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BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
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Subject: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Mar 08 - 08:23 AM Point to discuss- Could a Clinton/Obama ticket win ( anywhere besides here in Mudcat) against a McCain/Lieberman ticket in the general election? IMO, no- Demonstrating inclusion would seem to wipe out the (small) lead that Obama has over McCain. Clinton would bring out the more conservative voters that might sit out a McCain vs Obama race. WHat do you want to bet that THIS is what the Dems will decide on, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory again? |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: MarkS Date: 21 Mar 08 - 08:33 AM A Clinton/Obama ticket could win, but the likelyhood of a reconsiliation between them is remote. Latest story I have heard floated around is that there will be a deadlocked convention, with Al Gore emerging as the Democratic candidate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Mar 08 - 08:40 AM McCain Vs. Gore? McCain wins that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Big Mick Date: 21 Mar 08 - 08:55 AM Not a chance that McCain could beat Gore. McCain has so many negatives that are not really being put out, that will come out in the campaign. But my old boss, Al Gore, is not interested in running. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Donuel Date: 21 Mar 08 - 08:58 AM McoCaine / Powell I wonder if Colin is still interested. Mac Cane / Rice & beans. Mc Cain / Cheney Rove will sort it out, don't you worry. Diebod will do the rest of the heavy lifting as long as they don't release the election results a week early. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Bobert Date: 21 Mar 08 - 09:02 AM I don't think McWar can win regardless of who he picks... He has nothing to offer the country other than policies that clearly aren't working... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Amos Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:00 AM Ya know, I wonder if Colin Powell wouold be interested in backing Obama as Veep? Wouldn't that be a hoot? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Bobert Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:26 AM Not that far fetched, Amos... I heard a Powell interview recently where he said he was "undecided"... Given that McWar had allready sewn up the Repb nomination that leads me to bwlieve that Powell is leaning toward either Clinton or Obama... But Powell also said that he and Obama had had "discussions" on foreiegn policies amd added that he fasvored Obama's pledge to talk with adversaries... The way I read it is that Powell is a closet Obama-ite,,, I also have wondered if Powell might serve in an Obama cabinat as Secretary of State... Heck, he allready knows the job, the various player and under a visionary president might do wonders in that position... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Amos Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:32 AM WHat a great idea. Obviously that Vicodin is good for you.... :D A |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: artbrooks Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:43 AM McCain/Lieberman is a non-starter. Lieberman, for all his "backing of the war" is still very liberal. McCain needs someone from the right wing of the party to bring in the conservatives and evangelicals since, for all his "backing of the war", he is seen by them as very center-left. Obama/Powell is an interesting thought but, I'm sorry to say, probably too "black". How about Obama/(Gen. Wesley)Clark? |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Barry Finn Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:50 AM Lieberman,,,,,,,,,,,,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,He,He,He,He couldn't hold his own in his own state & he can't even figure out if he a Dem, Repub or an Indie much less a pro or con hawk or dove. He stands in a puddle of his own piss. NO WAY, he's on the way out, he just can't find the back door yet. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:53 AM McCain/Steele? Barry, "He couldn't hold his own in his own state " He DID win, as an independent. HE BEAT the Dem. Seems like the party tried to dump him and the PEOPLE decided he should stay. Maybe it is the Dem. Party that is on the way out... |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Amos Date: 21 Mar 08 - 11:04 AM No, I think McCain / Lieberman is a great slate for the righties. If they can't get behind re-integration of the nation, Obama's unification theme, they can at least field a dramatically divisive candidacy. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: heric Date: 21 Mar 08 - 11:09 AM A McCain nation or an Obama nation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Mar 08 - 11:12 AM IMO, the McCain/Lieberman ticket would sweep the conservatives- after all, they would just be acting like the Dems in the last election and voting AGAINST the other party's candidate. In that case, it does not even matter if you agree with YOUR candidate. But thinking people would have to wonder who is more inclusive- a candidate that talks about bringing people together, or one that runs with someone of a different political bent. It does depend on WHO Obama picks as VP- He could get a strong win out of one of the more "liberal" Republicans. I just don't see that happening, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Barry Finn Date: 21 Mar 08 - 11:12 AM Soon enough when it comes down to the 2 final running mates & their opposition (MaCain & who ever) it won't matter who he has by his side. The fight is with whose gonna be the democratic leader, there will be no republican leader & no republican majority either. I sense that when the smoke clears the nation will, by November, be so sick & choked from what's happened to this country that the republicans may not see the light of day for at least the next 16 years. We have slowly been falling down the lee side of the trash heap for the past 8 yrs & now in last gasp of this administration's 6 months the slow fall is becoming a landslide that won't stop until it rests at the doors of of the DC Shithouse & the cleanup & followup that follows on from what's been a tragic slip since the Rag-on/Bush yrs will take it's toll on the American con-slience. We will all pay dearly but we'll be the better for it all in the end, it's just that the costs weren't needed, it's to bad we can't learn by/from the mistakes of others. Bush may, & rightfully so, die by suicide once he fails from office come the new year. He'll get a clear picture of what his legacy will look like & his spineless backbone will not be able to stand the shock of it all & he will shatter & shit himself (not necessarily in that order) & wander off to rid himself of the world that hates him or rid himself of the world he seems to hate. He's one spiecies that I gladly bid farewell to. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Mar 08 - 11:14 AM Come on, Barry- tell us what you really think. Stop holding back like that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Bobert Date: 21 Mar 08 - 11:40 AM McWar/Lieberman??? How do you spell "grumpy old men"??? B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 21 Mar 08 - 12:58 PM Folks. McCain/Lieberman IS going to happen. There is a neighbor on my block who is a multi millionaire real estate magnate. He is a close personal friend of Lieberman and has hosted a fundraiser for him in his home during his last senatorial campaign. I saw him in synagogue last week and he told me that the deal was made for Lieberman to be VP on the ticket before he started campaigning for McCain in Florida. As a practicing Orthodox Jew, Lieberman will be able to win over the right wing conservatives because his views on morality and family values coincide with theirs. Also, Orthodox Jews will not accept any ticket with Obama on it, even if Hillary is at the top. They see him as an enemy and a danger to the state of Israel because of his association with the arch anti-semite, Rev.Jeremiah Wright and his strong Muslim ties. Orthodox Rabbis have already been mobilizing their congregations against Obama's candidacy. They will even go so far as to proclaim a day of public fasting and prayer should Obama in fact be the Democratic nominee. SOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: number 6 Date: 21 Mar 08 - 01:08 PM McCain/? .... though I certainly don't endorse McCain's politiks I do feel we should not undermine the McCain/Cheney/Bush right wing machine ... I think there are a lot more right wingers out there than we give credit for ... the drums will beat loud and louder .... this machine will go to all ends to make sure they retain the throne. scarry. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: TIA Date: 21 Mar 08 - 01:11 PM "...strong Muslim ties..." Please explain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Mar 08 - 01:16 PM Bobert "How do you spell "grumpy old men"???" B O B E R T And if you keep saying McWar, I'll insist on Oh Bomb Ah - he did say he would go back into Iraq when Al Quida causes trouble there... But then I guess you think calling someone names iss better than actually trying to do anything positive ( one of the points I have to give Obama- he does NOT act like a number of his supporters here.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Barry Finn Date: 21 Mar 08 - 01:27 PM TIA, I think they mean to say that they paint both with the same "Black Brush". How extreme of them. Another religion not worth hearing from, if that's their case. I for one well be pleased to see a McCain/Lieberman ticket. With all the right wing/extremeists/religons getting into the show & them shoving their beliefs down the throats of the majority of Americans I think that they'll soon wear out their welcomes & the Americam public will consider the religious baggage a turn off. I may be way off in my timing for this but I eventually see the church & state becoming unlikely bedfellows, being in the same company with them is like being in the same bedroom as a couple ready for a nasty divorce. Their beliefs are just that, they should not become policies. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Mar 08 - 01:29 PM " Their beliefs are just that, they should not become policies." Gee, that is what many conservatives keep saying about liberals... |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Mar 08 - 02:15 PM An odd use of "beliefs". Your "beliefs" are the things you believe in, and what kind of policies are they if you don't believe in them? "Vote for me. I can guarantee that I don't believe in any of the things I say, on principle." True enough for many politicians that would be the honest truth, including some who speak most fervently about issues of "morality". |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Mar 08 - 02:21 PM ""Vote for me. I can guarantee that I don't believe in any of the things I say, on principle." True enough for many politicians that would be the honest truth, including some who speak most fervently about issues of "morality". " True of ALL politicians - at least the ones who get elected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Amos Date: 21 Mar 08 - 02:22 PM Well, you can believe in the wrongness of abortion, McGrath, but realize that making a policy out of it to bind others to that belief is politically an unwise thing to do. Having differing beliefs but still finding a way to manage the commons is the whole point of good political process (of which we have a dearth). A |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Amos Date: 21 Mar 08 - 02:40 PM My sense is that if as Rabbi Sol says Lieberman is slated to run with McCain, that the Democratic campaign is doomed to succeed. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: GUEST,heric Date: 21 Mar 08 - 02:45 PM Rabbi Sol: Note: According to wikipedia (without a cited reference) the Anti-Defamation League reports that it has no record of anti-Semitic commentary from Dr. Wright. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Mar 08 - 02:48 PM My sense is that the Democrats will talk themselves out of the WhiteHouse. With maybe 35% liberal ( vote Dem no matter who runs) and 30% conservative ( vote Rep no matter who runs), the deciding factor is the 35% or so in the middle. They will vote what they perceive as their iown interests- what they think will make them better off. IMO, a larger number of them will see that a ticket with a (liberal) conservative AND a (conservative) liberal will seem much better than one with two liberal liberals- as the Dems seem likely to run. Obama has charisma and eloquence - but his basic philosophy may be too liberal for the Center. We shall see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Amos Date: 21 Mar 08 - 03:02 PM Gee-- his basic philosophy was good enough for Jefferson, Adams, Paine et al. Can't see why the mainstream should object to that. I expect when it comes down to the wire, there will be surprising slide over to our ancient liberal traditions based on human respect and the hope of pursuing happiness, rather than the more recent conservative traditions of debt, fear, and invasion of privacy. Just my guess, though. There is a certain appeal to exporting the idea of genuine, intelligent democracy finding a path to positive change in a series of win-win steps, as contrasted with the notion of exporting extraordinary rendition torturees, military power, corrupt contractors with unlicensed firearms, and McDonald's franchises to the world. But, maybe that's just me. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Mar 08 - 03:10 PM Just you. Should I now define the principles of what YOU stand for, since you so kindly have informed me what I think? It seems to me that the strong point that Obama brings is to try and unite- and the tack you are taking is one designed to divide. As long as you insist that those who disagree with you are evil and only you have the best interests of the nation in mind, you are one of those that Obama is complaining about. When you allow that it is permissable to have different opinions as to HOW to achieve the desired goal, and then talk about it ( rather than insist YOU have been told from high the only way(how Bush-like you seem!) )THEN you might be able to persuade me that a Democratic admisnistration might not be a disaster for the nation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Bobert Date: 21 Mar 08 - 06:37 PM bb, McWar, McWar, McWar or whoule you prefer... McEndlesswar, McEndlesswar, McEndlesswar??? What you call Obama is your business... I'll continue calling it the way I see it... If you think that Obama's position that if the Pakistani governemnt wouldn't act against known terrorist that we should makes Obama a monster then have it it... Lotta folks, even a lot of Bushites, would agree with Obama... Unless, of course, they knew what Obame said, which is doubtfull... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Amos Date: 21 Mar 08 - 07:08 PM Bruce: I don't think it is just me; but I have frequently acknowledged the things about your perspective that seemed reasoned, to me. I know my list of alternatives was slanted, but I haven't seen any reason to think those things would change under a mcCain administration, anymore than Bush was willing to do anyting but repeat his delusions about his own rightnerss in every step of going to war, spending a trillion dollars, and sending a thousand soldiers to death. The problem I have with all that is that he keeps insisting it was justified. Yet no concrete persuasive argument has been made for it; he keeps falling back on the unspoken concept that it was the clever thing to do. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Bobert Date: 21 Mar 08 - 07:25 PM Einstein said that "a problem cannot be solved with the same consciousness that created it"... I rest my case when it come to McWar... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Bill D Date: 21 Mar 08 - 07:45 PM "Orthodox Jews will not accept any ticket with Obama on it, even if Hillary is at the top. They see him as an enemy and a danger to the state of Israel because of his association with the arch anti-semite, Rev.Jeremiah Wright and his strong Muslim ties." Talk about ridiculous paranoia! I am SO tired of single-issue political stances! So, as long as a candidate 'promises' to favor Israel, anyone will do? Even if their other issues are lame, stupid and destructive? Obama is the candidate...not an old preacher! |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Bobert Date: 21 Mar 08 - 09:12 PM Agree, Bill, agree... Too many folkls out there tellin' other folks how they6 are supposed to vote... Problem is that Obama ain't all that vulnerable to this strategy of folks tellin' other folks what they are supposed to think because they are white, yellow, Jewish, left-handed, blue-eyed, or whatevr divisive political crap/jargon that these racists are coming up with to convince folks that's Obama is the devil hisself... What a joke... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:32 PM LOLOL Obama is so anti-Israel, he got a score of negative 2 (that's less than zero, folks) from the U.S. Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation... 2005-2006 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to U.S. Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation's position, Senator Obama received a rating of -2. http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=9490&type=category&category=32&go.x=10&go.y=10 LOLOLOLOL... |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:29 PM >>>Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Rabbi-Sol - PM Date: 21 Mar 08 - 12:58 PM Folks. McCain/Lieberman IS going to happen. There is a neighbor on my block who is a multi millionaire real estate magnate. He is a close personal friend of Lieberman and has hosted a fundraiser for him in his home during his last senatorial campaign. I saw him in synagogue last week and he told me that the deal was made for Lieberman to be VP on the ticket before he started campaigning for McCain in Florida. As a practicing Orthodox Jew, Lieberman will be able to win over the right wing conservatives because his views on morality and family values coincide with theirs. Also, Orthodox Jews will not accept any ticket with Obama on it, even if Hillary is at the top. They see him as an enemy and a danger to the state of Israel because of his association with the arch anti-semite, Rev.Jeremiah Wright and his strong Muslim ties. Orthodox Rabbis have already been mobilizing their congregations against Obama's candidacy. They will even go so far as to proclaim a day of public fasting and prayer should Obama in fact be the Democratic nominee. SOL<<< Rabbi, The above post is very disturbing to me. Do you have an proof that Rev Wright is an "arch anti-semite" And what do you mean by that? What is wrong with "Strong Muslim ties?" Are you saying that it is somehow evil to simply be Muslim? Also do you realize that Lieberman would bring very little support to the ticket that McCain does not have on his own. McCain can get one of those little first debate Bush boxes on his back to whisper corrections in his ear rather than having Lieberman do so in such a public and embarrassing manner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Amos Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:33 PM I think an Obama/Clinton ticket would be a serious error on the Dems part; and I do not believe they are much interested in snatching defeat out of anywhere. That phrase is another one of those slanted cynicisms that says so much about the world-view of those who use it. What they are interested in is building a better nation; an interest I share. McCain certainly will not do it, and Hillary would not do it as well as Obama. The most effective thing Obama could do in selecting a running mate is recruit Colin Powell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: artbrooks Date: 22 Mar 08 - 02:14 PM How could a score of -2 from the U.S. Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation be considered as denoting an anti-Israel position? Unless, that is, one considers a pull-out from all of the occupied territories as being pro-Israel. As desirable as that might be, and I'd personally put some conditions on that, I rather doubt that the Israeli government or most Israeli citizens would agree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Mar 08 - 02:24 PM Artbrooks. That was Carol's point I think. That Rabbi-Sol's assertion that Obama is an anti-semite is absurd. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 08 - 02:32 PM Irony, my dear artbrooks, irony. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Amos Date: 22 Mar 08 - 02:35 PM Hillary's exagerrations discussed in WaPo. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: GUEST,Texas Guest Date: 22 Mar 08 - 05:27 PM Well, IMHO, the Obama/Clinton, or Clinton/Obama ticket will become a reality before this thing irons out. The bottom line here is that it doesn't really matter whether or not they like each other; what really matters is: the desires of the leaders of the Democratic Party. It appears that neither candidate will have enough committed delegates to "win" the nomination; therefore, it will be worked out behind closed doors. Again, IMHO, if Obama is "perceived" to be the front-runner and does not get the nomination - race relations in America will be set back big time, or, "BIG TIME." I'm sure the DNC does not want that to go down; but, they don't want to do anything that will leave one half of the democratic voters at home because their candidate didn't get the nomination - there are a lot of folks out there carrying that feeling. Finally, IMHO, Jefferson and Adams are probably rolling over in their graves while Franklin is most likely laughing his ass off with a nod of admiration for this republic to have lasted as long as it has. Cheers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Mar 08 - 07:10 PM I think that Obama Lieberman is more likely than Obama/Clinton. Which is to say that both are as likely as Clinton/Snowball from Hell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: dick greenhaus Date: 22 Mar 08 - 11:22 PM I think we need a McCain/Lieberman ticket. Just think, if they ran against Obama/Clinton we'd have a Jew, a woman, a black and a somewhat doddering Catholic---bigots would go crazy trying to figure out who not to vote for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 23 Mar 08 - 12:08 AM Jack, Go to the Jewish Press website (www.thejewishpress.com) and read this week's leading editorial "The Candidate and The Cleric". Then go to Jason Maoz' column "Obama Unmasked". And yes, as long as my fellow Jews in Israel are getting rockets rained down on their heads that originate from Hamas contolled Gaza, and as long as 9 innocent students are being massacared at Yeshiva Merkaz in Jerusalem by an Arab terrorist, I and my fellow Orthodox Jews will continue to be one issue voters when judging candidates. And tell me folks "Why is it politically incorrect to mention Obama's ineffable middle name "HUSSEIN"? I am sorry that I could not get back to this thread sooner but I do have a life besides Mudcat. In addition to celebrating the Purim holiday yesterday I am also involved in my new carreer as a promoter of folk and bluegrass concerts. As such, I get on the average of 5 submissions a week from various performers all around the globe and I do try to get back to all of them in a timely manner. SOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Barry Finn Date: 23 Mar 08 - 12:19 AM Not only should O'Bummer want US out of Iraq, he should see that we withdraw from Israel too. Another front that doesn't need our backing our our money. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama? From: Amos Date: 23 Mar 08 - 12:22 AM Rabbi Sol: If you are in the camp that says that because of his name, he must support Arab extremists, you are beyond all reason, sir. A |
