BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 12:59 PM

My latest post in this blog went up last night: A-Begging We Will Go: accusation of faking disability for ill-gotten "benefits"

(About the seventeenth century broadside ballad, attributed to Richard Brome)

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 06:15 PM

Interesting ideas and conclusion. BTW CapriUni, I left a suggestion of a tale you could cover- two.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 07:29 PM

Morwen--

I just saw those suggestions (I was away to New York State [from Virginia] from the 25th-28th).

Your link to the Conomar and Triphine story came back with a 404 error message, so I'll have to hunt down a different link, and read the story for myself before I make a judgement on it. But right now, I am leery of equating evil with disability-- or even the modern psychological diagnosis of psychopathy with evil, because that just reinforces the ancient bigotry against the disabled, without really shedding light on what the fear actually is.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 08:13 PM

OK, what about Perrault's Bluebeard? That could tie in with your post on Bertha Broadfoot. TV Tropes calls his famous beard a "Red Right Hand"- "deformity/distinctive physical feature as a sign of evil" like Captain Hook. I think psychopathy could count as a mental illness.Red Right Hand- TV Tropes . That's the definition of the term- a feature meant to tell a villain from a hero.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 08:25 PM

BTW, I don't know myself whether psychopathy could count as a disability as such. I mean I think it plausibly could count as a mental illness, but I don't know whether you have to be aware that you're disabled before you're seen by those around you as disabled. I think if I was a psychopath, would I be aware that I was? Probably not. But I definitely have cerebral palsy and problems with social skills that I'm aware of. And I personally think Bluebeard counts. This may seem bizarre, but if you're open to title suggestions and you want to do on a post on Bluebeard, you could call it: "Bluebeard: disability and fears about marriage" or something similar.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 08:54 PM

EDIT; that "on" shouldn't be there.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:00 PM

There's also the Grimms' "Our Lady's Child" where the titular character is a woodcutter's daughter raised by the Virgin Mary, and is made mute for looking inside a room where the Trinity is hidden. That could be another one about disability as a punishment for sin; in order to be "cured", the person must confess their sin, and muteness is a punishment for sin.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:14 PM

BTW, don't know if this helps, but in several tellings of "Conomor and Triphine", Conomor/Comor/Comorre/Cunmar the Accursed is depicted as a giant.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 04:28 PM

Morwen--

Thanks for the reminder about Mary's Child; now that we're getting into the winter months (here in my Northern Hemisphere), I'm thinking it's time to up the pace of my posting, since winter evenings tend to bring up feelings that we should be telling stories, and a tale centered on the Virgin would fit well for the "Christmas Season."

Speaking of which, today, I did my bit to participate in Ye Grand Olde Yuletide Tradition of invoking Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol, here: Tiny Tim and the Role of the Disabled as Object Lessons.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 06:15 PM

BTW, CapriUni, I read that (very interesting) post and thought of this; as you know, Dickens' portrayal of Tiny Tim was considered very enlightened for its time, as most able-bodied people had rarely come across any positive portrayals of disabled people. So yes, he's a very sentimental and problematic character in the 21st century, but at the time, his portrayal was groundbreaking. Speaking of Dickens-- at the moment I'm working on a steampunk (gritty science fiction genre set in the Victorian period or a fictional version of it) reworking of Oliver Twist (I'm leaving aside the HOND one for a while), and have been wondering about the question; when writing something in a setting where social attitudes to the disabled are different and you're trying to portray those attitudes accurately, are you automatically reinforcing some people's attitudes?

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 06:55 PM

BTW, Mary's Child, or Our Lady's Child , always made me uncomfortable due to the fact that (and not to offend any Catholics; if you're offended I apologise) the Virgin Mary ties down the girl's tongue for looking inside a room where the Trinity is hidden . Why did she specifically forbid the girl to enter it? What is it about the Trinity that looking at it is forbidden? And the other thing; didn't she think for a minute that telling the girl to not look inside would ensure that she did look inside? Also, what's the purpose of this story?

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 05:09 AM

Refresh

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 06:43 PM

There's also an English (? Not sure of it. have to look that up) story called "The Seven Ravens"- similar to "The Six Swans". The father is a peasant, and the girl, as well as staying silent "for as many years as [she} has brothers', cuts off one off her fingers to open a door, paying it in blood. (Her seven brothers are hiding in a robber's den.)

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 06:53 PM

German: The Brothers Grimm.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 08:33 PM

Thanks 999! I thought it was English, because all the books that I've read which mention ravens are set in England.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 08:42 PM

Wiki on "Seven Ravens" says that the Grimms changed it to seven brothers/ravens. "In the original [German] oral version" (probably the one that the Grimms collected) "there were three ravens". So the Grimms made the heroine's silence period longer; the condition is always that the heroine stay silent for as many years as she has brothers. Probably this was done to create suspense? By lengthening the silence period, the reader can wait to see how long she will comply with it. Something like that. There is also a Greek version of the same story.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 08:59 PM

I remember that ravens tale (and yes, it's Grimms/German); as I recall, the heroine had to cut off one of her fingers in order to use it as a key to unlock the prison in which the ravens were being held.


As for Ravens in German / Norse mythology, Odin (ruler of the Norse Aesir gods) had two ravens, which flew around the Earth and reported back to him in the evenings. Their names were (via English translation): "Thought" and "Memory," and Odin was always afraid that they'd fly off one day and never return.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 04:03 PM

(This is a question that's been in my head the last couple of weeks, and I started posting about it in my personal journal-community last night. Then, I figured that some of the Mudcatters around here might have some experience, and ideas, about this.)


On Sunday, November 27th, I was having lunch with my long time friend and writing mentor, Irene O'Garden, who founded The Art Garden, and she asked me what writing, other than The Art Garden, that I've been doing. So I started talking about Plato's Nightmare / Aesop's Dream.

And another guest there, Scott Laughead (edited to add: Be advised-- his site has a bright, busy, high-contrast background), got really excited by the idea of what I was doing, and said that I should find a partner, and apply for a grant to support my work on this, because it's important (And that getting a partner would make it easier to get a grant, because it would show potential donors that this is more than just a pet peeve or private pipe dream or fantasy).

I agree that it's important; I truly believe that participating in storytelling (in whatever medium, and whether as teller or audience) is central to our humanity, and that the stories we tell have a profound impact on the realities we bring about. And yes, noticing that the Experience of Disability can be found in folklore (and literature) is one way to acknowledge that Disability is part of human experience. Period. And it's about time we got over the idea that the Disabled are always rare exceptions, and this whole, new "politically correct" thing that we have to change everything for, out of the blue, because some do-gooder got a bee in her bonnet...

And seriously? even the idea that someone might give me money to do something I've loved ever since I can remember loving stuff is a downright heady and intoxicating idea.

But --

Bwah?

Turning Plato's Nightmare / Aesop's Dream into something that would even make sense to use grant money would mean turning it into some form that engages the Capital P "Public," in some way (and that makes the idea very Scary [Capital S]). And right now, it's very much a private, editorial, thing: just my private opinions, based on my own experience (very real and valid, but also limited).

How do I change PNAD from a private noun into a public verb, so to speak?

I'm tickled by the idea, but I'm also stumped.

Any suggestions?

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Melissa
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 06:22 PM

That's an exciting idea!

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 10:00 PM

CapriUni, do you consider The Seven Ravens to be a tale about disability? Losing a finger certainly counts to me

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 05:59 PM

Melissa -- yes, it is!

Morwen, I think so, too. I'll have to reread the story (haven't read it in many years) before I come to any conclusion about the sort of disability experience it reflects, though...

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 10:14 PM

My latest post is up:


Mary's Child: The Privilege of Speech and Human Identity

Okay, which story should I do next, right before Christmas -- The Steadfast Tin Soldier (The soldier is Special, 'cause he only has One Leg, and he's the Bravest of All), or The Ugly Duckling (because of how it frames Difference Within the Family, and how it's used to "comfort" children who are going through illness and/or disability: "But if you're brave, and soldier through, you will Grow Out Of It, and be handsome and admired." Also, I think it was the trope source for "Rudolph, the Red-nosed Reindeer," but that latter one is outside the scope of my blog)?

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 08:51 PM

And now, I have, in fact, posted my piece on The Steadfast Tin Soldier (The disabled would be happiest 'with their own kind')

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 07:21 PM

Finally -- I've gotten a new post up: The Goose-Girl at the Well (Feelings of Distrust and Duty toward the Elderly and Disabled)

I meant for this to be a February post, but instead, February passed without a single blog entry. This is my failing.

I also wanted to write up my own retelling, because I love the story enough to want to get inside it like that. But every time I sat down to translate Google auto-'bot translation into Actual English, my energy and attention would flag every three sentences, or so. So I ended up just reposting translation from a Good Victorian Lady, instead.

If I had done that to start with, it would have been a February post.

BTW, my blog will be a year old on April 24...

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 18 May 12 - 05:59 PM

OOh! I forgot to update this thread with my latest postings.

Here's the entry for April: The Pied Piper of Hamlin -- the Children Left Behind

And May: "But these things are Monsters" -- The Etymologiae of Saint Isidore

(This second one is my annual contribution to Blogging Against Disablism Day)

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 18 May 12 - 10:07 PM

Great to see you updating your blog, Capri.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 06:54 PM

Another one I thought of was Tolkien's story, The Children of Hurin, which dates back to 1910, and is the source of my username. Turin has a close friend called Sador, who he nicknames Labadal ("Hopfoot") because Sador lost a foot while carving osmehting.

Also; the Norse god Odin has only one eye.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 06:56 PM

*something*.