could come at any time, so they couldn't be given leave, but in the meantime, they had nothing to do, so they were ordered to attend a series of lectures on British army ordnance. These lectures were mainly just to fill time, and a side-effect of this general inactivity was immense boredom

One of these lectures was on the parts, disassembly, nomenclature, and maintenance of the British Enfield rifle. The lecture was being delivered by an old career British Army sergeant. After field-stripping the rifle, describing each part in detail, and discussing its proper care and maintenance, the old sergeant came to the remaining part, the stock.

"And this," he intoned, "is the stock of the British Enfield rifle. It is generally made of h'oak, h'ash, or 'ickory. And it is often made of—"

A hand went up in the back. The old sergeant recognized this particular young Yank because over the past few days, he had shown himself to be a bit of a smart-ass, verging on insubordination and general disrespect.

"A question?" said the sergeant, glowering.

"Yes," said the young Yank. "When you say 'h'oak, h'ash, or 'ickory,' don't you really mean 'oak, ash, or hickory?'"

The old sergeant's eyebrows Veed into a frown and his ample mustache bristled.

"Young man," the old sergeant said, "'h'oak, h'ash, or 'ickory,' is what I said, and 'h'oak, h'ash, or 'ickory,' is what I meant! To continue, if I may. The stock of the British Enfield rifle is also frequently made of a fourth wood called lignum vitae, or h'ironwood. Lignum vitae is very 'ard and h'oily, therefore it was h'often used as planking in ships and as piles for the piers—   And by the way, for the benefit of the young h'American who asked, when I say 'piles for the piers' I am not referring to 'emorrhoids for the hhhh'aristocracy!!"

Don Firth

[Collected, in the mid-1950s over a couple of beers in the Blue Moon tavern, from fencing buddy, brilliant raconteur, and good friend, Chuck Canady, who had a million of 'em.

I mean, when it comes down to it, jokes ARE folklore.]

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 10:06 PM

"..many a company has gone to court to protest and protect their trademark. "

Ah yes...to prevent others from USING their trademark name! All *I* meant was that they are quite happy to hear folks saying.."Oh dear...we need more Kleenex...or Jello." ..etc.

------------------------------------

"...because jelly over there means jam, so you don't have a proper word for jelly, do you?"

au contraire, mon ami! Jelly does NOT mean jam. There is jelly, jam, preserves... and Jello.

    In jelly, the fruit comes in the form of (only) fruit juice.
    In jam, the fruit comes in the form of fruit pulp or crushed fruit (and is less stiff than jelly as a result).
    In preserves, the fruit comes in the form of chunks in a syrup or a jam.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 10:10 PM

Ebbie's proposition about loss of distinctiveness is also good law in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:47 AM

Yes, OK, Bill ~~ BUT what word do you have then, for what we call 'jelly': a pudding or sweet course consisting of a sweet gel, diluted, put into a bowl or mould, and permitted to set? - of which, IIRC, your Jell-o is one of the branded examples? If you don't just call it jell-o, what do you call it, in distinction from the seedless mixture in a jar that can be spread on bread (which we also call "jelly", and often use also as an accompaniment to meat ~ cranberry jelly for turkey, redcurrant jelly for lamb...)?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: BrooklynJay
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 01:13 AM

Gelatine, perhaps?

Jay

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 01:24 AM

But, Jay, is that what it would be called as part of a meal? "Ma, what's for dinner?" "Chicken, and then gelatine for dessert." I don't think so somehow. Surely she would say 'jell-o', brand name or not, as the generic term for that last course dish which we call 'jelly'?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 02:31 AM

Yes, we would call it jell-o, although if it was a different brand we might mention that it's not real jello. I expect there are other brands of "jello" i.e., "a sweet course consisting of a sweet gel, diluted, put into a bowl or mould, and permitted to set". but I don't know of any.

There is a brand of UNflavored gelatin made by Knox, as I recall, not by Jell-o. It is used in a number of ways but generally not eaten by itself.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 02:45 AM

Not always by itself here either ~~ it can have fruit in it, for instance. And remember the song 'Food, Glorious Food' at the beginning of "Oliver" ~~ "Hot sausage and mustard ... Cold jelly and custard".

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:31 AM

Shops in Britain, stores in the US. Transpacific, we're getting more 'stores,' sometimes 'Outlet Stores' because we tend to English English, and you don't retail from a store. You store in a store.
Chemist's Shop/Drug Store.

Although my dictionary does give the example "We bought it from a shop in Cape Cod."

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 04:00 AM

There is one shopping phrase wich I think is uniquely American - the 'Mom and Pop' store. I suppose the only equivalent of this in the UK is the 'corner shop', to denote a small, old-fashioned shop selling an odd mixture of groceries and other commodities.

Do 'Mom and Pop' stores still exist? They're mentioned in a song by the Tractors (a band from Tulsa, OK), which is where I heard the phrase.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: autolycus
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 04:06 AM

Store and jello.


As a Brit, I really don't like the takeover of the word 'store' at the expence of 'shop'.

Someone tell me when people stop 'shopping' and start 'storng'.


Jell-o is a brand name used for that sort of pudding. We Brits shouldn't jib at that. We seem quite happy to use hoover in exactly the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 04:17 AM

I wasn't 'jibbing', Aut; just remarking that, while over there they use a brand-name generically for that sort of pudding [in the same way, as you say, that we use hoover as noun & verb for (using) a carpet-cleaner], we use the same name for it as the seedless version of the spread. Just a difference, is all.

Noteworthy, I think, that a lot of our leading makers of jams also make both (our) sorts of jelly ~~ Chivers, Robertsons, et al.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 04:24 AM

I remember when we has stores in Britain, and then they started calling them Co-ops.

For some reason I always think of jell-o as a form of explosive.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 05:06 AM

A big shop or emporium, whether of native foundation [Harrod's, Fortnum & Mason]] or a US import [Selfridge's], is, nevertheless, always a department STORE.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 05:08 AM

Dave ~~ 'jelly' here also has the slang connotation of various kinds of explosive, esp nitro-glycerine &c, from 'gelignite'.

Has 'jello' the same overtone in US?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: autolycus
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 06:04 AM

Do people going storing in a department store?


I wonder why 'department shop' wasn't used in britain.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 11:35 AM

The generic term for Jello which is not Jello is gelatin dessert. There are several brands...usually named for a store chain. For all I know, Kraft Foods makes them all under contract. (next time I go shopping, I'll look to see if any are being sold....we don't use them often)

But, if I were going to use one, I'd just say I have an off-brand Jello, since Jello has become essentially the generic term...even more than Kleenex as a tissue.

My question is: How do you in the UK differentiate what we call jams, jellies and preserves?

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:06 PM

"In jelly, the fruit comes in the form of (only) fruit juice.
    In jam, the fruit comes in the form of fruit pulp or crushed fruit (and is less stiff than jelly as a result).
    In preserves, the fruit comes in the form of chunks in a syrup or a jam. "

More or less the same in the UK, though I'd say jelly is runnier than jam, and you wouldn't put a preserve on bread. Possibly a conserve which is usually a posh jam.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:13 PM

I think conserve & preserve are both pompous terms for the ordinary man's jam, rather than distinctive terms as appears from Bill's distinction to be the case in US. Disagree that jelly is runnier than jam ~~ certainly not so in case of redcurrant jelly or mint jelly, both of which may be used as a condiment for lamb &c.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:44 PM

OK - so what's marmalade, then?

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 01:03 PM

Depends on the marmalade - I like mine chewy.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 01:28 PM

Don't put jam on bread? I do and I resent being told that it is wrong.
I have some excellent cherry jam, and I distribute the lumps (cherries) and jelly parts equally over the slice. Excellent with my eggs! (Canadian-ex-U.S.)
OK, so sometimes a little drips on my jammies (or do only English children wear them?).

Jelly is slang for gelignite, I think universally.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 01:50 PM

Marmalade a specialist kind of spread tending to have own rules.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 02:21 PM

A slight aside here: In the US we say 'cookies', not biscuits. A biscuit in the US is a specialty bread, usually round, usually served hot. However, it occurred to me this morning when I gave my dog his treat, we do say 'biscuit' for that. I haven't tasted one so I don't know if dog biscuits are sweet. Generally, cookies are.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:14 PM

In the US, 'cookies' is part of the heritage of Niew Amsterdam.

AS for jelly, if it's a spread, it's runny(ish), if it's a condiment it's a bit firmer, and if it's a dessert, it depends on how much water (or milk) you put in it.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:16 PM

Why is a cookie not called a 'bakie'?

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:29 PM

No such word in Dutch, just koekje : a biscuit, cookie (US)

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:54 PM

If yer a Newfoundlander, Cookie is da lad what cooks in da camp b'y.
An ye learn some quick dat Cookie is tird in line me zon me zon. Unless ye are boss or foreman, ye better not piss off Cookie buddy.

I got up from the construction camp table one supper to get some bread from the kitchen as it had run out on the table (Cookie was busy having a drink and a natter and I thought it was only polite) and all eyes were on Cookie... then me... then Cookie. I was impolitely told that I should never, EVER, serve myself in any way and I HAD BETTER STAY THE FUCK OUTTA THE KITCHEN.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 07:20 PM

Wasn't Cookie in 77 Sunset Strip?

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: BrooklynJay
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 10:21 PM

I thought it was Sesame Street.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 10:38 PM

The guy on "77 Sunset Strip" was Kookie with a 'K'.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 10:47 PM

Getting back from you kookie lot ~~

CAREEN
Reminded on Sloppy Language thread that it means to turn a ship over to scrape the barnacles off the bottom

but has come in US to replace our 'career', in sense of 'run in an uncontrolled fashion'.

How & when did that happen? (and also, perhaps, why?)

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 11:10 PM

I absolutely never heard 'career' used that way till a couple years ago on Mudcat.

It would bother me because 'career' is already used to describe a person's basic vocation...often lifetime. I don't know any other uses for 'careen'.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 02:38 AM

"but has come in US to replace our 'career', in sense of 'run in an uncontrolled fashion'."

I have seen it used that way but only rarely- and always followed by someone else correcting it. I like the word 'careen' and career makes no sense atall, atall.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:27 AM

Career, acc to Chambers Dict, originally meant 'rush', in the work of Spenser (C16) ~~ & hence developed the meaning of progress thru life or one's chosen occupation; also the verb to rush madly.
Chambers doesn't even [mistakenly in my view as it is widespread & catching on here as Americanisms will - see several previous threads on the topic] include this sense at careen at all, but only the turning over of a boat for purposes of cleaning or repair.

So, sorry over there Bill & Ebbie; but as you continue to call the language you speak 'English', at least have the grace and modesty to accept the judgment of one of the leading English dictionaries.

Now, to return to my question ~~ when did your word replace ours over there? & how & why? Cleaning boats, unlike moving on in a certain direction, has no connection to the rushing about connotation at all that I can see. Don't your dictionaries give that meaning of careen also?: I remember it occurs in Treasure Island, which I believe is a book widely read over there.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:30 AM

Oxford English Dictionary (1993 edition) under 'careen' has as meaning 4:

v.i. Rush headling, hurtle unsteadily. N. Amer. E20.


(fourth attempt to post this, so apologies if it appears more than once)

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:47 AM

Thanks Topsie. That meaning is not in my OED, the previous one of 1971; & note that your later one specifies the usage as purely N American. So my point, & my questions, hold.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:56 AM

Checking the other dictionary I have here to hand on my desk, Collins, 2000 edition, I find it includes only the boat-turning meaning at 'careen', but the 'headlong rush' among the several meanings of 'career', all of which imply onward movement of some kind - incl the progress thru life or job.

So, please, you guys stop being so insular, and try to find out from your dicts the answers to my questions.

~M~

luvyaz all justasame

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: autolycus
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:59 AM

Marmalade is 'jam' made from oranges.

I'm amazed that anyone thinks it's not ok to spread jam on bread.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:14 AM

I was going to say that the earliest example I know of 'careen' meaning to rush headlong was in james Taylor's "Carolina", but on reflection it could be either meaning - possibly he meant the original, and it got misinterpreted, and the unintentional malapropism became widespread?

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:40 AM

That sounds a most interesting suggestion, Dave. A work entirely unknown to me. Can you give the reference, or link to it?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 05:23 AM

I googled the Jas Taylor lyric ~~ can't find 'careen' in it anywhere, only the girl's name 'Karen'.

And the US use of 'careen' is, I am sure, older than his work.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Arnie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 05:44 AM

auto - marmalade can also be made from limes, which is my favourite! Well, next to Marmite that is. I'm usually ok with understanding Americanisms, having spent at least a fortnight on holiday there - had to get back home for a decent curry. However, I've recently got into reading novels by James Lee Burke and most are set in and around New Orleans. He uses words and phrases that are completely unknown to me and I just have to accept that I don't know what he is on about sometimes. I've worked out what a 'gunbull' is from the context but there are some offerings that I suspect even Americans from other parts of the US would struggle to interpret. If I had my Kindle to hand I'd give some other examples - in fact it now occurs to me that with the assistance of Mudcat I may be able to call on our US friends to do some intepreting when I get stuck!

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:50 AM

My mistake - it was 'Something in the way she moves'. Posted straight after coming in from the pub. Her's a link to the lyrics:

Something In The Way She Moves by James Taylor

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 08:36 AM

My American Webster's dictionary (1988) has both words. Careen has both the nautical meaning (first) and "lurch from side to side". Career has "profession" as the noun meaning and "rush wildly" when used as a verb.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 08:44 AM

100